Kobe Bryant Discussion:#3 All Time!

Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby jlkr on Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:46 pm

We are firmly in old Kobe territory now. Get over it. This day has taken a lot longer than I expected, but it's pretty much here. He was already slow defensively before his injury. His recent transition game hasn't impressed that much either. Coming off his injuries, his ability to get by on athleticism will be even less than before. His game will be more smarts, positioning, footwork and facilitation than ever before.

That said, it will still be very instructive to watch him now, hopefully plenty of opportunity for you young "I'll live forever" whippersnappers to pick up "smart" b-ball IQ tips from him this year. You post players watch his footwork down there, it's as good as Duncan's.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby lakerfan2 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:54 pm

Kobe's footwork is a lot better than Duncan's. Part of Duncan's post work involves being a 7ft power forward on top of being a smart post player. But Kobe's use of footwork is only rivaled by MJ and Hakeem.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby Battle Tested20 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:50 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Battle Tested20 wrote:
Armani wrote:Kobe will likely put up Wizards Jordan type numbers... 20 points, 5 assists, 5 bounds @ 40-45 FG%. Ideally it's closer to 45 and it doesn't take him 20 shots to get 20 points. I expect him to be good but nowhere close to 2013. His defense will probably be average. I don't imagine he suddenly starts playing great D at this stage in his career, especially since he's still carrying the load on offense.

he'll put up more than 20 ppg, guarantee it!

I think his stat line will look like this. 25.7 ppg, 6.3 ast, 5.7 rpg. on 47 fg%


LOL. If you take away the first few years when Kobe came off the bench and only count the games he has started, his career ppg is around 27 ppg. And you think THIS version of Kobe will average close to 26 ppg? Man, give me some of that Kool-Aid you are drinking.


We'll see, I'm still bookmarking this
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby laakers on Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:38 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:Kobe is 36, has unbelievable mileage on his legs and is coming off of two series leg injuries, one of which (Achilies) is the killer of robbing an athlete of their explosion. And the injury occurred on his left foot, which means it's the foot he plants and explodes off of. These are the facts and irrefutable. How am I hating? I'm just being realistic here.

Yes, I expect Kobe to play with great skills and IQ and regularly make plays that amaze us. But what he doesn't bring in transition (he is a wing player) and on the defensive end, he will be hard to watch sometimes.


Yes, he will be worse. That's for sure. But we're talking about Kobe Bryant, a man who is still battling to be the GOAT. Yes, he has that opportunity. What he needs to do is win another ring. He's not going to let some injury stop him - he never has.

See, my version of me being "realistic" is that Kobe loses a step, will be hard to watch sometimes, but is still a go-to scorer. And if everything goes right, Lin does well, Randle grows up QUICKLY, I see no reason why after semi-sucking this season, we get a big piece the summer after that, maybe a good C/SF, we have a chance to contend. That's "realistic" to me. Obviously, I'm just guessing and being extremely optimistic, but that's the way I like to think. I would much rather think like that than be negative and say that Kobe is going to suck. Maybe that's not your intention, but that's how it sounds to me.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:07 am

laakers wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:Kobe is 36, has unbelievable mileage on his legs and is coming off of two series leg injuries, one of which (Achilies) is the killer of robbing an athlete of their explosion. And the injury occurred on his left foot, which means it's the foot he plants and explodes off of. These are the facts and irrefutable. How am I hating? I'm just being realistic here.

Yes, I expect Kobe to play with great skills and IQ and regularly make plays that amaze us. But what he doesn't bring in transition (he is a wing player) and on the defensive end, he will be hard to watch sometimes.


Yes, he will be worse. That's for sure. But we're talking about Kobe Bryant, a man who is still battling to be the GOAT. Yes, he has that opportunity. What he needs to do is win another ring. He's not going to let some injury stop him - he never has.

See, my version of me being "realistic" is that Kobe loses a step, will be hard to watch sometimes, but is still a go-to scorer. And if everything goes right, Lin does well, Randle grows up QUICKLY, I see no reason why after semi-sucking this season, we get a big piece the summer after that, maybe a good C/SF, we have a chance to contend. That's "realistic" to me. Obviously, I'm just guessing and being extremely optimistic, but that's the way I like to think. I would much rather think like that than be negative and say that Kobe is going to suck. Maybe that's not your intention, but that's how it sounds to me.


That's some serious Kool-Aid you are drinking. I'm sorry but I can't do that. I always try to be objective, even when people think I'm not trying to be objective.

