Kobe Bryant Discussion: Reason for Lakers downfall?

Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby SpencerHarrison on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:05 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:Ill respond the way I know you appreciate. One block at a time.
JGC wrote:There is really no rationalization for Kobe being an MVP favorite this year. His stats, relative to his peers, does not warrant it. Two players are posting elite numbers at a rate of efficiency Kobe has never done even if you took his best shooting, 3pt and FT shooting from any season and mushed them together. And on top of that, their teams are doing substantially better record wise.

So in your never ending crusade to not give Kobe credit you make your own rules for MVP. Cool. His stats are comparable to his peers who are front runners for MVP but he doesn't get the nod because their healthy teams are doing better than his team with significant injuries. Hmmm. You might want to recheck what an MVP really is and not what ESPN has turned it into in order to give it to Lebron again. An MVP isn't just about stats. While Lebron is being praised it seems people keep forgetting that other guy who is also putting up great numbers he plays with... You know #3. Same for KD who relies on Westbrook. But hey, the guy who is also putting up the same numbers and has changed his role 5 times so his team could even remotely stay in reach of the playoffs isn't worthy. You can be all against him all you want but your "no rationalization" is not only irrational but well wrong.

You don't get bonus points because your team was injured. You don't get bonus points for being old. You don't get bonus points for playing in a tougher conference. That's not how MVP works. MVP is about who had the best season period. A player should get extra points for facing adversity? Pathetic. That's not what MVP is about. MVP is about weathering through whatever you have to, to have the best individual and team season. Hence, you know, valuable! I have never seen a fan base make so many excuses for a player who shouldn't need any.

Actually you do. You get bonus points for carrying a team through injury. It is the same reason guys lose MVP votes when they get injured yet their teams still win without them. Spurs winning hurts TP's MVP case. You have never seen a fan base make so many excuses because you have it in your head that it is your roll to "educate" us all in your wisdom. I'll help you out with why fans think that way.... Conference matters because putting up good numbers against tougher opposition is important. Playing through adversity is also important. But most importantly, "Valuable" means can't win without to most fans. That is what the MVP stood for before the latest changes. I am sure you use to know that but in your attempts to discredit Kobe you have failed to see the truth. But hey, hate is, you know... hate.

It's so ironic. In 2005-2006, Nash won his second MVP. He got his Suns to the 2nd seed in that oh-so-tough Western Conference. He had Amare Stoudemire for a grand total of THREE games that season and they weren't even complete games. He played a total of 16 mins over each of those 3 games that season. Barbosa (1 season removed from his career year) missed 25 games. Yet... you weren't picking Nash for MVP that year.

It isn't ironic. The ironic thing is you have so much anti-Kobe stats on call. Interesting. However, Kobe carried a team that most of the starters arent even in the league anymore while putting up incredible stats. What is funny is I am one of the biggest Nash supporters (go ahead and check the history if it makes you happy). By the way Kobe had himself and an injured LO playing in that same tough conference. You are trying to hard again.

You know, it would be a lot better if people would be transparent and just admit that their MVP pick is Kobe is because he's a Laker and their favorite one at that. That's fine then, we won't even have to debate. But to pretend as if you have this real and objective criteria by which you nominate MVP candidates and lo and behold it's Kobe once again for the 17th time in a row, come on, you aren't fooling anybody and you certainly aren't fooling me.


Then why don't you be equally transparent and say you are a Kobe hater? We also wouldn't have to debate. Easy. I didn't try to fool you because simply there is no need. Your game has been the same since you joined. Yup, still the same. I do love how you try to pretend you are "impartial" and have a "criteria" at all. But hey keep lying it makes for a good laugh.


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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:07 am

Real question for both of you two (JGC and Maluco)... What is your definition of MVP? Specific. What is the "real" criteria as you two understand?

Oh and Maluco you are called a hater because your post have no logical reason for the hate you spew about Kobe. No one is making you out to be anything more than you have shown. And before JGC turns around and says "Look Puffy calling names" I am not I am simply stating why Mr. Maluco gets called a hater. Helping him understand. Team Lakers :jam2:
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby JGC on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:18 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:Ill respond the way I know you appreciate. One block at a time.
JGC wrote:There is really no rationalization for Kobe being an MVP favorite this year. His stats, relative to his peers, does not warrant it. Two players are posting elite numbers at a rate of efficiency Kobe has never done even if you took his best shooting, 3pt and FT shooting from any season and mushed them together. And on top of that, their teams are doing substantially better record wise.

So in your never ending crusade to not give Kobe credit you make your own rules for MVP. Cool. His stats are comparable to his peers who are front runners for MVP but he doesn't get the nod because their healthy teams are doing better than his team with significant injuries. Hmmm. You might want to recheck what an MVP really is and not what ESPN has turned it into in order to give it to Lebron again. An MVP isn't just about stats. While Lebron is being praised it seems people keep forgetting that other guy who is also putting up great numbers he plays with... You know #3. Same for KD who relies on Westbrook. But hey, the guy who is also putting up the same numbers and has changed his role 5 times so his team could even remotely stay in reach of the playoffs isn't worthy. You can be all against him all you want but your "no rationalization" is not only irrational but well wrong.


