Kobe Discussion: shark swimming / #prayforthesharks (664)

^^ Don't get me wrong, I mostly agree, I only posted that espn stats & info tweet because I feel this was a very weird, bizarre game, and that stat helps prove just how unusual it was.

khmrP wrote:

Weezy wrote:Why do people seriously care that Kobe scored 4 points? We won the game, it's not like he had 4 points, 0 assists or something horrible like that, dude had 9 assists and 5 boards, it was a really bad game for him, but even in a really bad game he still gets those 9 assists.

and 8 turnovers.......I hope this doesn't mean he's gona go chuck mode on us against the clippers.

If he can be taken at his word from the post game interviews, it doesn't. He keeps saying he's going to continue to make the right play out of the double teams, I don't see why after a few weeks of this we would not believe him.

Seems too much. Change it up and shoot the ball when he can easily get a good shot. Balance. Stop with the forced passes or over passing. Keep defenses honest. Send me a PM Kobe and we can get this squared away......

I hope he starts scoring the ball, play your natural game. Made enough accomodations already. He facilitates just fine. When you ask him to facilitate he facilitates which is actually Nash's job. Nash cant cover his man so Kobe guards him. metta cant guard his man then Kobe guards him. We have trouble on the boards and he rebounds the ball. What more do you need? We need everyone to start playing to their strengths & STFU almost blew the damn game today, we'd get killed by 25 if we play this away against the Clippers.

kobebryant: [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] game by me with 8to's but happy with the win and how we r bonding as a unit. It was good to catch up with @SHAQ #respect #alphaduo

I knew he would say something about the TOVs, Kobe hates turning the ball over

He spoke about Shaq to some reporters too, said that their relationship is much better now and they have really started to appreciate each other more. IMO it may have something to do with Howard not dominating the way Kobe thought he would, maybe it made him think of Shaq, who he also didn't get along great and had issues about touches but who did dominate the league. I think it's not a coincidence that they've started to get along much better just now..

As JVG said several times , you can't pre-determine if you're going to pass or shoot before/through a game ...

If it's one on one coverage , you attack , if the double comes you pass ...

Kobe has his mind made up through the game he's going to pass no matter what ... not good

It does suck when Kobe has an easy shot and he passes to someone else who misses...

I expect the over passing from Gasol, who's afraid to take the shot. I hate that Kobe has to overpass because he's afraid that his teammates will stop playing.

Jazzygirl205 wrote:Kobe is a shooting guard. I never understood why people insist on him going out there and getting 8-14 assists a game as well as be his normal scoring self. I have never seen that asked out of players who's scoring is a big part of their game. Kobe doesn't and shouldn't have to prove a darn thing to anyone. He shouldn't satisfy them he has 5 of what everyone else is trying to get. He is going to continue to be cold if he approaches the game with this pass first mentality like people want him to.It's sad. I feel bad for him and kind of can't wait until he retires so he can get away from the bias and scrutiny.

because him scoring doesn't work anymore while him playing unselfishly works

People complained that Kobe was shooting too much a few weeks ago, that he needed to take a lesser role. Now he's passing too much, as if it's so easy to find the perfect balance. I'll just say this, I think most here would take passing too much over shooting too much. What's our record this season with Kobe playing how he's always played, being a scorer, and what's our record since Kobe had that 14 assist game and started playing a facilitator role while scoring less. I think they are dramatically different, and I don't think it's a coincidence. Kobe as a scorer first doesn't work with THIS team, had he done it tonight maybe MWP never gets going early and keeps up the defense and energy all game, maybe Jamison doesn't get hot early and have a good game, maybe Dwight stops trying so hard from not getting involved offensively and doesn't have such a big game all around.

This team seems to need this Kobe, or at least the balanced Kobe we have been getting most of the time since he changed his game up. If we lost tonight with Kobe scoring 30+ on 20 shots, people wouldn't be happy, so as bad as he was in the 2nd half we still won, as the rest of the team stepped up, as they have been, and Kobe is not going to go away from what is working IMO.

I don't mind him scoring 4 points...but 1-8 shooting and 8 TOs along the way are atrocious because you are throwing away 17 possessions, regardless of 9 assists. Considering a team gets less than 100 possessions a game, thats throwing away a huge chunk of it.

WIth that said, I would rather have Kobe go 1-8 than 6-23. But of course...mostly I would like to see him shoot 8-15 or something along those numbers.

Kobe's always had trouble with balance. He has a one track mind. He goes into score mode or pass mode.

