Kobe Thread: Bucher- Kobe = Father of Team USA Success p.819

Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby layman on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:02 am

wow, they used CM's highlights video of kobe's dunk on this show, impressive.
but i don't understand, this is ABC, they can get that dunk footage from TWC, can they?
and they used the one on youtube.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby XXIV on Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:07 am

laker911 wrote:Kobe on going to North Korea: "I'd probably pass." Kimmel: "For once you're passing."

:man10: :man10: :man10:


:man10:
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby therealdeal on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:06 am

nameant wrote:Every damn year we talk about this crap and every damn year we say the same crap. Stop it.

You're like the old man with the hose in the Jack in the Box commercials.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby TIME on Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:51 am

Kobe is obviously the MVP.

Most Vino Player.
I'm lost in the fog of denial!
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby LakerFanIam on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:02 am

TIME wrote:Kobe is obviously the MVP.

Most Vino Player.


http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Finwë on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:23 am

checkers09 wrote:Doc Rivers on Kobe...

But while he doesn’t like judging current players against retired icons, Rivers did add that he thinks Kobe Bryant’s greatness sometimes gets overlooked.

“I think because he followed Michael, he probably doesn’t get the due he deserves,” said Rivers. “What he’s doing right now, at his age, I watched last night because I watch most of New Orleans’ games for personal reasons, he’s playing at a different level himself.”


http://jimrome.com/2013/03/07/doc-talks ... Y8.twitter

I agree Doc
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Finwë on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:26 am

KareemTheGreat33 wrote:The day they took away the right of NBA players to vote for MVP was the day it lost all credibility

Yeah, I would definitely rather have the players (maybe coaches too) voting.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Finwë on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:29 am

SpencerHarrison wrote:
slimjim wrote:Here's the definition of the MVP (What I think the criteria is, and what seems to be consist with the past 30+ years.)

1) Your team needs ~55+ wins
2) You are the leader of the team
3) Based on criteria 1 and 2. The list of candidates should be narrowed down to ~5-7 players
4) The debate for MVP should only be discussed among those 5-7 players. This is where you start to make the arguments about who's the most valuable. Qualitative arguments. (This is where the analysis of individual players comes into the mix)

It's that simple folks.


I can live with that

Yeah me too, if we needed a regular criteria without looking at particular exceptions (Kobe could be one of those this year, I'd definitely have him in the top 3), this isn't bad.

EDIT: With this system, the MVP would not necessarily be the actual best player in the league, or the one with the most ability as a player. It would be most of the time, all things considered, but there could be some exceptions. (Think Kobe in 2005/2006)
Last edited by Finwë on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby therealdeal on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:33 am

LakerFanIam wrote:
TIME wrote:Kobe is obviously the MVP.

Most Vino Player.


http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html

They have him at 2nd???

Wow. He won't come close to that unless we somehow make a run to 6th, but hey that's nice of them to notice.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Finwë on Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:40 am

therealdeal wrote:
LakerFanIam wrote:
TIME wrote:Kobe is obviously the MVP.

Most Vino Player.


http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html

They have him at 2nd???

Wow. He won't come close to that unless we somehow make a run to 6th, but hey that's nice of them to notice.

Wow, that's quite surprising.
Good to see they are noticing how amazing the guy has been this year all things considered.

EDIT: I bet NBA.com's choice to put him 2nd will spice up the whole back-and-forth we've had in the last few pages. The fact that they (NBA.com's MVP ladder has always functioned with the whole 'best player in best team with great stats' idea of an MVP)actually said something like: "Bryant has vowed to lead these Lakers to the playoffs and promised that they'll make some noise when they get there. If it happens, given what we've seen of these Lakers from the start of training camp, few players could make a stronger case for MVP honors." should speak volumes.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Chillbongo on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:08 pm

NBA.com is trying to act "independent" from ESPN or what?

Shocker....They also have Ty Lawson and Paul George ahead of James Harden. Where is the logic in that? Because those two are on better teams? Well then how the hell is Kobe 2nd? :man3:
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Finwë on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:14 pm

Chillbongo wrote:NBA.com is trying to act "independent" from ESPN or what?

Shocker....They also have Ty Lawson and Paul George ahead of James Harden. Where is the logic in that? Because those two are on better teams? Well then how the hell is Kobe 2nd? :man3:

I think one of the differences between their MVP race and other sites' is, while they still go with the same criteria, they base their rankings also putting stock on 'recent play' (thus the players' averages for the last week they show under each name and all that).
They have their idea of who should be considered an MVP candidate, but they also tend to mix guys in and out based off how they've been performing in, say, the last 6-7 games or so (considering their team success during that stretch as well, of course)
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Finwë on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:21 pm

XXIV wrote:
laker911 wrote:Kobe on going to North Korea: "I'd probably pass." Kimmel: "For once you're passing."

:man10: :man10: :man10:


:man10:

LOL.

The shoes Kobe was wearing in that interview though, /facepalm :man10:
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Cleansed on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:23 pm

LakerFanIam wrote:
TIME wrote:Kobe is obviously the MVP.

