Kobe Discussion: shark swimming / #prayforthesharks (664)

last stand wrote:

King of Clutch wrote:

last stand wrote:I didn't bring Lebron into the thread. Lebron has proven to be a better all around player his whole career. Kobe in his youth was a better scorer than Lebron will ever be, and if I was starting a franchise and I had a 23 year old version of both available I'd take Kobe.

But Lebron is a better passer, rebounder, defender(now), finisher and he's still a hell of a scorer

Aka better all around player

Lebron is NOT a better passer. He just plays the game with that mentality of pass first. And you see what kobe can do when he plays with that mentality as well. Better rebounder I can take, but he is about 2-3 inches taller than bryant. Don't even need to mention scoring. Defense, yes 28 lbj is better than 34 bryant. I would say kobe is the better all around, most complete player. Best post game in the LEAGUE (Yes, kobe is at the top, even when including centers. Stats prove this. For a 6'6" guard. Let that sink in for a moment.), has hook shots, up and unders, deadly fadeaways over both shoulders, floaters, and every other shot in the book. Great passer, as he's proven he can be if he just chooses to be, good rebounder, great defender more so in his prime as to be expected, coupled with being the greatest scorer to play basketball. Which makes all of this even more impressive. Lbj is a PHENOMINAL athlete, who has great passing skills. Not much more, IMO.

You do know who had the leagues statistical best post game last season right?
You do know who was in the running for DPOY last year and arguably should have won the award?
You do know that neither Kobe or Lebron really have the best post game despite what stats say or said? I'd still take tim Duncan in the post over either guy.

People who don't watch Lebron enough revert to the phenomenal athlete excuse which is a cop out, there are better athletes in the NBA than Lebron (now not before when Lebron was younger). Yet I don't see anyone putting up anything close to his statistics. Nor do I see anyone matching his historical efficiency.

27ppg 8rpg 7apg shooting 55% and 40% from 3, oh with under 3 TOs a game. Kobe's my favorite player of all time, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend he's better than everyone at everything. I swear if Kobe shot 95% free throws for 5 games people would claim he's a better free throw shooter than nash

Kobe is the best post player in the league. Thats a fact. He has more points per possession in the post than anyone else. Durant is second, and Duncan is 3rd. Lbj is past 10. Griffin was higher on the list than him. So I don't know where you're getting your stats from. Just because you have LP doesn't mean much, lol. Eyes can be very deceiving. And I watch the heat plenty, which is why I question your overall basketball knowledge. "Not the best athlete in the league anymore"??? lol what the heck are you doing when you "watch the heat"?Name me another player who is more athletic than lebron.

Look i'm not saying lbj isn't a great player. Lbj has found that perfect balance of scoring and assisting. That I will give him. But as far as doing one thing with excellence. I don't think he's better than kobe in any repect, excluding rebounding. Those 8rebs per game is phenomenal, 1 over his average. Would be slightly more impressive of he wasn't playing pf alongside a center who's averaging the lowest rebounds in his career at 7.2. I guess its just what people value. I'll always take Tim Duncan over guys like Blake Griffin, chris paul and rondo over guys like westbrook and rose, KD and Kobe over guys like lebron and wade. Thats just me. But they're all still amazing players.

last stand wrote:He said Kobe is a better all around player because of these past 5 games, I said its ridiculous to make that assumption or else a guy like rondo can make the claim as well. Simple

No, he didn't. You built an argument that you wanted him to be putting forward. You filled in the details, attacked the argument, and that was that. But that's not what he said. I took him to be doing something rather different.

People point to numbers in saying that LeBron is a better player of this or that sort than Kobe.
Kobe typically plays a certain way; so his scoring numbers are better, but other numbers are not as high.
Kobe has clearly changed the way he's playing, and so far the number suggest that he's doing it at an incredible level. The numbers are, so far, better all-around than James's (pts,ast,reb at least).

In posting HIS numbers, Rondo didn't change his style of play at all, so Rondo is irrelevant. You brought in Rondo; he didn't. It was your assumption that Rondo mattered.