We'll just have to see.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:12 am

Battle Tested20 wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Battle Tested20 wrote:
Armani wrote:Kobe will likely put up Wizards Jordan type numbers... 20 points, 5 assists, 5 bounds @ 40-45 FG%. Ideally it's closer to 45 and it doesn't take him 20 shots to get 20 points. I expect him to be good but nowhere close to 2013. His defense will probably be average. I don't imagine he suddenly starts playing great D at this stage in his career, especially since he's still carrying the load on offense.

he'll put up more than 20 ppg, guarantee it!

I think his stat line will look like this. 25.7 ppg, 6.3 ast, 5.7 rpg. on 47 fg%


LOL. If you take away the first few years when Kobe came off the bench and only count the games he has started, his career ppg is around 27 ppg. And you think THIS version of Kobe will average close to 26 ppg? Man, give me some of that Kool-Aid you are drinking.


We'll see, I'm still bookmarking this


Put it in your sic. I don't care. There is no way in hell he will average anything close to 26 ppg unless if he takes like 25 shots every game and goes completely iso ball. It will be a struggle. He will have to work that much harder just to get his shots off. Without the lift, quickness and explosion he used to have, those contested jumpers won't be as easy, those forays to the basket won't be as successful and his transition game and D will be non-existent. It's the reality of someone with Kobe's legs and what they have been through. You guys are in for a serious disappointment if you think he will average anything close to 26 ppg and play at an elite level like he used too. Prime years exist for a reason. No one stays at the elite level forever.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby lakerfan2 on Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:15 am

See, you can't be objective with Kobe. Guy has a severe ankle sprain, plays the next game. Fine. Guy tears a ligament in his shooting hand, still averages 25+ppg.

ANYONE else that would be multiple weeks out. Yes, we did see Kobe go down after his first real serious injury. His knee injury might not have been as serious, and he decided to just take the season off due to lost cause and have more time to rehab.

You don't know that. You don't know what Kobe's current situation is. You don't know his mindset approaching the return. You're not being objective, you're being pessimistic.

Go worry about Blake Griffin.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:27 am

lakerfan2 wrote:See, you can't be objective with Kobe. Guy has a severe ankle sprain, plays the next game. Fine. Guy tears a ligament in his shooting hand, still averages 25+ppg.

ANYONE else that would be multiple weeks out. Yes, we did see Kobe go down after his first real serious injury. His knee injury might not have been as serious, and he decided to just take the season off due to lost cause and have more time to rehab.

You don't know that. You don't know what Kobe's current situation is. You don't know his mindset approaching the return. You're not being objective, you're being pessimistic.

Go worry about Blake Griffin.


Let me ask you a question. Do you expect Kobe to play at an elite level forever? I'm assuming your answer is no correct? And if so, what would be the reason he won't be able to play at an elite level anymore? Would it be because he won't try hard enough or put in the work? Of course not. So what is it? Why does the level of any great player drop off at some point? Yeah, pretty obvious answer, you can't do it physically anymore. The mind is willing but the body is not.

I think Kobe has reached the point where his body will no longer allow him to do what he wants to do. Again, I concede he will wow us on a regular basis with his off the charts skills and IQ despite being limited physically. But he won't be elite in the sense that he will be able dominate on a consistent basis. You will be shocked at how little lift and explosion he has. You can save this post if you want and rub it in my face if I'm wrong.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby LTLakerFan on Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:35 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
laakers wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:Kobe is 36, has unbelievable mileage on his legs and is coming off of two series leg injuries, one of which (Achilies) is the killer of robbing an athlete of their explosion. And the injury occurred on his left foot, which means it's the foot he plants and explodes off of. These are the facts and irrefutable. How am I hating? I'm just being realistic here.

Yes, I expect Kobe to play with great skills and IQ and regularly make plays that amaze us. But what he doesn't bring in transition (he is a wing player) and on the defensive end, he will be hard to watch sometimes.


Yes, he will be worse. That's for sure. But we're talking about Kobe Bryant, a man who is still battling to be the GOAT. Yes, he has that opportunity. What he needs to do is win another ring. He's not going to let some injury stop him - he never has.

See, my version of me being "realistic" is that Kobe loses a step, will be hard to watch sometimes, but is still a go-to scorer. And if everything goes right, Lin does well, Randle grows up QUICKLY, I see no reason why after semi-sucking this season, we get a big piece the summer after that, maybe a good C/SF, we have a chance to contend. That's "realistic" to me. Obviously, I'm just guessing and being extremely optimistic, but that's the way I like to think. I would much rather think like that than be negative and say that Kobe is going to suck. Maybe that's not your intention, but that's how it sounds to me.


