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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby LTLakerFan on Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:59 am

Happy New Year! Sorry for the 12 years old blast. I still think that seeing it here sucks balls for the reasons stated. Done.

Sorry you got dragged in Phoenix :sing:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:03 am

LTLakerFan wrote:Happy New Year! Sorry for the 12 years old blast. I still think that seeing it here sucks balls for the reasons stated. Done.

Sorry you got dragged in Phoenix :sing:


No worries, we all made nice now. :jam2:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:05 am

JGC wrote:
Yeah but I feel as if this is a general theme of this team. Guys aren't making shots and Nash had what, 10 assists? How did Nash register 10 assists? He registers 10 assists any time he plays no matter how bad guys are playing. Not to say Kobe needs to get 10, but he should be able to get 5 EASILY every single night minimum with this group and then more than that when guys are particularly hot.

I looked at some stats today to see if my observations about poorer-than-usual movement of the ball were off. Here's what I found.

2012-2013 Assist Rank: 15

We're playing an uptempo offense, with Steve Nash at point guard (granted for only a handful of these games), Kobe, and a pass happy Pau Gasol and we're only 15th in the league in assists? That isn't acceptable. We should be WAY higher especially with legit advantage with our bigs who should be routinely fed the ball. We trail the Raptors, 76ers, and Bucks in that department.

I mean last season we ranked 6th in assists and that's in a slow-it-down Mike Brown offense without a legitimate point guard for most of the season. We had Derek Fisher at point guard most of the year!

If you look at the number of ratio of assists to field goals made, we're 22nd this year. Last year we were 8th.

If you look at assists per possession, again we're 22nd this year and last year we were 9th.

What else tells me we're not playing together? When we play on the road, we are 3rd WORST in the league in assists per possession. Last year we were just below middle of the road at 17th.

At home we're 13th in assists per possession, but last year we were 4th.

I understand Kobe isn't the ONLY culprit here, but he is the leader of the team and the team is just not playing together very well at all. I thought we were going to use the first part of the season to try to play as a team and work through the kinks and build chemistry even at the expense of wins but I don't see how abandoning the team concept when guys miss a few shots builds toward that. They spent the first 20 or so games, after losses, telling the fans and media to stay patient. How is abandoning the team concept being patient exactly?

Phil Jackson used to do this thing when the other team would go on a run... he'd... make the players figure it out for themselves. And this sometimes, resulted in losses. But we were always building toward something, learning, they were learning how to handle those situations and in many cases it paid off down the road even if it came at the expense of some wins early in the season. THAT is being patient. Instead, we panic whenever things just START to go awry, and then what happens? The team is jacking 3s with a FULL minute left in a game where we are only down by 4.


So basically you are taking year long stats to prove your point when we haven't had our PG for a hand full of games. Our biggest assist getters on this team are Nash and Pau followed by Kobe. You guys just want to nitpick Kobe because well thats what you all do. Kobe didn't do anything that cost us the game. That corner 3 was horrible. And the turnover on the right side where he could of dumped it to Ron was also ugly. However, that being said, NO ONE on the team was shooting for crap. Our bigs shot 8 out of 22. MWP 6 for 17. We also missed...yes missed. 19 3-pointers only making 3 out of the 22. We didn't win any quarter except the 4th. We got outhustled most of the game. Nash wasn't as effective as he usually is and the whole team was flat. Yes, the end of the game was one error after the other but it wasn't the reason we lost. Blaiming Kobe doesn't make any sense plain and simple.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:17 am

While the Kobe sig may have been a joke I too find it bad taste. Like Real expressed earlier I don't agree with any current player or coach being put in a "garbage" sig especially Kobe. It won't be long before people are using it.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby GoldenKnight on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:21 am

phoenixrisingla wrote:
LTLakerFan wrote:Happy New Year! Sorry for the 12 years old blast. I still think that seeing it here sucks balls for the reasons stated. Done.

