Kobe Bryant Discussion: Reason for Lakers downfall?

Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby kobebryant248 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:17 am

Maluco Beleza wrote:
wcsoldier81 wrote:Repeat after me : Dribble dribble dribble ... loses the ball , complains , doesn't run back ... lay up for Indiana

lol
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yup to many to s but at least he was the only one to try to win it. oh and repeat me blah blah and hating on kobe and again blah blah blah and hating on kobe . i guess it s kind of a hobby to put constantly s... over kobe. that is not a fan in my eyes. how about the other lakers huh ? :mad1: :disagree:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby kobebryant248 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:20 am

trodgers wrote:
wcsoldier81 wrote:Repeat after me : Dribble dribble dribble ... loses the ball , complains , doesn't run back ... lay up for Indiana

You did forget something...

score half team's points, shoot better than the team, post a points per possession better than everyone else, hit clutch shots, watch his teammates brick four FTs to win the game


agree couldn t say it any better. :jam2:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby wcsoldier81 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:05 am

I think he went into the "1 vs 5" mode too soon ... thing is the last time we won a game playing Kobe ball was ... ?

I treat the Kobe thread as I do with the others players ones : it's mostly a game by game analysis ... everytime some of us bash Kobe for a subpar game , we are haters and forgot about everything he did for our franchise :man3: ... please forgive me if I am a Lakers fan 1st
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby Lakerjones on Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:50 am

kobebryant248 wrote:
trodgers wrote:
wcsoldier81 wrote:Repeat after me : Dribble dribble dribble ... loses the ball , complains , doesn't run back ... lay up for Indiana

You did forget something...

score half team's points, shoot better than the team, post a points per possession better than everyone else, hit clutch shots, watch his teammates brick four FTs to win the game


agree couldn t say it any better. :jam2:


^^ I agree as well. Great post TRodgers. Bottom line, Kobe was giving his all to win the game. Meanwhile Dwight was trying to GIVE AWAY the game with that free throwing. And the bench just did not help us much if at all last night. Pau was woeful as well. Bad D for the most part and bad shooting. Plenty of blame to go around but I don't have the heart to put Kobe in there when he is battling the flu, the refs and his team's free throwing effort and still scores 40 points and ties the game in the waning seconds with that last 3 he hit.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:28 am

Did Kobe do too much last night? Yes, for sure, the 10 turnovers show that....

But it wasn't like he was giving the cold shoulder to Reggie Miller at the 3 point line, Shaq in the post and Jordan on the wing.

The rest of the team couldn't make a basket, a free throw, and played hot potato with the ball to Kobe the whole night.

When you can't depend on D12 (Limited post game, TO prone, Free Throw nightmare)
When you can't depend on Pau (Mr. Shrugs with no hops)
When you can't depend on MWP ( Mr. In and Out)
When you can't depend on everyone else (Brickfest 2012)

What are you going to do? Rather have Kobe shooting fadeaway 3's over 2 dudes than D12 shooting a free throw or Pau going up for a sissy layup or anyone else who couldn't hit a shot last night.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby TIME on Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:24 pm

What amuses me is when certain posters claim that this site is all Kobe homers. There is more Kobe criticism here than most sites dedicated to other teams.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby wcsoldier81 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:28 pm

you never read RealGm or Spurstalk then
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby kenzo on Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:48 pm

wcsoldier81 wrote:you never read RealGm or Spurstalk then

Why would any Lakers fan read Spurstalk? :man3:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby LakerLegacy24 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:56 pm

Doc Brown wrote:Did Kobe do too much last night? Yes, for sure, the 10 turnovers show that....

But it wasn't like he was giving the cold shoulder to Reggie Miller at the 3 point line, Shaq in the post and Jordan on the wing.

The rest of the team couldn't make a basket, a free throw, and played hot potato with the ball to Kobe the whole night.

When you can't depend on D12 (Limited post game, TO prone, Free Throw nightmare)
When you can't depend on Pau (Mr. Shrugs with no hops)
When you can't depend on MWP ( Mr. In and Out)
When you can't depend on everyone else (Brickfest 2012)

What are you going to do? Rather have Kobe shooting fadeaway 3's over 2 dudes than D12 shooting a free throw or Pau going up for a sissy layup or anyone else who couldn't hit a shot last night.

