Kobe Bryant Discussion: Reason for Lakers downfall?

Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby phoenixrisingla on Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:38 pm

Murdock wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:I did watch the game. The stats are an indication of WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

Not the plays that you remember more because they make you mad, and not the plays that you forget because they dont agree with your pre-conceived ideas you've already formed.

If PAU, Dwight, and MWP made more of the shots that they DID TAKE, we would have won the game. END OF STORY.

I'm VERY cool with Kobe shooting less. But when the rest of the team is shooting 35% we have to score points, lest we witness a 20pt blowout to the 76ers.

Am I taking crazy pills??? :disagree:

funny thought ... when someone bashes Kobe based on stats ... everybody claims that stats can't picture it ... hmmm but other way around it is acceptable ... not a bash against Kobe ... just a random thought


People can definitely go both ways. I for one like stats for the reason that I mentioned above.

Its HARD to watch a game completely objectively. Especially when its a team you root for and are emotionally invested in.

Stats may not paint the whole picture, but they are a good place to start because they are irrefutable facts of events that occurred.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby The Rock on Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:49 pm

Lets look at the shot locations. Kobe was the most efficient in the paint he got he most free throws and yet when he tries to score and bring the team back hes getting blamed while the rest of the starters have sucked it up while shooting shots closer to the basket in the paint area?

Pau
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MWP

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Dwight

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Kobe
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby The Rock on Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:50 pm

And I say this about Pau for someone whos known as a skilled big man he cant convert an open 13 to 15 footer, what kind of skilled big man is that??
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby phoenixrisingla on Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:53 pm

^^ Good info Rock.

Depressing to know that Howard missed every single shot that wasnt a dunk. :bang:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby TIME on Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:43 pm

There were two posts on the last page that attempted to make the point that anyone that disagreed with their criticism of Kobe did so only because they are "Kobe fans". It's a cheap shot way of trying to win an argument. Please familiarize yourselves with this site rule:

http://www.clublakers.com/site-rules/rules-for-referring-fan-groups-opposing-view-points-t83987.html

I was not saying that Kobe does not need to make any adjustments or that he is not part of the problem, or that he is just perfect and above criticism.

What I am saying is that the posters making the argument that we lost the game last night because Kobe ball hogged are pinning the tail on the wrong donkey. You are essentially saying (whether you intended to or not) that the offense was the main reason we lost. It was not. We scored enough points to win. What we did not do is play solid, committed, consistent, energetic, smart defense. Kobe had a part in that, but that has nothing to do with whether he passed the ball enough.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby halekulani on Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:45 pm

if kobe could just cut his 3pta down to 3 a game, his fg% would be 50+% ez

i also hope someone makes a mix of his mid-short range game this year
his footwork is phenomenal and can't be stopped
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby JLaker17 on Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:45 pm

Kobe stop shooting almost 50% and PASS to the bigs more who we can be really efficient with going amazingly 3 for 19 shooting.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby JGC on Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:00 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:What i'm seeing is solid, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of Kobe from many different posters and all the Kobe fans are getting so defensive. No one said we lost cause of him. That would be insane. But how can anyone NOT notice his ball hogging ways for many games this year?

Who has the numbers for our team record when he scores under 30, 30+ and 40+? How about taking under 20 shots, 20-25 shots and 25+ shots? Basketball is a team game. As soon as you forget that, you aren't going to win. When your top dog forgets to get your teammates involved, that is a cardinal sin.


This.

It makes it really difficult to have a real discussion because every time someone brings up Kobe and his shot totals, the first response you almost always get is something sarcastic along the lines of "Oh, it's ALL Kobe's fault". Somehow, what he does cannot be criticized unless what he does comprises 100% of the teams's problems. I just don't believe it is feasible for reasonable fans to believe, deep down in their hearts, that the way Kobe played overall against the 76ers was NOT a net negative when you factor in distribution of the ball and defense.

The bottom line is that there are going to be games where you need hero ball. There is no doubt. When we've tried to move the ball, when Kobe is setting guys up and they are unable to make shots and we start to fall behind. I'll say it again. There are times when Kobe will need to take upwards of nearly 30 shots in a game to bail us out of wins. But it should only happen after we've tried and tried and tried to get the team concept working and only when we have exhausted all other avenues to get the team concept working should we resort to such a desperate and unsuccessful tactic. We should give it a try for at least 3 full quarters before thinking about bailing on it. In other words, it should almost NEVER happen. We win as a team, and we lose as a team.