Sorry you got dragged in Phoenix :sing:


No worries, we all made nice now. :jam2:


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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby borri on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:23 am

JGC wrote:
Yeah but I feel as if this is a general theme of this team. Guys aren't making shots and Nash had what, 10 assists?


Once again, let me remind you. Go to ESPN. Box score. Play by Play.

Yup Nash got 10 assists when guys are playing bad...right? Did you know, of those 10 assists....SIX were to Kobe.

Back to the point...an assist is an assist if someone makes a damn shot. If it weren't for Kobe, Nash would of had 4 assists the entire night. Why? Everyone not named Kobe and Nash were laying bricks.

Too bad Nash can't give himself an assist. If Nash can barely get 4 without Kobe, how do you expect Kobe to do any better? Nash is 10x the game manager and passer Kobe is.

You just can't analyze one game based on "truths" "philosophies on what should be done" and what not. Every game is different. One thing is true no matter what, an assist is an assist if someone makes a shot.

The PHI game, no one besides Kobe can...and yes when that occurs, the one who can make a shot SHOULD go into ballhog mode. We are trying to win a game here in a season where we can't afford to lose anymore damn games.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby lakersyunowin on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:25 am

garbage sigs: meh, people are gonna criticize kobe whether in graphical or text form. to me, this is nothing shockingly new and hardly a big deal. personally, i find the 1-post-count-wonder threads (extremist views on lakers sucking, fake news about trade/injuries etc) more irritating.

that said, i personally wouldn't have made it, even in jest...and i've made more than a few.

sadly, this is what happens and where our focus shifts when the lakers don't play well. :man6:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:42 am

Murdock wrote:
JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Ball Hog.... Selfish..... 5 time champion.... ego centric..... chucking shots.... 5 time champion.... dominates ball too much.... 5 time champion....... won't change..... 5 time champion.... too old..... uncoachable.....5 time champion..... low efficiency rating.....5 time champion..... won't play defense..... cares only about his stats.... 5 time champion


I'm not really sure what the point of this post is. Does this mean there is no valid criticism of Kobe because any criticism can be countered with 5 time champ?

If that is the case, that's fine, but is 5 the minimum threshold after which any player can no longer be criticized?

If that's not the case, then, there is really no point to the post, right?

well yeah that's the full on, mature and great duscussion concerning Kobe ;) we gotta get used to it ..


:man10:

It's what ever you want to make of it..... it's comments from this thread and others about Kobe mixed in with a Fact....

He's been on 5 championship squads.... he played the same way then as he is now.... Most here seem to think he has better teammates now than he's ever had before...... yet we aren't winning. Has Kobe changed.... or have those teammates?.... He's played "team ball" when the team is ready and willing. These last few losses we've had the team other than a couple didn't seem like they wanted to be there so he does what he does to try and win.....

Finally, Kobe isn't changing.... why should he? He's had more success than anyone since Jordan doing what he's done/doing. You'd think by now anyone that's followed the Lakers for more than 2 years would know that....
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:46 am

^thats to much logic Roo. Stop it.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Lakerman JSJ on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:47 am

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Ok, the last few pages of this thread have been less than stellar, but this sig actually made me laugh out loud at my desk. :man10:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby thisbjgz on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:51 am

his role on the other championship squads were slightly different. He had fisher here to be the captain as well so he never needed to verbally get through to players. With fisher gone, he has to take the responsibilities of being a more locker room guy, anyone watching the lakers know they got no chemistry. He doesn't trust any of his teammates at the end of games and this is where the bleeding starts. It's one thing to be arrogant and show your hardworking skills thru staying in after practice, lifting weights etc but it would work wonders if he was more vocal to his teammates. Maybe i don't know much but watching TWC backstage lakers I don't see Kobe verbally engaged in team practices or behind the scenes.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby GoldenKnight on Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:55 am

thisbjgz wrote:his role on the other championship squads were slightly different. He had fisher here to be the captain as well so he never needed to verbally get through to players. With fisher gone, he has to take the responsibilities of being a more locker room guy, anyone watching the lakers know they got no chemistry. He doesn't trust any of his teammates at the end of games and this is where the bleeding starts. It's one thing to be arrogant and show your hardworking skills thru staying in after practice, lifting weights etc but it would work wonders if he was more vocal to his teammates. Maybe i don't know much but watching TWC backstage lakers I don't see Kobe verbally engaged in team practices or behind the scenes.