That's some serious Kool-Aid you are drinking. I'm sorry but I can't do that. I always try to be objective, even when people think I'm not trying to be objective.

We'll just have to see.


You know LGL…Screw you and your kool aid crack. I agree with laakers' post and think it will wind up being a more accurate call on Kobe this year than yours'. So stick it with that kind of talk. There's many of us here you're calling out with it. Your posting history and style isn't so slick around here lately….remember? :boxing1:
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby lakerfan2 on Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:54 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
lakerfan2 wrote:See, you can't be objective with Kobe. Guy has a severe ankle sprain, plays the next game. Fine. Guy tears a ligament in his shooting hand, still averages 25+ppg.

ANYONE else that would be multiple weeks out. Yes, we did see Kobe go down after his first real serious injury. His knee injury might not have been as serious, and he decided to just take the season off due to lost cause and have more time to rehab.

You don't know that. You don't know what Kobe's current situation is. You don't know his mindset approaching the return. You're not being objective, you're being pessimistic.

Go worry about Blake Griffin.


Let me ask you a question. Do you expect Kobe to play at an elite level forever? I'm assuming your answer is no correct? And if so, what would be the reason he won't be able to play at an elite level anymore? Would it be because he won't try hard enough or put in the work? Of course not. So what is it? Why does the level of any great player drop off at some point? Yeah, pretty obvious answer, you can't do it physically anymore. The mind is willing but the body is not.

I think Kobe has reached the point where his body will no longer allow him to do what he wants to do. Again, I concede he will wow us on a regular basis with his off the charts skills and IQ despite being limited physically. But he won't be elite in the sense that he will be able dominate on a consistent basis. You will be shocked at how little lift and explosion he has. You can save this post if you want and rub it in my face if I'm wrong.


Where the hell did anyone say about Kobe dominating anywhere? No one said that in any part of their comments, yet you decide to inject that into this conversation.

Everyone is predicting Kobe to be in and around the 20ppg mark. For one of the most prolific scorers in the entire league, that's being modest. No one said Kobe would be taking over games, or dominating players or playing at elite levels. We're predicting that Kobe will still get his numbers, but not in the same fashion we're used to.

Kobe said himself it's not going to be the same. Why do you feel the need to repeat stuff that everyone already knows? You don't think we understand that? Or maybe it's you who still doesn't get that this is Kobe we're talking about, and not a player who quit basketball to try baseball, and retired for 3 years and came back.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby gcclaker on Fri Aug 22, 2014 10:57 am

^Let's keep it civil gents...

Bryant did show some solid play last season before the leg injury but it took a few games for him to get it together. Will he be 24 of old? The explosion? The separation? The lift? No. He will compensate by relying on his knowledge of the angles then using his footwork around or over defenders. I really think he will labor again adapting to game speed. 24 probably will not reach that "elite" level we are accustomed to but he won't be a scrub and a liability out there either.

The 20 point per game prediction is reasonable. No one has implied he will dominate like he used to. To do so would be foolish.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby lukewaltonsdad on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:14 am

gcclaker wrote:^Let's keep it civil gents...

Bryant did show some solid play last season before the leg injury but it took a few games for him to get it together. Will he be 24 of old? The explosion? The separation? The lift? No. He will compensate by relying on his knowledge of the angles then using his footwork around or over defenders. I really think he will labor again adapting to game speed. 24 probably will not reach that "elite" level we are accustomed to but he won't be a scrub and a liability out there either.

The 20 point per game prediction is reasonable. No one has implied he will dominate like he used to. To do so would be foolish.


Kobe's last game was against Memphis; against Tony Allen one of the better defenders in the league.

Kobe's numbers
33 min
21 pts
9-18 FG
5 Reb
4 Assists
4 TO's.

I recently watched the game last week; this was a Kobe who didn't go through his regular summer training regimen and was trying to play himself back into shape while facilitating on the court because we had no healthy point guard at the time if memory serves...Kobe is going to score. I'd say he'll average right around 45% 22 ppg, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, playing 30 minutes.

The key with Kobe is convincing him to reduce his minutes and maintaining his health for an 82 game period. That's on Byron. He can't handle the load of facilitating and competing on both ends of the floor at an elite level for 37-38 minutes a game...those days are gone. He could still be effective, though...also, the addition of Lin will help take some pressure off as well...
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:39 am

lakerfan2 wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:
lakerfan2 wrote:See, you can't be objective with Kobe. Guy has a severe ankle sprain, plays the next game. Fine. Guy tears a ligament in his shooting hand, still averages 25+ppg.