I'm not making my own rules for MVP. I'm following the rules and guidelines by which MVPs are selected. Which is, in a nutshell, the best player on the best team. That's how they've been doing it for years now. Did you not know this or are you just trying to be difficult?

You're adding in all these exclusions like oh umm tougher conference and yeah ummm injuries and stuff. I mean, those things have never been taken in to consideration in the MVP discussion. You're only doing that now because you're trying to make the shoe fit for you. Have you EVER used those exclusions before, or is this the first time? Suspicious!

So by the very definition itself, there is no rationalization for Kobe being the MVP this year. He hasn't been the best player (stats or otherwise, though he has been AMONG the best in that regard) and his team record isn't there (borderline playoff team).

Maybe you're right that people are forgetting Lebron plays with Wade. But it is clear you've conveniently forgotten that Kobe plays with Dwight Howard.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:You don't get bonus points because your team was injured. You don't get bonus points for being old. You don't get bonus points for playing in a tougher conference. That's not how MVP works. MVP is about who had the best season period. A player should get extra points for facing adversity? Pathetic. That's not what MVP is about. MVP is about weathering through whatever you have to, to have the best individual and team season. Hence, you know, valuable! I have never seen a fan base make so many excuses for a player who shouldn't need any.

Actually you do. You get bonus points for carrying a team through injury. It is the same reason guys lose MVP votes when they get injured yet their teams still win without them. Spurs winning hurts TP's MVP case. You have never seen a fan base make so many excuses because you have it in your head that it is your roll to "educate" us all in your wisdom. I'll help you out with why fans think that way.... Conference matters because putting up good numbers against tougher opposition is important. Playing through adversity is also important. But most importantly, "Valuable" means can't win without to most fans. That is what the MVP stood for before the latest changes. I am sure you use to know that but in your attempts to discredit Kobe you have failed to see the truth. But hey, hate is, you know... hate.


Of course you think they're important here. You need them to be important to make your case. That's why I brought up the Nash example. They weren't important then because that helped his case. It's clear that what is important for you, are any factors you can rely on to force the shoe to fit.

Since you believe injuries are the #1 reason we aren't elite this year, you must believe the real MVP of this team are the injured players no? We can't win without them.

I'll wait for some other things to become important.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:It's so ironic. In 2005-2006, Nash won his second MVP. He got his Suns to the 2nd seed in that oh-so-tough Western Conference. He had Amare Stoudemire for a grand total of THREE games that season and they weren't even complete games. He played a total of 16 mins over each of those 3 games that season. Barbosa (1 season removed from his career year) missed 25 games. Yet... you weren't picking Nash for MVP that year.

It isn't ironic. The ironic thing is you have so much anti-Kobe stats on call. Interesting. However, Kobe carried a team that most of the starters arent even in the league anymore while putting up incredible stats. What is funny is I am one of the biggest Nash supporters (go ahead and check the history if it makes you happy). By the way Kobe had himself and an injured LO playing in that same tough conference. You are trying to hard again.


Oh, NOW stats are important again. Flip, meet flop. Let's look past stats this year (for obvious reasons), but let's definitely look at them in the 2005-2006 year when I need them.

Then let's try being deceptive (an especially sneaky tactic). Let's just say that LO was injured too and hope he (and anyone else for that matter) doesn't know that Lamar not only played 80 games that season, but averaged the highest minutes per game of his entire career. Oopsies.

Using your own criteria, Nash had to be the easy MVP choice for you in 2006 right? Much better record in a tougher conference, dealing with major adversity (Amare out for essentially the entire season 79/82 games, Barbosa out 25 games), and big time stats (19/11 on 50/40/90). He was your pick right? Nope. Yeah, real shocker.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:You know, it would be a lot better if people would be transparent and just admit that their MVP pick is Kobe is because he's a Laker and their favorite one at that. That's fine then, we won't even have to debate. But to pretend as if you have this real and objective criteria by which you nominate MVP candidates and lo and behold it's Kobe once again for the 17th time in a row, come on, you aren't fooling anybody and you certainly aren't fooling me.


Then why don't you be equally transparent and say you are a Kobe hater? We also wouldn't have to debate. Easy. I didn't try to fool you because simply there is no need. Your game has been the same since you joined. Yup, still the same. I do love how you try to pretend you are "impartial" and have a "criteria" at all. But hey keep lying it makes for a good laugh.


First off, you can't frame up a question like that to call me a hater. You're really not supposed to do that. You can ask me if I don't like Kobe if you want. That you're allowed to do.

Now, the answer is that I don't hate Kobe. Do I always love his game? No, I don't. I'm pretty critical. I'm not sure if not thinking a player should have won his 17th straight MVP award quite qualifies as being a hater. I'd be more than happy if Kobe won it. I'd be happy if he won DPOY too. Does he deserve either? Not this year, in my mind. I hope the fact that I don't think he should get DPOY doesn't make me a hater too. Or does it? Are you thinking he should get it? I mean, he's had so much adversity and that tough conference and injuries! You seem to think that a person has to pick Kobe for MVP every single year he plays in order to not be a hater. Why is that? I thought he was clearly the MVP in 2008 but not any of the seasons after that and that includes this one. Sorry!