To me, it seems that Fish & Phil kept Kobe composed the a level that he would play the way he is supposed to play. With not one, but both of them gone, Kobe seems to have been just a bit out of control with his style of play. I'm not so sure he's as great of a vocal leader in the locker room either.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby DarthRekal on Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:14 pm

Lakerman JSJ wrote:Image

Ok, the last few pages of this thread have been less than stellar, but this sig actually made me laugh out loud at my desk. :man10:

:man10: :man10: :man10: :man10: :man10: :man10: :bow:

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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Chillbongo on Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:16 pm

Rooscooter wrote:He's been on 5 championship squads.... he played the same way then as he is now.... Most here seem to think he has better teammates now than he's ever had before...... yet we aren't winning. Has Kobe changed.... or have those teammates?.... He's played "team ball" when the team is ready and willing.


Disagree with bold. His nature is to "play like that", but he's won rings playing team ball. Kobe's score mentality stems back to 2000-02, was half the cause of the Shaq/Kobe feud, continued in our sad years 05-07, and has been intermittently sprinkled in from 08-13. Most notably after 2010.

Difference is, the years we WON the 5 rings, he was heavily focused on playing "team ball". I think people forget. He was really good at picking his spots, getting shots in the flow of the offense, facilitating/drawing the D, and also bailing us out when needed.

Not disputing that Kobe should try to take over when nothing else is working. But it is demoralizing to THIS team with THIS roster, to have Kobe get in that mode.

No, Kobe will always be a scorer, but mark my words: We win when HE can balance scoring and getting guys going--many times which is not even in his control or his fault. But for people to think it is OK for this team to have "Kobe does what he does" to try to win is pathetic. We have never won a ring riding Kobe's scoring outbursts. Whether as a result of "failing teammates" or him getting into "hero ball", it is not ok & doesn't work.

THIS is our criticism--that it is not a winning formula. No one is disputing his impact on this team & the game of basketball. We want rings. Team ball + Mamba = rings.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby borri on Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:26 pm

Chillbongo wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:He's been on 5 championship squads.... he played the same way then as he is now.... Most here seem to think he has better teammates now than he's ever had before...... yet we aren't winning. Has Kobe changed.... or have those teammates?.... He's played "team ball" when the team is ready and willing.


Disagree with bold. His nature is to "play like that", but he's won rings playing team ball. Kobe's score mentality stems back to 2000-02, was half the cause of the Shaq/Kobe feud, continued in our sad years 05-07, and has been intermittently sprinkled in from 08-13. Most notably after 2010.


Sad years....who was on our roster then? Last year, do you even remember how it went down? I'll remind you.

1. Fish sucked til traded.
2. Metta was downright awful.
3. Drew got constant double and triple teamed in the post.
4. Pau was passive.
5. Mike Brown.

Don't you remember it? Zero spacing. None. Kobe had to shoot. Yes Kobe played his worst year last year. But can you blame him entirely? Our roster was awful. Didn't we constantly complain last year about NOT having a bench?
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Texas Lakers Fan on Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:30 pm

Anyone blaming Kobe is just stupid. The man at 34 years old has just been flat out dominant this season. He's leading the league in scoring at over 30 ppg and doing so efficiently. All this b******* about Kobe being a ball hog is exactly that BS. The man is averaging 5 assists along with 5 rebounds as well. His defense is also better than is has been in years. The problem has been Nash has hardly played this season, Pau has played like a p**** just like the last two playoffs, and our coach is being an idiot and won't play our best bench player in Antawn Jamison.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:41 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:So basically you are taking year long stats to prove your point when we haven't had our PG for a hand full of games. Our biggest assist getters on this team are Nash and Pau followed by Kobe. You guys just want to nitpick Kobe because well thats what you all do. Kobe didn't do anything that cost us the game. That corner 3 was horrible. And the turnover on the right side where he could of dumped it to Ron was also ugly. However, that being said, NO ONE on the team was shooting for crap. Our bigs shot 8 out of 22. MWP 6 for 17. We also missed...yes missed. 19 3-pointers only making 3 out of the 22. We didn't win any quarter except the 4th. We got outhustled most of the game. Nash wasn't as effective as he usually is and the whole team was flat. Yes, the end of the game was one error after the other but it wasn't the reason we lost. Blaiming Kobe doesn't make any sense plain and simple.