ANYONE else that would be multiple weeks out. Yes, we did see Kobe go down after his first real serious injury. His knee injury might not have been as serious, and he decided to just take the season off due to lost cause and have more time to rehab.

You don't know that. You don't know what Kobe's current situation is. You don't know his mindset approaching the return. You're not being objective, you're being pessimistic.

Go worry about Blake Griffin.


Let me ask you a question. Do you expect Kobe to play at an elite level forever? I'm assuming your answer is no correct? And if so, what would be the reason he won't be able to play at an elite level anymore? Would it be because he won't try hard enough or put in the work? Of course not. So what is it? Why does the level of any great player drop off at some point? Yeah, pretty obvious answer, you can't do it physically anymore. The mind is willing but the body is not.

I think Kobe has reached the point where his body will no longer allow him to do what he wants to do. Again, I concede he will wow us on a regular basis with his off the charts skills and IQ despite being limited physically. But he won't be elite in the sense that he will be able dominate on a consistent basis. You will be shocked at how little lift and explosion he has. You can save this post if you want and rub it in my face if I'm wrong.


Where the hell did anyone say about Kobe dominating anywhere? No one said that in any part of their comments, yet you decide to inject that into this conversation.

Everyone is predicting Kobe to be in and around the 20ppg mark. For one of the most prolific scorers in the entire league, that's being modest. No one said Kobe would be taking over games, or dominating players or playing at elite levels. We're predicting that Kobe will still get his numbers, but not in the same fashion we're used to.

Kobe said himself it's not going to be the same. Why do you feel the need to repeat stuff that everyone already knows? You don't think we understand that? Or maybe it's you who still doesn't get that this is Kobe we're talking about, and not a player who quit basketball to try baseball, and retired for 3 years and came back.


Oh please. TRD said his FLOOR would be Wizard's MJ while I said that's probably his CEILILNG. That is a huge disparity in opinions. And BattleTested20 thinks Kobe will average close to 26 ppg. Anyone who can average 26 ppg is an elite player.

You guys can try to back track and sugar coat what you already said but I read these comments. Like I said, it's pointless to go back and forth about the future. Let's see what plays out.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby therealdeal on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:51 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:Oh please. TRD said his FLOOR would be Wizard's MJ while I said that's probably his CEILILNG.

1. That's completely taken out of context. Here's what I actually said:
therealdeal wrote:I honestly think Kobe will look better physically than people are preparing themselves for, but think Jordan on the Wizards as his floor. He'll be able to get his post up jumper off because that shot really isn't about lift, it's about footwork and body positioning.

As in Kobe's floor will be what Jordan looked like on the Wizards in terms of his physical abilities. That's what I said. I didn't say Kobe's floor would be Jordan's production or the way he dresses or anything else. I said his physical abilities will AT LEAST be an older Jordan on the Wizards who used his savvy to score, not his athleticism. I didn't compare their stats, just the way Kobe will look on the floor. I have a background in athletics and am familiar with injuries like the ones Kobe has faced. They'll limit him, but not as badly as you're trying to say they will. He won't be a cripple. He won't look like Steve Nash. He'll look like an older guy playing with young men, but that doesn't mean he won't out think them.

2. Regardless of the fact that you took what I said out of context, I stand by your misrepresentation of me. Do you even realize what Jordan's numbers were with the Wizards? In two years with them:

21.45 ppg
5.9 rpg
4.5 apg
1.45 stls pg
0.45 blks pg
2.4 tos pg
43% FG
24% 3PT
80.6% FT
~ 35 min. pg

That's where I expect Kobe to be. In fact I expect him to be better in some areas than that (namely outside shooting and assists). I don't expect him to average that many steals, but he should come close to that point production.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby gcclaker on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:52 am

lukewaltonsdad wrote:
gcclaker wrote:^Let's keep it civil gents...

Bryant did show some solid play last season before the leg injury but it took a few games for him to get it together. Will he be 24 of old? The explosion? The separation? The lift? No. He will compensate by relying on his knowledge of the angles then using his footwork around or over defenders. I really think he will labor again adapting to game speed. 24 probably will not reach that "elite" level we are accustomed to but he won't be a scrub and a liability out there either.

The 20 point per game prediction is reasonable. No one has implied he will dominate like he used to. To do so would be foolish.


Kobe's last game was against Memphis; against Tony Allen one of the better defenders in the league.

