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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:54 pm

therealdeal wrote:Kobe has tried the distributor role, he's tried the scorer role, I'm not sure what other role we want him to change to now.

Relinquish what and to whom? His shots? His defensive responsibilities? His... leadership?

If he takes less shots, that HONESTLY doesn't mean more shots for others because a lot of these guys WON'T take the open shot or they'll take a bad shot. Jamison is the king of taking contested threes right now. Dwight loves turning the ball over. Gasol has been more aggressive, but I feel like he gets blocked 2-3 times a game now; on DUNK ATTEMPTS no less. Nash could probably shoot more, but he literally won't at times even if he's open.

I understand what you're saying, but if he were to give up some of his game to the team, we'd need someone on the team capable of giving it up to. Someone who'd embrace that opportunity and COME THROUGH with it.


Did you know Earl Clark would be able to step in to the role he stepped up in to? I bet you didn't. No one did.

He was given an opportunity to shine and took it. I'm sure 3 weeks ago we could have waived Earl Clark and no one would have noticed.

I don't know if anyone would take the reins so to speak, but, Kobe is going to have to start to relinquish it first and so far that doesn't seem to be something he nor MDA appears interested in doing.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:00 pm

Did you know we tried that with all of our guards already? Meeks, Morris, Duhon, we've tried them all!

So again relinquish what to whom?
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby GoldenKnight on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:08 pm

Meeks sucks but I would rather have him back up Kobe than Morris, that dude doesn't belong in the NBA
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:36 pm

therealdeal wrote:Did you know we tried that with all of our guards already? Meeks, Morris, Duhon, we've tried them all!

So again relinquish what to whom?


I'm not sure you understand what I'm getting at here.

I'm not talking about a guard stepping up to take over minutes for Kobe. I'm talking about beginning the process of transferring this team to someone else. Maybe Dwight. I don't know. A reduction in minutes would be part of it.

Essentially, it's start the process the way they did in SA with Duncan. Clearly, Dwight wants to be the #1 guy. Ok, start that process. See how he handles it. We're not going to lose anything.

But you can't have your #1 guy be someone who is just physically incapable of playing full starters minutes at 100% efficiency (by that I mean effective on both sides of the ball). If he can only do 28 mins/game at full capacity, then that's fine, we're still going to get an awesome 28 mins.

They say Dwight wants to be the man. If we want him to stick around, then slowly give him a chance to take it by the horns and run with it.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby borri on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:39 pm

JGC wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Did you know we tried that with all of our guards already? Meeks, Morris, Duhon, we've tried them all!

So again relinquish what to whom?


I'm not sure you understand what I'm getting at here.

I'm not talking about a guard stepping up to take over minutes for Kobe. I'm talking about beginning the process of transferring this team to someone else. Maybe Dwight. I don't know. A reduction in minutes would be part of it.

Essentially, it's start the process the way they did in SA with Duncan. Clearly, Dwight wants to be the #1 guy. Ok, start that process. See how he handles it. We're not going to lose anything.

But you can't have your #1 guy be someone who is just physically incapable of playing full starters minutes at 100% efficiency (by that I mean effective on both sides of the ball). If he can only do 28 mins/game at full capacity, then that's fine, we're still going to get an awesome 28 mins.

They say Dwight wants to be the man. If we want him to stick around, then slowly give him a chance to take it by the horns and run with it.


Good lord. WTF is going on. First I agree with Let's Go Lakers. Now i agree with JGC.

The world really is coming to an end. :man12:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:47 pm

borri wrote:
JGC wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Did you know we tried that with all of our guards already? Meeks, Morris, Duhon, we've tried them all!

So again relinquish what to whom?


I'm not sure you understand what I'm getting at here.

I'm not talking about a guard stepping up to take over minutes for Kobe. I'm talking about beginning the process of transferring this team to someone else. Maybe Dwight. I don't know. A reduction in minutes would be part of it.

Essentially, it's start the process the way they did in SA with Duncan. Clearly, Dwight wants to be the #1 guy. Ok, start that process. See how he handles it. We're not going to lose anything.

But you can't have your #1 guy be someone who is just physically incapable of playing full starters minutes at 100% efficiency (by that I mean effective on both sides of the ball). If he can only do 28 mins/game at full capacity, then that's fine, we're still going to get an awesome 28 mins.

They say Dwight wants to be the man. If we want him to stick around, then slowly give him a chance to take it by the horns and run with it.