But we didn't have a true PG last year. We had Derek Fisher. Who everyone said was so horrible and so terrible (and in many ways, in terms of on court production, he was). So whether we had Nash or not, we certainly shouldn't be substantially worse in terms of assists per possession. Close? Sure. Maybe a little behind? Ok maybe. But we went from 9th BEST to 9th WORST in terms of assists per possession. Now it has gotten better since Nash has come back but even still, that doesn't stand out to you as being a little... interesting at minimum?

I think your response is highly defensive (though understandable) and misses the point to be honest. You're right though. Kobe didn't do anything to single-handedly cost us the game. He also wasn't THE reason we lost. But no player was. And no single player is in ANY game.

MWP's 6 for 17 didn't cost us the game. Neither did Dwight's 1-7 or Pau's 2-12 in isolation. But Kobe took what around 20 jumpers and made like 4 or 5 of them (he made all his layups I think for a better percentage). He passed the ball a grand total of TWO times in the game. Every other touch resulted in a shot attempt or a foul call on a drive to the basket. He turned the ball over twice in a critical time in the game and missed shots in that time span as well. His defense was questionable at best. You're right. We didn't LOSE because of him. We didn't WIN because of him either.

And please don't tell me about the team being flat. That's the worst excuse ever. At what point in a game, is it acceptable to abandon the team concept?

If a player is shooting 1-3 FG, is it ok to freeze them out and not let them shoot again or not until they are 1-4? How many shots before a player is considered to be shooting poorly? What happens if a player starts out 6-6 but then misses 4 straight, do we freeze them out, or do we take the first 6 made in to consideration? We keep saying Dwight is the best center in the league. Ok, at what point do you say it is acceptable to eliminate the best center in the league from any scoring opportunities? I personally don't think there is ever a point at which you stop playing the team game, but if you think there is, and I'll respect that opinion (though disagere with it), I want to know at what point you think it is acceptable for the team to avoid that player from trying to score again.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:47 pm

Texas Lakers Fan wrote:Anyone blaming Kobe is just stupid. The man at 34 years old has just been flat out dominant this season. He's leading the league in scoring at over 30 ppg and doing so efficiently. All this b******* about Kobe being a ball hog is exactly that BS. The man is averaging 5 assists along with 5 rebounds as well. His defense is also better than is has been in years. The problem has been Nash has hardly played this season, Pau has played like a p**** just like the last two playoffs, and our coach is being an idiot and won't play our best bench player in Antawn Jamison.


What is wrong with you? Calling people names and bypassing the swear filter twice? You're not setting a very good example here.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:56 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
Murdock wrote:
JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Ball Hog.... Selfish..... 5 time champion.... ego centric..... chucking shots.... 5 time champion.... dominates ball too much.... 5 time champion....... won't change..... 5 time champion.... too old..... uncoachable.....5 time champion..... low efficiency rating.....5 time champion..... won't play defense..... cares only about his stats.... 5 time champion


I'm not really sure what the point of this post is. Does this mean there is no valid criticism of Kobe because any criticism can be countered with 5 time champ?

If that is the case, that's fine, but is 5 the minimum threshold after which any player can no longer be criticized?

If that's not the case, then, there is really no point to the post, right?

well yeah that's the full on, mature and great duscussion concerning Kobe ;) we gotta get used to it ..


:man10:

It's what ever you want to make of it..... it's comments from this thread and others about Kobe mixed in with a Fact....