Kobe's numbers
33 min
21 pts
9-18 FG
5 Reb
4 Assists
4 TO's.

I recently watched the game last week; this was a Kobe who didn't go through his regular summer training regimen and was trying to play himself back into shape while facilitating on the court because we had no healthy point guard at the time if memory serves...Kobe is going to score. I'd say he'll average right around 45% 22 ppg, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, playing 30 minutes.

The key with Kobe is convincing him to reduce his minutes and maintaining his health for an 82 game period. That's on Byron. He can't handle the load of facilitating and competing on both ends of the floor at an elite level for 37-38 minutes a game...those days are gone. He could still be effective, though...also, the addition of Lin will help take some pressure off as well...

You're right. Nash was out at the time. 24 had to take on a dual role. I just read that he lost weight so that would help what is left of his mobility. I would believe he and Scott will work to find a common ground regarding his minutes. The key is Bryant's patience. Will he tolerate teammates bumbling around...digging a hole for themselves?

Lin is aggressive enough to try and make plays on his own. I don't think he will ease off or passively defer like Sessions did. If Bryant's rehab is far along as it should then training camp will be much easier and the transition to game speed will be less of a hurdle.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby Juronimo on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:55 am

gcclaker wrote:^Let's keep it civil gents...

Bryant did show some solid play last season before the leg injury but it took a few games for him to get it together. Will he be 24 of old? The explosion? The separation? The lift? No. He will compensate by relying on his knowledge of the angles then using his footwork around or over defenders. I really think he will labor again adapting to game speed. 24 probably will not reach that "elite" level we are accustomed to but he won't be a scrub and a liability out there either.

The 20 point per game prediction is reasonable. No one has implied he will dominate like he used to. To do so would be foolish.


I agree. I think 20ppg will be what he averages.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:12 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:Oh please. TRD said his FLOOR would be Wizard's MJ while I said that's probably his CEILILNG.

1. That's completely taken out of context. Here's what I actually said:
therealdeal wrote:I honestly think Kobe will look better physically than people are preparing themselves for, but think Jordan on the Wizards as his floor. He'll be able to get his post up jumper off because that shot really isn't about lift, it's about footwork and body positioning.

As in Kobe's floor will be what Jordan looked like on the Wizards in terms of his physical abilities. That's what I said. I didn't say Kobe's floor would be Jordan's production or the way he dresses or anything else. I said his physical abilities will AT LEAST be an older Jordan on the Wizards who used his savvy to score, not his athleticism. I didn't compare their stats, just the way Kobe will look on the floor. I have a background in athletics and am familiar with injuries like the ones Kobe has faced. They'll limit him, but not as badly as you're trying to say they will. He won't be a cripple. He won't look like Steve Nash. He'll look like an older guy playing with young men, but that doesn't mean he won't out think them.

2. Regardless of the fact that you took what I said out of context, I stand by your misrepresentation of me. Do you even realize what Jordan's numbers were with the Wizards? In two years with them:

21.45 ppg
5.9 rpg
4.5 apg
1.45 stls pg
0.45 blks pg
2.4 tos pg
43% FG
24% 3PT
80.6% FT
~ 35 min. pg

That's where I expect Kobe to be. In fact I expect him to be better in some areas than that (namely outside shooting and assists). I don't expect him to average that many steals, but he should come close to that point production.


I'm telling you right now, he will look slow. And some of you will be shocked at how slow. He will have terrible lift. You said you have a background in athletics yet you seem to underestimate how serious tearing an Achillies is, especially since he tore it in his left leg, which is the plant and explode leg for right handed players. Once you tear that, you are never the same. For a guy who was already starting to slow down PRE Achillies tear to go along with the mileage on his legs, the writing is on the wall.

Like I said, I think the best case scenario is Wizard's MJ in terms of both production and how he gets his points. I don't envision a scenario where he can do better. But the more likely scenario is he will look worse than that.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby lukewaltonsdad on Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:39 pm

gcclaker wrote:
lukewaltonsdad wrote:
gcclaker wrote:^Let's keep it civil gents...

Bryant did show some solid play last season before the leg injury but it took a few games for him to get it together. Will he be 24 of old? The explosion? The separation? The lift? No. He will compensate by relying on his knowledge of the angles then using his footwork around or over defenders. I really think he will labor again adapting to game speed. 24 probably will not reach that "elite" level we are accustomed to but he won't be a scrub and a liability out there either.

The 20 point per game prediction is reasonable. No one has implied he will dominate like he used to. To do so would be foolish.