Good lord. WTF is going on. First I agree with Let's Go Lakers. Now i agree with JGC.

The world really is coming to an end. :man12:


Haha. Well, stepping out of my Lakers hat/jersey/glasses for a moment...

- You are a young player with a bright future in this league ahead of you. You've already been the mana nd you've accomplished some very good things (led team to NBA finals, multiple DPOY, etc).
- You are traded to a team and told that hey, we want you here for the next 10 years and we want you to be a part of this franchise's history
- You step on the court and you are playing next to an all-time great who is clearly on the decline, who you know needs your help, but continues to press and press about being #1 in the pecking order, takes a ton of shots but doesn't have the energy to try on defense, but then (until recently) accepts little to none of the responsibility because he's putting up the points. You're getting 5-7 shots per game on regular basis, and the front office brings in a coach that likes to do the opposite of what you like to do which is go inside and play defense.

To me, that's the FO sending mixed messages there to Dwight. Now, that doesn't justify to me how Dwight has been playing or even acting, but, I think Kobe needs to become more of that Derek Fisher type leader, and less of the on-court leader. If that makes sense. Let someone else take on that on-court leader role. Maybe it's Dwight. Maybe it's not. But it's a perfect time to try it out since our experiment has failed, we're at risk of losing Dwight, and Kobe is clearly on the decline and cannot play to 100% capacity on both sides of the ball for full starters minutes anymore.

At least that might show to Dwight, look, we are putting you on the path to take over this team, stay with us, the process has begun. Right now, they (Kobe, coaches, etc) are treating him like a role player and have been from the beginning.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby borri on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:51 pm

^^^

Wow. I can't even disagree at all with that. Kill me now. And i was on the brink of putting you on my ignore list. :man12: :man10:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:38 pm

Dwight is also physically incapable of doing it. :man10:

That's what YOU'RE missing. We really have NO ONE on the team right now that can take the reins that way. That's what I'M trying to say as well as point out that we have no perimeter option able to help shoulder the scoring load. It's well and good to say pass the torch to Dwight right now, or start doing it, but do you HONESTLY think Dwight can handle that right now? He touches the ball 2nd most in the league and yet he's not producing points and he's producing tons of turnovers. You really want MORE of that? If Dwight were 100% healthy, then I'd totally agree, but right now that doesn't make sense.

And Kobe only being effective 28 minutes a game? That's the reason people label you a hater. He can still be a top 5 player in the league playing 30+, just not 35+ or 40+ like he's been doing. You use hyperbole a lot and if you want to be taken more seriously, you should try not doing that.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:58 pm

therealdeal wrote:Dwight is also physically incapable of doing it. :man10:

That's what YOU'RE missing. We really have NO ONE on the team right now that can take the reins that way. That's what I'M trying to say as well as point out that we have no perimeter option able to help shoulder the scoring load. It's well and good to say pass the torch to Dwight right now, or start doing it, but do you HONESTLY think Dwight can handle that right now? He touches the ball 2nd most in the league and yet he's not producing points and he's producing tons of turnovers. You really want MORE of that? If Dwight were 100% healthy, then I'd totally agree, but right now that doesn't make sense.

And Kobe only being effective 28 minutes a game? That's the reason people label you a hater. He can still be a top 5 player in the league playing 30+, just not 35+ or 40+ like he's been doing. You use hyperbole a lot and if you want to be taken more seriously, you should try not doing that.


Well, whether he is incapable of it or not is obviously your opinion. And let the record shows you have said Earl Clark is a bad player. That doesn't of course, mean you can be right about Howard, you may very well be but even a broken clock is right twice a day. (I'm not saying you're a broken clock, just that you've been wrong before so I have no assurance you aren't wrong again).

By the way, where did you see that Dwight gets more touches than every player in the NBA except 1?

Also, this is where reading comprehension becomes very important. I didn't say I thought Kobe could only play 28 mins/game. You clearly aren't reading. First I said we should determine the MAXIMUM number of minutes that Kobe can play where he can give it his all on BOTH sides of the ball. And then I said that IF that number is as low as 28 mins, then so be it, at least we get a full capacity of Kobe Bryant for those 28 mins.

