Kobe Discussion: shark swimming / #prayforthesharks (664)

Didn't watch the ballgame, but same old story as usual. Missing lots of shots and getting hot in the end of the game, fans are saying Kobe is the only one who wants to win and making tough shots in final mins, Pau is soft and has some bad plays in the end.

22 missing shots and 6 turnovers.

odom1year wrote:Didn't watch the ballgame, but same old story as usual.

fixed

I start to accept that our window to win another title with Kobe is closed, Kobe will not get the 6th rings, it's sad but true.

John3:16 wrote:

trodgers wrote:Romo is better than Kaepernick by a mile, John. Now you're trolling.

But...Kobe vs. Witten?!?!!

Disagree. And it won't be long before people agree with me. LOTS OF PEOPLE!

Gonna bump this, even if it's the wrong thread for this discussion. Kaepernick has been amazing in his 7 starts.

SuperBowl baby!

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:

odom1year wrote:Didn't watch the ballgame, as usual, but looked at the box score and commented like I know what I'm saying just from reading stats.

fixed

Fixed again.

revgen wrote:

Ariza68 wrote:

revgen wrote:Kobe's job is to be a leader and take the pressure off the team. So of course he's going to blame himself when we all know that defense is the real problem.

Defense is a problem but a shooting night of 10-32 with 6 turnovers is also a very difficult setback to overcome in a basketball game. Only on these boards can you find people willing to minimize such an egregious milestone.

We scored 103 points today, so that wasn't too difficult to overcome.

Scoring isn't the problem. The problem is on the defensive end. Until we address that issue, we're going to continue to lose games.

Well, scoring (as in, average PPG) isn't the problem I mean, it is what it is. But that isn't to say scoring isn't A problem. I think if you look purely at the totals, it looks like we're a great, efficient, offensive scoring machine. But really, we look more like a group of individuals out there most of the time. Little ball movement, and very little off the ball player movement. It drives me nuts to see guys standing around the perimeter watching the ball. The reason we're able to put up a decent number of points isn't, IMO, because we're a good offensive TEAM, it's because we have a bunch of guys who can create points for themselves. But they seemingly can't create (either directly or indirectly) points for others. It has to be a collective effort. Yes, we have Nash, but Nash can't be the only guy who isn't a black hole on offense. It's a TEAM game and we don't play like a team on either end of the floor.

The reason we don't see the same production translate over to the defensive end is because almost none (except for maybe MWP) of our players are defensive minded players. That is, players who identify as defensive players first and foremost, and offensive players second.

My personal belief is that if you can get these offensive minded players on the same page and liking each other and some chemistry developed, you may not see a greater output in terms of points, but you'll see more efficient offense and you'll see some defense translating over as well. It's all there, it's a matter of getting it out of these guys by getting them synced up. Unfortunately, we don't have the leadership on this team to accomplish that.

JGC wrote:

revgen wrote:

Ariza68 wrote:

revgen wrote:Kobe's job is to be a leader and take the pressure off the team. So of course he's going to blame himself when we all know that defense is the real problem.

Defense is a problem but a shooting night of 10-32 with 6 turnovers is also a very difficult setback to overcome in a basketball game. Only on these boards can you find people willing to minimize such an egregious milestone.

We scored 103 points today, so that wasn't too difficult to overcome.

Scoring isn't the problem. The problem is on the defensive end. Until we address that issue, we're going to continue to lose games.

Well, scoring (as in, average PPG) isn't the problem I mean, it is what it is. But that isn't to say scoring isn't A problem. I think if you look purely at the totals, it looks like we're a great, efficient, offensive scoring machine. But really, we look more like a group of individuals out there most of the time. Little ball movement, and very little off the ball player movement. It drives me nuts to see guys standing around the perimeter watching the ball. The reason we're able to put up a decent number of points isn't, IMO, because we're a good offensive TEAM, it's because we have a bunch of guys who can create points for themselves. But they seemingly can't create (either directly or indirectly) points for others. It has to be a collective effort. Yes, we have Nash, but Nash can't be the only guy who isn't a black hole on offense. It's a TEAM game and we don't play like a team on either end of the floor.

The reason we don't see the same production translate over to the defensive end is because almost none (except for maybe MWP) of our players are defensive minded players. That is, players who identify as defensive players first and foremost, and offensive players second.

My personal belief is that if you can get these offensive minded players on the same page and liking each other and some chemistry developed, you may not see a greater output in terms of points, but you'll see more efficient offense and you'll see some defense translating over as well. It's all there, it's a matter of getting it out of these guys by getting them synced up. Unfortunately, we don't have the leadership on this team to accomplish that.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it.

