Kobe Discussion: Clash of the Titus! (671)

And Real Just a lot of on key points in that 14 page long response.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:

JGC wrote:The reason your analogy stinks, is because we have already said to Dwight that he's a star and that he's our future. We WANTED Bynum to be our future and Bynum certainly needed to earn it. When we traded for Dwight, we told him he'd be getting the keys to this franchise, we told him that we'd put him in a position to retire his jersey along the wall of all the other franchise greats. That's saying he's already earned it.

Yes, you are right the Lakers told him that they..... "WANTED" him to take the keys to the franchise. They didn't say it was a given especially considering we don't have him signed past this year. Dwight still had to prove that after the back surgery he was still the dominating player the Lakers are use to having. Can you say thus far this season he has shown that? How many times has he shown he can't hold on to the ball, his post game is co-dependent on having several shooters around him or his limited passing ability? He has been offered the keys to the car but has yet to prove he can drive this particular car.

I can't say Dwight has shown that this season. He hasn't. But he's shown it previously. And we traded for him to position him to dominate. And that's exactly why I say START the process, not complete it. Start it. Don't rush it. It, like many others things, is a process. The Spurs didn't move the team to Parker overnight, it took more than a season even.

He hasn't been offered the keys to the car yet. He's just been told he'd be offered the keys.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:

JGC wrote:If you bring me in to your company and you walk me around the office and tell me you're giving me the corner office with a view and then on my first day I end up in a storage closet, I'm not going to be very happy. And it won't matter one lick if, when I complain about it, you say "I pointed to Denzel Washington and told my son I wanted him to be a star just like him. You gotta earn it."

Those are two different things. LA told Dwight they "wanted" him to take over. if someone put out the red carpet and you don't perform then you lose that corner office regardless. Again, I don't get your point.

Yes, glad you agree that LA told D12 they wanted him to take over. And yes, I can tell you don't get my point because you keep suggesting that I'm saying that we should take the keys away from Kobe and hand them to Dwight. Haha.

A transition is a process and so we get that process started so we can get through it slowly. If Dwight just isn't interested or just can't do it, then fine, the experiment failed. But at least we can say we tried.

We haven't even rolled out the red carpet, so to speak.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:

JGC wrote:This has nothing to do with Kobe, and everything to do with Dwight. The only reason it even impacts Kobe is because I'm just talking about walking the talk and loosening, just a bit, the death grip that Kobe has to allow for the existence of a 1a/1b type set up like we promised. What we told Dwight when he got here isn't translating on to the court at all. From how the players play on the court, to how Kobe leads on the court, to the coaching hiring, etc, etc.

This has, as usual, everything to do with Kobe. 1. Its in the Kobe thread. 2. Your whole argument with Real has been about how Kobe needs to take a lesser role and become more like D Fish. Dwight while still recovering from his injury has not shown he is ready to be 1a or 1b for the Lakers. Even Dwight himself said he wasnt performing up to standard. Even when the Lakers featured him he got striped, got fouled and missed the free throws or just plain missed. Then complained about touches where he has been getting a ton. Shaq for all his faults made sure he outworked everyone he went up against to make sure he got the ball. While he complained about Kobe shooting the true facts were Shaq and Kobe shot within 5 shots of each other. Can you honestly say that Dwight has done anything to warrent being given the keys to the team that Earl Clark hasn't done?

Well, it doesn't have EVERYTHING to do with Kobe. But it's a lot because Kobe is a lot to this team and franchise. Part of it would be working with the coaching staff to do more things to placate D12. Some of those things would involve Kobe taking a reduced role. Prevent the team from being able to overely on Kobe and the added bonus is extra rest for Kobe. He's not effective playing too many minutes anyway. In the mean time, yes, I'd like to see Kobe take on the type of leadership that Derek Fisher did for us. Wouldn't that be a good thing? Or, a bad thing? I think we're missing it.