So you're saying that's the reason people label me a hater? Is because I said that IF Kobe can only play 28 mins/game, then so be it because at least we get Kobe at his best for 28 mins? Or, are you saying people label me a hater because they completely misread what I wrote? Because I certainly did not say he can only play 28 mins -- if that's what you are suggesting I said then you're either flat out lying or made an honest mistake. Which is it?
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:13 pm

JGC wrote:Well, whether he is incapable of it or not is obviously your opinion.
How?? Where in this season has Dwight shown he's capable of carrying the scoring load?? Are you watching games or just talking without thinking?

I happen to like Dwight and I think he'd be fine to build around, but right now he's NOT PLAYING WELL. At all! Giving him more possessions means more turnovers and more missed free throws. That's it.

JGC wrote:And let the record shows you have said Earl Clark is a bad player.

I did say that. When we first traded for him and he did NOTHING in the league to even warrant a contract. He came here, got an opportunity and is playing DIFFERENTLY than he's ever played before. He's never attacked the basket as much or as effectively, he's never defended so many types of players so effectively, and he's never shot the ball as well as he is now. Never.

Let the record show that as time goes on, people change. Mark the record on that please.
JGC wrote:That doesn't of course, mean you can be right about Howard, you may very well be but even a broken clock is right twice a day. (I'm not saying you're a broken clock, just that you've been wrong before so I have no assurance you aren't wrong again).


This sentence is both insulting and idiotic. Not that I'm calling you those things, just saying that what you're saying is so it might be when you respond again.
JGC wrote:By the way, where did you see that Dwight gets more touches than every player in the NBA except 1?

It's floating around the site and was reported this morning by Collin Cowherd on ESPN 710. The only other big man with more touches is Randolph in Memphis.

JGC wrote:Also, this is where reading comprehension becomes very important. I didn't say I thought Kobe could only play 28 mins/game. You clearly aren't reading. First I said we should determine the MAXIMUM number of minutes that Kobe can play where he can give it his all on BOTH sides of the ball. And then I said that IF that number is as low as 28 mins, then so be it, at least we get a full capacity of Kobe Bryant for those 28 mins.

This is where reading comprehension becomes very important. I never said you thought Kobe could only play 28 mins/game. You clearly aren't reading. First I said that you shouldn't use hyperbole as your point because it robs you of credability. And then I said Kobe Brayant can play effectively 30+ minutes a game. I never said anything else on the subject and any other point you made is some ridiculous way for you to try to "win" an argument. It's paper thin, and intelligent posters can pick through it easily

JGC wrote:So you're saying that's the reason people label me a hater? Is because I said that IF Kobe can only play 28 mins/game,

This is where reading comprehension becomes very important. Here is what I said:
You use hyperbole a lot and if you want to be taken more seriously, you should try not doing that.

I didn't say that the reason people label you a hater is because of this one assertion, it's because of your long history of using hyperbole to try to win arguments. Debates and arguements are best won with facts, not overblown examples.

JGC wrote:Or, are you saying people label me a hater because they completely misread what I wrote? Because I certainly did not say he can only play 28 mins -- if that's what you are suggesting I said then you're either flat out lying or made an honest mistake. Which is it?

Refer to the above. Reading Comprehension. Some people lack it. I'm not saying you lack it, just that some people do.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby borri on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:19 pm

therealdeal wrote:Dwight is also physically incapable of doing it. :man10:

That's what YOU'RE missing. We really have NO ONE on the team right now that can take the reins that way. That's what I'M trying to say as well as point out that we have no perimeter option able to help shoulder the scoring load. It's well and good to say pass the torch to Dwight right now, or start doing it, but do you HONESTLY think Dwight can handle that right now? He touches the ball 2nd most in the league and yet he's not producing points and he's producing tons of turnovers. You really want MORE of that? If Dwight were 100% healthy, then I'd totally agree, but right now that doesn't make sense.

And Kobe only being effective 28 minutes a game? That's the reason people label you a hater. He can still be a top 5 player in the league playing 30+, just not 35+ or 40+ like he's been doing. You use hyperbole a lot and if you want to be taken more seriously, you should try not doing that.


Maybe that's the case. We don't know because we really haven't tried. That's the problem. Remember in ORL, the offense started and ended with D12. It's definitely not the case here. We have D12 setting screens 17 FT from the basket. That in itself is plain idiotic.

Not everyone is like Kobe who doesn't need to get into an offensive rhythm to get going. D12 is a player who needs to get into a rhythm to get going, like 99% of NBA players.