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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby easyguy on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:16 pm

trodgers wrote:
KareemTheGreat33 wrote:
trodgers wrote:
wcsoldier81 wrote:Repeat after me : Dribble dribble dribble ... loses the ball , complains , doesn't run back ... lay up for Indiana

You did forget something...

score half team's points, shoot better than the team, post a points per possession better than everyone else, hit clutch shots, watch his teammates brick four FTs to win the game


What I saw was Kobe's TOs and shots without passing in several possessions made his teammates out of sync.

He made them out of sync? Isn't that ridiculous? He affected them so horribly that they couldn't hit FTs? They were just mentally shaken, shell-shocked, discombobulated?

Suppose you're right. Why did Dwight hit 7 of 10 FGs? Immune to being out of sync on FGs? Why did Gasol EXCEED his season Points per Possession?

But I don't think you are right. Because even if Kobe consumed multiple possessions in a row, over the course of the game, here is a list of players who got roughly as many possessions per minute this game as they do on the season:

Dwight, Gasol, MWP, Jamison (well above), Meeks.

You're offering a classic Easy Explanation. It doesn't fly. It doesn't jibe with the numbers.


Did you watch the game? He was forcing the issue early on. By your standard, we dont need to win the championship. All we need Kobe to do is put up Wilt's numbers and give the Lakers a Kobe's Bryant trophy at the end of the year instead of a championship trophy.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby purp n gold on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:44 pm

wcsoldier81 wrote:I think he went into the "1 vs 5" mode too soon ... thing is the last time we won a game playing Kobe ball was ... ?

I treat the Kobe thread as I do with the others players ones : it's mostly a game by game analysis ... everytime some of us bash Kobe for a subpar game , we are haters and forgot about everything he did for our franchise :man3: ... please forgive me if I am a Lakers fan 1st


I'm with you here WC.

Kobe brought it. Of course he did, he always does. But when the rest of the team is out of sync, it doesn't justify him turning on 1 vs 5 mode. Close game in the 4th with 5 mins so go? Sure, have Kobe go bananas on ISO. But throughout the 2nd and 3rd qtr? It's to the detriment of the team.

Yes, Dwight was missing his free throws. But it's also an opportunity to get the team in the bonus early, not to mention he was also 7-10 from the field. Feed him, try to get the FG's and foul the other guys out. It worked on Hibbert and it should have for Mahimi, who played 30 mins.

We praise Kobe all day when he gets his "teammates involved". The game situation called for it last night and he didn't do it. I think he should be criticized as such.

And Kobe is not a hard guy to figure out... the press had nothing to report on and said he might miss the game... Kobe takes it upon himself to prove them wrong and have a "flu game".
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby TIME on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:08 pm

purp n gold wrote:
wcsoldier81 wrote:I think he went into the "1 vs 5" mode too soon ... thing is the last time we won a game playing Kobe ball was ... ?

I treat the Kobe thread as I do with the others players ones : it's mostly a game by game analysis ... everytime some of us bash Kobe for a subpar game , we are haters and forgot about everything he did for our franchise :man3: ... please forgive me if I am a Lakers fan 1st


I'm with you here WC.

Kobe brought it. Of course he did, he always does. But when the rest of the team is out of sync, it doesn't justify him turning on 1 vs 5 mode. Close game in the 4th with 5 mins so go? Sure, have Kobe go bananas on ISO. But throughout the 2nd and 3rd qtr? It's to the detriment of the team.

Yes, Dwight was missing his free throws. But it's also an opportunity to get the team in the bonus early, not to mention he was also 7-10 from the field. Feed him, try to get the FG's and foul the other guys out. It worked on Hibbert and it should have for Mahimi, who played 30 mins.

We praise Kobe all day when he gets his "teammates involved". The game situation called for it last night and he didn't do it. I think he should be criticized as such.

And Kobe is not a hard guy to figure out... the press had nothing to report on and said he might miss the game... Kobe takes it upon himself to prove them wrong and have a "flu game".


I'll partly agree with you and partly disagree. Yes, Kobe forced things too much. I agree he should have involved Dwight more. I'd like to see him develop a killer 2 man game with Dwight. Free throws or not, Dwight should always get more than 10 attempts in a game, and especially when he is making 70% of them.