And you're right. My game has been the same since I joined. It would be hard to make much sense of me if I changed direction every few days. Know what I mean?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby checkers09 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:24 am

The Rock wrote:Kim Jong Un :man10:



That was funny. :man10:

Yet as I watched him Monday, I could not help think how little it mattered and how right he is. He is not fading into the shadows. He does not know how to go out that way.[.]
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby SpencerHarrison on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:26 am

"Most Valuable Player"

read: NOT "Player with the highest average stats in points, rebounds, assists, efficiency"

Who is the most valuable player in the NBA? I imagine the player who's achievements in the course of a season have been the most key catalyst toward their teams success. And as Puffy pointed out, EVERYTHING counts in that conversation. Injuries count, adversity counts. Age counts. Fame counts.

I think it's a 3 man race: LeBron, Kobe and Durant.

LeBron has such a great comfort level in Miami. They have had time to settle in and maximize their strengths. Took a bit, but Miami is just such a well oiled machine. He is certainly valuable and critical there. I watch him this season and see a great player, but one totally unworthy of the media froth going on. He gets a lot of touch calls, free travels and general superstar treatment. But still very, very good.

Durant I think is a distant third. He is a smooth and talented scorer, and has length to spare on D. But I also think OKC's makeup is brilliant, and allows Durant to play to his strengths when he wants to, and the ability to ease back and let Westbrook initiate. He may wow with numbers, but the system of that team has been in place, with the same personel for a long time. They know how to play together, and how to get KD his best spots. Again, a smooth machine.

Kobe has done some remarkable things this year with a banged up, confused and desperate team. He has been the glue holding things together. When everyone was disgusted and turning off their TVs (or illegal internet streams), Kobe was solving problems. He scored. He passed. He played D. He worked with other big egos. He worked with 2 coaches to try and win. He's kept his cool in the media, and actually gave a few great thoughts on the passing of Dr.Buss. He's been a great Laker, a great leader, a fantastic and versatile player, and a fierce competitor.

IF the Lakers get into the playoffs, it will be because of Kobe Bryant. If they do that, I would give him the MVP.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Cleansed on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:30 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote: What is your definition of MVP? Specific. What is the "real" criteria as you two understand?


These questions address something that has really made me less of a sports fan over the years. Or at least less of one that shares my passion for the NBA with others whether it be online or off.

The inability to stick to a consistent criteria or stance.

I understand that one can change their perspective or opinion based upon newly discovered data that they previously were not aware of. However...to be faced with data that contradicts and disproves ones perspective /opinion overwhelmingly & clearly and STILL not change ones opinion * or at the very least qualify it by admitting an emotional bias* is sickening and outside of sports flat out dangerous.

You see this type of behavior on display more often than not in politics (especially American politics) or when dealing with events that force one to reexamine ones paradigm and beliefs.

Are there other deserving MVP candidates than Kobe? Perhaps. Tony Parker really does (did) fit my definition of an MVP this year. Long time fans and posters know how this story goes though so i'm not interested in debating who *will* win as i've been around long enough to know thats been decided. What i'm interested in knowing from a fans perspective (not media) is who *deserves* MVP based upon the truest definition of the title? A minimum qualification is the team has to make the playoffs. I'm assuming the Lakers will.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby slimjim on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:32 am

Kobe is far from the MVP this season, not even close. I predict he doesn't even make the top 3 in voting. and it has nothing to do with people under-appreciating Kobe or a bias, or hate. It is simple logic and following precedent.

Below are the winners each year and the number of wins they had.
2011/12 Lebron James 46 wins (66 game season. ~57 wins extrapolated over 82 game season)
2010/11 Derrick Rose 62 wins
2009/10 Lebron James 61 wins
2008/09 Lebron James 66 wins
2007/08 Kobe Bryant 57 wins
2006/07 Dirk Nowitzki 67 wins
2005/06 Steve Nash 54 wins
2004/05 Steve Nash 62 wins
2003/04 Kevin Garnett 58 wins
2002/03 Tim Duncan 60 wins
2001/02 Tim Duncan 58 wins
2000/01 Allen Iverson phi 56 wins
1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal 67 wins
1998/99 Karl Malone 61 wins
1997/98 Michael Jordan 62 wins
1996/97 Karl Malone 64 wins
1995/96 Michael Jordan 72 wins
1994/95 David Robinson 62 wins
1993/94 Hakeem Olajuwon 58 wins
1992/93 Charles Barkley 62 wins
1991/92 Michael Jordan 67 wins
1990/91 Michael Jordan 61 wins
1989/90 Magic Johnson 63 wins
1988/89 Magic Johnson 57 wins
1987/88 Michael Jordan 50 wins
1986/87 Magic Johnson 65 wins
1985/86 Larry Bird 67 wins
1984/85 Larry Bird 63 wins


Here's the definition of the MVP (What I think the criteria is, and what seems to be consist with the past 30+ years.)

