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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:20 pm

Chillbongo wrote:
JGC wrote:And honestly, which center should be getting more touches than Dwight freaking Howard?

^ Pre-2011 Gasol. Lamarcus Aldridge. Chris Bosh. I can list more. (We're talking about offense)

Dwight's offense is like seeing all the stars in the LA night sky. Might be there, but you definitely ain't seeing it.


Well, we're going back in history now? I mean, of course KAJ, Wilt and Shaq should get more too. But there is no pre-2011 Gasol. Aldridge doesn't play center for Portland so he doesn't count.

Chris Bosh does play center, but I'm not sure he should be receiving more touches than Dwight Howard considering Bosh is a jump shooter (2/3 of his shot attempts are jump shots).
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby karacha on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:22 pm

Please let's take Dwight stats to Dwight thread, and leave this for Kobe discussion now. I am one of the guys guilty of derailing this thread. Feel free to copy and paste your Dwight discussion here, because there's some good stuff there.

http://www.clublakers.com/lakers-discussion/dwight-howard-discussion-apologizes-starts-with-804-t131756-20400.html
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:24 pm

karacha wrote:We should take this to the Dwight thread now, but let me just post this -- since some posters are not happy with Dwight's offense:

among centers, Dwight, who is recovering from back surgery, is #5 in PPG. He scores a whopping 1.9 pts less then #1 Lopez. But he is shooting slightly higher % then other top 4 centers. He out-rebounds #1 by 4.5 (!!) RPG, and gets .4 blocks more, while playing better individual defense. What an offensive disaster, right?

If Dwight had some young, quick players, and shooters to spread to floor -- he would own. All that while still recovering, mind you.


I agree, and I'm not trying to hate Dwight.

The "He's not getting touches" excuse is bankrupt though. Unfortunately it's more complicated than that and requires a more complicated answer like the one you provided above.

Not sure if I'm really excited about becoming Orlando Magic 2.0 . :man10:

Nice debating with you and borri. Maybe I'll catch you guys on the Dwight thread later to continue.

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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:59 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:I want to state for the record that the current conversation between Real and JGC has this poster tickled. :bow: I applaud Real for attempting to find understanding a reason with JGC's notion that Kobe needs to pass the torch. Seeing as the Lakers fans biggest complaints have been Dwight not being able to handle the load, Pau not being agressive enough or playing defense, Steve not being agressive and turning the ball over and MWP being MWP I cannot seem to see a player to "pass the torch" too. I guess Jordan Hill was a good choice I mean he got all sorts of praise from Lakers fans until he got hurt. Ahh that leaves the one an only Earl "the new pearl" Clark. I read somewhere he was a lottery pick so that must mean he is a center piece on a team, right? In any case, I am enjoying the debate.... Round 15? :bow:

I'll handle it tomorrow :man1:

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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:14 am

JGC wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:I want to state for the record that the current conversation between Real and JGC has this poster tickled. :bow: I applaud Real for attempting to find understanding a reason with JGC's notion that Kobe needs to pass the torch. Seeing as the Lakers fans biggest complaints have been Dwight not being able to handle the load, Pau not being agressive enough or playing defense, Steve not being agressive and turning the ball over and MWP being MWP I cannot seem to see a player to "pass the torch" too. I guess Jordan Hill was a good choice I mean he got all sorts of praise from Lakers fans until he got hurt. Ahh that leaves the one an only Earl "the new pearl" Clark. I read somewhere he was a lottery pick so that must mean he is a center piece on a team, right? In any case, I am enjoying the debate.... Round 15? :bow:


I didn't say pass the torch. I implied share the torch. Maybe have Dwight light it. I don't know. I'm saying start that process. Tony Parker didn't become the main guy for the Spurs over night. It was a process. And a process that took time. The original plan was for Kobe to hold the torch and hold it alone until he didn't want to. But maybe we should consider revising that a bit and taking more of a phased approach with this the way the Spurs did.

When Dwight was acquired, he was told he was brought here to eventually be the FACE of this franchise. I don't think the team, coaches or Kobe for that matter, have been treating him the way you'd expect to treat the future face of your franchise for the next 10 years.

The reason I'm suggesting it, is because Kobe is at a point in his career where he cannot play effectively for full starters minutes. He's trying. But I just think it's wrong to essentially tell the future face of your franchise that you're still a distant #3 behind a guy who can't play at his optimal level for starters minutes and another guy who is nearly literally over the hill. And especially so when you've been gushing about how he is the future when he got here.

So what I would like to see, is for Kobe to take on the role of Derek Fisher a little more. A guy who brings people together. An emotional leader. A unifier. And let someone else step in to that on-court leader a little more and see what they can do. Your on-court leader can't be taking plays off on the defensive end. That isn't going to work. It sets a bad example and it is frustrating to the other players. So START to pass the torch just a little bit and then more over time to someone who physically CAN do it on the court. See what happens. It might not work but all we're doing now is wearing Kobe out just to lose.


Here's the thing:

1. You have a valid point in that Kobe being able to pass the torch slowly would be great....... But....
A. The Spurs had Parker, Duncan and Manu who ALL wanted to be the man but didn't "talk" about it but proved they wanted it.
B. In order for Kobe to pass the torch he has to have someone to pass it too that is ready to take the reigns. Do you honestly think Dwight is showing the mental toughness to take over a team like the Lakers>

2. Real has been saying the simple notion that while your idea is valid we can't just do it for the sake of doing it.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby JGC on Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:45 am

I'm not suggesting we do it for the sake of it. I'm saying let's do it because we traded for him for the long term, he is proven as a superstar and maybe being put in a position of leadership will help his mental state. He isnt someone who needs to prove it especially not after mitch had him in his office and pointed out how he wants his jersey up there in 10 yrs with all the other greats. I'm sure he didnt say that to jordan hill.

So dont do it for the sake of it, but why wouldnt or shouldnt we consider it at this point?
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby Lakeshow24 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:24 am

JGC wrote:I'm not suggesting we do it for the sake of it. I'm saying let's do it because we traded for him for the long term, he is proven as a superstar and maybe being put in a position of leadership will help his mental state. He isnt someone who needs to prove it especially not after mitch had him in his office and pointed out how he wants his jersey up there in 10 yrs with all the other greats. I'm sure he didnt say that to jordan hill.

So dont do it for the sake of it, but why wouldnt or shouldnt we consider it at this point?


Dwight Howard has gotta ball out on his own. It's not about what Kobe is doing or isn't doing. It's about Dwight getting out there and taking over the game. The fact is he's lost in Antoni's offense and it's depressing his play overall. That, and the fact that he's obviously still not 100% since his back injury.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby JGC on Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:04 am

^ So you think a player has to out play Kobe before we can pass the torch so to speak?
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby Lakeshow24 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:11 am

JGC wrote:^ So you think a player has to out play Kobe before we can pass the torch so to speak?


Right now, Kobe is still balling. Right now, Kobe is a 5 time champion. Right now, everybody should be following Kobe and not the other way around. This system should not revolve around Antoni and Nash running around jacking up shots and keeping the bigs uninvolved.