So while this five game stretch IS evidence that Kobe can do something compared to LeBron, the 14 games that Rondo posted certain numbers are not evidence of anything related to this debate.

That's why I said, "What on earth are you talking about?" and you response, "Simple," is simply misguided.

You'd take Tim Duncan over Kobe Bryant in the post? Despite what the numbers suggest? That's surely interesting, but it says something about you (you make bad decisions) rather than about the players (who has the best post game).

King of Clutch wrote:

last stand wrote:

King of Clutch wrote:

last stand wrote:I didn't bring Lebron into the thread. Lebron has proven to be a better all around player his whole career. Kobe in his youth was a better scorer than Lebron will ever be, and if I was starting a franchise and I had a 23 year old version of both available I'd take Kobe.

But Lebron is a better passer, rebounder, defender(now), finisher and he's still a hell of a scorer

Aka better all around player

Lebron is NOT a better passer. He just plays the game with that mentality of pass first. And you see what kobe can do when he plays with that mentality as well. Better rebounder I can take, but he is about 2-3 inches taller than bryant. Don't even need to mention scoring. Defense, yes 28 lbj is better than 34 bryant. I would say kobe is the better all around, most complete player. Best post game in the LEAGUE (Yes, kobe is at the top, even when including centers. Stats prove this. For a 6'6" guard. Let that sink in for a moment.), has hook shots, up and unders, deadly fadeaways over both shoulders, floaters, and every other shot in the book. Great passer, as he's proven he can be if he just chooses to be, good rebounder, great defender more so in his prime as to be expected, coupled with being the greatest scorer to play basketball. Which makes all of this even more impressive. Lbj is a PHENOMINAL athlete, who has great passing skills. Not much more, IMO.

You do know who had the leagues statistical best post game last season right?
You do know who was in the running for DPOY last year and arguably should have won the award?
You do know that neither Kobe or Lebron really have the best post game despite what stats say or said? I'd still take tim Duncan in the post over either guy.

People who don't watch Lebron enough revert to the phenomenal athlete excuse which is a cop out, there are better athletes in the NBA than Lebron (now not before when Lebron was younger). Yet I don't see anyone putting up anything close to his statistics. Nor do I see anyone matching his historical efficiency.

27ppg 8rpg 7apg shooting 55% and 40% from 3, oh with under 3 TOs a game. Kobe's my favorite player of all time, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend he's better than everyone at everything. I swear if Kobe shot 95% free throws for 5 games people would claim he's a better free throw shooter than nash

Kobe is the best post player in the league. Thats a fact. He has more points per possession in the post than anyone else. Durant is second, and Duncan is 3rd. Lbj is past 10. Griffin was higher on the list than him. So I don't know where you're getting your stats from. Just because you have LP doesn't mean much, lol. Eyes can be very deceiving. And I watch the heat plenty, which is why I question your overall basketball knowledge. "Not the best athlete in the league anymore"??? lol what the heck are you doing when you "watch the heat"?Name me another player who is more athletic than lebron.

Look i'm not saying lbj isn't a great player. Lbj has found that perfect balance of scoring and assisting. That I will give him. But as far as doing one thing with excellence. I don't think he's better than kobe in any repect, excluding rebounding. Those 8rebs per game is phenomenal, 1 over his average. Would be slightly more impressive of he wasn't playing pf alongside a center who's averaging the lowest rebounds in his career at 7.2. I guess its just what people value. I'll always take Tim Duncan over guys like Blake Griffin, chris paul and rondo over guys like westbrook and rose, KD and Kobe over guys like lebron and wade. Thats just me. But they're all still amazing players.

you do know that lebron james was the most efficient post scorer last season right, posting up 15% of the time, shooting 65% from the post.

and no he's not the best athlete, though athlete is a subjective opinion, not to mention that wouldn't have any thing to do with my basketball knowledge as it would only comment on my knowledge about athleticism. and if your wondering who i think is more athletic, griffin would be one, and westbrook the other. lebron is in the top 5 though. he's slowed down a bit from his peak athleticism of 24 years old.