He's been on 5 championship squads.... he played the same way then as he is now.... Most here seem to think he has better teammates now than he's ever had before...... yet we aren't winning. Has Kobe changed.... or have those teammates?.... He's played "team ball" when the team is ready and willing. These last few losses we've had the team other than a couple didn't seem like they wanted to be there so he does what he does to try and win.....

Finally, Kobe isn't changing.... why should he? He's had more success than anyone since Jordan doing what he's done/doing. You'd think by now anyone that's followed the Lakers for more than 2 years would know that....


You didn't answer the question. What is the threshold by which a player can no longer be criticized? Is the threshold ring count >= 5? Is it name = Kobe Bryant? What is the threshold for you?

The fact of the matter is that we are going to win ball games when Kobe plays team ball. You can't have a guy on any team, no matter what is name is, taking 30 shots and not playing team ball. You just won't win that way.

In fact, I thought that that's what we were trying to do in the early part of the season. Figure out how to play as a team even at the expense of wins so we can be better prepared come playoff time.

You think maybe we've abandoned that now because we're just too deep? Because there have been some games (including the 76ers game) where we've abandoned it very, very early (as in the 1st/2nd quarter).
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby borri on Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:19 pm

MWP's 6 for 17 didn't cost us the game. Neither did Dwight's 1-7 or Pau's 2-12 in isolation.


But combined, that's 9-36. Where is Kobe and Nash going to pass the ball to? Hogwash about the "in isolation" argument.

Those 3 players cost us the game. Had it not been for Kobe, we lose by 20. You do realize that of Nash's 10 assists....6 were to Kobe right?

If you look at Kobe's shot chart, only 7 were 20 FT or longer. Of the 7, 1 was a buzzer beater in the 3rd. One was at the end of the game where we needed a 3, because we were down 4. That makes 5 long distance shots, where he was 1-5. Which means he took 24 quality looks, not counting the rushed 15 ft to beat the clock in the 3rd, which he missed.

All in all, Kobe played a smart game offensively. Which goes back to the point....why are people criticizing Kobe after the PHI game?

http://espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=400278183
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:19 pm

JGC
But we didn't have a true PG last year. We had Derek Fisher. Who everyone said was so horrible and so terrible (and in many ways, in terms of on court production, he was). So whether we had Nash or not, we certainly shouldn't be substantially worse in terms of assists per possession. Close? Sure. Maybe a little behind? Ok maybe. But we went from 9th BEST to 9th WORST in terms of assists per possession. Now it has gotten better since Nash has come back but even still, that doesn't stand out to you as being a little... interesting at minimum?

Again, you miss the point. One does not equate the other. Our assist ratings are directly resulted by the play of the team. Up until the last 5 or so games we haven't had a team. We have had no Nash, Hobbled Pau, Still rusty Dwight, Morris/Duhon/Meeks, MWP and Kobe. Kobe and MWP have been the only two that have played at a high level all year. Stats say that since Nash has been back we are one of the top assist teams in the league. Nash gets 10 assist which is great but if he is getting half of them off of Kobe doesn't that negate your claim? We can't get an assist if guys aren't making shots. Again, look at all the misses. Those are missed assist. Open jumpers and missed layups are the problem. In any case our assist are going up not down.

I think your response is highly defensive (though understandable) and misses the point to be honest. You're right though. Kobe didn't do anything to single-handedly cost us the game. He also wasn't THE reason we lost. But no player was. And no single player is in ANY game.
When someone says, "Kobe playing Hero ball cost us" that is something that didn't happen then it needs to be pointed out. Some of you only appear to criticize Kobe as if he was the issue.

MWP's 6 for 17 didn't cost us the game. Neither did Dwight's 1-7 or Pau's 2-12 in isolation. But Kobe took what around 20 jumpers and made like 4 or 5 of them (he made all his layups I think for a better percentage). He passed the ball a grand total of TWO times in the game. Every other touch resulted in a shot attempt or a foul call on a drive to the basket. He turned the ball over twice in a critical time in the game and missed shots in that time span as well. His defense was questionable at best. You're right. We didn't LOSE because of him. We didn't WIN because of him either.