1) We're in the top 10 in offensive points per possession.

2) We're in the bottom 10 in defensive points per possession.

This isn't rocket science. Our defense is killing us. We either start concentrating on that end of the floor or we start making trades.

It's almost like they're just playing a pick-up basketball system. Something along the lines of "you take a few shots, I'll take some shots" and hoping for the best of it.

JGC wrote:

revgen wrote:

Ariza68 wrote:

revgen wrote:Kobe's job is to be a leader and take the pressure off the team. So of course he's going to blame himself when we all know that defense is the real problem.

Defense is a problem but a shooting night of 10-32 with 6 turnovers is also a very difficult setback to overcome in a basketball game. Only on these boards can you find people willing to minimize such an egregious milestone.

We scored 103 points today, so that wasn't too difficult to overcome.

Scoring isn't the problem. The problem is on the defensive end. Until we address that issue, we're going to continue to lose games.

Well, scoring (as in, average PPG) isn't the problem I mean, it is what it is. But that isn't to say scoring isn't A problem. I think if you look purely at the totals, it looks like we're a great, efficient, offensive scoring machine. But really, we look more like a group of individuals out there most of the time. Little ball movement, and very little off the ball player movement. It drives me nuts to see guys standing around the perimeter watching the ball. The reason we're able to put up a decent number of points isn't, IMO, because we're a good offensive TEAM, it's because we have a bunch of guys who can create points for themselves. But they seemingly can't create (either directly or indirectly) points for others. It has to be a collective effort. Yes, we have Nash, but Nash can't be the only guy who isn't a black hole on offense. It's a TEAM game and we don't play like a team on either end of the floor.

The reason we don't see the same production translate over to the defensive end is because almost none (except for maybe MWP) of our players are defensive minded players. That is, players who identify as defensive players first and foremost, and offensive players second.

My personal belief is that if you can get these offensive minded players on the same page and liking each other and some chemistry developed, you may not see a greater output in terms of points, but you'll see more efficient offense and you'll see some defense translating over as well. It's all there, it's a matter of getting it out of these guys by getting them synced up. Unfortunately, we don't have the leadership on this team to accomplish that.

revgen wrote:

JGC wrote:

revgen wrote:

Ariza68 wrote:Defense is a problem but a shooting night of 10-32 with 6 turnovers is also a very difficult setback to overcome in a basketball game. Only on these boards can you find people willing to minimize such an egregious milestone.

We scored 103 points today, so that wasn't too difficult to overcome.

Scoring isn't the problem. The problem is on the defensive end. Until we address that issue, we're going to continue to lose games.

Well, scoring (as in, average PPG) isn't the problem I mean, it is what it is. But that isn't to say scoring isn't A problem. I think if you look purely at the totals, it looks like we're a great, efficient, offensive scoring machine. But really, we look more like a group of individuals out there most of the time. Little ball movement, and very little off the ball player movement. It drives me nuts to see guys standing around the perimeter watching the ball. The reason we're able to put up a decent number of points isn't, IMO, because we're a good offensive TEAM, it's because we have a bunch of guys who can create points for themselves. But they seemingly can't create (either directly or indirectly) points for others. It has to be a collective effort. Yes, we have Nash, but Nash can't be the only guy who isn't a black hole on offense. It's a TEAM game and we don't play like a team on either end of the floor.

The reason we don't see the same production translate over to the defensive end is because almost none (except for maybe MWP) of our players are defensive minded players. That is, players who identify as defensive players first and foremost, and offensive players second.

My personal belief is that if you can get these offensive minded players on the same page and liking each other and some chemistry developed, you may not see a greater output in terms of points, but you'll see more efficient offense and you'll see some defense translating over as well. It's all there, it's a matter of getting it out of these guys by getting them synced up. Unfortunately, we don't have the leadership on this team to accomplish that.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it.

1) We're in the top 10 in offensive points per possession.

2) We're in the bottom 10 in defensive points per possession.

This isn't rocket science. Our defense is killing us.

I'm honestly not sure how you can watch these games, and think that everything is great, EXCEPT for the defense.

We look AWFUL out there offensively.

All those stats tell you is what happened. It doesn't tell you how or why. We've got to be in the bottom half of the league in stats like AST/FGM or some stat that could paint a picture of how well the team moves and shares the ball.

We're playing pickup basketball on the offensive side and scoring points because we have talented individual offensive players. I'm not sure how those stats definitively mean that we are playing as a team and not as a group of individuals.

If Kobe scored all of our points every single game and another team had multiple players averaging double figures but averaging the same point totals as a team, would they have the same points per possession number?