1) Your team needs ~55+ wins
2) You are the leader of the team
3) Based on criteria 1 and 2. The list of candidates should be narrowed down to ~5-7 players
4) The debate for MVP should only be discussed among those 5-7 players. This is where you start to make the arguments about who's the most valuable. Qualitative arguments. (This is where the analysis of individual players comes into the mix)

It's that simple folks.
Last edited by slimjim on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby SpencerHarrison on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:33 am

slimjim wrote:Kobe is far from the MVP this season, not even close. I predict he doesn't even make the top 3 in voting. and it has nothing to do with people under-appreciating Kobe or a bias, or hate. It is simple logic and following precedent.

Below are the winners each year and the number of wins they had.

Having ~55+ wins is not a criteria. it's the bare minimum.

2011/12 Lebron James 46 wins (66 game season. ~57 wins extrapolated over 82 game season)
2010/11 Derrick Rose 62 wins
2009/10 Lebron James 61 wins
2008/09 Lebron James 66 wins
2007/08 Kobe Bryant 57 wins
2006/07 Dirk Nowitzki 67 wins
2005/06 Steve Nash 54 wins
2004/05 Steve Nash 62 wins
2003/04 Kevin Garnett 58 wins
2002/03 Tim Duncan 60 wins
2001/02 Tim Duncan 58 wins
2000/01 Allen Iverson phi 56 wins
1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal 67 wins
1998/99 Karl Malone 61 wins
1997/98 Michael Jordan 62 wins
1996/97 Karl Malone 64 wins
1995/96 Michael Jordan 72 wins
1994/95 David Robinson 62 wins
1993/94 Hakeem Olajuwon 58 wins
1992/93 Charles Barkley 62 wins
1991/92 Michael Jordan 67 wins
1990/91 Michael Jordan 61 wins
1989/90 Magic Johnson 63 wins
1988/89 Magic Johnson 57 wins
1987/88 Michael Jordan 50 wins
1986/87 Magic Johnson 65 wins
1985/86 Larry Bird 67 wins
1984/85 Larry Bird 63 wins


Here's the definition of the MVP (What I think the criteria is, and what seems to be consist with the past 30+ years.)

1) Your team needs ~55+ wins
2) You are the leader of the team
3) Based on criteria 1 and 2. The list of candidates should be narrowed down to ~5-7 players
4) The debate for MVP should only be discussed among those 5-7 players. This is where you start to make the arguments about who's the most valuable. Qualitative arguments. (This is where the analysis of individual players comes into the mix)

It's that simple folks.


I can live with that
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby JGC on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:35 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:Real question for both of you two (JGC and Maluco)... What is your definition of MVP? Specific. What is the "real" criteria as you two understand?

Oh and Maluco you are called a hater because your post have no logical reason for the hate you spew about Kobe. No one is making you out to be anything more than you have shown. And before JGC turns around and says "Look Puffy calling names" I am not I am simply stating why Mr. Maluco gets called a hater. Helping him understand. Team Lakers :jam2:


But, you're one of the people that calls him a hater. LOL. So you've just stated why you call him a hater?

Anyway, doesn't really matter what MY definition is. What matters is what is THE definition. And THE definition is the best player on the best team. In other words, the candidates for the award have to have ELITE statistics and exceptional team records. I think you can probably get away with not having an exceptional team record, but, then you have to have stats no one else can touch.

That's why I had Kobe picked for MVP in 2006 even though Nash was well-deserving as well. 35.4 PPG? Ridiculous. No one has touched that mark since Jordan. Team record was only a 7 seed I think that year, but he stood out, ALONE, in the stats department so in my view that is an exception.

I don't factor in if a player had a boo boo, if his teammate had a boo boo, if his teammates were great, or if his teammates suck. Doesn't make much sense to do that anyway. People want to discount LBJ because he has great teammates, and when he had garbage teammates, people want to discount LBJ because he had garbage teammates and so he got the ball all the time. The argument can swing both ways. It shouldn't count against Kobe that he has Dwight. Produce. Put up numbers and will your teams to wins in the face adversity. MVP winners don't get a pity party for tough times. Come on. The league has gotten soft but we don't have to.

The MVP goes to the player who produces the most individually and via his team period. The most valuable players can overcome adversity to produce (i.e. Nash in 2006 and why he was a valid candidate IMO). An MVP candidate needs no caveats.

The more you try to sell and explain it, the more apparent it is that said player is probably not a top candidate. My gut says this year, Kobe isn't the MVP because other players have better numbers AND records, and when I see the lengthy explanations and novels from those trying to squeeze every bit of reason in to why we can force him in to that discussion, it tells me my gut is right.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby slimjim on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:39 am

Another point...

The Lakers have been a HUGE disappointment this season. If someone made a thread at the beginning of the season saying we'd be fighting for the 8th spot in march. They'd be labelled a troll/hater/idiot/etc.

No one thought the Lakers would be this bad. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE.

and now some people are trying to argue Kobe for the MVP?

nope sorry. not going to happen.
Last edited by slimjim on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby JGC on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:43 am

SpencerHarrison wrote:
slimjim wrote:Kobe is far from the MVP this season, not even close. I predict he doesn't even make the top 3 in voting. and it has nothing to do with people under-appreciating Kobe or a bias, or hate. It is simple logic and following precedent.

Below are the winners each year and the number of wins they had.

Having ~55+ wins is not a criteria. it's the bare minimum.

