Kobe Discussion: shark swimming / #prayforthesharks (664)

we need more ball movement. the team doesnt need 30-40 points from Kobe, they need his ability to draw attention and then make a good PASS. we need Kobe in the 6-7+ assist range, which he can easily get with this team if he actually chooses too. Jamison didnt seem to miss today and i thought Duhon found him so why couldnt Kobe.

His mentality today was "attack", as usual, but in the games where his mentality is "get others involved and play the point" we win.

Kobe shot 46FG% tonight. I don't have a problem with him taking the shots as long as they're going in, which they were. That in addition to the fact that he can actually knock down a FT doesn't make me nervous about him shooting so much.

What really killed us tonight other than "hack a dwight" was the 18 TO's and the 21 offensive rebounds we gave up to the Rockets. The Rockets put up 101 shot attempts tonight. We only had 82 shot attempts. Both teams had 38 made FG's despite the Rockets shooting a lower % due to our TO's and poor defensive rebounding.

GoldenKnight wrote:

Scnottaken wrote:

GoldenKnight wrote:It will only keep getting worse if he decides to shoot 30+ times again, he was more efficient when he shot less, hes back to last season chucking mode forgetting he has the best C in the NBA to throw it in to...

Ehhh, he may be the best C, but he's certainly not the best offensive C. His post game is just. . . ugly.

That doesn't give Kobe the right to shoot 30+ times

Never said it did. Dumping it in to Dwight in the final 2 minutes would most likely result in more Hack-a-Dwight though, which is no fun. Without footwork, he won't get a good look while getting fouled so no and-1's.

Ariza3 wrote:

@LakersReporter: The Lakers are 1-7 when Kobe scores at least 30 points, & 7-3 when he scores less than 30. They're 5-1 when he has 6+ assists.

Exactly, this what I've been saying all along! With this team and system, Kobe needs to rack up the assists in order for us to be succesful. When Nash is back he can start focusing on his scoring again.

Last night we should have won though. Turnovers and defense are killing us time and time again. It wouldn't hurt either if Dwight could hit his freethrows. It's not only the issue that he misses them, but when other teams go into hack a dwight mode they also totally disturb our offensive rhytm. As long as Dwight does not punish them for fouling him, our oppontents have everything to gain from going to this strategy.

Kobe being Kobe We used to win games when Bynum focused on D and rebounding (dude got a LOT of heat for not doing it on constant basis), same with Kobe. We win when he passes more instead of chucking 30 times a game... guess what occures more often

revgen wrote:Kobe shot 46FG% tonight. I don't have a problem with him taking the shots as long as they're going in, which they were. That in addition to the fact that he can actually knock down a FT doesn't make me nervous about him shooting so much.

What really killed us tonight other than "hack a dwight" was the 18 TO's and the 21 offensive rebounds we gave up to the Rockets. The Rockets put up 101 shot attempts tonight. We only had 82 shot attempts. Both teams had 38 made FG's despite the Rockets shooting a lower % due to our TO's and poor defensive rebounding.

This. The turnovers have been an issue for a minute.

But the offensive rebounds had me throwing the remote at the wall literally. It was just tough to watch and very aggravating.

ChuckBe...

Ariza3 wrote:

@LakersReporter: The Lakers are 1-7 when Kobe scores at least 30 points, & 7-3 when he scores less than 30. They're 5-1 when he has 6+ assists.

Pretty much says it all.

JLaker17 wrote:

Ariza3 wrote:

@LakersReporter: The Lakers are 1-7 when Kobe scores at least 30 points, & 7-3 when he scores less than 30. They're 5-1 when he has 6+ assists.

Pretty much says it all.

What does it say?

Lakers are 1-4 when Howard shoots 14+ FTs. Lakers are 2-4 when Howard blocks 4+ shots.
So, we want to keep Howard off the line and tel him not to block shots.

When MWP...
Shoots 5 or fewer Threes, the Lakers are 1-6.
Shoots 7 or more Threes, the Lakers are 6-2.
So, we want MWP to gun a bunch of threes.

Its hard to understand Kobe at times. He demands help from management, gets the help he needs, and still tries to play Kobe ball. I might get a lot of heat for this but even Lebron James would do a better job leading this team right now then Kobe Bryant. Kobe just has a hard time understanding his role. Listen, I understand he is Kobe, but enough of this, he keeps calling out his teammates when he too has a lot of blame for our current record, it starts with the leader.