All I know is this:

1. ORL was horrible until they draft D12.
2. With D12 ORL became an NBA power.
3. D12 is still young. He had games in P&G where he looked dominant. Problem is, our offense doesn't cater to back to the basket players. So D12 has never really gotten comfortable at all this season in his offensive role. That's hard for players not named Kobe and Lebron to adjust to.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:21 pm

borri wrote:
Maybe that's the case. We don't know because we really haven't tried. That's the problem. Remember in ORL, the offense started and ended with D12. It's definitely not the case here. We have D12 setting screens 17 FT from the basket. That in itself is plain idiotic.

Not everyone is like Kobe who doesn't need to get into an offensive rhythm to get going. D12 is a player who needs to get into a rhythm to get going, like 99% of NBA players.

But we have. Dwight touches the ball more than almost any other big man and he's just not producing like he used to. He's not physically strong enough to be the guy he was.

In Orlando, he used to do that all the time actually. Their number 1 play was high pick and roll with Dwight, he either gets an open roll to the basket, or he gets a seal against a guy deep in the paint. We can't do that here because no one respects our shooters and we don't move the ball around the perimeter.

If we're going to have Kobe do that, we have to know Howard can handle that load. Are you really convinced he can seeing how he's been this season?
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby borri on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:26 pm

therealdeal wrote:
borri wrote:
Maybe that's the case. We don't know because we really haven't tried. That's the problem. Remember in ORL, the offense started and ended with D12. It's definitely not the case here. We have D12 setting screens 17 FT from the basket. That in itself is plain idiotic.

Not everyone is like Kobe who doesn't need to get into an offensive rhythm to get going. D12 is a player who needs to get into a rhythm to get going, like 99% of NBA players.

But we have. Dwight touches the ball more than almost any other big man and he's just not producing like he used to. He's not physically strong enough to be the guy he was.

In Orlando, he used to do that all the time actually. Their number 1 play was high pick and roll with Dwight, he either gets an open roll to the basket, or he gets a seal against a guy deep in the paint. We can't do that here because no one respects our shooters and we don't move the ball around the perimeter.

If we're going to have Kobe do that, we have to know Howard can handle that load. Are you really convinced he can seeing how he's been this season?


I get where you are coming from. I do. I still don't think he's getting as many touches as he needs. Shoot me the stat on # of touches. Compare that to his ORL days. Compared that to Bynum's touches last year for us. I am interested to analyze it.

Am I convinced, not 100%. But we gotta try something. What we're doing now ain't working that much is clear. What do we have to lose? At the very least try to appease D12. Last thing we want is to suck, miss the playoffs AND lose D12 this summer.

It would shed some light into this debate. More info please. I am too damn lazy to do it.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:22 pm

^ Me too. :man10:

my info came directly from the radio so I wouldn't know where to look for comparative information. I'd venture a guess that the touches are simply giving different results. I'd also venture to guess that Bynum's touches were more post oriented, Howard's are more pick and roll oriented. (Not getting crazy here :man10:)

I know what you're saying about "well we might as well try" but I just think the best move would be getting rid of Gasol in an effort to give us one or two players that will just help Nash/Bryant NOT have to do everything. I think that would give us a boost easily.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:34 pm

borri wrote:
I get where you are coming from. I do. I still don't think he's getting as many touches as he needs. Shoot me the stat on # of touches. Compare that to his ORL days. Compared that to Bynum's touches last year for us. I am interested to analyze it.

Am I convinced, not 100%. But we gotta try something. What we're doing now ain't working that much is clear. What do we have to lose? At the very least try to appease D12. Last thing we want is to suck, miss the playoffs AND lose D12 this summer.

It would shed some light into this debate. More info please. I am too damn lazy to do it.


Well the big stat of the day is that he gets the 2nd most touches among centers in the league.

Seems like a decent amount, no?
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:39 pm

therealdeal wrote:
JGC wrote:Well, whether he is incapable of it or not is obviously your opinion.
How?? Where in this season has Dwight shown he's capable of carrying the scoring load?? Are you watching games or just talking without thinking?

I happen to like Dwight and I think he'd be fine to build around, but right now he's NOT PLAYING WELL. At all! Giving him more possessions means more turnovers and more missed free throws. That's it.


Where in the season did Earl show he would be capable of contributing in any manner whatsoever until he was given the opportunity? The reality is that I don't know if Dwight can and neither do you. And I never even said he would seize the opportunity. I'm saying we haven't given him the chance, the same way we never gave Earl a chance but look what happened when we did.

therealdeal wrote:
JGC wrote:And let the record shows you have said Earl Clark is a bad player.