Plus, I thought the purpose of these first set of games in the regular season was to build chemistry as a team. How exactly do we build chemistry by bailing on the team concept in the 1st/2nd/3rd quarters? If we're trying to get as much on-court time together as a unit, wouldn't it make sense to force the team concept for every min of the game early in the season until we've jelled even at the expense of W/L? All hero ball has done is take us out of any chemistry building flows, and then we've sacrified that just to add more Ls to the Loss column. That's like, a double whammy.

It seems that every game, the popular response is to say "Well, without Kobe hero ball, we would have lost by 20" or something along those lines. But that should not be viewed as a justification of Kobe hero ball at all. It should be viewed as an indictment on our team's ability to play at a level high enough, and with enough consistency, to avoid resorting to such an inept tactic.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby nickvanexel on Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:12 pm

Kobe said, that he's playing better than ever this season. And I saw some glimpses of proof in some of the better Laker games - even in the Philly game. He knows he's still capable of magic, and puts himself under too much pressure. He's totally frustrated - and rightly so! This is a great team, and still something is not clicking. I like seeing him upset and frustrated after all these terrible games. There's still hope. I still hope for a comeback and Kobe and his killer instinct will play a great role in it, if its gonna happen...
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby thisbjgz on Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:18 pm

JGC wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:What i'm seeing is solid, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of Kobe from many different posters and all the Kobe fans are getting so defensive. No one said we lost cause of him. That would be insane. But how can anyone NOT notice his ball hogging ways for many games this year?

Who has the numbers for our team record when he scores under 30, 30+ and 40+? How about taking under 20 shots, 20-25 shots and 25+ shots? Basketball is a team game. As soon as you forget that, you aren't going to win. When your top dog forgets to get your teammates involved, that is a cardinal sin.


This.

It makes it really difficult to have a real discussion because every time someone brings up Kobe and his shot totals, the first response you almost always get is something sarcastic along the lines of "Oh, it's ALL Kobe's fault". Somehow, what he does cannot be criticized unless what he does comprises 100% of the teams's problems. I just don't believe it is feasible for reasonable fans to believe, deep down in their hearts, that the way Kobe played overall against the 76ers was NOT a net negative when you factor in distribution of the ball and defense.

The bottom line is that there are going to be games where you need hero ball. There is no doubt. When we've tried to move the ball, when Kobe is setting guys up and they are unable to make shots and we start to fall behind. I'll say it again. There are times when Kobe will need to take upwards of nearly 30 shots in a game to bail us out of wins. But it should only happen after we've tried and tried and tried to get the team concept working and only when we have exhausted all other avenues to get the team concept working should we resort to such a desperate and unsuccessful tactic. We should give it a try for at least 3 full quarters before thinking about bailing on it. In other words, it should almost NEVER happen. We win as a team, and we lose as a team.

Plus, I thought the purpose of these first set of games in the regular season was to build chemistry as a team. How exactly do we build chemistry by bailing on the team concept in the 1st/2nd/3rd quarters? If we're trying to get as much on-court time together as a unit, wouldn't it make sense to force the team concept for every min of the game early in the season until we've jelled even at the expense of W/L? All hero ball has done is take us out of any chemistry building flows, and then we've sacrified that just to add more Ls to the Loss column. That's like, a double whammy.

It seems that every game, the popular response is to say "Well, without Kobe hero ball, we would have lost by 20" or something along those lines. But that should not be viewed as a justification of Kobe hero ball at all. It should be viewed as an indictment on our team's ability to play at a level high enough, and with enough consistency, to avoid resorting to such an inept tactic.


finally, someone who shares the same thoughts as me.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Finwë on Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:36 pm

TIME wrote:Sometimes I think I'm visiting the Twilight Zone in this thread.

Kobe did NOT cause his teammates to be ice cold last night. They just were. He did not cause their lack of energy. He did not make Pau and Dwight just stand there at the end of the game and watch when JRich waltzed down the lane for an uncontested dunk. IF what some of you are suggesting was actually true then it would have affected Jordan Hill along with the rest of the team. It didn't seem to my eyes like Kobe sucked the life out of Jordan Hill. Kid was hustling and working out there. Some of our key players just did not show up.