Am I worried? No im not, personally I think will be okay and we still have a lot of time to get our act together, however, someone needs to tell Kobe to understand his role, we dont need him to take over 30 plus shots or get his points like he's accustom to. Everyone has to sacrifice something, and its time for Kobe to sacrifice his shot attempts and points in order to get everyone involved and start winning. The trio of Wade, Bosh, and James all had to sacrifice their shot attempts, stats, role, etc. and it seems the only player in this team not willing to sacrifice has been Kobe. Yeah there's been flashes of it, but not consistently were he understands his permanent role. I love Kobe, but I love the Lakers more, and this is more then just about Kobe.

Lebron James: “Ask me to play. I'll play.
Ask me to shoot. I'll shoot.
Ask me to pass. I'll pass.
Ask me to steal, block out, sacrifice, lead, dominate.
ANYTHING."

Dwayne Wade on sacrificing his game: ""It was probably one of the hardest things I had to do in sports was to, in a sense, take a step back. A lot of people don't understand. They'll say, 'Why would you do that?' To me, I want more success from winning. I don't want another scoring title. I'm just trying to win."

Chris Bosh: ""I know that sacrifices have to be made to play with good teams.""

Everyone in Miami know their role, they understand it. Meanwhile in Laker land, Kobe says: "This is my team". Yes we know, but how about making the right adjustments to get everyone involve and start winning.

^^^^ Kobe has always liked winning one way : his way i.e being the best scorer , taking all the big shots ... you can't expect him to change and takes even a little step back as he gets older and is now clearly out of his prime for a couple of seasons ...

He said it himself he's not going to change and adapt ... he could have KD or Lebron on his team , he still would take more shots than them because he's stubborn and can't accept the fact he's not the best player in the league anymore .. his biggest strength is his biggest weakness..

You have to take the good and the bad ... pb is the bad has been and will be more frequent at this point of his career

lakerswiz wrote:

@LakersReporter: The Lakers are 1-7 when Kobe scores at least 30 points, & 7-3 when he scores less than 30. They're 5-1 when he has 6+ assists.

These little stats are such crap. Kobe's scoring 30+ because he has too. Because the rest of the team is shooting 35% from the field. We win when he has assists because his teammates are making their shots. It's not like the guy just doesn't pass the ball.

I'd be more interested in teammates shooting percentage in games where Kobe scores 30+ vs games when he doesn't.

Rest of the team is shooting 45% when Kobe scored under 30
Rest of the team is shooting 43.4% when Kobe scored over 30

- Teammates only failed to reach 40% FG only once when Kobe scored over 30 ... against Indiana rest of the team shot at 25% ( which considerably brought the average down ... from 46% to 43.4%)

FG % of the teammates in games when Kobe scored over 30 : 50%, 44.4%, 49.2%, 40%, 50.9%, 25%, 40.6%, 47%

Kobe didn't NEED to shoot 30x for last nite game, he choose too, it was pretty obvious from the start. How can anyone say he needed too when he didn't even give the team a chance to miss shots?

revgen wrote:Kobe shot 46FG% tonight. I don't have a problem with him taking the shots as long as they're going in, which they were. That in addition to the fact that he can actually knock down a FT doesn't make me nervous about him shooting so much.

What really killed us tonight other than "hack a dwight" was the 18 TO's and the 21 offensive rebounds we gave up to the Rockets. The Rockets put up 101 shot attempts tonight. We only had 82 shot attempts. Both teams had 38 made FG's despite the Rockets shooting a lower % due to our TO's and poor defensive rebounding.

^^ Great post. +1. We had the lead for most of this game. Once again we lost it and lost the game in the fourth quarter. Lack of focus/attention, Hack a Dwight, not locking down the opponent at the end because you are simply trying to outscore them are the culprits for me. They basically played D' Antoni ball to a tee last night as far as I could see - shooting tons and dictating the pace . . . but they couldn't put the other team away and couldn't do it the game before either. Nor could they put Indiana away. They aren't so hot down the stretch. Of course they are missing two of their HOF players in Nash and Gasol. Those guys will certainly help in crunch time. But who knows when either one will be back.

Kobe's doing what he thinks he needs to do to win the game. As far as I'm concerned he was shooting pretty hot in the first half and was a big reason we had the cushion that we had. The second half was more suspect - he started clanking those threes especially. He got tired basically. At that point he probably should have deferred more but it is what it is. We still had a lead deep into the fourth.

lakerswiz wrote:

@LakersReporter: The Lakers are 1-7 when Kobe scores at least 30 points, & 7-3 when he scores less than 30. They're 5-1 when he has 6+ assists.

These little stats are such crap. Kobe's scoring 30+ because he has too. Because the rest of the team is shooting 35% from the field. We win when he has assists because his teammates are making their shots. It's not like the guy just doesn't pass the ball.