Wait so 26 missed shots from our starters and 6th man didn't cost us the game? You are also exxagerating or under actually that Kobe only passed the ball twice. Kobe had some "Kobe shots" that game but when has he not had Kobe shots every game? How is that a shocker? Kobe gets the ball because he gets that ball. If Kobe has a one on one I'll take that just as I would with Dwight, MWP, Pau or Nash. You don't want our best player attacking his mismatches? The whole team is stll slow with the defense not just Kobe.

And please don't tell me about the team being flat. That's the worst excuse ever. At what point in a game, is it acceptable to abandon the team concept?
How is that an excuse? The team came out flat. That is a fact. We were down by 11 in a blink of an eye. The guys didn't play with urgency until the second quarter.

If a player is shooting 1-3 FG, is it ok to freeze them out and not let them shoot again or not until they are 1-4? How many shots before a player is considered to be shooting poorly? What happens if a player starts out 6-6 but then misses 4 straight, do we freeze them out, or do we take the first 6 made in to consideration? We keep saying Dwight is the best center in the league. Ok, at what point do you say it is acceptable to eliminate the best center in the league from any scoring opportunities? I personally don't think there is ever a point at which you stop playing the team game, but if you think there is, and I'll respect that opinion (though disagere with it), I want to know at what point you think it is acceptable for the team to avoid that player from trying to score again.

How did he freeze them out? How do you believe it is Kobe that is freezing them out. His entire career Kobe has shown he will pass to guys who are playing. He battles for position to gain an advantage. Dwight is still getting his game back and his power back. He isn't dominating but you blame that on Kobe? MWP got 17 shots last game. He seems to have no problem finding shooting chances. Pau touches the ball as much as Kobe he isn't aggressive. Nash doesn't shoot unless it is at his best advantage. Dwight, is getting more touches as Nash and Pau both are feeling better. Again, I don't see Kobe "freezing" anyone out. He plays to win and if guys are missing 26 shots he is going to shoot if he has the advantage. Yes, sometimes its a force and is nerve racking but Kobe has played the same way for 17 years now. Why the shock?
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Texas Lakers Fan on Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:25 pm

JGC wrote:
Texas Lakers Fan wrote:Anyone blaming Kobe is just stupid. The man at 34 years old has just been flat out dominant this season. He's leading the league in scoring at over 30 ppg and doing so efficiently. All this b******* about Kobe being a ball hog is exactly that BS. The man is averaging 5 assists along with 5 rebounds as well. His defense is also better than is has been in years. The problem has been Nash has hardly played this season, Pau has played like a p**** just like the last two playoffs, and our coach is being an idiot and won't play our best bench player in Antawn Jamison.


What is wrong with you? Calling people names and bypassing the swear filter twice? You're not setting a very good example here.

Cry me a river. :man10:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby GoldenKnight on Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:48 pm

Texas Lakers Fan wrote:Anyone blaming Kobe is just stupid. The man at 34 years old has just been flat out dominant this season. He's leading the league in scoring at over 30 ppg and doing so efficiently. All this b******* about Kobe being a ball hog is exactly that BS. The man is averaging 5 assists along with 5 rebounds as well. His defense is also better than is has been in years. The problem has been Nash has hardly played this season, Pau has played like a p**** just like the last two playoffs, and our coach is being an idiot and won't play our best bench player in Antawn Jamison.


So Kobe has 0 fault, right? He's perhaps not shooting too much? Not demanding the ball from Nash too much? Nothing? He averages 30ppg so I should be content with individual achievements?
Kobe is not at complete fault, but he does play a part in it as well.
He is shooting too much for my liking, and his problem is ball stopping. I love Kobe as much as the next guy, but it doesn't mean he is our all perfect savior, he does have his flaws and you would be blind to not notice it.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:49 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:But we didn't have a true PG last year. We had Derek Fisher. Who everyone said was so horrible and so terrible (and in many ways, in terms of on court production, he was). So whether we had Nash or not, we certainly shouldn't be substantially worse in terms of assists per possession. Close? Sure. Maybe a little behind? Ok maybe. But we went from 9th BEST to 9th WORST in terms of assists per possession. Now it has gotten better since Nash has come back but even still, that doesn't stand out to you as being a little... interesting at minimum?