Instead of blaming Kobe for Pau and Dwight's lack of involvement, maybe you should be pointing your finger at the coach?
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby The Rock on Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:19 am

Right now Dwight is not playing like An All star marquis Center. Having said that his biggest value by far is his defense in that respect thats where hes a cornerstone. He is having difficulties on offense and its getting compounded by the fact that he hasn't found a solution to getting stripped + not getting the calls since he's a Laker. We gotta ride this out. Age is on his side but he better get it together mentally and physically. We knew some baggage would come but for someone who says whos pursuing a championships hes not willing to make the necessary adjustments.

Hes the most productive P & R player in 2012 so it made sense we put him in those situations instead of straight up iso but I've said this before, P & R works when you got shooters to spread the floor to keep the defense honest (or very every damn halfcourt play), why do you think Kobe and Gasol dont do the P & R over the last couple of years even when Gasol was playing much than he is right now & under Phil? Teams are just willing to rotate the defense to cut Gasol off and give up the corner 3 (usually to MWP) and live with it.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby JGC on Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:15 am

Lakeshow24 wrote:
JGC wrote:^ So you think a player has to out play Kobe before we can pass the torch so to speak?


Right now, Kobe is still balling. Right now, Kobe is a 5 time champion. Right now, everybody should be following Kobe and not the other way around. This system should not revolve around Antoni and Nash running around jacking up shots and keeping the bigs uninvolved.

Instead of blaming Kobe for Pau and Dwight's lack of involvement, maybe you should be pointing your finger at the coach?


How is Kobe still balling? He's been playing ZERO defense this season. He's been scoring, but if balling = scoring and nothing else, I guess I'd agree but I don't think he's had a great overall season at all. A better season would be scoring 23 PPG, dishing, and playing the All-NBA defense we've been accustomed to seeing, wouldn't it? And he'd be MORE than capable of that, wouldn't he?

Right now, Kobe is a 5 time champion. Kobe will be a 5 time champion when he's 70. Derek Fisher is a 5 time champion. So what?

Your comment about following Kobe around is, IMO, one of the problems we have on this team. That's EXACTLY how a lot of these other guys have been treated (namely, D12 but Nash too). You trade for Dwight, and then you tell him how he's the future, how you want his jersey up there with all of those other hall of famers, and that essentially the keys to the city so to speak are making their way in to your hands.

But right now you need to make like Robert Sacre and follow Kobe around.

WTH, no wonder Dwight is unhappy. If I got recruited in to a company as a Vice President and was told the plan is to eventually groom me in to the CEO/President role, but then I was asked to fetch coffee for one of the other VPs and just follow him around and do what he says, I don't know that I'd be very happy.

I'm not blaming Kobe. I'm saying maybe as a team, we need to start thinking about how we're going to walk that talk we gave to Dwight about having his jersey retired as a Laker, etc. And maybe what needs to happen is that the process of transition starts now. Doesn't mean the transition has to be completed now, just get the ball rolling, let Dwight know he is a definite part of this organization's future plans.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby Lakeshow24 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:21 am

JGC wrote:
Lakeshow24 wrote:
JGC wrote:^ So you think a player has to out play Kobe before we can pass the torch so to speak?


Right now, Kobe is still balling. Right now, Kobe is a 5 time champion. Right now, everybody should be following Kobe and not the other way around. This system should not revolve around Antoni and Nash running around jacking up shots and keeping the bigs uninvolved.

Instead of blaming Kobe for Pau and Dwight's lack of involvement, maybe you should be pointing your finger at the coach?


How is Kobe still balling? He's been playing ZERO defense this season. He's been scoring, but if balling = scoring and nothing else, I guess I'd agree but I don't think he's had a great overall season at all. A better season would be scoring 23 PPG, dishing, and playing the All-NBA defense we've been accustomed to seeing, wouldn't it? And he'd be MORE than capable of that, wouldn't he?

Right now, Kobe is a 5 time champion. Kobe will be a 5 time champion when he's 70. Derek Fisher is a 5 time champion. So what?

Your comment about following Kobe around is, IMO, one of the problems we have on this team. That's EXACTLY how a lot of these other guys have been treated (namely, D12 but Nash too). You trade for Dwight, and then you tell him how he's the future, how you want his jersey up there with all of those other hall of famers, and that essentially the keys to the city so to speak are making their way in to your hands.

But right now you need to make like Robert Sacre and follow Kobe around.

WTH, no wonder Dwight is unhappy. If I got recruited in to a company as a Vice President and was told the plan is to eventually groom me in to the CEO/President role, but then I was asked to fetch coffee for one of the other VPs and just follow him around and do what he says, I don't know that I'd be very happy.

I'm not blaming Kobe. I'm saying maybe as a team, we need to start thinking about how we're going to walk that talk we gave to Dwight about having his jersey retired as a Laker, etc instead of just treating him like some FA signing like Meeks.


If you're saying Kobe is playing "ZERO" defense then you are blaming Kobe, and you are completely exaggerating. Yes, Kobe has been playing safety and burned at times. But you can't just go out and make up stuff up.

There's more to the Lakers' problems than Kobe averaging 30 ppg on decent shooting. There's problems with an offensive system that doesn't incorporate the abilities of Pau and Dwight. And a system that moves too fast for its star players (Dwight, Nash, Gasol, Kobe) to play well on offense while also getting back on defense.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby Lakeshow24 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:24 am

JGC wrote:^ So you think a player has to out play Kobe before we can pass the torch so to speak?


Pass the torch to Dwight to do what? Get the ball in the post and throw up an awful looking Kevin Willis like shot, get called for traveling, lose the ball to a defender ala Kwame Brown, or draw a foul and brick both free throws all game? That's not going to win us a ring!

If it was Orlando would have won multiple rings considering Dwight was much better in ORL than he is over here. Dwight is a shell of his former self athletically at least until his back and other ailments heal.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby JGC on Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:28 am

Lakeshow24 wrote:
JGC wrote:
Lakeshow24 wrote:
JGC wrote:^ So you think a player has to out play Kobe before we can pass the torch so to speak?


Right now, Kobe is still balling. Right now, Kobe is a 5 time champion. Right now, everybody should be following Kobe and not the other way around. This system should not revolve around Antoni and Nash running around jacking up shots and keeping the bigs uninvolved.

Instead of blaming Kobe for Pau and Dwight's lack of involvement, maybe you should be pointing your finger at the coach?


How is Kobe still balling? He's been playing ZERO defense this season. He's been scoring, but if balling = scoring and nothing else, I guess I'd agree but I don't think he's had a great overall season at all. A better season would be scoring 23 PPG, dishing, and playing the All-NBA defense we've been accustomed to seeing, wouldn't it? And he'd be MORE than capable of that, wouldn't he?

Right now, Kobe is a 5 time champion. Kobe will be a 5 time champion when he's 70. Derek Fisher is a 5 time champion. So what?

Your comment about following Kobe around is, IMO, one of the problems we have on this team. That's EXACTLY how a lot of these other guys have been treated (namely, D12 but Nash too). You trade for Dwight, and then you tell him how he's the future, how you want his jersey up there with all of those other hall of famers, and that essentially the keys to the city so to speak are making their way in to your hands.