Can I honestly say Dwight has done anything to warrant being given the keys? Depends. If you want me to completely forget anything that has ever occurred prior to this season then probably not. But in that case, when Kobe goes cold, I guess you have to bench him right? Like, the way you do with Meeks or anyone else?

But that would be silly. I think when you're the only player in NBA history to receive 3 consecutive DPOY awards, have led your team to the NBA finals, and had the general manager tell the world that he hopes Dwight Howard will be here for another 10 years, that maybe he's at least deserving of a better opportunity than he's being given.

By the way, I didn't say we need to take the keys from Kobe and give them to Dwight. When one gets overly defensive/sensitive, one doesn't think or read straight. What I've been saying all along, is that it might be time to start thinking about HOW we would begin the transition process of doing that. We haven't yet. We haven't made him feel very welcome, we're not running any effective plays for him or in the manner that he likes it, we're hiring coaches that don't accomodate his skill sets. I mean nothing we as a team/franchise/whatever have done so far has been with Dwight in mind. A transition takes time, and we may not have a lot of it left especially if Kobe does in fact retire next year so let's get the proverbial party started so to speak.

Man, really? You don't follow the league enough to know what Dwight has done relative to Earl Clark? SMH. What a waste.

JGC
I can't say Dwight has shown that this season. He hasn't. But he's shown it previously. And we traded for him to position him to dominate. And that's exactly why I say START the process, not complete it. Start it. Don't rush it. It, like many others things, is a process. The Spurs didn't move the team to Parker overnight, it took more than a season even.

He hasn't been offered the keys to the car yet. He's just been told he'd be offered the keys.

I am missing your argument here. Dwight gets the second most touches out of all bigs in the league (Thanks Real for that info), Dwight dominates he gets the ball, Dwight stops getting ripped by midgets when he is 2-feet from the rim and Dwight whines about touches. Maybe I just don't understand whatelse the Lakers can do to make him feel like he is important? We have a pass first PG, a pass first Forward and a true #1 option that leaves it on the court every single play of every game.

As far as TP and the Spurs, again, TP and Manu both came in attacking knowing that was what they needed to do. They featured Timmy D but they moved without the ball and within the flow of the offense. I keep talking about Hill and Earl Clark because those guys are doing the things that Dwight USE to do. Even if Kobe shot 50 times a game how does Dwight get no offensive boards? He has to earn the right to be #2 let alone #1 or 1B.

Yes, glad you agree that LA told D12 they wanted him to take over. And yes, I can tell you don't get my point because you keep suggesting that I'm saying that we should take the keys away from Kobe and hand them to Dwight. Haha.

A transition is a process and so we get that process started so we can get through it slowly. If Dwight just isn't interested or just can't do it, then fine, the experiment failed. But at least we can say we tried.

We haven't even rolled out the red carpet, so to speak.

That is what you have saying if you take away all the fluff crap your hiding it behind. Forgive me for not biting on the "fluff" crap you posted. I know its hard to keep it up when you start with the "haha's" because I know there really isn't a point to all this.

Wow, that is a very great statement of "transition" but with no substance or any real "this is what we need to do" type statements. I mean seriously all you have said is that we need to involve Dwight more....... Try saying something more than vague opinion that doesnt seem to hold water. Is that too much to ask.

Well, it doesn't have EVERYTHING to do with Kobe. But it's a lot because Kobe is a lot to this team and franchise. Part of it would be working with the coaching staff to do more things to placate D12. Some of those things would involve Kobe taking a reduced role. Prevent the team from being able to overely on Kobe and the added bonus is extra rest for Kobe. He's not effective playing too many minutes anyway. In the mean time, yes, I'd like to see Kobe take on the type of leadership that Derek Fisher did for us. Wouldn't that be a good thing? Or, a bad thing? I think we're missing it.