I completely disagree with the idea that Kobe should have gotten his teammates other than Dwight more involved last night. You say "the game situation called for it". What does that mean? The game situation I was watching was calling for him to keep us in the game when no one other than Dwight could make a basket.

Check the shots:

Pau = 2-9
Metta = 1-8
Morris = 0-6
Jamison = 1-7
Hil = 1-2
Duhon = 0-3
Meeks = 0-3
-------------------
Teammates other than Dwight = 5-38

I know some have implied that their horrendous shooting was somehow Kobe's fault, but that is a ridiculous assertion. Last night was one of those rare nights when almost the entire team was just ice cold. If Kobe had not gone into Kobe mode we would have been blown out. He at least gave us a chance to win.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby Ariza3 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:16 pm

Kobe did what he had to do. Guys weren't making shots, and that effected them down the stretch. Dantoni's offense thrives under free play and guys just shooting the open shot. Kobe was keeping the team in the game, and towards the end guys didn't want to shoot b/c they had been cold all game and didn't want to make their deficit even more; thus giving it to Kobe every time.

Its a mental thing...Kobe bails them out when they're too afraid to ruin the game by missing shots. at the beginning they'll shoot and miss but when the game is on the line they're too afraid and they'll feed Kobe. I think everyone but Metta has that mentality on this team including Dwight b/c whenever he tries he just gets fouled and misses 2 free throws anyways.

The team has to trust Dantoni's offense and just keep shooting the open shot even when they're not dropping. Guys have to play freely and just do the right thing. They can't force Kobe into 1v5 which is kind of what they did last night by not staying aggressive and keeping their minds clear. Guys gotta step up and if they don't then Dantoni has to play other guys...I think Ebanks should have gotten some minutes last night IMO

I think when it comes down to it, guys didn't shoot well the entire game and down the stretch didn't want to make things worse so they just gave Kobe the ball. It's a gift and a curse that Kobe can give us 40/10 in a game like this. I just think it's up to Dantoni to tweak his offense to get Pau and Dwight going very early (like the first few shots of the game) as well as guys like MWP, Meeks, and Jamison second. I think if those guys get going early then everything will be good b/c you never have to worry about Kobe getting his. This game started with Kobe and ended with Kobe and i believe that that has to change. Not b/c Kobe can't do it, but b/c of the other guy's mentalities. They gotta get going early and build that confidence to shoot down the stretch of a game like Dantoni's system wants. Once Nash and Blake get back I truly believe they'll make that happen but until then it's up to Dantoni to figure out how to get those guys involved first before Kobe. Play making Kobe until like the 2nd half worked...and will have to from now until Nash/Blake are back
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby trodgers on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:18 pm

easyguy wrote:
trodgers wrote:
KareemTheGreat33 wrote:
trodgers wrote:
wcsoldier81 wrote:Repeat after me : Dribble dribble dribble ... loses the ball , complains , doesn't run back ... lay up for Indiana

You did forget something...

score half team's points, shoot better than the team, post a points per possession better than everyone else, hit clutch shots, watch his teammates brick four FTs to win the game


What I saw was Kobe's TOs and shots without passing in several possessions made his teammates out of sync.

He made them out of sync? Isn't that ridiculous? He affected them so horribly that they couldn't hit FTs? They were just mentally shaken, shell-shocked, discombobulated?

Suppose you're right. Why did Dwight hit 7 of 10 FGs? Immune to being out of sync on FGs? Why did Gasol EXCEED his season Points per Possession?

But I don't think you are right. Because even if Kobe consumed multiple possessions in a row, over the course of the game, here is a list of players who got roughly as many possessions per minute this game as they do on the season:

Dwight, Gasol, MWP, Jamison (well above), Meeks.

You're offering a classic Easy Explanation. It doesn't fly. It doesn't jibe with the numbers.


Did you watch the game? He was forcing the issue early on. By your standard, we dont need to win the championship. All we need Kobe to do is put up Wilt's numbers and give the Lakers a Kobe's Bryant trophy at the end of the year instead of a championship trophy.