Again, you miss the point. One does not equate the other. Our assist ratings are directly resulted by the play of the team. Up until the last 5 or so games we haven't had a team. We have had no Nash, Hobbled Pau, Still rusty Dwight, Morris/Duhon/Meeks, MWP and Kobe. Kobe and MWP have been the only two that have played at a high level all year. Stats say that since Nash has been back we are one of the top assist teams in the league. Nash gets 10 assist which is great but if he is getting half of them off of Kobe doesn't that negate your claim? We can't get an assist if guys aren't making shots. Again, look at all the misses. Those are missed assist. Open jumpers and missed layups are the problem. In any case our assist are going up not down.


So, just to confirm, you do agree with me that the team's ball movement, as a whole this season, hasn't been very good relative to previous seasons right?

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:I think your response is highly defensive (though understandable) and misses the point to be honest. You're right though. Kobe didn't do anything to single-handedly cost us the game. He also wasn't THE reason we lost. But no player was. And no single player is in ANY game.
When someone says, "Kobe playing Hero ball cost us" that is something that didn't happen then it needs to be pointed out. Some of you only appear to criticize Kobe as if he was the issue.


Who said those words? From my impression, we have people criticizing that Kobe didn't pass very much (and thus had no assists) which I think is a fair criticism. I don't recall anyone actually saying that there were no reasons other than Kobe hero ball for the loss.

I think that's the problem. Some of you think that any criticism on Kobe is a criticism on ONLY Kobe.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:MWP's 6 for 17 didn't cost us the game. Neither did Dwight's 1-7 or Pau's 2-12 in isolation. But Kobe took what around 20 jumpers and made like 4 or 5 of them (he made all his layups I think for a better percentage). He passed the ball a grand total of TWO times in the game. Every other touch resulted in a shot attempt or a foul call on a drive to the basket. He turned the ball over twice in a critical time in the game and missed shots in that time span as well. His defense was questionable at best. You're right. We didn't LOSE because of him. We didn't WIN because of him either.

Wait so 26 missed shots from our starters and 6th man didn't cost us the game? You are also exxagerating or under actually that Kobe only passed the ball twice. Kobe had some "Kobe shots" that game but when has he not had Kobe shots every game? How is that a shocker? Kobe gets the ball because he gets that ball. If Kobe has a one on one I'll take that just as I would with Dwight, MWP, Pau or Nash. You don't want our best player attacking his mismatches? The whole team is stll slow with the defense not just Kobe.


No, 26 missed shots doesn't cost you a game. Does it? If that's the case, should teams just put the garbage time team in the moment they have 26 missed shots as a team since there is no chance of winning? We could have won in spite of those missed shots. And we could have won in spite of Kobe's turnovers and missed shots at the end too.

Those missed shots didn't cost us the game, but it certainly didn't get us the win either. Don't you think there might be multiple variables at play here? One of which is the missed shots, the other is lack of D, the other is Kobe not getting teammates involved, etc. Or are you saying Kobe can play like that every game for the rest of his career and you'd be happy with it?

Also, I am not exaggerating about Kobe's passing. I saw two passes that one could reasonably consider an attempt to set up a teammate from Kobe. (So I'm not counting that horrific pass over a double team that went right to 76ers defender as a pass attempt for instance). The two passes I saw were: One at the end of the 2nd quarter, to Meeks for a corner 3 which Meeks missed. The otehr was at the end of the 3rd quarter to Pau at the FT line for a jumper which he missed. That's it. I don't believe there was another successful pass attempt to a teammate in the game. So 1 pass attempt in the first half. Is that ok with you?