But right now you need to make like Robert Sacre and follow Kobe around.

WTH, no wonder Dwight is unhappy. If I got recruited in to a company as a Vice President and was told the plan is to eventually groom me in to the CEO/President role, but then I was asked to fetch coffee for one of the other VPs and just follow him around and do what he says, I don't know that I'd be very happy.

I'm not blaming Kobe. I'm saying maybe as a team, we need to start thinking about how we're going to walk that talk we gave to Dwight about having his jersey retired as a Laker, etc instead of just treating him like some FA signing like Meeks.


If you're saying Kobe is playing "ZERO" defense then you are blaming Kobe, and you are completely exaggerating. Yes, Kobe has been playing safety and burned at times. But you can't just go out and make up stuff up.

There's more to the Lakers' problems than Kobe averaging 30 ppg on decent shooting. There's problems with an offensive system that doesn't incorporate the abilities of Pau and Dwight. And a system that moves too fast for its star players (Dwight, Nash, Gasol, Kobe) to play well on offense while also getting back on defense.


Is it your opinion then that Kobe is giving his FULL effort on the defensive end, and what we've been seeing from him this year is at or near the best we can expect from him defensively?
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:07 am

JGC wrote:I'm not suggesting we do it for the sake of it. I'm saying let's do it because we traded for him for the long term, he is proven as a superstar and maybe being put in a position of leadership will help his mental state. He isnt someone who needs to prove it especially not after mitch had him in his office and pointed out how he wants his jersey up there in 10 yrs with all the other greats. I'm sure he didnt say that to jordan hill.

So dont do it for the sake of it, but why wouldnt or shouldnt we consider it at this point?


I pointed to Denzel Washington and told my son I wanted him to be a star like him. It doesn't matter what I say I want it is about what he is capable of doing with the work. No matter how much you want to put Dwight in a Leadership roll he has to "earn" that right. Just because you have talent doesn't mean you are suppose to lead. I don't understand how you cannot see or completely ignore your bias to Kobe to the detriment of any logical argument. Dwight is not healthy yet and has not shown he is capable of leading this team. Your entire argument is based on a "well Dwight is suppose to be the future so let him drive the car" which is plain wrong. I get that Kobe can't do anything right to you but seriously what is the point of this argument?
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby phoenixrisingla on Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:22 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:I'm not suggesting we do it for the sake of it. I'm saying let's do it because we traded for him for the long term, he is proven as a superstar and maybe being put in a position of leadership will help his mental state. He isnt someone who needs to prove it especially not after mitch had him in his office and pointed out how he wants his jersey up there in 10 yrs with all the other greats. I'm sure he didnt say that to jordan hill.

So dont do it for the sake of it, but why wouldnt or shouldnt we consider it at this point?


I pointed to Denzel Washington and told my son I wanted him to be a star like him. It doesn't matter what I say I want it is about what he is capable of doing with the work. No matter how much you want to put Dwight in a Leadership roll he has to "earn" that right. Just because you have talent doesn't mean you are suppose to lead. I don't understand how you cannot see or completely ignore your bias to Kobe to the detriment of any logical argument. Dwight is not healthy yet and has not shown he is capable of leading this team. Your entire argument is based on a "well Dwight is suppose to be the future so let him drive the car" which is plain wrong. I get that Kobe can't do anything right to you but seriously what is the point of this argument?


Agree. I really thought that after this season's performance people would be worried about handing the team over to Dwight, but I guess not.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby JGC on Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:31 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:I'm not suggesting we do it for the sake of it. I'm saying let's do it because we traded for him for the long term, he is proven as a superstar and maybe being put in a position of leadership will help his mental state. He isnt someone who needs to prove it especially not after mitch had him in his office and pointed out how he wants his jersey up there in 10 yrs with all the other greats. I'm sure he didnt say that to jordan hill.

So dont do it for the sake of it, but why wouldnt or shouldnt we consider it at this point?


I pointed to Denzel Washington and told my son I wanted him to be a star like him. It doesn't matter what I say I want it is about what he is capable of doing with the work. No matter how much you want to put Dwight in a Leadership roll he has to "earn" that right. Just because you have talent doesn't mean you are suppose to lead. I don't understand how you cannot see or completely ignore your bias to Kobe to the detriment of any logical argument. Dwight is not healthy yet and has not shown he is capable of leading this team. Your entire argument is based on a "well Dwight is suppose to be the future so let him drive the car" which is plain wrong. I get that Kobe can't do anything right to you but seriously what is the point of this argument?


Well, I think we've uncovered the discrepancy in terms of where we stand on this issue. (And I'm not talking about the horrible analogy that doesn't fit or your need to come to Kobe's defense even when I'm not talking about Kobe, haha).

The reason your analogy stinks, is because we have already said to Dwight that he's a star and that he's our future. We WANTED Bynum to be our future and Bynum certainly needed to earn it. When we traded for Dwight, we told him he'd be getting the keys to this franchise, we told him that we'd put him in a position to retire his jersey along the wall of all the other franchise greats. That's saying he's already earned it.

If you bring me in to your company and you walk me around the office and tell me you're giving me the corner office with a view and then on my first day I end up in a storage closet, I'm not going to be very happy. And it won't matter one lick if, when I complain about it, you say "I pointed to Denzel Washington and told my son I wanted him to be a star just like him. You gotta earn it."

This has nothing to do with Kobe, and everything to do with Dwight. The only reason it even impacts Kobe is because I'm just talking about walking the talk and loosening, just a bit, the death grip that Kobe has to allow for the existence of a 1a/1b type set up like we promised. What we told Dwight when he got here isn't translating on to the court at all. From how the players play on the court, to how Kobe leads on the court, to the coaching hiring, etc, etc.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby phoenixrisingla on Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:40 am

JGC wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:I'm not suggesting we do it for the sake of it. I'm saying let's do it because we traded for him for the long term, he is proven as a superstar and maybe being put in a position of leadership will help his mental state. He isnt someone who needs to prove it especially not after mitch had him in his office and pointed out how he wants his jersey up there in 10 yrs with all the other greats. I'm sure he didnt say that to jordan hill.

So dont do it for the sake of it, but why wouldnt or shouldnt we consider it at this point?


I pointed to Denzel Washington and told my son I wanted him to be a star like him. It doesn't matter what I say I want it is about what he is capable of doing with the work. No matter how much you want to put Dwight in a Leadership roll he has to "earn" that right. Just because you have talent doesn't mean you are suppose to lead. I don't understand how you cannot see or completely ignore your bias to Kobe to the detriment of any logical argument. Dwight is not healthy yet and has not shown he is capable of leading this team. Your entire argument is based on a "well Dwight is suppose to be the future so let him drive the car" which is plain wrong. I get that Kobe can't do anything right to you but seriously what is the point of this argument?


Well, I think we've uncovered the discrepancy in terms of where we stand on this issue. (And I'm not talking about the horrible analogy that doesn't fit or your need to come to Kobe's defense even when I'm not talking about Kobe, haha).