Most Vino Player.


http://www.nba.com/mvp-ladder/2012-13/index.html


...oh my.

It seems common sense still exist.

If the Lakers make the playoffs I don't know how Kobe couldn't be looked upon as the best MVP candidate.

I really wish that MVP criteria was written in stone.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Chillbongo on Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:31 pm

Finwë wrote:I think one of the differences between their MVP race and other sites' is, while they still go with the same criteria, they base their rankings also putting stock on 'recent play'

Didn't know that, guess it's nice for a change. But how is that indicative of the Most Valuable Player for the whole season? Yadddimean?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Forward Three on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:17 pm

With regards to Kobe only having one MVP, as dumb as it seems it is just sort of bad timing, similar with Shaq. The MVP award criteria has never been softer and it's been that way for most of the last decade, team record + player narrative = MVP.

Kobe was the consensus player of the decade '00-'10 and I think if there was an official award for that he'd have it. It's silly that 8th seed or even non-playoffs teams' best players will basically never win the MVP or even be considered seriously when often the lower ranking teams that have one superstar player making it happen make that player that much more deserving. For as dominant as he has been, Lebron has the luxury of whenever he has a 'bad night' Wade steps in and has a phenomenal night. It's weird to consider Lebron an MVP in a situation like that where part of his great efficiency is directly linked to the fact that he has a player not far from his caliber backing him up every night.

Put another way, people talk about how Lebron never forces anything shooting wise and it's like... yeah, when you're playing with two very prolific and reliable scorers you don't have to force anything shooting wise, that's the whole point.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby therealdeal on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:19 pm

Cleansed wrote:
I really wish that MVP criteria was written in stone.

They can't because then they can't give it to whoever they want. In the end they want to control that kind of thing and if there's a set criteria, then they lose control.

I don't see Kobe getting ANY MVP votes unless a majority of the following things occur:

1. We go 23-5 to finish the season and end up with a 48-32 record.
2. Kobe continues his insane shooting percentage AND totals.
3. We jump to a clear #6 in the standings.
4. We win every game against the Clippers, the Spurs, the Grizzlies, the Pacers, and any other good teams we have left to play.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Forward Three on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:22 pm

Another thing about MVP criteria and how impermanent it is. Steve Nash won two MVPs largely because for those seasons there was a love affair with assists. The Suns had a great record and all, but the player narrative of Nash being an assists guy, that was the X-factor. Lately, it seems like the love affair has been with FG%, not even TS%, just FG% as a metric for 'efficiency'.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:23 pm

JGC wrote:But, you're one of the people that calls him a hater. LOL. So you've just stated why you call him a hater?

Yes. He made a point of saying people unjustly call him a hater so I chose to help him understand. That is all. I know you want to scream "unfair" but he asked and I helped. Nice guy I am.

Anyway, doesn't really matter what MY definition is. What matters is what is THE definition. And THE definition is the best player on the best team. In other words, the candidates for the award have to have ELITE statistics and exceptional team records. I think you can probably get away with not having an exceptional team record, but, then you have to have stats no one else can touch.

So your definition doesn't matter but you are voicing your opinion. I say this based on the fact I have never seen the criteria you have stated as the rules for picking an MVP. Where did you get it from?

That's why I had Kobe picked for MVP in 2006 even though Nash was well-deserving as well. 35.4 PPG? Ridiculous. No one has touched that mark since Jordan. Team record was only a 7 seed I think that year, but he stood out, ALONE, in the stats department so in my view that is an exception.

So Kobe was the MVP in 06 even though his team finished in the bottom of the conference because his "stats" deamed it so, in your opinion. So in that year what Kobe has done was significant enough but what he is doing now (best in his career mind you) is not. That is confusing. Guess it is based on your opinion afterall.

I don't factor in if a player had a boo boo, if his teammate had a boo boo, if his teammates were great, or if his teammates suck. Doesn't make much sense to do that anyway. People want to discount LBJ because he has great teammates, and when he had garbage teammates, people want to discount LBJ because he had garbage teammates and so he got the ball all the time. The argument can swing both ways. It shouldn't count against Kobe that he has Dwight. Produce. Put up numbers and will your teams to wins in the face adversity. MVP winners don't get a pity party for tough times. Come on. The league has gotten soft but we don't have to.

SO again, you are basing it on your opinon not the actual criteria (that I am still waiting for). Who discredited LBJ when he was with Clev? If you go back and look, which is hard in all your over the top defense, you will see most talked about the lack of competetion in the East. Winning 60 games in the East was not the same as winning 60 in the West especially when the #10 seed in the west would of been the #4 seed in the East. Competetion doesn't matter to you I guess. How does it swing both ways when it didn't swing at all. As for the "pity party" that once again proves your bias and ignorance to why the MVP is the MVP. It isn't an award for best player in the game. If that was the case Lebron (arguably the best in game today) would win. Of course Kobe would have 10 since he has been the best player in the game for the last decade. However, that isn't the case because the way teams play is also a factor. You don't have to get soft just stop with the double standard circle jerking.