and again what statistical proof is there that kobe is a better all around player. so over this 5 game span kobe is averaging 9 less points, and 4 more assists than lebron. while lebron shoots a far better percentage from everywhere but the FT line. and those are season averages not a 5 game average.

how exactly is kobe more all around. one of these guys since we are going season vs. 5 games is scoring at an elite level, all time efficiency and still dishing out assists and rebounding, while the other is passing more, rebounding the same, but scoring much less.

over the last 5 games lebron is averaging 28ppg 9.6rpg 7.2apg. more points, rebounds less assists.

trodgers wrote:You'd take Tim Duncan over Kobe Bryant in the post? Despite what the numbers suggest? That's surely interesting, but it says something about you (you make bad decisions) rather than about the players (who has the best post game).

you know what your right. i'll follow that list.

ok so i guess i'll run my offense in the post through demar derozan before i do so through zach randolph, david lee, al jefferson, or chris bosh

oh and i'll run my post game through marcin gortat before tim duncan,david west, lamarcus aldridge, brooke lopez, kevin garnett, and marc gasol

sounds like a plan. lets do it

trodgers wrote:

last stand wrote:He said Kobe is a better all around player because of these past 5 games, I said its ridiculous to make that assumption or else a guy like rondo can make the claim as well. Simple

No, he didn't. You built an argument that you wanted him to be putting forward. You filled in the details, attacked the argument, and that was that. But that's not what he said. I took him to be doing something rather different.

People point to numbers in saying that LeBron is a better player of this or that sort than Kobe.
Kobe typically plays a certain way; so his scoring numbers are better, but other numbers are not as high.
Kobe has clearly changed the way he's playing, and so far the number suggest that he's doing it at an incredible level. The numbers are, so far, better all-around than James's (pts,ast,reb at least).

In posting HIS numbers, Rondo didn't change his style of play at all, so Rondo is irrelevant. You brought in Rondo; he didn't. It was your assumption that Rondo mattered.

So while this five game stretch IS evidence that Kobe can do something compared to LeBron, the 14 games that Rondo posted certain numbers are not evidence of anything related to this debate.

That's why I said, "What on earth are you talking about?" and you response, "Simple," is simply misguided.

he said "there it is for you stat lovers who say lebron is a better all around player than kobe" so he's commenting that these past 5 games dispel that notion. i showed a situation where rondo had similar stats during a small game span, what does changing his game have anything to do with it. lebron had a stretch of 5 games where he averaged 31ppg. does that mean he's a better scorer than kobe. i mean kobe's season average is 27ppg so obviously those 5 games mean he's a better scorer.

and again. the numbers are better than lebron? lebrons season averages hold better scoring, same rebounding, less passing and shooting far better percentages. so again even in that scenario lebron is the better all around player

last stand wrote:

trodgers wrote:You'd take Tim Duncan over Kobe Bryant in the post? Despite what the numbers suggest? That's surely interesting, but it says something about you (you make bad decisions) rather than about the players (who has the best post game).

you know what your right. i'll follow that list.

ok so i guess i'll run my offense in the post through demar derozan before i do so through zach randolph, david lee, al jefferson, or chris bosh

oh and i'll run my post game through marcin gortat before tim duncan,david west, lamarcus aldridge, brooke lopez, kevin garnett, and marc gasol

sounds like a plan. lets do it

There's such a thing as following an argument through from start to finish; then there's kicking out a smokescreen to hope you distract your interlocutor. Don't worry: I'm following your trail. You're simply not engaging with what has been said. The worst part is that you know it. I'm not here to argue for arguments' sake. I'm happy to argue if you want to try to get to the truth of the matter; if you change your mind, PM me and we'll take it up again.

trodgers wrote:

last stand wrote:

trodgers wrote:You'd take Tim Duncan over Kobe Bryant in the post? Despite what the numbers suggest? That's surely interesting, but it says something about you (you make bad decisions) rather than about the players (who has the best post game).

you know what your right. i'll follow that list.