I don't like all of this overpassing and Metta chucking up every shot ... Kobe has to be aggressive and look to score. All those turnovers result from trying to overpass instead of attacking!

DJ-RaZ-Q#24 wrote:I don't like all of this overpassing and Metta chucking up every shot ... Kobe has to be aggressive and look to score. All those turnovers result from trying to overpass instead of attacking!

but that has been Kobe's issue for his entire career...he cannot consistently stay aggressive and pass the ball often enough at the same time to get others involved. Either he is in scoring mode looking for his shots or he is in pass mode and tends to overpass...he doesn't have that natural ability to do both the right way with the right dosis at the same time. He is prone to either over-shooting or over-passing and if I have to pick my poison...with this particular group I would go with over-passing especially once Gasol is healthy too.

KB24 wrote:

DJ-RaZ-Q#24 wrote:I don't like all of this overpassing and Metta chucking up every shot ... Kobe has to be aggressive and look to score. All those turnovers result from trying to overpass instead of attacking!

but that has been Kobe's issue for his entire career...he cannot consistently stay aggressive and pass the ball often enough at the same time to get others involved. Either he is in scoring mode looking for his shots or he is in pass mode and tends to overpass...he doesn't have that natural ability to do both the right way with the right dosis at the same time. He is prone to either over-shooting or over-passing and if I have to pick my poison...with this particular group I would go with over-passing especially once Gasol is healthy too.

I got your point but tonight it was just brutal ..

KB24 wrote:

DJ-RaZ-Q#24 wrote:I don't like all of this overpassing and Metta chucking up every shot ... Kobe has to be aggressive and look to score. All those turnovers result from trying to overpass instead of attacking!

but that has been Kobe's issue for his entire career...he cannot consistently stay aggressive and pass the ball often enough at the same time to get others involved. Either he is in scoring mode looking for his shots or he is in pass mode and tends to overpass...he doesn't have that natural ability to do both the right way with the right dosis at the same time. He is prone to either over-shooting or over-passing and if I have to pick my poison...with this particular group I would go with over-passing especially once Gasol is healthy too.

very well said

I wouldn't say he's always had a balance issue, or always had a one track mind... During the playoffs, which I consider to be much more telling of players' abilities and level of production than RS, he has had good balance, particulary in between '08 and '10. During the championship runs he'd have games going 35-8-8, 25-7-10, 40-6-6, etc. It was pretty amazing. The Nuggets series in '09, the Magic series in '09 & the Suns series in '10 are great examples of that. He was dominating like never before, and he had great balance.

He can't do everything, I say if Kobe tried this at age 26-28 then he'll have no problem because it's obvious he can do it all. However his legs and his body is not young anymore by NBA standards. Outside in the real world he's just 34, in the NBA he's like 54 (okay maybe I'm exaggerating) but I think people are asking for too much. He can't garner all of these assists then guard the other team's faster sometimes younger best player, at the same time go and score a certain amount of points, and then grab boards other players should be grabbing aka Dwight Howard. I said that before, he can't do this at 34, if this role was needed during our championship run it wouldn't have been NOTHING to Kobe, but we didn't need him to pass because we got 2 titles out of Kobe playing the way Kobe saw fit. It's just too much on the platter and he shouldn't be babying his teammates so they can play well.

Jazzygirl205 wrote:He can't do everything, I say if Kobe tried this at age 26-28 then he'll have no problem because it's obvious he can do it all. However his legs and his body is not young anymore by NBA standards. Outside in the real world he's just 34, in the NBA he's like 54 (okay maybe I'm exaggerating) but I think people are asking for too much. He can't garner all of these assists then guard the other team's faster sometimes younger best player, at the same time go and score a certain amount of points, and then grab boards other players should be grabbing aka Dwight Howard. I said that before, he can't do this at 34, if this role was needed during our championship run it wouldn't have been NOTHING to Kobe, but we didn't need him to pass because we got 2 titles out of Kobe playing the way Kobe saw fit. It's just too much on the platter and he shouldn't be babying his teammates so they can play well.

So you're saying that he can either:

- Shoot 25-30 times (or in some cases over 40) and get 2 assists

OR

- Shoot 10 times (or in some cases less than 10) and get 10 assists

But because of age, he cannot shoot 15-18 times and get 7 assists? That makes no sense. Sounds like an excuse to me.

I would agree that because of age he probably can't take 25 shots and get 10 assists every night and that's fair, I don't think anyone expects him to do that. What many people, including myself, have been expecting from him is more balance but that's been one of Kobe's biggest struggles for years now. Even in games where he does put up like 18 points and gets like 9-10 assists, it is a lot of passing for the entire first half and then shooting for the entire second half. Balance, see?