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:And please don't tell me about the team being flat. That's the worst excuse ever. At what point in a game, is it acceptable to abandon the team concept?
How is that an excuse? The team came out flat. That is a fact. We were down by 11 in a blink of an eye. The guys didn't play with urgency until the second quarter.

Ok, so answer my question then. At what point in a game, is it acceptable to abandon the team concept? When we're down by X pts? When the team sans Kobe is shooting below some percentage? When? Do we wait until we're down 11 to abandon it, or is it ok to abandon it BEFORE then to avoid a double digit deficit? If the team doesn't seem like they are playing with urgency in the first minute of the game, then it is ok for full on Kobe hero ball from then on out? What happens if the team shows urgency for a play or two? Is it too late?

During the course of a game, when is it ok to say, stop moving it, Kobe just score on your own?

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:If a player is shooting 1-3 FG, is it ok to freeze them out and not let them shoot again or not until they are 1-4? How many shots before a player is considered to be shooting poorly? What happens if a player starts out 6-6 but then misses 4 straight, do we freeze them out, or do we take the first 6 made in to consideration? We keep saying Dwight is the best center in the league. Ok, at what point do you say it is acceptable to eliminate the best center in the league from any scoring opportunities? I personally don't think there is ever a point at which you stop playing the team game, but if you think there is, and I'll respect that opinion (though disagere with it), I want to know at what point you think it is acceptable for the team to avoid that player from trying to score again.

How did he freeze them out? How do you believe it is Kobe that is freezing them out. His entire career Kobe has shown he will pass to guys who are playing. He battles for position to gain an advantage. Dwight is still getting his game back and his power back. He isn't dominating but you blame that on Kobe? MWP got 17 shots last game. He seems to have no problem finding shooting chances. Pau touches the ball as much as Kobe he isn't aggressive. Nash doesn't shoot unless it is at his best advantage. Dwight, is getting more touches as Nash and Pau both are feeling better. Again, I don't see Kobe "freezing" anyone out. He plays to win and if guys are missing 26 shots he is going to shoot if he has the advantage. Yes, sometimes its a force and is nerve racking but Kobe has played the same way for 17 years now. Why the shock?


Well, anyone who takes 30 shots and passes only twice for 0 assists, is freezing out guys to some degree whether it is by intention or not.

I think in general, Kobe plays a great floor game. His numbers prove it, my observations indicate it as well. I think this game, versus the 76ers, is not one I would want to show people who want to see what Kobe Bryant is all about. I don't think it is ever a good thing, or a contributor to winning basketball for a guard whose partial responsibility is to get his teammates going, gets 0 assists. I mean, what has he been lowered to? Nothing more but a Nick Young now? His job is to lead this team, get guys going, play defense, and score too. That's why he gets paid the big bucks. If he's at the point in his career where he can never register an assist again and that's ok then he is WAY WAY overpaid.

I don't understand why you're so defensive about this. There were multiple cirucmstances, PARTICULARLY in the second half, where Kobe could have played more team ball. Why you don't think Kobe couldn't have possibly played more team ball against the 76ers is crazy to me. I've seen him play much better team ball and I KNOW you have also.

Kobe has been criticized for shooting too much for 17 years now. Why the shock?
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:51 pm

Texas Lakers Fan wrote:
JGC wrote:
Texas Lakers Fan wrote:Anyone blaming Kobe is just stupid. The man at 34 years old has just been flat out dominant this season. He's leading the league in scoring at over 30 ppg and doing so efficiently. All this b******* about Kobe being a ball hog is exactly that BS. The man is averaging 5 assists along with 5 rebounds as well. His defense is also better than is has been in years. The problem has been Nash has hardly played this season, Pau has played like a p**** just like the last two playoffs, and our coach is being an idiot and won't play our best bench player in Antawn Jamison.


What is wrong with you? Calling people names and bypassing the swear filter twice? You're not setting a very good example here.

Cry me a river. :man10:


You did all of these things knowing you're not supposed to and you just did it anyway? That's just a big middle finger to the mods around here. What could they have possibly done to you?
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