2011/12 Lebron James 46 wins (66 game season. ~57 wins extrapolated over 82 game season)
2010/11 Derrick Rose 62 wins
2009/10 Lebron James 61 wins
2008/09 Lebron James 66 wins
2007/08 Kobe Bryant 57 wins
2006/07 Dirk Nowitzki 67 wins
2005/06 Steve Nash 54 wins
2004/05 Steve Nash 62 wins
2003/04 Kevin Garnett 58 wins
2002/03 Tim Duncan 60 wins
2001/02 Tim Duncan 58 wins
2000/01 Allen Iverson phi 56 wins
1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal 67 wins
1998/99 Karl Malone 61 wins
1997/98 Michael Jordan 62 wins
1996/97 Karl Malone 64 wins
1995/96 Michael Jordan 72 wins
1994/95 David Robinson 62 wins
1993/94 Hakeem Olajuwon 58 wins
1992/93 Charles Barkley 62 wins
1991/92 Michael Jordan 67 wins
1990/91 Michael Jordan 61 wins
1989/90 Magic Johnson 63 wins
1988/89 Magic Johnson 57 wins
1987/88 Michael Jordan 50 wins
1986/87 Magic Johnson 65 wins
1985/86 Larry Bird 67 wins
1984/85 Larry Bird 63 wins


Here's the definition of the MVP (What I think the criteria is, and what seems to be consist with the past 30+ years.)

1) Your team needs ~55+ wins
2) You are the leader of the team
3) Based on criteria 1 and 2. The list of candidates should be narrowed down to ~5-7 players
4) The debate for MVP should only be discussed among those 5-7 players. This is where you start to make the arguments about who's the most valuable. Qualitative arguments. (This is where the analysis of individual players comes into the mix)

It's that simple folks.


I can live with that


But, but, he's been a great Laker and glue-ish and said nice things at Jerry's memorial! Good grief guys, come on. I mean for that to be reasons that are MVP-like than leading the league in scoring while putting up a 50/40/90 season which almost never, ever happens, I mean, is it even about basketball anymore? Why not just give the community award winner the MVP. What Kobe did at Jerry's memorial service was awesome and inspiring, but has absolutely zero bearing on an MVP decision.

As for the win/loss method. It's actually not a bad way to frame it up. It makes sense. If the Lakers were the top seed in the West, then you're right, he would be an easy top 3 candidate IMO.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby SpencerHarrison on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:46 am

JGC wrote:
SpencerHarrison wrote:
slimjim wrote:Kobe is far from the MVP this season, not even close. I predict he doesn't even make the top 3 in voting. and it has nothing to do with people under-appreciating Kobe or a bias, or hate. It is simple logic and following precedent.

Below are the winners each year and the number of wins they had.

Having ~55+ wins is not a criteria. it's the bare minimum.

2011/12 Lebron James 46 wins (66 game season. ~57 wins extrapolated over 82 game season)
2010/11 Derrick Rose 62 wins
2009/10 Lebron James 61 wins
2008/09 Lebron James 66 wins
2007/08 Kobe Bryant 57 wins
2006/07 Dirk Nowitzki 67 wins
2005/06 Steve Nash 54 wins
2004/05 Steve Nash 62 wins
2003/04 Kevin Garnett 58 wins
2002/03 Tim Duncan 60 wins
2001/02 Tim Duncan 58 wins
2000/01 Allen Iverson phi 56 wins
1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal 67 wins
1998/99 Karl Malone 61 wins
1997/98 Michael Jordan 62 wins
1996/97 Karl Malone 64 wins
1995/96 Michael Jordan 72 wins
1994/95 David Robinson 62 wins
1993/94 Hakeem Olajuwon 58 wins
1992/93 Charles Barkley 62 wins
1991/92 Michael Jordan 67 wins
1990/91 Michael Jordan 61 wins
1989/90 Magic Johnson 63 wins
1988/89 Magic Johnson 57 wins
1987/88 Michael Jordan 50 wins
1986/87 Magic Johnson 65 wins
1985/86 Larry Bird 67 wins
1984/85 Larry Bird 63 wins


Here's the definition of the MVP (What I think the criteria is, and what seems to be consist with the past 30+ years.)

1) Your team needs ~55+ wins
2) You are the leader of the team
3) Based on criteria 1 and 2. The list of candidates should be narrowed down to ~5-7 players
4) The debate for MVP should only be discussed among those 5-7 players. This is where you start to make the arguments about who's the most valuable. Qualitative arguments. (This is where the analysis of individual players comes into the mix)

It's that simple folks.


I can live with that


But, but, he's been a great Laker and glue-ish and said nice things at Jerry's memorial! Good grief guys, come on. I mean for that to be reasons that are MVP-like than leading the league in scoring while putting up a 50/40/90 season which almost never, ever happens, I mean, is it even about basketball anymore? Why not just give the community award winner the MVP. What Kobe did at Jerry's memorial service was awesome and inspiring, but has absolutely zero bearing on an MVP decision.

As for the win/loss method. It's actually not a bad way to frame it up. It makes sense. If the Lakers were the top seed in the West, then you're right, he would be an easy top 3 candidate IMO.


I heard a good argument of criteria and I'm okay with that. Sorry?