I did say that. When we first traded for him and he did NOTHING in the league to even warrant a contract. He came here, got an opportunity and is playing DIFFERENTLY than he's ever played before. He's never attacked the basket as much or as effectively, he's never defended so many types of players so effectively, and he's never shot the ball as well as he is now. Never.

Let the record show that as time goes on, people change. Mark the record on that please.


Noted on the record! Haha. And you're right about Earl. When he was given the opportunity, he seized it even though he didn't ever appear capable of doing so. Has Dwight shown the capability to seize the opportunity? Not yet, but he has not been given that opportunity yet. He's been treated like a role player even though he was told he was much more important than that. He's supposed to be our future, but we're not treating him like it at all. The original idea was that when Kobe is done, he/we would hand the keys to Dwight, but I'm suggesting we take a phased approach to this.

therealdeal wrote:
JGC wrote:That doesn't of course, mean you can be right about Howard, you may very well be but even a broken clock is right twice a day. (I'm not saying you're a broken clock, just that you've been wrong before so I have no assurance you aren't wrong again).


This sentence is both insulting and idiotic. Not that I'm calling you those things, just saying that what you're saying is so it might be when you respond again.


I apologize if it was insulting. But, my point is that you were wrong about Earl, as many of us were too, so maybe we're wrong about Dwight. He's had success. HUGE success. Hasn't had it here, and maybe we need to start looking for opportunities to help him succeed the way he has with other teams. Why wouldn't we want to do this? He's supposed to be a Laker for the next decade.

therealdeal wrote:
JGC wrote:By the way, where did you see that Dwight gets more touches than every player in the NBA except 1?

It's floating around the site and was reported this morning by Collin Cowherd on ESPN 710. The only other big man with more touches is Randolph in Memphis.


I'm sorry, I didn't see that report but I will never believe that Dwight touches the ball the 2nd most in the league like you're asserting. There's a gazillion guards that touch the ball more than he does. Either the report is wrong or you misheard it. There is absolutely no way Dwight gets more touches than every player in the league but 1.

therealdeal wrote:
JGC wrote:Also, this is where reading comprehension becomes very important. I didn't say I thought Kobe could only play 28 mins/game. You clearly aren't reading. First I said we should determine the MAXIMUM number of minutes that Kobe can play where he can give it his all on BOTH sides of the ball. And then I said that IF that number is as low as 28 mins, then so be it, at least we get a full capacity of Kobe Bryant for those 28 mins.

This is where reading comprehension becomes very important. I never said you thought Kobe could only play 28 mins/game. You clearly aren't reading. First I said that you shouldn't use hyperbole as your point because it robs you of credability. And then I said Kobe Brayant can play effectively 30+ minutes a game. I never said anything else on the subject and any other point you made is some ridiculous way for you to try to "win" an argument. It's paper thin, and intelligent posters can pick through it easily


You said, and I quote... "And Kobe only being effective 28 minutes a game? That's the reason people label you a hater."

I never said Kobe would only be effective 28 mins a game. Ever. What I did say is that I'd like the team to find whatever number of minutes Kobe can play 100% on both sides of the ball. If he can only muster 28 mins at maximum efficiency, then that's the maximum number of minutes he should get. If it's 30, fine. I don't care about the number. I just care about the efficiency.

Bottom line is if our #1 guy is incapable of playing full starters minutes at maximum capacity, and we made a major trade to bring in a guy who is supposed be the heir apparent to this team, then maybe we start laying the foundation for this heir apparent to succeed rather than treating him like a guy who should just rebound and block shots so we can wear out our current #1 guy so much so that he doesn't even have the energy to try on defense.