The reason your analogy stinks, is because we have already said to Dwight that he's a star and that he's our future. We WANTED Bynum to be our future and Bynum certainly needed to earn it. When we traded for Dwight, we told him he'd be getting the keys to this franchise, we told him that we'd put him in a position to retire his jersey along the wall of all the other franchise greats. That's saying he's already earned it.

If you bring me in to your company and you walk me around the office and tell me you're giving me the corner office with a view and then on my first day I end up in a storage closet, I'm not going to be very happy. And it won't matter one lick if, when I complain about it, you say "I pointed to Denzel Washington and told my son I wanted him to be a star just like him. You gotta earn it."

This has nothing to do with Kobe, and everything to do with Dwight. The only reason it even impacts Kobe is because I'm just talking about walking the talk and loosening, just a bit, the death grip that Kobe has to allow for the existence of a 1a/1b type set up like we promised. What we told Dwight when he got here isn't translating on to the court at all. From how the players play on the court, to how Kobe leads on the court, to the coaching hiring, etc, etc.


Dwight is more like the star sales guy brought in from another company and promised an excellent comp package and future with the firm based on past results.

Once on the job, he bristles with your top sales guy who has been killing it for years (and still is), talks trash about people around the water cooler, and blames his lack of new clients on the fact he's not getting enough "leads" (touches) even though he's getting plenty and just bombing the sales calls.

Just wanted to get in on the analogy fun. :jam2:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby therealdeal on Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:47 am

I'm rusty on smashing posters and their arguments. This could take a little longer than usual.

JGC wrote:Where in the season did Earl show he would be capable of contributing in any manner whatsoever until he was given the opportunity? The reality is that I don't know if Dwight can and neither do you. And I never even said he would seize the opportunity. I'm saying we haven't given him the chance, the same way we never gave Earl a chance but look what happened when we did.

He didn't. There had to be a massive injury attack on the team in order for him to just get a chance to play significant minutes. The situation is ABSOLUTELY different than Howard's who is touching the ball every single night and has been a centerpiece of our offensive attack all season long. We haven't given him the chance to do what? We give him the ball a TON every single game. If he had been capable of dominating on a consistent basis, he would be doing it already. Is he capable of doing more? Maybe. But when has he proven to the team CONSISTENTLY that he's the man to pick up the reins for the team? Where has he proven that he can be effective?

Giving a kid a chance because of injuries is one thing, but Kobe Bryant accounts for a massive amount of our offense. In games we win, we win mostly because of him. In games we lose, we lose mostly because of him. Do you really, truly think Howard is capable of being that man this season?
JGC wrote:Noted on the record! Haha. And you're right about Earl. When he was given the opportunity, he seized it even though he didn't ever appear capable of doing so. Has Dwight shown the capability to seize the opportunity? Not yet, but he has not been given that opportunity yet.

Again, second most touches for a big man. What would you say constitutes opportunities? In the last 4 games he's been disengaged, turnover prone, foul prone, frustration prone, out worked, and muscled out under the basket.

Until he can give us the consistent effort that he gave against Milwaukee and Cleveland, why should he be given more responsibilities? Why should we trust him with anything?

JGC wrote:He's been treated like a role player even though he was told he was much more important than that.
Explain yourself. This is pure garbage and speculation. Role player? What role player is given the 3rd most shot attempts on the team when paired with 4 hall of fame players? In fact if you factor in his free throws, he gets the 2nd most attempts on the team. Role player indeed.

JGC wrote:He's supposed to be our future, but we're not treating him like it at all. The original idea was that when Kobe is done, he/we would hand the keys to Dwight, but I'm suggesting we take a phased approach to this.
I understand what you're saying and I'm saying he doesn't deserve it. Until he's willing, and more importantly able, to TAKE the reins and PROVE he's the man for the job, why in the hell should Kobe GIVE him anything?
JGC wrote:I apologize if it was insulting.

Noted.
JGC wrote:But, my point is that you were wrong about Earl, as many of us were too, so maybe we're wrong about Dwight.
Wrong about what? I'm not suggesting that eventually Dwight won't be capable of it. I'm suggesting that RIGHT NOW he's not. Neither mentally or physically. If he came to play for just a week or so and dominated the game in the right way, he'd get more leeway. But right now he's not giving his full effort. He's not trying as hard as he can. He's not sacrificing himself for the team. Why should we GIVE him that? A real Champion takes it.

Did Shaq GIVE Kobe Bryant the 1b. status on the team? Did Jordan GIVE Kobe the mantle of best in the game before he retired? Did Norm Nixon GIVE Magic the PG spot on the team? No. Those guys went out and TOOK it because they deserved it, they wanted it, and they got the job done. Dwight has not shown that consistently yet this season and until I see that, why the hell should I give him more responsibilities?

JGC wrote:He's had success. HUGE success. Hasn't had it here, and maybe we need to start looking for opportunities to help him succeed the way he has with other teams. Why wouldn't we want to do this? He's supposed to be a Laker for the next decade.

I don't disagree with this point. I really don't. But why are we catering to him when he hasn't proven he wants to be here yet? He's saying the right things to the media and I'm sure to the front office, but we haven't SEEN it on the court.

We as an organization don't pander to the crybabies. We didn't pander to Shaq. We shipped Norm out. Hell any role player that tries to get more money from us gets booted eventually (Ariza comes to mind).

If Dwight is our guy, if he's the future, then I want to see him act like it. Go out and get me a 20/20 game again with a couple blocks. Then the next night go out and get me 20/15 with a couple blocks. Then the next night go out and get me 15/15/5 with a couple blocks. Has he strung those types of games together for us? No.

And I'm not blaming him necessarily, the man is injured. But that's the point I'm making: he hasn't done it and there's no reason to think he CAN do it. Just WATCHING him play shows me that strong guys can beat him, teams can strip him rather easily, and it's not hard to frustrate him and get him out of games. That's something that anyone watching him play can attest to.

And none of this goes into the idea that he's playing with KOBE BRYANT, PAU GASOL, and STEVE NASH. He SHOULD be sacrificing his game a little bit. In fact the only thing statistically that he's sacrificed is shot attempts which is totally natural when playing with this much talent.
JGC wrote:I'm sorry, I didn't see that report but I will never believe that Dwight touches the ball the 2nd most in the league like you're asserting. There's a gazillion guards that touch the ball more than he does. Either the report is wrong or you misheard it. There is absolutely no way Dwight gets more touches than every player in the league but 1.

I'm glad to see you're apologizing so much.

Dwight Howard gets the second most touches among big men in the league. I thought that was obvious in the context of my post, but you missed it. No big deal, it happens.

JGC wrote:You said, and I quote... "And Kobe only being effective 28 minutes a game? That's the reason people label you a hater."

Classically taken out of context. This is my EXACT quotation which isn't edited to fit your argument:
And Kobe only being effective 28 minutes a game? That's the reason people label you a hater. He can still be a top 5 player in the league playing 30+, just not 35+ or 40+ like he's been doing. You use hyperbole a lot and if you want to be taken more seriously, you should try not doing that.

Notice the bolded part. I don't know if you missed it, or if you're flat out lying to help your point, but you're clearly wrong here.
JGC wrote:I never said Kobe would only be effective 28 mins a game. Ever.