I'd be more interested in teammates shooting percentage in games where Kobe scores 30+ vs games when he doesn't.

I don't agree with that overall stat myself, but if you watched yesterday's game, you cannot disagree with the fact that he came out gunning. I don't think that's a good way to start because you take your teammates out before they can even miss for you to start gunning. Kobe can get his whenever he wants, I'm just saying he should first try get guys involved to build them up before shooting that much. 18 shots in the first half was not good no matter the lead we had. The other guys were playing well enough for him not to shoot 18 shots. Sure he helped get the lead but when one person does that, it's easier to lose that same lead as opposed to other guys chiming in. The same lead would have been much "stronger" had other guys gotten some more shots and they were doing well enough to deserve more. A couple of plays in the fourth, kobe goes coast to coast and overlooks Jamison for at least two open shots, one of which was a layup. Jamison is playing very well right now and he should have gotten those passes. Those things are frustrating for me. I want Kobe to pass at first to gauge his team's effectiveness in that particular game before going off. Sure Dwight missed free throws, turnovers, off rebounds...but this way of playing for Kobe can be very discouraging and dangerous as it can alienate his teammates. Dwight should have gotten more shots, not late in the game, but throughout. 9 is no where near enough.

Even if Kobe shot 60% this game he shouldnt have taken that many shots. That's not the point. Like the OP stated, you take your teamates out of the game. You could tell with everyone's body language (dwight especially). Who likes to bust there [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] on defense, get a rebound, and bust there [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] down the floor to have a one man show? Anyone who has ever played basketball will tell you that playing with "that guy" is extremely frustrating and NOT FUN. You could tell last night that even when we were winning guys werent having fun. Howard's body language says it all. This is exactly why players don't want to play with Kobe. He goes into kill mode and only has one gear. If kobe JUST focused on assists, he would average 15-20 a game. We would be unstoppable with the talent we have right now. As smart as he and everyone thinks he is about basketball, I just don't understand how he doesnt get this. A simple example of the game last night was when he and Jamison had a fast break and he decided to take it himself instead of just dishing to Jamison for easy two. Kobe got fouled and hit 1 of 2. These are the type of plays that KILL the team. Jamison ran his [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] off and didnt get rewarded. When players do this they end up resenting kobe, not hustling as much, and skip around the subject by stating the team has to "get everyone involved" in post game interviews.
I hate to say this, but i think Nash is the cure all. He instantly rewards the runners, get's them the ball (including kobe), and becomes the primary ball handler. His impact on D is understated. Why? because the other four players are happy and busting their [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] for him knowing they will get the ball on the other end.

jhalp wrote:Even if Kobe shot 60% this game he shouldnt have taken that many shots. Who likes to bust there [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] on defense, get a rebound, and bust there [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] down the floor to have a one man show?

Those who want to win.

Right. Nba players love being "decoys" on offense.

Kobe wants the glory...obviously the 30K mark is on his mind, we lived with it for 17 years. he'll clean it up later as he always does.

What I don't get is those posters who keep saying that these one man show doesn't affect his teammates. When he does these, chucking and not passing mode, the other guys just stand around.

lakerswiz wrote:

KareemTheGreat33 wrote:What I don't get is those posters who keep saying that these one man show doesn't affect his teammates. When he does these, chucking and not passing mode, the other guys just stand around.

Do you not see the issues with this? Kobe gets blamed for the other guys standing around?

Ever think maybe they don't get the ball...because they just stand around? I can guard two people if one is in the corner and one is on the wing and they're just going to stand there. That's one defender for two offensive players. That allows one of my teammates to go double Kobe.

And then Kobe gets doubled and the two guys on the wing he could pass to are just standing around with each other's thumbs up their butts while the defender is simply just standing there in help side effectively guarding both of them.

THEY HAVE TO MOVE. THEY HAVE TO RUN OFFENSE. Just because Kobe gets the ball doesn't mean the offense stops. Never. Not once. Kobe will pass if you cut and get open. How many times last night did he take a dribble inside the 3 point line and pull up? How many times did the guy in the opposite corner cut towards the basket once Kobe started pulling up? Kobe loves throwing that laser of a pass from the top of the key / elbow into the paint with the cutter. NO ONE DOES IT!

This isn't new! The guys just stand there and don't run the offense. Offense doesn't stop when one person gets the ball. You keep running it. You keep screening and passing away. You go get open. If you want the ball, get open. It is your job to get open. Go set a screen. The guy setting the screen ends up being left wide open more than the person getting the screen does! Set a screen, pin the guy or reverse pivot and go get open.

'Everyone just standing around' is the silliest reasoning to blame Kobe I have seen.