Hmm. I think you're right. I never realized my standard. But you're exactly right. I want 50 and 20 boards from Kobe with no threes. Winning be damned!
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby KJ MonK on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:25 pm

Kobe went into 1 v 5 mode long before we decided the whole team was gonna be cold
he was looking for the bigs frequently off the picks but the pacers were rotating well, then he started overdribbling... i think the only time i really noticed outright ballhogging was in the 2nd quarter after he started 5-6
Pau wasnt "cold" he was getting his shot blocked all night, then he wasn't even LOOKING to shoot, as seen by his almost-stolen pass to Dwight toward the end... and dwight cant score outside of the paint (Pacers allow least points in the paint), so Kobe was really the only option toward the end unless you'd rather Metta chuck
interesting postgame quotes: Kobe "im just tired", Metta "we need to utilize all five guys on the court and we'll win"
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby purp n gold on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:31 pm

TIME wrote:I completely disagree with the idea that Kobe should have gotten his teammates other than Dwight more involved last night. You say "the game situation called for it". What does that mean? The game situation I was watching was calling for him to keep us in the game when no one other than Dwight could make a basket.

Check the shots:

Pau = 2-9
Metta = 1-8
Morris = 0-6
Jamison = 1-7
Hil = 1-2
Duhon = 0-3
Meeks = 0-3
-------------------
Teammates other than Dwight = 5-38

I know some have implied that their horrendous shooting was somehow Kobe's fault, but that is a ridiculous assertion. Last night was one of those rare nights when almost the entire team was just ice cold. If Kobe had not gone into Kobe mode we would have been blown out. He at least gave us a chance to win.


I'm not solely blaming Kobe for the loss, nor am I holding him accountable for his teammates shooting so poorly. It was a historically bad shooting night and you're right, I would be ridiculous for putting that on Kobe.

But when the team is isn't shooting well, I don't think the remedy is to take pull up jumpers without regard to running an action or passing to an open man. He kept us in the game, no doubt. But I'm saying that there were many instances where "1 vs 5 ball" didn't help put out the fire, so to speak.

But my point lies more in this observation, which I think you agree with: Let's say Dwight makes his usual 50% of his FTs and has 20 pts instead of 17. I still think that's far too little on a night when the rest of the team is shooting poorly. Dwight needed more touches.

When we're fielding a team with Kobe Byrant and Dwight Howard having "good nights", we should beat the Pacers. I don't think it's farfetched for Dwight to have scored 24-28 pts last night solely on FGs, even with the 3/12 FTs.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby TIME on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:38 pm

KJ MonK wrote:Kobe went into 1 v 5 mode long before we decided the whole team was gonna be cold


Interesting take, but I'm not sure how you arrived at it. The team was cold from jump. 5-38 pretty much describes game long cold.

KJ MonK wrote:Pau wasnt "cold" he was getting his shot blocked all night, then he wasn't even LOOKING to shoot, as seen by his almost-stolen pass to Dwight toward the end...


Did Pau get his shot blocked 7 times? I agree he was passive, and clearly deferring, but that's not Kobe's fault, unless we are in everything is Kobe's fault mode.

KJ MonK wrote:Metta "we need to utilize all five guys on the court and we'll win"


Said the guy who shot 1-8.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby TIME on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:41 pm

purp n gold wrote:
TIME wrote:I completely disagree with the idea that Kobe should have gotten his teammates other than Dwight more involved last night. You say "the game situation called for it". What does that mean? The game situation I was watching was calling for him to keep us in the game when no one other than Dwight could make a basket.

Check the shots:

Pau = 2-9
Metta = 1-8
Morris = 0-6
Jamison = 1-7
Hil = 1-2
Duhon = 0-3
Meeks = 0-3
-------------------
Teammates other than Dwight = 5-38

I know some have implied that their horrendous shooting was somehow Kobe's fault, but that is a ridiculous assertion. Last night was one of those rare nights when almost the entire team was just ice cold. If Kobe had not gone into Kobe mode we would have been blown out. He at least gave us a chance to win.


I'm not solely blaming Kobe for the loss, nor am I holding him accountable for his teammates shooting so poorly. It was a historically bad shooting night and you're right, I would be ridiculous for putting that on Kobe.

But when the team is isn't shooting well, I don't think the remedy is to take pull up jumpers without regard to running an action or passing to an open man. He kept us in the game, no doubt. But I'm saying that there were many instances where "1 vs 5 ball" didn't help put out the fire, so to speak.