Kobe's last game was against Memphis; against Tony Allen one of the better defenders in the league.

Kobe's numbers
33 min
21 pts
9-18 FG
5 Reb
4 Assists
4 TO's.

I recently watched the game last week; this was a Kobe who didn't go through his regular summer training regimen and was trying to play himself back into shape while facilitating on the court because we had no healthy point guard at the time if memory serves...Kobe is going to score. I'd say he'll average right around 45% 22 ppg, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, playing 30 minutes.

The key with Kobe is convincing him to reduce his minutes and maintaining his health for an 82 game period. That's on Byron. He can't handle the load of facilitating and competing on both ends of the floor at an elite level for 37-38 minutes a game...those days are gone. He could still be effective, though...also, the addition of Lin will help take some pressure off as well...

You're right. Nash was out at the time. 24 had to take on a dual role. I just read that he lost weight so that would help what is left of his mobility. I would believe he and Scott will work to find a common ground regarding his minutes. The key is Bryant's patience. Will he tolerate teammates bumbling around...digging a hole for themselves?

Lin is aggressive enough to try and make plays on his own. I don't think he will ease off or passively defer like Sessions did. If Bryant's rehab is far along as it should then training camp will be much easier and the transition to game speed will be less of a hurdle.


He won't defer like Sessions did, Bryon will give him more reign on offensively than Brown did Sessions, and Kobe will play more off-ball; the combination of these things will allow a Lin-Kobe backcourt to work well together, IMO. Lin can also play off ball if Kobe is working in the post, on the elbows, etc...he'll still attract multiple defenders; It will work. The key is what we're going to get from the 3, 4, and 5 position. I know what Lin and Kobe will bring...
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby therealdeal on Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:20 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:I'm telling you right now, he will look slow. And some of you will be shocked at how slow. He will have terrible lift. You said you have a background in athletics yet you seem to underestimate how serious tearing an Achillies is, especially since he tore it in his left leg, which is the plant and explode leg for right handed players. Once you tear that, you are never the same. For a guy who was already starting to slow down PRE Achillies tear to go along with the mileage on his legs, the writing is on the wall.

Like I said, I think the best case scenario is Wizard's MJ in terms of both production and how he gets his points. I don't envision a scenario where he can do better. But the more likely scenario is he will look worse than that.

Pre-Achilles tear Kobe Bryant was playing some of his most athletic basketball in years. In fact it was noted how shockingly athletic he was playing that season by everyone across the League. He looked like Kobe from 2008 instead of 2013.

After tearing your Achilles, explosion is not the main problem. The ankle joint has two problems: 1. flexibility and 2. tension. The Achilles comes back stronger than ever and the risk is not re-tearing, but hurting other parts of your body. When you tear your Achilles the tendon itself repairs extremely tightly. So tightly that it can sometimes cause avulsion fractures in your knee (where the tendon attaches). That's why there is a massive emphasis on lengthening the tendon and there's a number of very specific calf workouts/stretches/etc. to help facilitate mobility. Just watching Kobe in the 6 games he played last year it was clear to me that the Achilles won't really be the issue moving forward. What will likely be the issue moving forward is whether or not he has allowed his body to heal properly and to find his kinetic chain balance. It's likely that he broke his leg because he rushed back from injury. The Achilles kept him off his feet for too long and at his age that means his bones became more brittle. The musculature around the injury was fine, but what about the rest of his body? It wasn't ready. He wanted so desperately to shatter the recovery time that he overlooked half the process in order to perfect his Achilles.

In fact Kobe was already dunking again after his Achilles tear. He will be slower and less explosive due to age, but your plant theory is just conjecture. Achilles tears are not uncommon in football which is founded in explosive movements both laterally and straight forward. The concern is not that he won't be able to plant, but that planting will cause a problem in his kinetic chain where his hips are off-balance, his other leg is over compensating; many times people will overcompensate so strongly with their NON-torn Achilles that it also tears under the strain. I don't foresee any of that being the problem here though.

He's had months off, almost a year really if you don't count his 6 games played. I have every faith that he's righted his kinetic balance. I have every faith that his Achilles is fine and his knee is fine because they've both had more than enough time to heal on their own. No he won't be as explosive, but nobody is expecting him to be.

I compared him to Jordan who had just come out of 3 years of retirement and was 38 years old. I think Kobe will have no problem matching that level of your highly vaunted "athleticism".
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby gcclaker on Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:52 pm

lukewaltonsdad wrote:He won't defer like Sessions did, Byron will give him more reign on offensively than Brown did Sessions, and Kobe will play more off-ball; the combination of these things will allow a Lin-Kobe backcourt to work well together, IMO. Lin can also play off ball if Kobe is working in the post, on the elbows, etc...he'll still attract multiple defenders; It will work. The key is what we're going to get from the 3, 4, and 5 position. I know what Lin and Kobe will bring...