Weezy wrote:

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:

odom1year wrote:Didn't watch the ballgame, as usual, but looked at the box score and commented like I know what I'm saying just from reading stats. Then when someone calls me out about it I'll use previous post to validate my opinion based off box score watching.

fixed

Fixed again.

Fixed a third time

puffyusaf#2 wrote:

Weezy wrote:

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:

odom1year wrote:Didn't watch the ballgame, as usual, but looked at the box score and commented like I know what I'm saying just from reading stats. Then when someone calls me out about it I'll use previous post to validate my opinion based off box score watching.

fixed

Fixed again.

Fixed a third time

Fixed a fourth time. Just added some bolds, font treatment and underlines for fun.

Can anyone else get creative with the treatment? Do something crazy like add some colors and stuff. Go for it!

JGC wrote:

revgen wrote:

JGC wrote:

revgen wrote:

Ariza68 wrote:Defense is a problem but a shooting night of 10-32 with 6 turnovers is also a very difficult setback to overcome in a basketball game. Only on these boards can you find people willing to minimize such an egregious milestone.

We scored 103 points today, so that wasn't too difficult to overcome.

Scoring isn't the problem. The problem is on the defensive end. Until we address that issue, we're going to continue to lose games.

Well, scoring (as in, average PPG) isn't the problem I mean, it is what it is. But that isn't to say scoring isn't A problem. I think if you look purely at the totals, it looks like we're a great, efficient, offensive scoring machine. But really, we look more like a group of individuals out there most of the time. Little ball movement, and very little off the ball player movement. It drives me nuts to see guys standing around the perimeter watching the ball. The reason we're able to put up a decent number of points isn't, IMO, because we're a good offensive TEAM, it's because we have a bunch of guys who can create points for themselves. But they seemingly can't create (either directly or indirectly) points for others. It has to be a collective effort. Yes, we have Nash, but Nash can't be the only guy who isn't a black hole on offense. It's a TEAM game and we don't play like a team on either end of the floor.

The reason we don't see the same production translate over to the defensive end is because almost none (except for maybe MWP) of our players are defensive minded players. That is, players who identify as defensive players first and foremost, and offensive players second.

My personal belief is that if you can get these offensive minded players on the same page and liking each other and some chemistry developed, you may not see a greater output in terms of points, but you'll see more efficient offense and you'll see some defense translating over as well. It's all there, it's a matter of getting it out of these guys by getting them synced up. Unfortunately, we don't have the leadership on this team to accomplish that.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it.

1) We're in the top 10 in offensive points per possession.

2) We're in the bottom 10 in defensive points per possession.

This isn't rocket science. Our defense is killing us.

I'm honestly not sure how you can watch these games, and think that everything is great, EXCEPT for the defense.

We look AWFUL out there offensively.

All those stats tell you is what happened. It doesn't tell you how or why. We've got to be in the bottom half of the league in stats like AST/FGM or some stat that could paint a picture of how well the team moves and shares the ball.

We're playing pickup basketball on the offensive side and scoring points because we have talented individual offensive players. I'm not sure how those stats definitively mean that we are playing as a team and not as a group of individuals.

If Kobe scored all of our points every single game and another team had multiple players averaging double figures but averaging the same point totals as a team, would they have the same points per possession number?

I don't care how we're scoring the points. We're scoring them. And we're scoring them efficiently enough to be in the top 10 in offensive points per possession.

I don't see how you or anybody else can be so concerned about offense when our defense is simply awful. You don't need to look at a stat sheet to see it. We don't run back in transition. We don't help each other in the half-court and when we do, we're often slow to help and recover.

If you can watch these games and be so concerned about offense and ball movement, then go ahead. I can't change your point of view.

I just hope the coaches and players on this team aren't looking at the games the way you are. Because if they are, we're going to keep losing games.

Weezy wrote:

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:

odom1year wrote:Didn't watch the ballgame, as usual, but looked at the box score and commented like I know what I'm saying just from reading stats.

fixed

Fixed again.

there we go

Go to the low block and stop launching so many threes ...attempts more than seven 3 a game since December