ok so i guess i'll run my offense in the post through demar derozan before i do so through zach randolph, david lee, al jefferson, or chris bosh

oh and i'll run my post game through marcin gortat before tim duncan,david west, lamarcus aldridge, brooke lopez, kevin garnett, and marc gasol

sounds like a plan. lets do it

There's such a thing as following an argument through from start to finish; then there's kicking out a smokescreen to hope you distract your interlocutor. Don't worry: I'm following your trail. You're simply not engaging with what has been said. The worst part is that you know it. I'm not here to argue for arguments' sake. I'm happy to argue if you want to try to get to the truth of the matter; if you change your mind, PM me and we'll take it up again.

so it's ok for you to call out my decision making ability, but it's not ok for me to call out you attacking me for not "following the numbers". well i followed the numbers, to the very letter i might add. and that's what they told me. Gortat is a better post player than duncan, west, aldridge, lopez, garnett, and gasol.

if i'm a bad decision maker for choosing duncan over kobe in the post, then i'd be a bad decision maker for not choosing gortat over those other guys. no smokescreen, just following your instructions

no disrespect from my end, but if your going to attack my ability to make decisions that's your decision, but be fair. if i bring up numbers from the same exact list that your attack stems from don't toss them aside as smokescreen. and if you want to prove me wrong, go ahead, i'm waiting, i hope you do so i can stop arguing. but by that list that's what it says and i don't think anyone would take gortat over those guys. but the numbers show that me taking duncan over kobe in the post is a bad decision right?

but i understand how it works now.

Page 495 and 496 of this thread is magical.

last stand wrote:Who said Lebron wouldn't force the pass.

Murdock wrote:No way LeBron is natural passer like point guard ... he know exactly when to pass and when to shoot ... Kobe forces himself ... just last game vs. Minnesota ... he drove past the defender and was ready for uncontested lay up but passed it to a 3pt line for contested jumper ... that was just bad play, redundant pass ... LeBron is better passer there is no question about that

That person.

I didn't read the rest of your post because frankly I don't really care. Just thought I'd clarify for you who thinks that LeBron wouldn't force a pass.

therealdeal wrote:

last stand wrote:Who said Lebron wouldn't force the pass.

Murdock wrote:No way LeBron is natural passer like point guard ... he know exactly when to pass and when to shoot ... Kobe forces himself ... just last game vs. Minnesota ... he drove past the defender and was ready for uncontested lay up but passed it to a 3pt line for contested jumper ... that was just bad play, redundant pass ... LeBron is better passer there is no question about that

That person.

I didn't read the rest of your post because frankly I don't really care. Just thought I'd clarify for you who thinks that LeBron wouldn't force a pass.

Ok. Doesn't surprise me you didn't read the rest. A lot of condescension going on here from mods that I personally respect the opinion of but are disappointing right now.

last stand wrote:Ok. Doesn't surprise me you didn't read the rest. A lot of condescension going on here from mods that I personally respect the opinion of but are disappointing right now.

What's your deal with me? I'm saying I didn't care about the rest of your post because you didn't seem to see that person's post. I thought the rest of the post would be centered around that mistake, so I didn't care to read it.

If you'd like I'll certainly read the rest of it.

therealdeal wrote:

last stand wrote:Ok. Doesn't surprise me you didn't read the rest. A lot of condescension going on here from mods that I personally respect the opinion of but are disappointing right now.

What's your deal with me? I'm saying I didn't care about the rest of your post because you didn't seem to see that person's post. I thought the rest of the post would be centered around that mistake, so I didn't care to read it.

If you'd like I'll certainly read the rest of it.

Lol I have no deal with anyone. I don't care if anyone reads my posts. Just the condescension from trodgers is staggering so more if it from others wouldn't surprise me.

It was surprising at first. Didn't think this would become a 2 page argument but apparently what I said was a lot more polarizing than I thought

I never even said Lebron was the better player all time (though the possibility exists for one day) but as of now, I don't believe that to be the case

I'm guilty of it as well in some aspects but whatever better to end the argument here

I hadn't read anything between you and trodgers so I have no idea what you're referring to. I was just responding to a post that I saw responded to mine.