Again, you are definitely missing the point and that's where true reading comprehension comes into play. See, I never said you did. I said you used hyperbole to get your point across, something a lot of people do who cannot support their argument with facts or with logic. According to merriam-webster the word hyperbole means "extravagant exaggeration".

You see, in your example of "effective 28 mins a game" you're clearly underselling Kobe Bryant. You're clearly stating a time that's far too low, even for his advanced age and diminishing abilities. You're using "extravagant exaggeration" to get the point across that Kobe should play less minutes in order to be more effective in those minutes.

My point is that in doing so, you're moving the argument into an area that is not just difficult to take seriously, but can (in other situations) be offensive.

That's why people call you a hater.
JGC wrote: What I did say is that I'd like the team to find whatever number of minutes Kobe can play 100% on both sides of the ball. If he can only muster 28 mins at maximum efficiency, then that's the maximum number of minutes he should get. If it's 30, fine. I don't care about the number. I just care about the efficiency.

If you really don't care about the number, why do you keep bringing it up? Why do you keep coming back to that point and trying to continue an arguement that you're losing?

If you really didn't care and were just picking an arbitrary number you could have said from the very beginning "real, you're right! he could very likely play 30+ minutes and maintain efficiency! I only used 28+ arbitrarily, it wasn't a number I thought anything about!"

See how that would have saved you all the trouble to go through this with me?
JGC wrote:Bottom line is if our #1 guy is incapable of playing full starters minutes at maximum capacity, and we made a major trade to bring in a guy who is supposed be the heir apparent to this team, then maybe we start laying the foundation for this heir apparent to succeed rather than treating him like a guy who should just rebound and block shots so we can wear out our current #1 guy so much so that he doesn't even have the energy to try on defense.


That's a great point! I DO think Dwight should become more of a 1b instead of 2. But Dwight needs to take the necessary steps to get there, not the other way around. Why give him something he hasn't earned yet? When did any Champion win that way?

Except I don't think Kobe is incapable of playing full starters minutes at maximum capacity. Do you? Do you honestly think Kobe couldn't play 35 minutes a game and do a good enough job? Or do you think he can only play 28 minutes a game? And please, don't try to twist anything, it's a simple yes or no question.
JGC wrote:The worst thing that can happen by trying to appease more to Dwight is what, he's not interested or can't seize the opportunity and we go something like 16-24 the rest of the way and lose him anyway. (And to Borri's point, what we're doing now isn't working. And we're not a small tweak away from being elite. We need to make a FUNDAMENTAL change.) Doesn't mean we have to kick Kobe to the curb, I'm just saying, let's start the conversation, let's get the process rolling, let's phase this approach the way the Spurs did with Duncan to Parker.


Parker took that opportunity. He went out and proved that he could handle the scoring load and be that guy. Howard needs to prove he's able to do it night in and night out. Parker comes to play every night. Dwight hasn't done that for us.

And AGAIN, he's not healthy. I understand that. He might not be physically capable of being that guy every night. So do we want to continue giving him that? Putting more pressure on his already weakened body and mind? I'm not willing to do that before he proves himself to this team. I've seen too many Champions to know that just handing him the keys doesn't work. A true Champion will TAKE that opportunity. The Kobes, the Jordans, the LeBrons. Do you think greatness was ever given to them without proof? Without sacrifice? Dwight needs to learn that before I'm willing to start handing him anything.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:51 am

JGC
Well, I think we've uncovered the discrepancy in terms of where we stand on this issue. (And I'm not talking about the horrible analogy that doesn't fit or your need to come to Kobe's defense even when I'm not talking about Kobe, haha).

Ahh back to your normal higher than thou response with the laughter when you have run out of things to repeat. I disagree that it was horrible in fact since my kid is also an actor it fits very well but lets see what you repeated this time.....

The reason your analogy stinks, is because we have already said to Dwight that he's a star and that he's our future. We WANTED Bynum to be our future and Bynum certainly needed to earn it. When we traded for Dwight, we told him he'd be getting the keys to this franchise, we told him that we'd put him in a position to retire his jersey along the wall of all the other franchise greats. That's saying he's already earned it.

Yes, you are right the Lakers told him that they..... "WANTED" him to take the keys to the franchise. They didn't say it was a given especially considering we don't have him signed past this year. Dwight still had to prove that after the back surgery he was still the dominating player the Lakers are use to having. Can you say thus far this season he has shown that? How many times has he shown he can't hold on to the ball, his post game is co-dependent on having several shooters around him or his limited passing ability? He has been offered the keys to the car but has yet to prove he can drive this particular car.

If you bring me in to your company and you walk me around the office and tell me you're giving me the corner office with a view and then on my first day I end up in a storage closet, I'm not going to be very happy. And it won't matter one lick if, when I complain about it, you say "I pointed to Denzel Washington and told my son I wanted him to be a star just like him. You gotta earn it."

Those are two different things. LA told Dwight they "wanted" him to take over. if someone put out the red carpet and you don't perform then you lose that corner office regardless. Again, I don't get your point.

This has nothing to do with Kobe, and everything to do with Dwight. The only reason it even impacts Kobe is because I'm just talking about walking the talk and loosening, just a bit, the death grip that Kobe has to allow for the existence of a 1a/1b type set up like we promised. What we told Dwight when he got here isn't translating on to the court at all. From how the players play on the court, to how Kobe leads on the court, to the coaching hiring, etc, etc.


This has, as usual, everything to do with Kobe. 1. Its in the Kobe thread. 2. Your whole argument with Real has been about how Kobe needs to take a lesser role and become more like D Fish. Dwight while still recovering from his injury has not shown he is ready to be 1a or 1b for the Lakers. Even Dwight himself said he wasnt performing up to standard. Even when the Lakers featured him he got striped, got fouled and missed the free throws or just plain missed. Then complained about touches where he has been getting a ton. Shaq for all his faults made sure he outworked everyone he went up against to make sure he got the ball. While he complained about Kobe shooting the true facts were Shaq and Kobe shot within 5 shots of each other. Can you honestly say that Dwight has done anything to warrent being given the keys to the team that Earl Clark hasn't done?
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby phoenixrisingla on Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:01 am

Gotta give JGC a little props for squaring off against puffy and TRD simultaneously. :man10:

Nice discussion boys! :jam2:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby therealdeal on Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:44 pm

And by the by here's the report from @lockedonsports . I said it was Randolph from Memphis, I was wrong. I frequently get Jefferson and Rudolph mixed up.

David Locke ‏@Lockedonsports
Most Post-ups in the NBA - Al Jefferson (339), Dwight Howard (314), David West (290) LaMarcus Aldridge (275) Blake Griffin (274)
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby JGC on Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:47 pm

therealdeal wrote:I'm rusty on smashing posters and their arguments. This could take a little longer than usual.


You're still rusty! I kid, I kid.

therealdeal wrote:
JGC wrote:Where in the season did Earl show he would be capable of contributing in any manner whatsoever until he was given the opportunity? The reality is that I don't know if Dwight can and neither do you. And I never even said he would seize the opportunity. I'm saying we haven't given him the chance, the same way we never gave Earl a chance but look what happened when we did.