So what you are saying is that Kobe and the Lakers should cater to Dwight so he feels good about himself? WTF? Kobe can rest when guys play with the same energy he plays with plain and simple. I can't even imagine a Lakers fan that says, "we need to make so and so feel better so they'll stay." If Dwight is as fragile as you make him then I don't want him heading my team and he can walk. Funny no one wanted Drew when he acted like a Dive instead of working for his butt off to take the keys to the throne. Ice Cube said it best, "If you got to be convinced to be here then I don't want you on the P&G." I now know why you didn't get my Denzel example thinking that Kobe is all of a sudden D Fish....LOL.. Kobe is Kobe. Pau isn't a me-first player. Nash is a pass first quiet guy. Dwight is a smiling happy guy. MWP is a best. Kobe is an attacker and a lead by example guy. He has been that way since Day 1. He leads by working. If Dwight needs a baby sitter then I feel sorry for Dwight. Pau came in and got all the respect and love from Kobe... You know why? Because Pau came in and worked.

Can I honestly say Dwight has done anything to warrant being given the keys? Depends. If you want me to completely forget anything that has ever occurred prior to this season then probably not. But in that case, when Kobe goes cold, I guess you have to bench him right? Like, the way you do with Meeks or anyone else?

Wait, so you want to say "Dwight did this" but then when some says the same for Kobe you say "that was the past." Um that is contridiction right there. No I don't say bench Kobe because Kobe has earned the keys to the car plain and simple. He was handed it, he wasn't passed it, he fricken took it. When Dwight is getting outworked by dudes that shouldn't hold his jock then I got a problem.

But that would be silly. I think when you're the only player in NBA history to receive 3 consecutive DPOY awards, have led your team to the NBA finals, and had the general manager tell the world that he hopes Dwight Howard will be here for another 10 years, that maybe he's at least deserving of a better opportunity than he's being given.

Again, what "better"? You keep saying that but then just talking around the point. You want Kobe to let Dwight have Vanessa? Should they make him a statue infront of Staples before they put Kobe? SHould the fans yell MVP, MVP, MVP to Dwight instead of Kobe? How about the Lakers announcers put up the "Awe next time" chant whenever he misses 5 freethrows in a row or gets a stupid foul? Maybe let him sleep in so he doesn't have to get up for shoot around. Again, what is your point?

By the way, I didn't say we need to take the keys from Kobe and give them to Dwight. When one gets overly defensive/sensitive, one doesn't think or read straight.

LOL... Ahh you are back to your "let me tell you about yourself" responses when you have nothing to defend your non-points. You are right following your ins and outs of logic has me not reading straight because basically you haven't said anything straight forward. Remember when you went on your rant about Kobe shoots to much? I asked you what was the magic number and all you did was circle jerk the questions. yes, I am the one that is defensive. I was waiting for that tactic to deflect the truth of your nonsense.

What I've been saying all along, is that it might be time to start thinking about HOW we would begin the transition process of doing that. We haven't yet. We haven't made him feel very welcome, we're not running any effective plays for him or in the manner that he likes it, we're hiring coaches that don't accomodate his skill sets. I mean nothing we as a team/franchise/whatever have done so far has been with Dwight in mind. A transition takes time, and we may not have a lot of it left especially if Kobe does in fact retire next year so let's get the proverbial party started so to speak.

No what you said was Kobe needs to start giving the reigns to Dwight. Now its because Kobe is retiring next year? Real pointed out how you selectively make things fit your illogical arguments and this is one of them. Seriously, Dwight hasnt even signed with the Lakers but Kobe has done so. Dwight wants the keys to this car he needs to play better. He gets a ton of touches, he gets a million freethrows and he gets praised and applauded even on a team that is underachieving. Want him to take over? Tell him to take the damn keys instead of this crap about someone please make him feel good. Give me a break.

Man, really? You don't follow the league enough to know what Dwight has done relative to Earl Clark? SMH. What a waste.