Whatever you two are discussing is between you guys. I didn't do anything.

last stand wrote:

King of Clutch wrote:

last stand wrote:

King of Clutch wrote:

last stand wrote:I didn't bring Lebron into the thread. Lebron has proven to be a better all around player his whole career. Kobe in his youth was a better scorer than Lebron will ever be, and if I was starting a franchise and I had a 23 year old version of both available I'd take Kobe.

But Lebron is a better passer, rebounder, defender(now), finisher and he's still a hell of a scorer

Aka better all around player

Lebron is NOT a better passer. He just plays the game with that mentality of pass first. And you see what kobe can do when he plays with that mentality as well. Better rebounder I can take, but he is about 2-3 inches taller than bryant. Don't even need to mention scoring. Defense, yes 28 lbj is better than 34 bryant. I would say kobe is the better all around, most complete player. Best post game in the LEAGUE (Yes, kobe is at the top, even when including centers. Stats prove this. For a 6'6" guard. Let that sink in for a moment.), has hook shots, up and unders, deadly fadeaways over both shoulders, floaters, and every other shot in the book. Great passer, as he's proven he can be if he just chooses to be, good rebounder, great defender more so in his prime as to be expected, coupled with being the greatest scorer to play basketball. Which makes all of this even more impressive. Lbj is a PHENOMINAL athlete, who has great passing skills. Not much more, IMO.

You do know who had the leagues statistical best post game last season right?
You do know who was in the running for DPOY last year and arguably should have won the award?
You do know that neither Kobe or Lebron really have the best post game despite what stats say or said? I'd still take tim Duncan in the post over either guy.

People who don't watch Lebron enough revert to the phenomenal athlete excuse which is a cop out, there are better athletes in the NBA than Lebron (now not before when Lebron was younger). Yet I don't see anyone putting up anything close to his statistics. Nor do I see anyone matching his historical efficiency.

27ppg 8rpg 7apg shooting 55% and 40% from 3, oh with under 3 TOs a game. Kobe's my favorite player of all time, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend he's better than everyone at everything. I swear if Kobe shot 95% free throws for 5 games people would claim he's a better free throw shooter than nash

Kobe is the best post player in the league. Thats a fact. He has more points per possession in the post than anyone else. Durant is second, and Duncan is 3rd. Lbj is past 10. Griffin was higher on the list than him. So I don't know where you're getting your stats from. Just because you have LP doesn't mean much, lol. Eyes can be very deceiving. And I watch the heat plenty, which is why I question your overall basketball knowledge. "Not the best athlete in the league anymore"??? lol what the heck are you doing when you "watch the heat"?Name me another player who is more athletic than lebron.

Look i'm not saying lbj isn't a great player. Lbj has found that perfect balance of scoring and assisting. That I will give him. But as far as doing one thing with excellence. I don't think he's better than kobe in any repect, excluding rebounding. Those 8rebs per game is phenomenal, 1 over his average. Would be slightly more impressive of he wasn't playing pf alongside a center who's averaging the lowest rebounds in his career at 7.2. I guess its just what people value. I'll always take Tim Duncan over guys like Blake Griffin, chris paul and rondo over guys like westbrook and rose, KD and Kobe over guys like lebron and wade. Thats just me. But they're all still amazing players.

you do know that lebron james was the most efficient post scorer last season right, posting up 15% of the time, shooting 65% from the post.

and no he's not the best athlete, though athlete is a subjective opinion, not to mention that wouldn't have any thing to do with my basketball knowledge as it would only comment on my knowledge about athleticism. and if your wondering who i think is more athletic, griffin would be one, and westbrook the other. lebron is in the top 5 though. he's slowed down a bit from his peak athleticism of 24 years old.

and again what statistical proof is there that kobe is a better all around player. so over this 5 game span kobe is averaging 9 less points, and 4 more assists than lebron. while lebron shoots a far better percentage from everywhere but the FT line. and those are season averages not a 5 game average.

how exactly is kobe more all around. one of these guys since we are going season vs. 5 games is scoring at an elite level, all time efficiency and still dishing out assists and rebounding, while the other is passing more, rebounding the same, but scoring much less.

over the last 5 games lebron is averaging 28ppg 9.6rpg 7.2apg. more points, rebounds less assists.