He didn't. There had to be a massive injury attack on the team in order for him to just get a chance to play significant minutes. The situation is ABSOLUTELY different than Howard's who is touching the ball every single night and has been a centerpiece of our offensive attack all season long. We haven't given him the chance to do what? We give him the ball a TON every single game. If he had been capable of dominating on a consistent basis, he would be doing it already. Is he capable of doing more? Maybe. But when has he proven to the team CONSISTENTLY that he's the man to pick up the reins for the team? Where has he proven that he can be effective?

Giving a kid a chance because of injuries is one thing, but Kobe Bryant accounts for a massive amount of our offense. In games we win, we win mostly because of him. In games we lose, we lose mostly because of him. Do you really, truly think Howard is capable of being that man this season?


The situation is different. But the point is that Earl was GIVEN the opportunity. Why he was given the opportunity is moot. He was given the opportunity and took it. Darius Morris was GIVEN the opportunity and didn't. I don't feel as if Dwight has been given the opportunity that was promised. And that is, to be treated as a #1 guy on this team.

Dwight has proven to be effective in Orlando. That's why we traded Bynum and picks for him. That's why we told him he'd be the future of this franchise. Has he proven to be effective here? Not yet I agree, but again, I'm saying we haven't given him that opportunity. And that means doing so on and off the court.

therealdeal wrote:
JGC wrote:Noted on the record! Haha. And you're right about Earl. When he was given the opportunity, he seized it even though he didn't ever appear capable of doing so. Has Dwight shown the capability to seize the opportunity? Not yet, but he has not been given that opportunity yet.

Again, second most touches for a big man. What would you say constitutes opportunities? In the last 4 games he's been disengaged, turnover prone, foul prone, frustration prone, out worked, and muscled out under the basket.

Until he can give us the consistent effort that he gave against Milwaukee and Cleveland, why should he be given more responsibilities? Why should we trust him with anything?


It's not just about the number. (Are offensive boards factored in to that, do you know?) The number is part of it (for instance, why isn't he #1) but it's also a question of quality of touches. Any metrics on that? Because I don't really feel like we run anything for Dwight that puts him in HIS best position to score. He's saying he's not getting the ball where he likes it, so as the future face of this franchise, why don't we figure out how to do just that?

By the way, do you not remember the big laugh you had at everyone's expense when they suggested Dwight would be concerned with his touches?
therealdeal wrote:Yeah, all I can do is laugh about people thinking Dwight is going to be worried about his touches.

It DOES matter to him. How many and where and so it should matter to us too.

therealdeal wrote:
JGC wrote:He's been treated like a role player even though he was told he was much more important than that.
Explain yourself. This is pure garbage and speculation. Role player? What role player is given the 3rd most shot attempts on the team when paired with 4 hall of fame players? In fact if you factor in his free throws, he gets the 2nd most attempts on the team. Role player indeed.


Dwight actually gets the 4th most shot attempts on the team. He's behind Kobe, Pau and then MWP. But yeah if you factor in free throws, let's say he's second in terms of attempts then.

So what would you say Pau Gasol is then if he's not a role player? He can't be a role player right? Because as you said, what role player is given the 3rd most shot attempts on a team when paired with 4 hall of famers.

So if you don't view Pau Gasol as a role player, what would you say he is? Because to me, he IS a role player. He's a guy we don't focus the offense around, we don't intentionally put in to a position to succeed, isn't in our future plans, isn't tasked to lead and instead more follow, etc.

therealdeal wrote:
JGC wrote:He's supposed to be our future, but we're not treating him like it at all. The original idea was that when Kobe is done, he/we would hand the keys to Dwight, but I'm suggesting we take a phased approach to this.
I understand what you're saying and I'm saying he doesn't deserve it. Until he's willing, and more importantly able, to TAKE the reins and PROVE he's the man for the job, why in the hell should Kobe GIVE him anything?


I think that attitude is exactly why you hear about reports about players not wanting to come here. Why doesn't he deserve it? I believe he is the only player in NBA history to ever win 3 consecutive DPOY awards. He's led his team to the finals. He is a superstar. He's already proven. The mentality of "why the hell should Kobe give anything to anybody" is tired. He's too old to have that mentality. He can't even play full starters minutes effectively on both ends of the court any more. Kobe should give him whatever he needs so that they can both win. Or are you saying pride is more important than that?

therealdeal wrote:
JGC wrote:But, my point is that you were wrong about Earl, as many of us were too, so maybe we're wrong about Dwight.
Wrong about what? I'm not suggesting that eventually Dwight won't be capable of it. I'm suggesting that RIGHT NOW he's not. Neither mentally or physically. If he came to play for just a week or so and dominated the game in the right way, he'd get more leeway. But right now he's not giving his full effort. He's not trying as hard as he can. He's not sacrificing himself for the team. Why should we GIVE him that? A real Champion takes it.

Did Shaq GIVE Kobe Bryant the 1b. status on the team? Did Jordan GIVE Kobe the mantle of best in the game before he retired? Did Norm Nixon GIVE Magic the PG spot on the team? No. Those guys went out and TOOK it because they deserved it, they wanted it, and they got the job done. Dwight has not shown that consistently yet this season and until I see that, why the hell should I give him more responsibilities?


Remember, I didn't say hand the keys over. I said start the process. He's not mentally or physically ready to start the process??? Makes no sense.

I agree he isn't ready to take over entirely, but I'm not saying that. Baby steps. We're starting to lose him and we should try to make him feel like we really do want him to be a long term part of this franchise like we said we did.

therealdeal wrote:
JGC wrote:He's had success. HUGE success. Hasn't had it here, and maybe we need to start looking for opportunities to help him succeed the way he has with other teams. Why wouldn't we want to do this? He's supposed to be a Laker for the next decade.

I don't disagree with this point. I really don't. But why are we catering to him when he hasn't proven he wants to be here yet? He's saying the right things to the media and I'm sure to the front office, but we haven't SEEN it on the court.

We as an organization don't pander to the crybabies. We didn't pander to Shaq. We shipped Norm out. Hell any role player that tries to get more money from us gets booted eventually (Ariza comes to mind).


If you knew that catering to him would result in him putting up 25 and 15 with 3 blocks every night, would you do it?

Or would you not do it out of principal?

therealdeal wrote:
JGC wrote:If Dwight is our guy, if he's the future, then I want to see him act like it. Go out and get me a 20/20 game again with a couple blocks. Then the next night go out and get me 20/15 with a couple blocks. Then the next night go out and get me 15/15/5 with a couple blocks. Has he strung those types of games together for us? No.


He already has. A few times.

- 28/13 with 3 blocks followed by...
- 23/15 with 4 blocks followed by...
- 4 FG attempts in the following game. Nice!