But my point lies more in this observation, which I think you agree with: Let's say Dwight makes his usual 50% of his FTs and has 20 pts instead of 17. I still think that's far too little on a night when the rest of the team is shooting poorly. Dwight needed more touches.

When we're fielding a team with Kobe Byrant and Dwight Howard having "good nights", we should beat the Pacers. I don't think it's farfetched for Dwight to have scored 24-28 pts last night solely on FGs, even with the 3/12 FTs.


You make good points about involving Dwight even more. I wish Kobe had done that. But I'm glad he stopped passing it to the 5-38 guys last night. Kobe has proven yet again recently with his string of 6+ assist games that he is willing to pass if his team produces.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby Ariza3 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:42 pm

“@JCrossover: Kobe was born to put that basketball in the hoop..”
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby King of Clutch on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:46 pm

The whole team struggled. This is a fact. But kobe needs to realize something, pau is no longer his main wingman, nor should he "eat equally" as dwight. I found a VERY disturbing statistic. Pau is taking 12.4 shots per game. Dwight is taking 10.9. If this team wants to truly improve, this MUST change. Now dwight does get fouled alot, so they're probably getting equal shots. But that still shouldn't be the case. Dwight is averaging 18ppg on 10.9 shots. pau is only getting 13.1ppg on his 12.4 shots. This team needs to understand that everyone can't "eat" equally because everyone doesn't have the same level of talent. This isn't pheonix. Dwight is infinitely better than pau, and he deserves more touches. Trying to "utilize all 5 guys equally" will only give the opposition an advantage. Hopefully kobe realizes that this team will only go as far as dwight takes them during the regular season.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby v1n5anity on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:53 pm

16 missed shots. 10 turnovers. Just terrible.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby trodgers on Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:10 pm

V1n5anity wrote:16 missed shots. 10 turnovers. Just terrible.

Cherry picker! He shot better than the team; he shot better than everyone not named Dwight. He produced more points per possession than every Laker except Gasol. So even with his TOs, he was still more efficient than just about everyone.

King of Clutch:
Howard has played about 10 more minutes that Gasol on the season. Howard has consumed 311 possessions (163 FGA, 71 Shooting Fouls Drawn, 29 AST, 48 TO). Gasol has consumed 287 possessions (182 FGA, 27 Shooting Fouls Drawn, FTA, 50 ast, 28 TO.

Howard has consumed 20.6 possessions per 36 minutes. Gasol is at 19.3 per 36. So, Dwight is making things happen with his touches more frequently Gasol even if Gasol is getting more touches (but I don't know how YOU measure I touch; I use a spreadsheet).
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby Kou on Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:23 pm

The only thing that bothers me is his turnovers, which is why we need Nash back.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby trodgers on Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:26 pm

Look, I don't think Kobe played a great game. I'm not blown away by 40 points. I'm not impressed by his assists, even if they led the team. He played a so-so game. Any time you turn it over 10 times, that's a huge red flag that something is wrong (he admitted he was trying to play to the crowd too much). What I am saying is that he's not the reason the Lakers lost.

Most obvious evidence: if anyone had hit some FTs in the last minute, it would have been tied or Lakers win.

Less obvious (but still obvious): Everyone else couldn't shoot worth a damn except Howard.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: "Flu like symptoms"

Postby King of Clutch on Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:34 pm

trodgers wrote:
V1n5anity wrote:16 missed shots. 10 turnovers. Just terrible.

Cherry picker! He shot better than the team; he shot better than everyone not named Dwight. He produced more points per possession than every Laker except Gasol. So even with his TOs, he was still more efficient than just about everyone.

King of Clutch:
Howard has played about 10 more minutes that Gasol on the season. Howard has consumed 311 possessions (163 FGA, 71 Shooting Fouls Drawn, 29 AST, 48 TO). Gasol has consumed 287 possessions (182 FGA, 27 Shooting Fouls Drawn, FTA, 50 ast, 28 TO.

Howard has consumed 20.6 possessions per 36 minutes. Gasol is at 19.3 per 36. So, Dwight is making things happen with his touches more frequently Gasol even if Gasol is getting more touches (but I don't know how YOU measure I touch; I use a spreadsheet).
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