I suppose if Kobe just isn't capable of playing a balanced game, then I would take the passing Kobe over the scoring Kobe. We're winning with that formula. And in my opinion, even though a Kobe iso triple-pump-fake, fallaway jumper over two defenders miss, is the same net result points wise as a ball that moves inside out, around the arc, touching multiple players hands, for a wide open jump shot that misses, I'd rather take the miss that came out of team play because it will keep players more focused.

Ideally for me, with this team, he is averaging in the high teens to low 20s in points and around 7 assists or so. Some nights he may get one or more of the other and that's ok. But one basket? He's better than this, let's not try to pretend he isn't.

JGC wrote:

Jazzygirl205 wrote:He can't do everything, I say if Kobe tried this at age 26-28 then he'll have no problem because it's obvious he can do it all. However his legs and his body is not young anymore by NBA standards. Outside in the real world he's just 34, in the NBA he's like 54 (okay maybe I'm exaggerating) but I think people are asking for too much. He can't garner all of these assists then guard the other team's faster sometimes younger best player, at the same time go and score a certain amount of points, and then grab boards other players should be grabbing aka Dwight Howard. I said that before, he can't do this at 34, if this role was needed during our championship run it wouldn't have been NOTHING to Kobe, but we didn't need him to pass because we got 2 titles out of Kobe playing the way Kobe saw fit. It's just too much on the platter and he shouldn't be babying his teammates so they can play well.

But because of age, he cannot shoot 15-18 times and get 7 assists? That makes no sense. Sounds like an excuse to me.

Honestly not trying to make excuses. In my opinion, He can't go out there and be expected to get a certain amount of assist, take a certain amount of shots, guard the other team's best player, play defense of a specific magnitude, as well as get a certain amount of boards while playing extended minutes. There has been games where he's had to play too many minutes because our team has gotten behind, and by the time he's invested he'll be tired. A 34 year old shouldn't be asked to carry out that kind of game every single night. Other guys have to take the load off. Right now we don't have those "consistent" reliable pieces to be able to take the load off. Tim Duncan has that, Kevin Garnett has that, Dirk had that during the championship run. None of our guys have been a offensively consistent reliance that could enable Kobe to free up a little, right?

I would agree that because of age he probably can't take 25 shots and get 10 assists every night and that's fair, I don't think anyone expects him to do that. What many people, including myself, have been expecting from him is more balance but that's been one of Kobe's biggest struggles for years now. Even in games where he does put up like 18 points and gets like 9-10 assists, it is a lot of passing for the entire first half and then shooting for the entire second half. Balance, see?

Balance, balance, balance easier said than done, of course. Look at it this way, Ray Allen is a catch and shoot player if someone suggested he play like Paul Pierce at the age he is now he'll pretty much have to abandon one part of his game in order to adhere to the other because he'd have to invest so much energy. If Carmelo transferred from dominant scorer to a Rajon Rondo- esque type game when we know his bread and butter is at 34, same outcome. I'm not saying Kobe shouldn't do it, but we can't expect him to be able to do it night in and night out at this age and at this point in his career. Too much energy expended too many errors that we can't afford to make. There's no time to experiment and gel. Lost athleticism plays a major part as well. If Kobe could get to the basket and get the calls he used to in the past then I'm pretty sure it'll be a different story. But it's not.

I suppose if Kobe just isn't capable of playing a balanced game, then I would take the passing Kobe over the scoring Kobe.

He's capable(as we all saw in previous games) he just can't do it every night. I wish he could, everyone wishes he could but this experimental Kobe phase came some years too late. We really didn't need it in the past though because we had a better coach more consistent, not so much as better, but reliable cast around him, who made it easier for him to play his game, but also made and found their own shots. Unless folks wouldn't mind some injury risks or if we made the playoffs a dead tired Kobe trying to force everything. But what's the reason for us bringing in Steve Nash? You're right though passing Kobe whether he scores no points or 30 points is winning us games so I'll take it.

We're winning with that formula. And in my opinion, even though a Kobe iso triple-pump-fake, fallaway jumper over two defenders miss, is the same net result points wise as a ball that moves inside out, around the arc, touching multiple players hands, for a wide open jump shot that misses, I'd rather take the miss that came out of team play because it will keep players more focused.

Agreed.