Here's a better string of games that matches what you said he could not do:
- 28/20 with 3 blocks followed by...
- 21/15 followed by
- 16/12 with 4 blocks

Are you saying he can't do it because you wanted a couple blocks in the second game but he didn't get any that game? Can't the 4 blocks on the third night be good enough to make up for the 2 you wanted in the second but didn't get?

therealdeal wrote:
JGC wrote:Bottom line is if our #1 guy is incapable of playing full starters minutes at maximum capacity, and we made a major trade to bring in a guy who is supposed be the heir apparent to this team, then maybe we start laying the foundation for this heir apparent to succeed rather than treating him like a guy who should just rebound and block shots so we can wear out our current #1 guy so much so that he doesn't even have the energy to try on defense.


That's a great point! I DO think Dwight should become more of a 1b instead of 2. But Dwight needs to take the necessary steps to get there, not the other way around. Why give him something he hasn't earned yet? When did any Champion win that way?


The Miami Heat say "Heeeeeyyyyy". Did they make Lebron EARN his spot as the number 1 option? Nope. They brought him in and he was leading the team in shots right off the bat. Lebron didn't "take" or "earn" that spot by working the mail room up to the corner office. They brought him in and made him feel like an important part of the team from the get go rather than making him have to pay his dues to Daddy Wade first.

therealdeal wrote:
JGC wrote:The worst thing that can happen by trying to appease more to Dwight is what, he's not interested or can't seize the opportunity and we go something like 16-24 the rest of the way and lose him anyway. (And to Borri's point, what we're doing now isn't working. And we're not a small tweak away from being elite. We need to make a FUNDAMENTAL change.) Doesn't mean we have to kick Kobe to the curb, I'm just saying, let's start the conversation, let's get the process rolling, let's phase this approach the way the Spurs did with Duncan to Parker.


Parker took that opportunity. He went out and proved that he could handle the scoring load and be that guy. Howard needs to prove he's able to do it night in and night out. Parker comes to play every night. Dwight hasn't done that for us.


Yep. He took the opportunity that was given to him. He didn't have to forcefully take it from Duncan. The team made a decision to START to hand over the keys and he ran with it. Will Dwight? Who knows until our team does the same thing.

I find it funny that no one comes to play for us every night. We said that about Bynum, Pau, 3pt shooters suddenly can't shoot. Maybe we're over-relying on something. Maybe the problem isn't every other player in the league.

Maybe it's worth a shot. Worst thing that can happen is we continue this downward spiral, Kobe is more rested, and we lose Dwight anyway but at least we can say we tried.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby therealdeal on Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:56 pm

Alright some people just don't learn.

JGC wrote:You're still rusty! I kid, I kid.


Probably less rusty than I thought since you conveniently forgot to quote the part of my post in which I picked apart your shoddy attempt at my intellect.

JGC wrote:The situation is different. But the point is that Earl was GIVEN the opportunity. Why he was given the opportunity is moot.

Of course the reason why is moot to you, because it doesn't fit into your argument. The reason is absolutely important. Clark took an opportunity that was presented to him. Howard has been presented with the opportunity already and has not taken complete advantage of the situation. What does the second most post opportunities among big men sound to you? Is that not an opportunity?

JGC wrote: He was given the opportunity and took it. Darius Morris was GIVEN the opportunity and didn't. I don't feel as if Dwight has been given the opportunity that was promised. And that is, to be treated as a #1 guy on this team.

This was NOT promised to him. The very media day he arrived Kobe said it was his team, no questions.

The promise made to him was that IN A COUPLE OF YEARS this team would be his. THAT was the promise. He was never told he'd be the number one guy on the team.
JGC wrote:Dwight has proven to be effective in Orlando. That's why we traded Bynum and picks for him. That's why we told him he'd be the future of this franchise.

He's proven to be effective at getting Defensive Player of the Year awards and All-Star votes, he's never proven that he can win a Championship as the main guy. In fact as a Laker fan you should know that because in 2009 he lost in the Finals to the Lakers; to Kobe Bryant specifically.

He was chosen to be the future of the franchise because he's the best big man in the league today. This is the Laker method, any Laker fan would know: they go find the best Center in the game at that time and they move forward from there.

JGC wrote:t's not just about the number. (Are offensive boards factored in to that, do you know?) The number is part of it (for instance, why isn't he #1) but it's also a question of quality of touches. Any metrics on that? Because I don't really feel like we run anything for Dwight that puts him in HIS best position to score. He's saying he's not getting the ball where he likes it, so as the future face of this franchise, why don't we figure out how to do just that?

That's YOUR FEELING. Your feeling constitutes opinion, my numbers constitute facts.

Just because you FEEL like he doesn't have plays run for him doesn't tell me, or anybody on this site, anything at all. It's just your feeling. I feel like burritos are more fun to eat than tacos. Doesn't mean burritos are better than tacos. Just because you FEEL like he doesn't touch the ball enough, doesn't mean he doesn't.

As for him saying he's not getting the ball where he likes it... 1. Please provide where you read that and 2. If that's true he's lying about something.

He gets the second most post touches in the league. He said he wanted to get the ball in the post; when pressed if he'd like the ball in the post more or off of a pick and roll he said in the post.

What else can the team do to help him then? Your argument for him here has too many flaws to be logical.

JGC wrote:By the way, do you not remember the big laugh you had at everyone's expense when they suggested Dwight would be concerned with his touches?

Quite honestly no. But knowing myself and yourself there was a lot more to that post and to that thought process. Care to give the entire quotation?

And if we're digging into past posts, I'm sure you'd love to see Doc Brown in here.

JGC wrote:It DOES matter to him. How many and where and so it should matter to us too.

Again: 2nd most post touches in the league. He wants the ball in the post. Where does that equate to the team/fans feeling like it doesn't matter where his touches come from? Your argument is just awful.
JGC wrote:Dwight actually gets the 4th most shot attempts on the team. He's behind Kobe, Pau and then MWP. But yeah if you factor in free throws, let's say he's second in terms of attempts then.

Okay.
JGC wrote:So what would you say Pau Gasol is then if he's not a role player? He can't be a role player right? Because as you said, what role player is given the 3rd most shot attempts on a team when paired with 4 hall of famers.

He's a hall of famer.

You see there's 4 of them on the team, right? Gasol, Howard, Bryant, and Nash. Nash doesn't even like to shoot the ball, so we can count him out. After that there's Gasol, Bryant, and Howard, right? Still with me?

Simple arithmetic states that there can only be one maximum, right? Unless of course they're all tied in shot attempts, but that's unlikely. So with the knowledge that there MUST be a descending list of shots per player how should it break down?

Well Kobe Bryant is a top 5 scorer of all time, so he's likely first. Dwight Howard is the best big man in the game, so he's likely second. Pau Gasol is still great, but that puts him at third, right? Still with me?

So that'd mean a HALL OF FAME player is 3rd in shot attempts on the team and he's NOT a role player. Even though many could argue that despite his hall of fame resume, he has indeed been more of a role player this season.

Whatever your point here was, it was awful. Consider it done.

JGC wrote:So if you don't view Pau Gasol as a role player, what would you say he is? Because to me, he IS a role player. He's a guy we don't focus the offense around, we don't intentionally put in to a position to succeed, isn't in our future plans, isn't tasked to lead and instead more follow, etc.

Again, refer to above.

JGC wrote:I think that attitude is exactly why you hear about reports about players not wanting to come here. Why doesn't he deserve it? I believe he is the only player in NBA history to ever win 3 consecutive DPOY awards. He's led his team to the finals. He is a superstar. He's already proven.