Lol no. In terms of around the rim, I could see the argument being made for griffin. But over the full court? Driving from the 3pt line and being unstoppable in that process? Lbj has the edge. Fast break locomotive? Lbj has the edge. Weak side help? lbj has the edge, on both offense and defense. Blake griffin is a high flyer. Its funny how that's your description of "best athlete", how high you can jump. But if there is any other reason why you think griffin is a better athlete besides his vertical, please let me know, i'd love to hear it. Westbrook is a mini lebron in terms of athleticism. That alone should be enough for that argument.

Also, I didn't know that lbj had the best post game last season. Mind providing a link? would love to see the whole list. And thats besides the point. Kobe bryant is in a whole different LEAGUE when it comes to post play. So there's no reason to even get into that. Also, about kobe's recent stretch, he's not "rebounding the same". He's actually averaging 8.6 rebounds per game, impressive for a guard playing alongside one of the best rebounding centers in the league. As well as assisting much more. Also, I don't know why you're ignoring what i'm saying. I've said that lbj has found that perfect balance of scoring and assisting which has eluded kobe bryant so far. But in terms of doing one thing with excellence, I don't think lbj is better than kobe in any respect excluding rebounding. I said this in my last post, yet you still post lbj stats. Either you chose to ignore it for arguments sake, or missed it.

Regardless I don't think we'll be on the same page. Disagree on many core things. I'll just agree to disagree so this can just come to an end. Sound good?

well I think it's safe to say I completely misread your post. Oh well. It happens.

Emma Watson at #1 is one thing we can agree on!!! lol

last stand wrote:

therealdeal wrote:

last stand wrote:Ok. Doesn't surprise me you didn't read the rest. A lot of condescension going on here from mods that I personally respect the opinion of but are disappointing right now.

What's your deal with me? I'm saying I didn't care about the rest of your post because you didn't seem to see that person's post. I thought the rest of the post would be centered around that mistake, so I didn't care to read it.

If you'd like I'll certainly read the rest of it.

Lol I have no deal with anyone. I don't care if anyone reads my posts. Just the condescension from trodgers is staggering so more if it from others wouldn't surprise me.

It was surprising at first. Didn't think this would become a 2 page argument but apparently what I said was a lot more polarizing than I thought

I never even said Lebron was the better player all time (though the possibility exists for one day) but as of now, I don't believe that to be the case

I'm guilty of it as well in some aspects but whatever better to end the argument here

Condescension? Read back through the conversation. If you can tell me that you're trying to really get at the truth of the matter, as opposed to showing that what you said wasn't reactionary, short-sighted, and, strictly speaking, wrong, then I'll offer an apology. Obviously I would have missed something if that were all true. As I see it, you're painting yourself in a very negative light right now.

King of Clutch wrote:Lol no. In terms of around the rim, I could see the argument being made for griffin. But over the full court? Driving from the 3pt line and being unstoppable in that process? Lbj has the edge. Fast break locomotive? Lbj has the edge. Weak side help? lbj has the edge, on both offense and defense. Blake griffin is a high flyer. Its funny how that's your description of "best athlete", how high you can jump. But if there is any other reason why you think griffin is a better athlete besides his vertical, please let me know, i'd love to hear it. Westbrook is a mini lebron in terms of athleticism. That alone should be enough for that argument.

Also, I didn't know that lbj had the best post game last season. Mind providing a link? would love to see the whole list. And thats besides the point. Kobe bryant is in a whole different LEAGUE when it comes to post play. So there's no reason to even get into that. Also, about kobe's recent stretch, he's not "rebounding the same". He's actually averaging 8.6 rebounds per game, impressive for a guard playing alongside one of the best rebounding centers in the league. As well as assisting much more. Also, I don't know why you're ignoring what i'm saying. I've said that lbj has found that perfect balance of scoring and assisting which has eluded kobe bryant so far. But in terms of doing one thing with excellence, I don't think lbj is better than kobe in any respect excluding rebounding. I said this in my last post, yet you still post lbj stats. Either you chose to ignore it for arguments sake, or missed it.