I think the backcourt will be fine... Bryant, Lin and Young all could score. Bryant won't have Gasol anymore to play off of in the frontcourt. Boozer is not as good as a facilitator there and could be just as horrid on defense. Bryant did endorse bringing back Hill who will do the dirty work. Johnson won't do much at the 3 unless Henry supplants him or Young spends time there. All in all, 24 could end up at 25 per given the less than expected production at the slots discussed.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby Rooscooter on Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:07 pm

I'm still not convinced Kobe will "fade away". Part of me thinks he will give it a full try again.... holding nothing back.... if his body doesn't support that and he gets injured he may just hang it up. I just don't see Kobe in 2 years scoring 15ppg shooting jumpers at 40% or less. That just doesn't seem to be in his DNA.

Kobe will try to be the 25 ppg guy.... I'm almost sure of it. Maybe not initially but eventually he will try and hoist this team on his back and carry them like he used to.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby LTLakerFan on Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:55 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:Oh please. TRD said his FLOOR would be Wizard's MJ while I said that's probably his CEILILNG.

1. That's completely taken out of context. Here's what I actually said:
therealdeal wrote:I honestly think Kobe will look better physically than people are preparing themselves for, but think Jordan on the Wizards as his floor. He'll be able to get his post up jumper off because that shot really isn't about lift, it's about footwork and body positioning.

As in Kobe's floor will be what Jordan looked like on the Wizards in terms of his physical abilities. That's what I said. I didn't say Kobe's floor would be Jordan's production or the way he dresses or anything else. I said his physical abilities will AT LEAST be an older Jordan on the Wizards who used his savvy to score, not his athleticism. I didn't compare their stats, just the way Kobe will look on the floor. I have a background in athletics and am familiar with injuries like the ones Kobe has faced. They'll limit him, but not as badly as you're trying to say they will. He won't be a cripple. He won't look like Steve Nash. He'll look like an older guy playing with young men, but that doesn't mean he won't out think them.

2. Regardless of the fact that you took what I said out of context, I stand by your misrepresentation of me. Do you even realize what Jordan's numbers were with the Wizards? In two years with them:

21.45 ppg
5.9 rpg
4.5 apg
1.45 stls pg
0.45 blks pg
2.4 tos pg
43% FG
24% 3PT
80.6% FT
~ 35 min. pg

That's where I expect Kobe to be. In fact I expect him to be better in some areas than that (namely outside shooting and assists). I don't expect him to average that many steals, but he should come close to that point production.


I'm telling you right now, he will look slow. And some of you will be shocked at how slow. He will have terrible lift. You said you have a background in athletics yet you seem to underestimate how serious tearing an Achillies is, especially since he tore it in his left leg, which is the plant and explode leg for right handed players. Once you tear that, you are never the same. For a guy who was already starting to slow down PRE Achillies tear to go along with the mileage on his legs, the writing is on the wall.

Like I said, I think the best case scenario is Wizard's MJ in terms of both production and how he gets his points. I don't envision a scenario where he can do better. But the more likely scenario is he will look worse than that.


Your problem LGL is that you often pompously throw out your opinions on what is going to happen or not happen with a player. Often those opinions are highly debatable. Maybe take that into consideration and dial down the level of certainty with which you post, just because YOU think it or think you see something. TRD just explained to you how off base you are with understanding when players come back strength wise in better case scenarios after proper healing with achilles tears. And no one here should ever forget that you recently blurted out that even if Kobe Bryant is HEALTHY this year, "he won't be much of a factor". That's how solid your takes are. You were defending it even after being given bleep for it.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby lakerfan2 on Fri Aug 22, 2014 4:58 pm

Fun fact: the Achilles injury happened 2 years ago. Kobe came back from that injury and played a handful of games midseason with no training camp with the team. Then he injured his knee and shut it down because 1. The season was obviously a lost cause 2. It'll give him more time to rehab for this season

You can say whatever you want about Kobe's "ceiling". When the dust is settled, if rather be the LAKER FAN that roots for my players to beat the odds, especially one known for shutting doubters down time and time again.