I don't want to defend Kobe's shooting game, but I feel forced to at least a little yet again. You can't just look and say he took 32 shots he chucked. How many of those shots were desperation shots when we were trying to come back? How did he he shoot after starting 3-14, 7-18, not quite as bad. He and Dwight had found a nice little balance there the past 3 games, getting close to equal shot amounts, then Dwight is ejected and his shots go up, not a coincidence to me. Also playing with lineups of players with little to no offensive skill, Sacre, Duhon and even Clark (love the guy but he gets his offense off hustle like Jordan Hill, not really on his own), so Kobe does what he does, shoot. Lastly, how many free throws did Kobe have? Three. Usually you expect him to get more than that, and that brings down his official number of shots in the box score to make it look better for those that only read that to judge a performance. Yes he shot too many 3's, 12 is too much, but again how many of those were in an attempt to make a comeback? Maybe half, again context matters. So yes, Kobe sucked, but the level that some take it to is a bit over the top for me, it's one game. Oh and we lost because of defense anyway, so if you want to blame Kobe I doubt anyone argues. We put up 103, but we gave up 108 after holding 3 teams in a row to under 100, not a coincidence we won 2 of those and were in it most of the time against the Heat.

revgen wrote:I don't care how we're scoring the points. We're scoring them. And we're scoring them efficiently enough to be in the top 10 in offensive points per possession.

I don't see how you or anybody else can be so concerned about offense when our defense is simply awful. You don't need to look at a stat sheet to see it. We don't run back in transition. We don't help each other in the half-court and the stats show it.

If you can watch those games and be so concerned about offense and ball movement, then go ahead. I can't change your point of view.

I just hope the coaches and players on this team aren't looking at the games the way you are. Because if they are, we're going to keep losing games.

I'm not concerned about the offense per se. What I'm saying is that the reason, IMO, that we suck on defense, is the same reason we suck on offense. We don't play as a team. And when you don't play as a team, and you have players that aren't defensive minded players, then your defense will suffer. So sure, we are in the top 10 in a points produced statistic, but, we're outside of the top 15 (or half) of the league in assists per possession. A truly efficient and sustainable offense would be similarly ranked (like the Spurs and Clippers are).

But my point wasn't that we DON'T need to focus on defense. My point is that this team is motivated to play, by playing offense because it is chock full of offensive minded players and coaching staff. Remember, you're talking about a team whose clearcut #1 guy has sacrificed even giving effort on many nights defensively, for the sake of offense. So the trick, IMO, to getting offensive minded players to focus more on defense, is to get them on the same page and clicking offensively. Take for instance, the Suns during the time they were winning 50-60 games. Horrible team defensively on paper, but they were middle of the pack defensively (around 14-15 defensive rank). Wasn't good enough to get them over the top, but for them, playing even average defense was a result of a collective effort that was greater than sum of their defensively limited parts.

Weezy wrote:I don't want to defend Kobe's shooting game, but I feel forced to at least a little yet again. You can't just look and say he took 32 shots he chucked. How many of those shots were desperation shots when we were trying to come back? How did he he shoot after starting 3-14, 7-18, not quite as bad. He and Dwight had found a nice little balance there the past 3 games, getting close to equal shot amounts, then Dwight is ejected and his shots go up, not a coincidence to me. Also playing with lineups of players with little to no offensive skill, Sacre, Duhon and even Clark (love the guy but he gets his offense off hustle like Jordan Hill, not really on his own), so Kobe does what he does, shoot. Lastly, how many free throws did Kobe have? Three. Usually you expect him to get more than that, and that brings down his official number of shots in the box score to make it look better for those that only read that to judge a performance. Yes he shot too many 3's, 12 is too much, but again how many of those were in an attempt to make a comeback? Maybe half, again context matters. So yes, Kobe sucked, but the level that some take it to is a bit over the top for me, it's one game.

True ... but this isn't a one game thing ... he's shooting way too many threes under Antoni and I've never seen him played so little in the post ... while he's easily a top 5 post players in this league ...

wcsoldier81 wrote:True ... but this isn't a one game thing ... he's shooting way too many threes under Antoni and I've never seen him played so little in the post ... while he's easily a top 5 post players in this league ...

Yes he is,no argument here, and I can't explain it. He started the season very efficient, hardly shooting any 3's, but I guess 'Antoni's offense has changed things.

Weezy wrote:I don't want to defend Kobe's shooting game, but I feel forced to at least a little yet again. You can't just look and say he took 32 shots he chucked. How many of those shots were desperation shots when we were trying to come back? How did he he shoot after starting 3-14, 7-18, not quite as bad. He and Dwight had found a nice little balance there the past 3 games, getting close to equal shot amounts, then Dwight is ejected and his shots go up, not a coincidence to me. Also playing with lineups of players with little to no offensive skill, Sacre, Duhon and even Clark (love the guy but he gets his offense off hustle like Jordan Hill, not really on his own), so Kobe does what he does, shoot. Lastly, how many free throws did Kobe have? Three. Usually you expect him to get more than that, and that brings down his official number of shots in the box score to make it look better for those that only read that to judge a performance. Yes he shot too many 3's, 12 is too much, but again how many of those were in an attempt to make a comeback? Maybe half, again context matters. So yes, Kobe sucked, but the level that some take it to is a bit over the top for me, it's one game.