I think that's a compelling case. I think "his numbers aren't the best in the league and the team sucks" is weaker than a clear look at how there has historically been a clear threshold of wins. I still stand by what I said, but I can live with that win criteria.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby JGC on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:51 am

slimjim wrote:Another point...

The Lakers have been a HUGE disappointment this season. If someone made a thread at the beginning of the season saying we'd be fighting for the 8th spot in march. They'd be labelled a troll/hater/idiot/etc.

No one thought the Lakers would be this bad. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE.

and now some people are trying to argue Kobe for the MVP?

nope sorry. not going to happen.


Yeah. In fact there WAS a thread. Someone posted a thread about Hollinger's predictions for the season putting us 4th. It's here => post3715789.html

We went from those responses to now Kobe is an MVP for leading the Lakers to a POSSIBLE playoff berth as worst playoff seed in the West because we're in a tough conference??? Yikes.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby slimjim on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:56 am

Sorry, one last point.

The team mates "injury" argument only works because it strengthens the "wins" debate.

Example: Nash was still able to get 2nd seed/54 wins despite not having amare stoudemire all season.

The injury argument can not be used to explain the lack of W's


Example: OK fine, so Kobe doesn't have 55+ wins this season, but that's because of the injuries to his team.

See the difference? One is a great point (Nash in 05/06). The latter if used, is an excuse.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby ZenMaster4President on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:58 am

slimjim wrote:Kobe is far from the MVP this season, not even close. I predict he doesn't even make the top 3 in voting. and it has nothing to do with people under-appreciating Kobe or a bias, or hate. It is simple logic and following precedent.

Below are the winners each year and the number of wins they had.
2011/12 Lebron James 46 wins (66 game season. ~57 wins extrapolated over 82 game season)
2010/11 Derrick Rose 62 wins
2009/10 Lebron James 61 wins
2008/09 Lebron James 66 wins
2007/08 Kobe Bryant 57 wins
2006/07 Dirk Nowitzki 67 wins
2005/06 Steve Nash 54 wins
2004/05 Steve Nash 62 wins
2003/04 Kevin Garnett 58 wins
2002/03 Tim Duncan 60 wins
2001/02 Tim Duncan 58 wins
2000/01 Allen Iverson phi 56 wins
1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal 67 wins
1998/99 Karl Malone 61 wins
1997/98 Michael Jordan 62 wins
1996/97 Karl Malone 64 wins
1995/96 Michael Jordan 72 wins
1994/95 David Robinson 62 wins
1993/94 Hakeem Olajuwon 58 wins
1992/93 Charles Barkley 62 wins
1991/92 Michael Jordan 67 wins
1990/91 Michael Jordan 61 wins
1989/90 Magic Johnson 63 wins
1988/89 Magic Johnson 57 wins
1987/88 Michael Jordan 50 wins
1986/87 Magic Johnson 65 wins
1985/86 Larry Bird 67 wins
1984/85 Larry Bird 63 wins


Here's the definition of the MVP (What I think the criteria is, and what seems to be consist with the past 30+ years.)

1) Your team needs ~55+ wins
2) You are the leader of the team
3) Based on criteria 1 and 2. The list of candidates should be narrowed down to ~5-7 players
4) The debate for MVP should only be discussed among those 5-7 players. This is where you start to make the arguments about who's the most valuable. Qualitative arguments. (This is where the analysis of individual players comes into the mix)

It's that simple folks.


What you just described is not why Kobe isn't an MVP. It's why he won't get MVP even though by all reasonable accounts he should be a front runner along with CP3.

MVP is an individual award. It stands for Most Valuable Player. To his team. If the the team with a player won 40 games, but without him would struggle to win 10 - that guy is an MVP for his team. Each team has one.

The purpose of the voting should have been to determine who of those team MVPs is MVP-er. That is all.

The fact that Clippers win 55 games with CP3 and the Lakers might win 45 with Kobe should affect the comparison between PLAYERS.

The same Clippser squad may be able to get 50 wins with Bledsoe instead of CP3. The Lakers would be in the lottery without Kobe.
Last edited by ZenMaster4President on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby kobe_008 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:02 am

HELl YEAH!!! Puffyyyyy
i have seen through this guy the frst time he posted.
he always tries to justify but deep inside his hating and hurting himself.
lol
poor guy
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby JGC on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:02 am

SpencerHarrison wrote:I heard a good argument of criteria and I'm okay with that. Sorry?

I think that's a compelling case. I think "his numbers aren't the best in the league and the team sucks" is weaker than a clear look at how there has historically been a clear threshold of wins. I still stand by what I said, but I can live with that win criteria.


Yeah, fair enough. And I agree, his explanation is a good one and makes sense.

I just believe that awards like MVP, or even labels like "clutch", are about getting it done. Doesn't matter if your team is hurt. Doesn't matter what conference you play in or how old you are. Isn't that what is so admirable about Kobe as a player? He's hurt and when he's asked about it, won't even mention it. He'll say, it doesn't matter. Get the job done. Find a way to score and find a way to win. That's what MVPs do.