The worst thing that can happen by trying to appease more to Dwight is what, he's not interested or can't seize the opportunity and we go something like 16-24 the rest of the way and lose him anyway. (And to Borri's point, what we're doing now isn't working. And we're not a small tweak away from being elite. We need to make a FUNDAMENTAL change.) Doesn't mean we have to kick Kobe to the curb, I'm just saying, let's start the conversation, let's get the process rolling, let's phase this approach the way the Spurs did with Duncan to Parker.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:50 pm

I want to state for the record that the current conversation between Real and JGC has this poster tickled. :bow: I applaud Real for attempting to find understanding a reason with JGC's notion that Kobe needs to pass the torch. Seeing as the Lakers fans biggest complaints have been Dwight not being able to handle the load, Pau not being agressive enough or playing defense, Steve not being agressive and turning the ball over and MWP being MWP I cannot seem to see a player to "pass the torch" too. I guess Jordan Hill was a good choice I mean he got all sorts of praise from Lakers fans until he got hurt. Ahh that leaves the one an only Earl "the new pearl" Clark. I read somewhere he was a lottery pick so that must mean he is a center piece on a team, right? In any case, I am enjoying the debate.... Round 15? :bow:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby borri on Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:52 pm

phoenixrisingla wrote:
borri wrote:
I get where you are coming from. I do. I still don't think he's getting as many touches as he needs. Shoot me the stat on # of touches. Compare that to his ORL days. Compared that to Bynum's touches last year for us. I am interested to analyze it.

Am I convinced, not 100%. But we gotta try something. What we're doing now ain't working that much is clear. What do we have to lose? At the very least try to appease D12. Last thing we want is to suck, miss the playoffs AND lose D12 this summer.

It would shed some light into this debate. More info please. I am too damn lazy to do it.


Well the big stat of the day is that he gets the 2nd most touches among centers in the league.

Seems like a decent amount, no?


If you accept it at face value sure. I for one don't rush to judgement based on one stat. I'd like to know who the #1 guy is. How many touches does he get. How many touches does D12 get. How many touches did D12 get as a Laker prior to Antoni's arrival. How many touches did D12 get in ORL. I bring up Bynum because clearly he's at very least D12's equal on the offensive end. etc.

Most importantly how many touches does the #1 guy get in comparison to # of offensive possession. How many touches does D12 get in comparison to the total # of offensive possession the Lakers have per game.

Stuff like. Paints a much clearer picture. Else we are just throwing out numbers without any basis on which to apply those numbers.

This is CL...we come strong and prepared!!!! :jam2:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:07 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:I want to state for the record that the current conversation between Real and JGC has this poster tickled. :bow: I applaud Real for attempting to find understanding a reason with JGC's notion that Kobe needs to pass the torch. Seeing as the Lakers fans biggest complaints have been Dwight not being able to handle the load, Pau not being agressive enough or playing defense, Steve not being agressive and turning the ball over and MWP being MWP I cannot seem to see a player to "pass the torch" too. I guess Jordan Hill was a good choice I mean he got all sorts of praise from Lakers fans until he got hurt. Ahh that leaves the one an only Earl "the new pearl" Clark. I read somewhere he was a lottery pick so that must mean he is a center piece on a team, right? In any case, I am enjoying the debate.... Round 15? :bow:


I didn't say pass the torch. I implied share the torch. Maybe have Dwight light it. I don't know. I'm saying start that process. Tony Parker didn't become the main guy for the Spurs over night. It was a process. And a process that took time. The original plan was for Kobe to hold the torch and hold it alone until he didn't want to. But maybe we should consider revising that a bit and taking more of a phased approach with this the way the Spurs did.

When Dwight was acquired, he was told he was brought here to eventually be the FACE of this franchise. I don't think the team, coaches or Kobe for that matter, have been treating him the way you'd expect to treat the future face of your franchise for the next 10 years.

The reason I'm suggesting it, is because Kobe is at a point in his career where he cannot play effectively for full starters minutes. He's trying. But I just think it's wrong to essentially tell the future face of your franchise that you're still a distant #3 behind a guy who can't play at his optimal level for starters minutes and another guy who is nearly literally over the hill. And especially so when you've been gushing about how he is the future when he got here.

So what I would like to see, is for Kobe to take on the role of Derek Fisher a little more. A guy who brings people together. An emotional leader. A unifier. And let someone else step in to that on-court leader a little more and see what they can do. Your on-court leader can't be taking plays off on the defensive end. That isn't going to work. It sets a bad example and it is frustrating to the other players. So START to pass the torch just a little bit and then more over time to someone who physically CAN do it on the court. See what happens. It might not work but all we're doing now is wearing Kobe out just to lose.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:08 pm

borri wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:
borri wrote:
I get where you are coming from. I do. I still don't think he's getting as many touches as he needs. Shoot me the stat on # of touches. Compare that to his ORL days. Compared that to Bynum's touches last year for us. I am interested to analyze it.