Ideally for me, with this team, he is averaging in the high teens to low 20s in points and around 7 assists or so. Some nights he may get one or more of the other and that's ok. But one basket? He's better than this, let's not try to pretend he isn't.

He is better than that, but we just have to accept what's being given to us. At least we're putting ourselves in a position to win. The Lakers winning is all that matters.

Finwë wrote:I wouldn't say he's always had a balance issue, or always had a one track mind... During the playoffs, which I consider to be much more telling of players' abilities and level of production than RS, he has had good balance, particulary in between '08 and '10. During the championship runs he'd have games going 35-8-8, 25-7-10, 40-6-6, etc. It was pretty amazing. The Nuggets series in '09, the Magic series in '09 & the Suns series in '10 are great examples of that. He was dominating like never before, and he had great balance.

Great point, but I think that comes naturally to Kobe because he's one of those few players that really steps up in the playoffs. He takes his game to absolutely another level. Remember him in the '10 playoffs against the Suns? That Game 6 was just one of the most incredible scoring games I've ever witnessed. He was unstoppable.

Rondo is another player in the league today that steps their games up in the playoffs.

I think the problem in the regular season is just focus. He's a classice "one-track" mind kind of guy. It's why when he's scoring well he can get scorching hot and when he's passing well he can make amazing passes. That's not to say he's incapable of doing both, but he ends up just really focusing on one or the other and then he forgets some basics. For instance, in the 4th he should have gone to the post a couple of times and then attacked the basket, but instead he tried to go off the dribble. It's not a big deal though.

I think it's funny that people find a reason to attack him on this too though. "Kobe shoots too much!" so then he passes more and now he passes too much. People will aways find something wrong with Kobe.

sorry jazzygirl205 but you are overreacting. i am not attacking you but kobe s body isn t 54 years old in nba standards if that was the case he couldn t drive and dunk like he is still capable for example. i am one of his biggest fan but yesterday he just had a flat out bad game.he played in the 2nd half like crap , sorry for that. he did the overpassing thing in the 1st half . even when he had a good look or a fastbreak opporturnity he passed the ball crosscourt to an other teammate , that s not smart and absolutely not good.in the 2nd half he had so many turnovers because he overpasssed again or tried to dribble to much not to mention his shooting touch wasn t there because he had no rhytmn at all. he needs to find a balance between poassing and shooting because against better teams we will not escape with a win . i expect him to play a little different vs clippers tommorrow because we need him also as a scorer. i rather want to see him take some shots then mwp chucking so many shots. kobe bryant is a sg not a pg . it can t be right that he has less shots then mwp.

Jazzygirl205 wrote:

JGC wrote:But because of age, he cannot shoot 15-18 times and get 7 assists? That makes no sense. Sounds like an excuse to me.

Honestly not trying to make excuses. In my opinion, He can't go out there and be expected to get a certain amount of assist, take a certain amount of shots, guard the other team's best player, play defense of a specific magnitude, as well as get a certain amount of boards while playing extended minutes. There has been games where he's had to play too many minutes because our team has gotten behind, and by the time he's invested he'll be tired. A 34 year old shouldn't be asked to carry out that kind of game every single night. Other guys have to take the load off. Right now we don't have those "consistent" reliable pieces to be able to take the load off. Tim Duncan has that, Kevin Garnett has that, Dirk had that during the championship run. None of our guys have been a offensively consistent reliance that could enable Kobe to free up a little, right?

I think you're making up the part about people expecting a certain number of rebounds from Kobe. LOL. I have never heard of anyone expecting a certain number in all these years. Where are you getting this idea from?

Do you think it is unrealistic to expect him to...

- Score around 20 pts on most nights
- Average around 6-7 assists on most nights
- Play solid defense

Or do you think that is beyond what Kobe can do at this point in his career?

Jazzygirl205 wrote:

JGC wrote:I would agree that because of age he probably can't take 25 shots and get 10 assists every night and that's fair, I don't think anyone expects him to do that. What many people, including myself, have been expecting from him is more balance but that's been one of Kobe's biggest struggles for years now. Even in games where he does put up like 18 points and gets like 9-10 assists, it is a lot of passing for the entire first half and then shooting for the entire second half. Balance, see?

Balance, balance, balance easier said than done, of course. Look at it this way, Ray Allen is a catch and shoot player if someone suggested he play like Paul Pierce at the age he is now he'll pretty much have to abandon one part of his game in order to adhere to the other because he'd have to invest so much energy. If Carmelo transferred from dominant scorer to a Rajon Rondo- esque type game when we know his bread and butter is at 34, same outcome. I'm not saying Kobe shouldn't do it, but we can't expect him to be able to do it night in and night out at this age and at this point in his career. Too much energy expended too many errors that we can't afford to make. There's no time to experiment and gel. Lost athleticism plays a major part as well. If Kobe could get to the basket and get the calls he used to in the past then I'm pretty sure it'll be a different story. But it's not.