Regardless I don't think we'll be on the same page. Disagree on many core things. I'll just agree to disagree so this can just come to an end. Sound good?

griffin can run, have you seen how fast the guy can run. he's probably the fastest end to end PF in the game on top of his strength (which he's stronger than lebron) and his leaping ability.

now lebron at 24 and griffin at 24 i'd say lebron was the better athlete but that's straying from the point. i did miss your point about lebron finding balance however lebron has always had that balance if we are talking full games.

now before or if i continue this argument i need to know how you define an all around player. the post game argument confuses me, but heres the link, it's not a link showing a list. still looking for one, but he led in scoring per post up, and scoring efficiency from post up. the 2 categories kobe is leading in now.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entr ... 4/34312887

it confuses me because what does a post up game have to do with this discussion. we aren't discussing who's the more versatile scorer because thats not even a discussion. kobe is the most versatile scorer of all time.

the debate is who is the better all around player. well before we continue, what's your definition of all around. from reading your post it seems like you say being able to do multiple aspects of the game with excellence but not at once, at any time. but an all around game to me means doing everything with excellence at once. i would never say rondo is an all around offensive player because his scoring is average at best. but lebron? he does everything at an extremely high level.

but kobe? i think kobe is an underrated all around player. i think to many in the media peg him as only a scorer. i guess the main part of my disagreement is your argument is based around pegging 5 games against an entire season. if kobe only grabs 3 rebounds a game for the next week does your opinion change, if he scores 40ppg while putting up nothing else statistically for the next 2 weeks does your opinion change? rhetorical questions, my point is 5 games is too small to say he's better than this or that than anyone. what has kobe's career shown us.

he's the best scorer to every play and he's played defense, passed, and rebounded pretty well. lebron's career has shown he scores at a top 3 level every year but his rookie year while being close or in the top 10 in assists every year.

on top of his rebounding.

if kobe does this for the rest of the season, while picking up his scoring, then i'll say ok, maybe had kobe played this way from his youth he'd be the better all around player, but until then its too soon to say any of that which was my point from my original post on the subject

trodgers wrote:
I'm guilty of it as well in some aspects but whatever better to end the argument here

Condescension? Read back through the conversation. If you can tell me that you're trying to really get at the truth of the matter, as opposed to showing that what you said wasn't reactionary, short-sighted, and, strictly speaking, wrong, then I'll offer an apology. Obviously I would have missed something if that were all true. As I see it, you're painting yourself in a very negative light right now.[/quote]

so what the original post said wasn't that kobe is a better all around player than lebron, and that the recent 5 game stretch was proof of that.

if it really wasn't saying that, and i completely misread that original post then yes, i am wrong for taking it in another direction, but when i read the post that's what i see

LeBron vs Kobe, such a refreshing new debate. What's next, Kobe vs MJ? What really happened between Kobe and Shaq?

trodgers wrote:You'd take Tim Duncan over Kobe Bryant in the post? Despite what the numbers suggest? That's surely interesting, but it says something about you (you make bad decisions) rather than about the players (who has the best post game).

That is simply an amazing cut down. I bow to simplistic ownage

puffyusaf#2 wrote:

trodgers wrote:You'd take Tim Duncan over Kobe Bryant in the post? Despite what the numbers suggest? That's surely interesting, but it says something about you (you make bad decisions) rather than about the players (who has the best post game).

That is simply an amazing cut down. I bow to simplistic ownage

it's cool to piggy back on forums, even cooler to revive dead arguments

I'm not sure if this was mentioned already but Kobe had TWO milestones yesterday:

Passed Oscar Robertson for 3rd all-time in Free Throws Made (1. Karl Malone, 2. Moses Malone)
Moved into a tie for 7th all-time in Field Goals Made with Hakeem Olajuwon (1. Kareem, 2. Karl Malone, 3. Wilt, 4. Jordan, 5. Shaq, 6. Elvin Hayes)