Am I convinced, not 100%. But we gotta try something. What we're doing now ain't working that much is clear. What do we have to lose? At the very least try to appease D12. Last thing we want is to suck, miss the playoffs AND lose D12 this summer.

It would shed some light into this debate. More info please. I am too damn lazy to do it.


Well the big stat of the day is that he gets the 2nd most touches among centers in the league.

Seems like a decent amount, no?


If you accept it at face value sure. I for one don't rush to judgement based on one stat. I'd like to know who the #1 guy is. How many touches does he get. How many touches does D12 get. How many touches did D12 get as a Laker prior to Antoni's arrival. How many touches did D12 get in ORL. I bring up Bynum because clearly he's at very least D12's equal on the offensive end. etc.

Most importantly how many touches does the #1 guy get in comparison to # of offensive possession. How many touches does D12 get in comparison to the total # of offensive possession the Lakers have per game.

Stuff like. Paints a much clearer picture. Else we are just throwing out numbers without any basis on which to apply those numbers.

This is CL...we come strong and prepared!!!! :jam2:


And WHERE do he get those touches? (Sounds dirty, I know).

And honestly, which center should be getting more touches than Dwight freaking Howard?
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:10 pm

borri wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:
borri wrote:
I get where you are coming from. I do. I still don't think he's getting as many touches as he needs. Shoot me the stat on # of touches. Compare that to his ORL days. Compared that to Bynum's touches last year for us. I am interested to analyze it.

Am I convinced, not 100%. But we gotta try something. What we're doing now ain't working that much is clear. What do we have to lose? At the very least try to appease D12. Last thing we want is to suck, miss the playoffs AND lose D12 this summer.

It would shed some light into this debate. More info please. I am too damn lazy to do it.


Well the big stat of the day is that he gets the 2nd most touches among centers in the league.

Seems like a decent amount, no?


If you accept it at face value sure. I for one don't rush to judgement based on one stat. I'd like to know who the #1 guy is. How many touches does he get. How many touches does D12 get. How many touches did D12 get as a Laker prior to Antoni's arrival. How many touches did D12 get in ORL. I bring up Bynum because clearly he's at very least D12's equal on the offensive end. etc.

Most importantly how many touches does the #1 guy get in comparison to # of offensive possession. How many touches does D12 get in comparison to the total # of offensive possession the Lakers have per game.

Stuff like. Paints a much clearer picture. Else we are just throwing out numbers without any basis on which to apply those numbers.

This is CL...we come strong and prepared!!!! :jam2:


Image
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/howardw01.html

Here's a little more for ya then, hope you're hungry.

He's BARELY below his career usage rate as well.

You can pick and choose which stats you want to hear if you prefer, that doesnt make them less factual.

He's getting the ball and he's getting touches. He cant get post position, he cant set a pick, he cant roll to the hoop, he doesnt have post moves, he brings the ball down to be stripped, and he doesnt have a jump shot.

Thank god his defense is still awesome. :jam2:

:man12:
Last edited by phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby Chillbongo on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:11 pm

JGC wrote:And honestly, which center should be getting more touches than Dwight freaking Howard?

^ Pre-2011 Gasol. Lamarcus Aldridge. Chris Bosh. I can list more. (We're talking about offense)

Dwight's offense is like seeing all the stars in the LA night sky. Might be there, but you definitely ain't seeing it.
Last edited by Chillbongo on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby karacha on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:11 pm

Basically, Dwight is a scrub, right? There are many centers better then him, since he can't do anything. Or maybe -- just maybe -- something else is the problem?
"It's not realistic to get younger and better when you only have the veteran's minimum to offer free agents." :mhihi:

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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby Chillbongo on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:13 pm

karacha wrote:Basically, Dwight is a scrub, right? There are many centers better then him, since he can't do anything. Or maybe -- just maybe -- something else is the problem?


Obviously not. But he's not the Laker's franchise player, or necessarily a max-deal player following this back injury.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby karacha on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:19 pm

We should take this to the Dwight thread now, but let me just post this -- since some posters are not happy with Dwight's offense:

among centers, Dwight, who is recovering from back surgery, is #5 in PPG. He scores a whopping 1.9 pts less then #1 Lopez. But he is shooting slightly higher % then other top 4 centers. He out-rebounds #1 by 4.5 (!!) RPG, and gets .4 blocks more, while playing better individual defense. What an offensive disaster, right?

If Dwight had some young, quick players, and shooters to spread to floor -- he would own. All that while still recovering, mind you.
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