Really? You don't think players stand around because they know kobe is going to put it up? You think these same players will stand around when Nash has the ball in his hands? You will see a BIG difference when these guys get more touches. Kobe will make the pass sometimes. But others, like the Jamison play I referred to, he didnt. Those are the little plays that hurt team chemistry. They should expend energy and make the right cuts. But after two or three times down the court making those same cuts without even getting a look? the fourth time I'm going to sit this one back and get back on Defense early.

lakerswiz wrote:

@LakersReporter: The Lakers are 1-7 when Kobe scores at least 30 points, & 7-3 when he scores less than 30. They're 5-1 when he has 6+ assists.

These little stats are such crap. Kobe's scoring 30+ because he has too. Because the rest of the team is shooting 35% from the field. We win when he has assists because his teammates are making their shots. It's not like the guy just doesn't pass the ball.

I'd be more interested in teammates shooting percentage in games where Kobe scores 30+ vs games when he doesn't.

Last night was one of those games that Kobe needed to play distributor.

Duhon 2-4, Ron 4-7, Jamison 6-11, Dwight 4-9. That's 16-31. Kobe was 46% FG.

I can understand and urge Kobe to shoot either when he's:

1. HOT
2. Team is clanking %40 or less.

Last night. Kobe wasn't HOT. He wasn't inefficient either. Problem was his teammates who he ran the floor with were VERY efficient. You don't go ballhog mode when your teammates are playing this well. Especially a team with new players who NEEEEEEEEED to develop some kind of chemistry and trust on the floor.

More episodes like this and we will have a huge problem in the locker room. Hopefully Nash coming back will change this. As Nash won't just give Kobe the ball. He'll have to get his when Nash is on the bench.

Agree 100% with lakerwiz's point here. I've played on teams before with guys that were more skilled than me and ball hogged. What I did was set picks and rolled to the basket for offensive boards. I stayed active. And I was doing it for free just because it's what you should do when one player dominates the ball. There are two issues here: Kobe hogging and others watching. They are both issues, but to me it's close to ridiculous to insist that one causes the other, because it doesn't.

It'd be pretty sick to see our guys setting picks and running their defenders ragged off the ball. There's a few problems with that though.1. Hardly any of our best players are young and quick and 2. Let's face it, guys are going to stand around if they know Kobe's 1st and 2nd option is getting the shot up. The only way to remedy this is have D'antoni follow through on his promise to take the ball out of Kobe's hands. Guys will cut and screen when Nash is the one pounding the rock. Kobe's just too good to not get his, so I hope Nash is out there looking to get everyone else going and not pass to Kobe unless he's wide open or in perfect position for a hockey assist.

lakerswiz wrote:

jhalp wrote:

lakerswiz wrote:

KareemTheGreat33 wrote:What I don't get is those posters who keep saying that these one man show doesn't affect his teammates. When he does these, chucking and not passing mode, the other guys just stand around.

Do you not see the issues with this? Kobe gets blamed for the other guys standing around?

Ever think maybe they don't get the ball...because they just stand around? I can guard two people if one is in the corner and one is on the wing and they're just going to stand there. That's one defender for two offensive players. That allows one of my teammates to go double Kobe.

And then Kobe gets doubled and the two guys on the wing he could pass to are just standing around with each other's thumbs up their butts while the defender is simply just standing there in help side effectively guarding both of them.

THEY HAVE TO MOVE. THEY HAVE TO RUN OFFENSE. Just because Kobe gets the ball doesn't mean the offense stops. Never. Not once. Kobe will pass if you cut and get open. How many times last night did he take a dribble inside the 3 point line and pull up? How many times did the guy in the opposite corner cut towards the basket once Kobe started pulling up? Kobe loves throwing that laser of a pass from the top of the key / elbow into the paint with the cutter. NO ONE DOES IT!

This isn't new! The guys just stand there and don't run the offense. Offense doesn't stop when one person gets the ball. You keep running it. You keep screening and passing away. You go get open. If you want the ball, get open. It is your job to get open. Go set a screen. The guy setting the screen ends up being left wide open more than the person getting the screen does! Set a screen, pin the guy or reverse pivot and go get open.

'Everyone just standing around' is the silliest reasoning to blame Kobe I have seen.

Really? You don't think players stand around because they know kobe is going to put it up?

If they don't get the ball the first 2 - 3 times down the court they shouldn't cut?

Yes, they SHOULD cut. My point is when they are not involved in the game they Don't cut or become more lazy. To OP, this is the NBA, guys are REALLY GOOD. Dwights job is not to just run down the court and set screens, he's not a scrub.

Congrats to Kobe on 30k!

Incredible milestone.