Of course it's easier said than done. That's why he is paid $30 MILLION per year because what he is tasked with doing is supposed to be considered difficult. That's why his salary alone is nearly half of the entire amount of money teams get to fill their roster before being penalized.

I expect Kobe to do whatever it takes to win ball games. Put the ball in the hole, pass to your teammates, make them better, and play some defense. He's utilizing half the team's cap, he's not Ray Allen nor is he paid like Ray Allen.

I don't ever remember someone saying "Ok now, with Bynum's knees we can't expect this and that" and I certainly don't hear much sympathy for Dwight's injury issues either. Get the job done. That's why you get paid the big bucks. Can't shoot 30 times and dish 10 assists? Fine. Then score 20 points and dish 7. Just, adjust, and do it what it takes to win. Talk about what Kobe CAN do to generate wins, not what he can't do anymore because of his age.

Jazzygirl205 wrote:

JGC wrote:I suppose if Kobe just isn't capable of playing a balanced game, then I would take the passing Kobe over the scoring Kobe.

He's capable(as we all saw in previous games) he just can't do it every night. I wish he could, everyone wishes he could but this experimental Kobe phase came some years too late. We really didn't need it in the past though because we had a better coach more consistent, not so much as better, but reliable cast around him, who made it easier for him to play his game, but also made and found their own shots. Unless folks wouldn't mind some injury risks or if we made the playoffs a dead tired Kobe trying to force everything. But what's the reason for us bringing in Steve Nash? You're right though passing Kobe whether he scores no points or 30 points is winning us games so I'll take it.

WHY can't Kobe play with balance? He has shown he can score 30 with no assists, and he's shown he can dish the ball 9 times with almost no points. How about going closer in between those, you know, scoring less and dishing more, a net-net wash in terms of energy output? Why do you feel his age prevents him from doing anything other than either leading the league in scoring or never scoring a basket again and passing only?

Jazzygirl205 wrote:

JGC wrote:Ideally for me, with this team, he is averaging in the high teens to low 20s in points and around 7 assists or so. Some nights he may get one or more of the other and that's ok. But one basket? He's better than this, let's not try to pretend he isn't.

He is better than that, but we just have to accept what's being given to us. At least we're putting ourselves in a position to win. The Lakers winning is all that matters.

Why do we have to accept it? I don't understand that. Is it because it is Kobe? Because we don't accept it from anybody else and last I checked he's a human being too. I don't think I'll ever accept that we're losing more games than we are winning.

Balance has been a struggle for Kobe his whole career. Please don't use his age now as a reason we can't expect him to play the right way. Playing the right way is not necessarily an expectation of numbers, it's an expectation on a style of play.

kobebryant248 wrote:sorry jazzygirl205 but you are overreacting. i am not attacking you but kobe s body isn t 54 years old in nba standards if that was the case he couldn t drive and dunk like he is still capable for example. i am one of his biggest fan but yesterday he just had a flat out bad game.he played in the 2nd half like crap , sorry for that. he did the overpassing thing in the 1st half . even when he had a good look or a fastbreak opporturnity he passed the ball crosscourt to an other teammate , that s not smart and absolutely not good.in the 2nd half he had so many turnovers because he overpasssed again or tried to dribble to much not to mention his shooting touch wasn t there because he had no rhytmn at all. he needs to find a balance between poassing and shooting because against better teams we will not escape with a win . i expect him to play a little different vs clippers tommorrow because we need him also as a scorer. i rather want to see him take some shots then mwp chucking so many shots. kobe bryant is a sg not a pg . it can t be right that he has less shots then mwp.

Yeah I mentioned many of times in older posts that Kobe is a SG not a PG. That's the point I used in my posts above as well. I don't know what else to say honestly. I was just referencing how people expect him to do it all and still be the team's trusted defender on the opposing team's best player. Imo this will only be a good thing if we can sustain leads as a team. Less minutes for Kobe and Nash, fresher legs or a little less wear on their legs for expending so many minutes the better if would be for them to give you games where they can score but still impact pass wise. But with their age and the way our team has performed we can't expect to see things pan out so perfectly every game. I want Kobe to find balance too but, right now all we can do is take what's given. All that matters is that we're winning games.