Because there's just tons of players around that don't want to be here, right? Besides a few shaky role players, please name me 5 players that have openly said "I don't want to come to LA because Kobe wouldn't pass me the torch". Please find me a short list of players that have said they wouldn't want to come here because they'd have to earn their respect. I'd love to see that.
JGC wrote: The mentality of "why the hell should Kobe give anything to anybody" is tired.

Of course it is to you. You do almost nothing on this site except tear the man down and say what he's doing wrong. Almost nothing. You of all the people on the site have the least amount of respect for the work the man put in and the trust he's built up on the back of an amazing career.

And this isn't opinion. Just a quick search of your history would show that you've done more criticizing of Kobe Bryant than you've given praise; probably at a 2:1 ratio.

JGC wrote:He's too old to have that mentality. He can't even play full starters minutes effectively on both ends of the court any more.

Again, your opinion. All of this comes down to a few of your misplaced opinions. When faced with facts your argument is so quickly shut down.

Playing an incredible 38.9 minutes per game in his SEVENTEENTH season he's 2nd in the league in scoring, shooting more efficiently than he has since 09, and defending as well as he has in the last few years against guys like Kyrie Irving and Brandon Jennings.

The only way your argument can be logically approached is if you are saying based on the results of THIS SEASON he has not been effective on both ends of the court AND that the minutes he's playing now are indicative of "starter's minutes".

Players of comparable age to Kobe play far less minutes to remain effective. If Kobe played only the amount of minutes as Tim Duncan (30.2) or Kevin Garnett (29.9) or Vince Carter (25) do you REALLY think he wouldn't be effective?

OR are you just not thinking through your argument?

JGC wrote:Remember, I didn't say hand the keys over. I said start the process. He's not mentally or physically ready to start the process??? Makes no sense.

Why doesn't it make sense? Prove to me why it doesn't make sense. Don't just dismiss someone else's opinions without facts. Tell me why I'm wrong. You've been taught better than that, I hope.
JGC wrote:I agree he isn't ready to take over entirely, but I'm not saying that. Baby steps. We're starting to lose him and we should try to make him feel like we really do want him to be a long term part of this franchise like we said we did.

2nd most post possessions in the game. How does that not scream "you're part of our long term plans". We've done nothing but talk about how much we want him to be around for the next 10 years, how is that not "part of our long term plans"?
JGC wrote:If you knew that catering to him would result in him putting up 25 and 15 with 3 blocks every night, would you do it?

Again: if he showed me on a consistent basis that he could do it, then I'd love to start giving him more responsibility. If he showed me a solid week or two of dominance, I'd love to give him that responsibility. Your hypothetical is really meaningless. If you knew that catering to him meant he would give us slightly better numbers, but his chance of injury would skyrocket would you do it?

Who cares? It doesn't matter, it's a hypothetical.
JGC wrote:Or would you not do it out of principal?

Again, irrelevant. We DON'T know that'll happen and we DON'T know if maybe it results in him being injured again.

JGC wrote:He already has. A few times.

- 28/13 with 3 blocks followed by...
- 23/15 with 4 blocks followed by...
- 4 FG attempts in the following game. Nice!

Here's a better string of games that matches what you said he could not do:
- 28/20 with 3 blocks followed by...
- 21/15 followed by
- 16/12 with 4 blocks

Are you saying he can't do it because you wanted a couple blocks in the second game but he didn't get any that game? Can't the 4 blocks on the third night be good enough to make up for the 2 you wanted in the second but didn't get?

No I'm saying he can't do it because he's also had stretches like this:
-11/6 with 2 blocks
-14/12 with 2 blocks
-12/7 with 1 block.

Or how about the 4 games just before YOUR examples:
-7/9 with 1 block
-7/4 with 4 blocks
-15/7 with 2 blocks
-17/8 with 4 blocks.

All solid? Well yes, they're NOT BAD. But they aren't dominant either. And until he puts together more consistency than I've seen, I'm not comfortable giving him any more responsibility than he has now. Until he plays hard throughout a game or two or three games, even if he's not touching the ball offensively, I don't trust him to start taking more control.

JGC wrote:The Miami Heat say "Heeeeeyyyyy". Did they make Lebron EARN his spot as the number 1 option? Nope. They brought him in and he was leading the team in shots right off the bat.

You realize there's more to the game than shot attempts right? The Miami Heat had to make it to the playoffs with LeBron and Wade sharing the responsibilities. Then the next season LeBron is clearly the number one man on the team and he earned that. He earned that by taking the team to the Finals.

So "heeeeeyyyyy" right back.

JGC wrote: Lebron didn't "take" or "earn" that spot by working the mail room up to the corner office. They brought him in and made him feel like an important part of the team from the get go rather than making him have to pay his dues to Daddy Wade first.

Who said he had to start at the bottom of the totem? Again with the hyperbole, I thought we'd talked about that already? Remember? Maybe not, because it was part of the post you didn't respond to.

And OF COURSE LEBRON EARNED IT! Again! He took the team to the Finals! And he DID share responsibilities with Wade the entire first season they were together! It wasn't until last year that LeBron was clearly the leader of the team and both Wade and Bosh took backseats to that! It seems you're just trying to revise history because you don't know any of it.

JGC wrote:Yep. He took the opportunity that was given to him. He didn't have to forcefully take it from Duncan. The team made a decision to START to hand over the keys and he ran with it. Will Dwight? Who knows until our team does the same thing.

Oh yeah, San Antonio just gave Parker that responsibility. It's not like he didn't earn that chance being the 2nd or 3rd best player on a Championship team. You're really reaching here because you don't know what you're talking about.

Parker EARNED the right to take the helm from Duncan, or at least to share that load. Has Dwight done that? Even better, has he done that next to Kobe Bryant? Has he shared in that journey? Or do you really just hand the keys over to a guy without proof he'll come through?

JGC wrote:I find it funny that no one comes to play for us every night. We said that about Bynum, Pau, 3pt shooters suddenly can't shoot. Maybe we're over-relying on something. Maybe the problem isn't every other player in the league.

Who said that? Clark does. Hill did. Meeks tries. Metta World Peace sure as hell does. Hell even Steve Blake plays hard, he just sucks. Trevor Ariza played hard for this team. Jordan Farmar, Shannon Brown, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox. Are these guys who never came to play? No, these are Champions who worked and sacrificed to get to that point.

Has Dwight earned what they earned?

It's about finding the guy with heart enough to do what's necessary to win rings. Young guys may not see that, so I don't blame you. It comes with age and with watching the NBA for a long time and for watching a lot of Championship teams come through here.

JGC wrote:Maybe it's worth a shot. Worst thing that can happen is we continue this downward spiral, Kobe is more rested, and we lose Dwight anyway but at least we can say we tried.

If Dwight left today could he say "at least I tried?" If he were honest with himself he couldn't say he tried hard every single night. And if not, then a real Laker fan wouldn't want him here.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: Dead legs

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:31 pm

Im waiting for the 1-full page response... Lets make it happen
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