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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby laakers on Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:17 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:I'm telling you right now, he will look slow. And some of you will be shocked at how slow. He will have terrible lift. You said you have a background in athletics yet you seem to underestimate how serious tearing an Achillies is, especially since he tore it in his left leg, which is the plant and explode leg for right handed players. Once you tear that, you are never the same. For a guy who was already starting to slow down PRE Achillies tear to go along with the mileage on his legs, the writing is on the wall.

Like I said, I think the best case scenario is Wizard's MJ in terms of both production and how he gets his points. I don't envision a scenario where he can do better. But the more likely scenario is he will look worse than that.

Pre-Achilles tear Kobe Bryant was playing some of his most athletic basketball in years. In fact it was noted how shockingly athletic he was playing that season by everyone across the League. He looked like Kobe from 2008 instead of 2013.

After tearing your Achilles, explosion is not the main problem. The ankle joint has two problems: 1. flexibility and 2. tension. The Achilles comes back stronger than ever and the risk is not re-tearing, but hurting other parts of your body. When you tear your Achilles the tendon itself repairs extremely tightly. So tightly that it can sometimes cause avulsion fractures in your knee (where the tendon attaches). That's why there is a massive emphasis on lengthening the tendon and there's a number of very specific calf workouts/stretches/etc. to help facilitate mobility. Just watching Kobe in the 6 games he played last year it was clear to me that the Achilles won't really be the issue moving forward. What will likely be the issue moving forward is whether or not he has allowed his body to heal properly and to find his kinetic chain balance. It's likely that he broke his leg because he rushed back from injury. The Achilles kept him off his feet for too long and at his age that means his bones became more brittle. The musculature around the injury was fine, but what about the rest of his body? It wasn't ready. He wanted so desperately to shatter the recovery time that he overlooked half the process in order to perfect his Achilles.

In fact Kobe was already dunking again after his Achilles tear. He will be slower and less explosive due to age, but your plant theory is just conjecture. Achilles tears are not uncommon in football which is founded in explosive movements both laterally and straight forward. The concern is not that he won't be able to plant, but that planting will cause a problem in his kinetic chain where his hips are off-balance, his other leg is over compensating; many times people will overcompensate so strongly with their NON-torn Achilles that it also tears under the strain. I don't foresee any of that being the problem here though.

He's had months off, almost a year really if you don't count his 6 games played. I have every faith that he's righted his kinetic balance. I have every faith that his Achilles is fine and his knee is fine because they've both had more than enough time to heal on their own. No he won't be as explosive, but nobody is expecting him to be.

I compared him to Jordan who had just come out of 3 years of retirement and was 38 years old. I think Kobe will have no problem matching that level of your highly vaunted "athleticism".


:bow:

And on that part I bolded: LGL, this is where I get most sad/confused about your opinion here. It seems like you have faith in Kobe sucking rather than Kobe balling hard. Like, what's the point?

If I think Kobe will ball hard, and I'm right, then yay! We all win (even you). If I think Kobe will ball hard, and I'm wrong, then boo! We all lose, except you were right so good for you. But we still lose.

If you think Kobe will suck, and you're right, then boo! We all lose, and you were right, so good for you. But we still lose. If you think Kobe will suck, and you're wrong, then yay! We all win, even you, even though you had to be pessimistic about it.

There's no need to drag everyone else down by saying " it's not hard to predict now he will look. He will look slow. I think some of you will be shocked at how slow and old he looks. This isn't hating, this is reality. " In REALITY, no one can predict anything. So why predict that he will be slow?

So my point is: BE OPTIMISTIC. You claim you're a Laker fan, so you're on my side. I want to help you! You'll be happier if you're optimistic! People around you (CL posters) will be happier if you're optimistic! It's a win-win situation!
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Postby LTLakerFan on Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:54 pm

^^^ Thanks for taking the time to spell that out for this guy as he clearly doesn't get it on his own. Right on. I've said like 3 times in last half year, Kobe's whole career he has amazed us with the injuries and crap that he just laces them up and goes out and plays through the pain and makes adjustments as needed. Such as shooting with a freaking splint on a broken finger on his shooting hand. The one missing the wrist tendon now. But with a number around here it's like what injuries have you played through for us lately?

Why believe that he won't make the same necessary adjustments and continue to be a highly effective player? Instead of the "master of the obvious" bleep about age, the achilles, father time, blah, blah, blah. Shut up and give Bryant a chance to show us all once more how he does it. He has certainly earned that. WE ALL KNOW HE'S NOT PRIME KOBE ANYMORE. Got that part down. Quit harping on it. For the record, if healthy I say he's closer to 25 scoring average than 20. IMO.
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