I never understood the justification for moving away from the team concept in just about any situation. Maybe a part of that is because I'm a smaller guy and so I've always played point. I don't think the issue, IMO (and, at least for me) is the shot volume. It almost never is. It is HOW the shots were taken. So many times Kobe gets the ball with 15+ seconds on the clock and it's dribble, dribble, pull it back, dribble dribble then fall away contested jumper. It's such a tremendous waste of energy for our most valuable asset not to mention way too easy to defend these days with Kobe being less explosive. If Kobe took all of those shots within the context of a team oriented offense, and still missed them, I'm fine with it. If the ball is swinging around and Kobe is moving off the ball and he catches and pulls up and misses, it's ok. If you watch though, he is just standing there at the 3pt line the whole time (does this on defense also). But if he does the over dribble, dance a bit, tunnel vision, fall away from behind the backboard, it's not ok for me even if it does go in. I think it sets the wrong example for the team. It's saying, if we're struggling then it's ok to play the wrong way.

I thought it got really bad from about the 5 min mark or so in the 3rd quarter against the Raptors. We were down what, double digits at that point? The ONLY way we are going to have a chance to get back in to the game when you have a deficit that large and on the road is by having other people contribute even if they haven't to that point. And by contribute, that can also mean other players making plays for Kobe too.

I just can't imagine a scenario, where, the right thing to do is to NOT play like a team.

JGC wrote:

puffyusaf#2 wrote:

Weezy wrote:

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:

odom1year wrote:Didn't watch the ballgame, as usual, but looked at the box score and commented like I know what I'm saying just from reading stats. Then when someone calls me out about it I'll use previous post to validate my opinion based off box score watching.

fixed

Fixed again.

Fixed a third time

Fixed a fourth time. Just added some bolds, font treatment and underlines for fun.

Can anyone else get creative with the treatment? Do something crazy like add some colors and stuff. Go for it!

''My offense was sub-par in terms of missing easy shots,'' Kobe said. ''I've got to do a better job of putting that ball in the hole when the opportunity presents itself.''

Let's see whether he can fix it.

I can, I already said it, when you're surrounded by Sacre,Duhon and guys like that. When you're surrounded by Kwame, Luke, and Smush. These are times I'd rather Kobe keep shooting and take my chances than watch Sacre with the ball and know the outcome beforehand. That is how Kobe is, for better or worse, you'd think we'd be used to it by now. I have said repeatedly that I want Nash having the ball way more, controlling the offense more, shooting more, but for whatever reason he isn't and hasn't. But again this is all offense, I still believe defense is our main problem. Right after I made that post above I immediately regretted it honestly though, because I don't even know why I'm arguing this. I don't mean that as in why am I wasting my time when I know I'm right or some arrogant way, because I think both sides make valid points. I just mean I'm so tired of arguing about this team right now, we suck so bad as a team right now, arguing shot totals and such seems so unimportant, I just want wins. I don't care who's fault it is we're losing I just want it to stop, I don't have the energy to argue Kobe and how much he shot anymore, it's all draining and a downer in what was supposed to be a great season.

JGC wrote:We've got to be in the bottom half of the league in stats like AST/FGM or some stat that could paint a picture of how well the team moves and shares the ball.

We're 15th (right in the middle) in AST/FGM. We're ahead of some good teams like Miami, Oklahoma, New York (last), and Brooklyn. Chicago and San Antonio are the top 2, but that's not surprising at all. Lol.

For the most part, our offense has been fine. We've been hovering around 5th/6th for the entire season. We might have a few issues, but the much more glaring problem is defense. Sadly, I don't think that's going to get better any time soon unless we make a trade or two.

thkthebest wrote:

JGC wrote:We've got to be in the bottom half of the league in stats like AST/FGM or some stat that could paint a picture of how well the team moves and shares the ball.

We're 15th (right in the middle) in AST/FGM. We're ahead of some good teams like Miami, Oklahoma, New York (last), and Brooklyn. Chicago and San Antonio are the top 2, but that's not surprising at all. Lol.

For the most part, our offense has been fine. We've been hovering around 5th/6th for the entire season. We might have a few issues, but the much more glaring problem is defense. Sadly, I don't think that's going to get better any time soon unless we make a trade or two.

So that makes total sense then to what I've been observing in the games. That we score sufficiently, but the efficiency with which we score is not at the same level. Where does one find team points per possession? I'd like to look this up myself.

I think efficiency is so important because it speaks to sustainability. An efficient system can continue to produce, but an inefficient system is more susceptible to breaking down.