MVPs don't get to fall short of their goal and then use adversity or injury as an excuse to negate the fact they fell short of their goal.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby JGC on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:07 am

ZenMaster4President wrote:
slimjim wrote:Kobe is far from the MVP this season, not even close. I predict he doesn't even make the top 3 in voting. and it has nothing to do with people under-appreciating Kobe or a bias, or hate. It is simple logic and following precedent.

Below are the winners each year and the number of wins they had.
2011/12 Lebron James 46 wins (66 game season. ~57 wins extrapolated over 82 game season)
2010/11 Derrick Rose 62 wins
2009/10 Lebron James 61 wins
2008/09 Lebron James 66 wins
2007/08 Kobe Bryant 57 wins
2006/07 Dirk Nowitzki 67 wins
2005/06 Steve Nash 54 wins
2004/05 Steve Nash 62 wins
2003/04 Kevin Garnett 58 wins
2002/03 Tim Duncan 60 wins
2001/02 Tim Duncan 58 wins
2000/01 Allen Iverson phi 56 wins
1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal 67 wins
1998/99 Karl Malone 61 wins
1997/98 Michael Jordan 62 wins
1996/97 Karl Malone 64 wins
1995/96 Michael Jordan 72 wins
1994/95 David Robinson 62 wins
1993/94 Hakeem Olajuwon 58 wins
1992/93 Charles Barkley 62 wins
1991/92 Michael Jordan 67 wins
1990/91 Michael Jordan 61 wins
1989/90 Magic Johnson 63 wins
1988/89 Magic Johnson 57 wins
1987/88 Michael Jordan 50 wins
1986/87 Magic Johnson 65 wins
1985/86 Larry Bird 67 wins
1984/85 Larry Bird 63 wins


Here's the definition of the MVP (What I think the criteria is, and what seems to be consist with the past 30+ years.)

1) Your team needs ~55+ wins
2) You are the leader of the team
3) Based on criteria 1 and 2. The list of candidates should be narrowed down to ~5-7 players
4) The debate for MVP should only be discussed among those 5-7 players. This is where you start to make the arguments about who's the most valuable. Qualitative arguments. (This is where the analysis of individual players comes into the mix)

It's that simple folks.


What you just described is not why Kobe isn't an MVP. It's why he won't get MVP even though by all reasonable accounts he should be a front runner along with CP3.

MVP is an individual award. It stands for Most Valuable Player. To his team. If the the team with a player won 40 games, but without him would struggle to win 10 - that guy is an MVP for his team. Each team has one.

The purpose of the voting should have been to determine who of those team MVPs is MVP-er. That is all.

The fact that Clippers win 55 games with CP3 and the Lakers might win 45 with Kobe should affect the comparison between PLAYERS.

The same Clippser squad may be able to get 50 wins with Bledsoe instead of CP3. The Lakers would be in the lottery without Kobe.


But the definition of an NBA League MVP means you have to have good individual numbers AND a good team record (with an approx threshold of 55 wins).

What you're saying is that the ZenMaster4President MVP Award (a separate set of definitions) could be won by Kobe. The NBA one appears to have much different requirements. Aren't we talking about the NBA League MVP award?

Also, the Lakers haven't been without Kobe this season, so what are you saying with your example, that the injured role players are the MVP then?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby slimjim on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:10 am

ZenMaster4President wrote:
slimjim wrote:Kobe is far from the MVP this season, not even close. I predict he doesn't even make the top 3 in voting. and it has nothing to do with people under-appreciating Kobe or a bias, or hate. It is simple logic and following precedent.

Below are the winners each year and the number of wins they had.
2011/12 Lebron James 46 wins (66 game season. ~57 wins extrapolated over 82 game season)
2010/11 Derrick Rose 62 wins
2009/10 Lebron James 61 wins
2008/09 Lebron James 66 wins
2007/08 Kobe Bryant 57 wins
2006/07 Dirk Nowitzki 67 wins
2005/06 Steve Nash 54 wins
2004/05 Steve Nash 62 wins
2003/04 Kevin Garnett 58 wins
2002/03 Tim Duncan 60 wins
2001/02 Tim Duncan 58 wins
2000/01 Allen Iverson phi 56 wins
1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal 67 wins
1998/99 Karl Malone 61 wins
1997/98 Michael Jordan 62 wins
1996/97 Karl Malone 64 wins
1995/96 Michael Jordan 72 wins
1994/95 David Robinson 62 wins
1993/94 Hakeem Olajuwon 58 wins
1992/93 Charles Barkley 62 wins
1991/92 Michael Jordan 67 wins
1990/91 Michael Jordan 61 wins
1989/90 Magic Johnson 63 wins
1988/89 Magic Johnson 57 wins
1987/88 Michael Jordan 50 wins
1986/87 Magic Johnson 65 wins
1985/86 Larry Bird 67 wins
1984/85 Larry Bird 63 wins


Here's the definition of the MVP (What I think the criteria is, and what seems to be consist with the past 30+ years.)

1) Your team needs ~55+ wins
2) You are the leader of the team
3) Based on criteria 1 and 2. The list of candidates should be narrowed down to ~5-7 players
4) The debate for MVP should only be discussed among those 5-7 players. This is where you start to make the arguments about who's the most valuable. Qualitative arguments. (This is where the analysis of individual players comes into the mix)

It's that simple folks.