The MVP goes to the player who produces the most individually and via his team period. The most valuable players can overcome adversity to produce (i.e. Nash in 2006 and why he was a valid candidate IMO). An MVP candidate needs no caveats.

Where did you come up with this? Is it your opinion or are you stating facts? Problem though you said an MVP player can overcome "ADVERSITY" to produce. Nash overcame AMare's injury to produce. Yet, you descredit Kobe overcomeing the injuries to our Center, back up center, backup-backup center, poing gaurd, back up point gaurd and himself to will his team to (potentially) make the playoffs. You are talking in circles again.

The more you try to sell and explain it, the more apparent it is that said player is probably not a top candidate. My gut says this year, Kobe isn't the MVP because other players have better numbers AND records, and when I see the lengthy explanations and novels from those trying to squeeze every bit of reason in to why we can force him in to that discussion, it tells me my gut is right.

Really? Again, your opinion doesn't matter (your words) yet you are again using it as fact. Weird. Your gut? Why should I trust your gut? Is it an amazing gut? Did it pick the NHL Champs last season? Again, your OPINION is what you are stating not facts. Being that it is your opinion does not make it any more right than someone who says Adam Morrison is the MVP. As far as the "lengthy explanations" what is the criteria in JGC's world that is allowable for an appropriate response? 25-75 words? Less? More? I mean if those who disagree with you have to live up to some magical expectation that only you and your gut understands then how can we understand it? Eh, I know that was lengthy so it must make your gut know you were right.

You cleared it all up. I change my mind. Kobe is no longer an MVP Candidate for doing above and beyond to bring his team to the playoffs inspite of all the "excuses" he should have.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:32 pm

Finwë wrote:
SpencerHarrison wrote:
slimjim wrote:Here's the definition of the MVP (What I think the criteria is, and what seems to be consist with the past 30+ years.)

1) Your team needs ~55+ wins
2) You are the leader of the team
3) Based on criteria 1 and 2. The list of candidates should be narrowed down to ~5-7 players
4) The debate for MVP should only be discussed among those 5-7 players. This is where you start to make the arguments about who's the most valuable. Qualitative arguments. (This is where the analysis of individual players comes into the mix)

It's that simple folks.


I can live with that

Yeah me too, if we needed a regular criteria without looking at particular exceptions (Kobe could be one of those this year, I'd definitely have him in the top 3), this isn't bad.

EDIT: With this system, the MVP would not necessarily be the actual best player in the league, or the one with the most ability as a player. It would be most of the time, all things considered, but there could be some exceptions. (Think Kobe in 2005/2006)


If this was the criteria then it would be easy. However the problem is the media changes the criteria before the season starts. Hasn't Lebron won the MVP before the season the last two seasons already? So no player could come in play out of their mind bringing a team above and beyond what they were expected. James Harden has been a bonified everything star for Houston but won't get a sniff. Tony Parker is laughed at as an MVP candidate yet last season he put up his best numbers while leading the Spurs to top in the West yet he got a "oh that guy did well too." I'd be happy if there was just a list of what the MVP really is rather than all the "speculation" and "interpretation" of what it should be.

Is that too much to ask?
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby lakerfan2 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:11 pm

Hypothetical: what if you found out Kobe was using PED's?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby JGC on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:15 pm

Chillbongo wrote:
Finwë wrote:I think one of the differences between their MVP race and other sites' is, while they still go with the same criteria, they base their rankings also putting stock on 'recent play'

Didn't know that, guess it's nice for a change. But how is that indicative of the Most Valuable Player for the whole season? Yadddimean?


Yeah but it wouldn't be nice if Kobe had been balling all season, had us in the #1 seed, hit a bump in the road recently, and they bumped him down.

Then people (in here) would complain about including recent play in to the mix, rather than call it nice.

I think it's pretty clear that update was made for hits. I mean, it doesn't make sense and then they put it on their homepage? Yeah, clicks, hits, whatever.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby therealdeal on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:21 pm

lakerfan2 wrote:Hypothetical: what if you found out Kobe was using PED's?

I'd be disappointed, but I'd get over it pretty quickly. Especially if I found out that everyone else was using.

When Armstrong was found out, I thought "Eh. So he's the best cheater among cheaters. Whatever." (although his crusades in court were deplorable)

If Kobe were found out I'd say "aw man. well that sucks... but he's got 5 rings in an era where everyone juiced. He's just the best cheater among cheaters."

And let me clarify: I doubt that this is something NEW to the sport. I'd guess steroids and whatnot have been present in the league for a long time.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Chillbongo on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:22 pm

Well Kobe has been balling all season. But no, I do think it's stupid, hence
Chillbongo wrote:But how is that indicative of the Most Valuable Player for the whole season?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: 42 / 12 / 7 / 67% / Win = !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Postby Chillbongo on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:23 pm

therealdeal wrote:And let me clarify: I doubt that this is something NEW to the sport. I'd guess steroids and whatnot have been present in the league for a long time.


And I know people would slam me for this but,

You think Jordan wasn't on that s***?

::shudders for impending Kobe vs Michael debate::
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