LOL... Again, taking the post out of context to fit your argument. FUnny enough you should shake your head but not at me but at your insistence on fighting for your agenda against Kobe. I guess it should be like Dwight said, "the negativity needs to stop we need to bring some positivity to the team." Yea thats the cold blooded guy that is going to take the wheel.

These last 3 pages make my head hurt.......

Rooscooter wrote:These last 3 pages make my head hurt.......

me too

^ Agreed. And it's going nowhere.

People just keep talking about how Dwight, Bynum, whoever has to TAKE the reins from Kobe. I just don't think that that is feasible for any NBA player to come in here and physical force the keys/reins/whatever out of Kobe's hands. He's been the face of this franchise for too long. I'm wrong about that, then which human being on this planet, could come in here and in 40 games, forcibly rip the keys to the franchise from Kobe?

The only way a transition is going to happen is by phasing it in. Until then, anyone else who comes here, no matter who it is, is going to be a very distant #2. And few players who have had great success in the league are going to WANT to come here and be that far down the pecking order even if it is #2. It's going to take a collective effort, Kobe included, and his taking a SLIGHTLY reduced role would be good for the team, for Dwight, and for Kobe too since he's already tasked with doing too much anyway.

Rooscooter wrote:These last 3 pages make my head hurt.......

Not mine. My head is clear as crystal.

Kobe kinda running the point and initiating the offence for us tonight... and its working! (so far)

This is a really weird game from Kobe, and it's not happening again... but it was fun to watch him rack up 12 assists.

He's going to get taken out of the game right now, but it'd be fun to see him tie his career high in assists and get a triple double in the process.

This was a strange game, but it was a great game in it's own respect.

I included the halftime report graphic with the log from tonight.

Utah (Jan. 25, 2013)

Halftime Report:

so any hating kobe tonight ? maybe odom1year ?

he didnt attack the rim enough. 3 missed shots and no free throws.

kobebryant248 wrote:so any hating kobe tonight ? maybe odom1year ?

Don't ask, because they'll find a way.

Weezy wrote:

kobebryant248 wrote:so any hating kobe tonight ? maybe odom1year ?

Don't ask, because they'll find a way.

Kobe should be getting 6 assists a night, not 5.

See the more open shots our guys make the more he passes the ball. Very simple concept aint it

kobe played fantastic tonight but also d12 , mwp , gasol and nash . i should say a team effort but like a friend of mine said it all started with kobe . he was awesome tonight

The Rock wrote:See the more open shots our guys make the more he passes the ball. Very simple concept aint it

Also, the more the ball goes in the more assists he gets, it's crazy I know, who knew.

Our best games this season have been when like 4, 5, 6 guys are in double figures. That's not Kobe simply passing the ball, that's everyone being aggressive, that's everyone making their shots, it's not on Kobe that it's happened like 4 times all season.

what a game. man is in his 17th season. unreal.

Kobe was awesome tonight. Best game of the season. Amazing what happens when he sets the tone early like that. Cant expect that many assists every night but if he keeps playing like this we might just be a good team!

Its crazy how when teammates move, makes shots, attack the boards how willing Kobe is to make the pass. Hmm what comes first the energy or the pass?

Way for Kobe to swallow his pride & pass the damn ball efficiently! 14 freakin assists for the Mamba!

1-0 when Kobe has 14 or more assists this season

Weezy wrote:

The Rock wrote:See the more open shots our guys make the more he passes the ball. Very simple concept aint it

Also, the more the ball goes in the more assists he gets, it's crazy I know, who knew.

Our best games this season have been when like 4, 5, 6 guys are in double figures. That's not Kobe simply passing the ball, that's everyone being aggressive, that's everyone making their shots, it's not on Kobe that it's happened like 4 times all season.

Yeah but when Kobe sets the tone early, the guys follow his lead. That is what we need. More of this. He set up two lob dunks for dwight early and kept the big man happy.

Hope to see more games like this from kobe going forward!