What you just described is not why Kobe isn't an MVP. It's why he won't get MVP even though by all reasonable accounts he should be a front runner along with CP3.

MVP is an individual award. It stands for Most Valuable Player. To his team. If the the team with a player won 40 games, but without him would struggle to win 10 - that guy is an MVP for his team. Each team has one.

The purpose of the voting should have been to determine who of those team MVPs is MVP-er. That is all.

The fact that Clippers win 55 games with CP3 and the Lakers might win 45 with Kobe should affect the comparison between PLAYERS.

The same Clippser squad may be able to get 50 wins with Bledsoe instead of CP3. The Lakers would be in the lottery without Kobe.


What my post describes is why Kobe shouldn't even be considered in the top 3 for MVP. It's not a bias opinion either. It's simply following precedent and logic.

Like I said in my post... an MVP candidate has to fulfill 2 criteria before the qualitative arguments can be made on their behalf.

Let me know if you see any holes in my reasoning based on wins and precedent. I''d be glad to explain them in more detail.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby JGC on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:15 am

ZenMaster4President wrote:The same Clippser squad may be able to get 50 wins with Bledsoe instead of CP3. The Lakers would be in the lottery without Kobe.


I should also add.... that this statement is purely hypothetical. I'm not sure that Kobe should be considered just because hypothetically, with Bledsoe they'd get 50 wins but without Kobe they'd be in the lottery. That's just some made up statement that no one knows to be true.

All we do know is that the Clippers went 6-6 without CP3 this season, a far cry from 50 games.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:44 am

ZenMaster4President wrote:
slimjim wrote:Kobe is far from the MVP this season, not even close. I predict he doesn't even make the top 3 in voting. and it has nothing to do with people under-appreciating Kobe or a bias, or hate. It is simple logic and following precedent.

Below are the winners each year and the number of wins they had.
2011/12 Lebron James 46 wins (66 game season. ~57 wins extrapolated over 82 game season)
2010/11 Derrick Rose 62 wins
2009/10 Lebron James 61 wins
2008/09 Lebron James 66 wins
2007/08 Kobe Bryant 57 wins
2006/07 Dirk Nowitzki 67 wins
2005/06 Steve Nash 54 wins
2004/05 Steve Nash 62 wins
2003/04 Kevin Garnett 58 wins
2002/03 Tim Duncan 60 wins
2001/02 Tim Duncan 58 wins
2000/01 Allen Iverson phi 56 wins
1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal 67 wins
1998/99 Karl Malone 61 wins
1997/98 Michael Jordan 62 wins
1996/97 Karl Malone 64 wins
1995/96 Michael Jordan 72 wins
1994/95 David Robinson 62 wins
1993/94 Hakeem Olajuwon 58 wins
1992/93 Charles Barkley 62 wins
1991/92 Michael Jordan 67 wins
1990/91 Michael Jordan 61 wins
1989/90 Magic Johnson 63 wins
1988/89 Magic Johnson 57 wins
1987/88 Michael Jordan 50 wins
1986/87 Magic Johnson 65 wins
1985/86 Larry Bird 67 wins
1984/85 Larry Bird 63 wins


Here's the definition of the MVP (What I think the criteria is, and what seems to be consist with the past 30+ years.)

1) Your team needs ~55+ wins
2) You are the leader of the team
3) Based on criteria 1 and 2. The list of candidates should be narrowed down to ~5-7 players
4) The debate for MVP should only be discussed among those 5-7 players. This is where you start to make the arguments about who's the most valuable. Qualitative arguments. (This is where the analysis of individual players comes into the mix)

It's that simple folks.


What you just described is not why Kobe isn't an MVP. It's why he won't get MVP even though by all reasonable accounts he should be a front runner along with CP3.

MVP is an individual award. It stands for Most Valuable Player. To his team. If the the team with a player won 40 games, but without him would struggle to win 10 - that guy is an MVP for his team. Each team has one.

The purpose of the voting should have been to determine who of those team MVPs is MVP-er. That is all.

The fact that Clippers win 55 games with CP3 and the Lakers might win 45 with Kobe should affect the comparison between PLAYERS.

The same Clippser squad may be able to get 50 wins with Bledsoe instead of CP3. The Lakers would be in the lottery without Kobe.


This guy, he gets "IT".
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Battle Tested20 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:53 am



2:40 mark

Kobe: It's coming, its coming to an end, and I'm happy that it will be with a Lakers Uniform

Jimmy: How soon do you think its coming to the end?

Kobe: It'll be soon..

Got goosebumps and an empty feeling in my stomach (the kind you get when your on a rollar coaster) hearing and watching Kobe say those things at the end there :man5:
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"I just put my faith in God. Through him we can do all things"
- Kobe Bryant, March 24, 2004
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:44 am

We better appreciate his final years because it's almost over :man6: It's gonna be a void that needs to be filled when Kobe retires.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby nameant on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:30 am

Every damn year we talk about this crap and every damn year we say the same crap. Stop it.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby laker911 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:39 am

Kobe on going to North Korea: "I'd probably pass." Kimmel: "For once you're passing."

:man10: :man10: :man10:
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