Here is the truth of it. Kobe did his job (at least on offense). He scored the ball at around 50% and he kept us in the game. If he had passed the ball around last night we would have been blown out. The big issue with this team is not with Kobe failing to pass the ball. It's with the lack of consistent energy, effort and defense.

This.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Finwë on Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:40 pm

JGC wrote:
Chillbongo wrote:At the end of the game we almost needed Kobe ball. Bad decisions down the stretch though.

Though my problem is, he CAME OUT IN THE FIRST with a "im just gonna score" mentality. Was looking to get a shot up the whole night.

Think we should've let Nash orchestrate more tonight. Get guys looks. Get em engaged on D.

Kobe benefits this team 99% of the time, but I thought tonight his play was selfish from the get go.


Saw the game exactly the same as you bro. I felt like you could see guys disengage after a while too because they knew the ball was staying in Kobe's hands. That always bothers me and not everyone notices those kinds of things either.

I just don't know where you get this stuff from. I saw the game and saying this was the case IMO is just blatantly false.
It's not that "not everyone notices those kinds of things", it's more like no one agrees that was the case/there's no evidence, visual or statistical that this is the case. It's just made up, IMHO.
Maybe one or two games this season, but not nearly as often as you tend to suggest and not last night either.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby hdtvset on Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:45 pm

Kobe did say something like I played this way for many years and won championship with it.

In other words, he is not changing the way he plays...it doesn't matter who is the coach or system, or teammates. :bang:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Finwë on Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:46 pm

OX1947 wrote:Here is my advice to many of you. Turn the (bleep) of Sportscenter, watch the game a second time if you have to and learn what is actually going on out there.

Great advice. Seems people are just making stuff up or just coming up with conclusions of what happened based on the box score. I keep reading statements about X and Y that are just FALSE, that did not happen in the game, and I'm like "where is he getting this from? did he watch the game?".
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Finwë on Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:47 pm

Greatest of All Time wrote:
borri wrote:The people complaining about assists, they don't realize that if it weren't for Kobe, Nash would had around 5 assists for the entire night....not the 10 that he had.

You can pass the ball all night long and get next to nothing in assists totals. It ain't an assist until someone makes a damn shot.

Gets back to the point.....3 our of 5 main offensive options went 1-7, 2-11, 6-17. What's so damn hard about this?


but...but...they were disengaged because Kobe Bryant was taking all the shots and they were feeling bad about themselves. Clearly Kobe should have hugged them and told them everything was going to be ok.

:man10:
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Finwë on Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:51 pm

TIME wrote:
I was not saying that Kobe does not need to make any adjustments or that he is not part of the problem, or that he is just perfect and above criticism.

What I am saying is that the posters making the argument that we lost the game last night because Kobe ball hogged are pinning the tail on the wrong donkey. You are essentially saying (whether you intended to or not) that the offense was the main reason we lost. It was not. We scored enough points to win. What we did not do is play solid, committed, consistent, energetic, smart defense. Kobe had a part in that, but that has nothing to do with whether he passed the ball enough.

This too.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby phoenixrisingla on Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:56 pm

I feel lik this site and its members is pretty fair in its assessment of kobe. When he's hurting us I think we're usually there to point it out.

Right now his numbers are huge AND very efficient. I know you can make the argument thta he disrupts game flow, which is very true, but it's hard to be angry at a guy in the top 5 PER in the league when the rest of our team struggles.

That said, I'd love to get back to a more flowing passing game with Nash directing. Kobe hero ball is so hard to watch. lol
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby borri on Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:56 pm

I just rewatched the game. The negative critiques of Kobe after the game is full of it or a product of selective memory.

Please watch the game again.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby TIME on Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:01 pm

borri wrote:I just rewatched the game. The negative critiques of Kobe after the game is full of it or a product of selective memory.

Please watch the game again.


One of the benefits of the new TWC Lakers channel. I'm watching every game at least twice now. It's cool the things you notice when rewatching.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby borri on Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:04 pm

TIME wrote:
borri wrote:I just rewatched the game. The negative critiques of Kobe after the game is full of it or a product of selective memory.

Please watch the game again.


One of the benefits of the new TWC Lakers channel. I'm watching every game at least twice now. It's cool the things you notice when rewatching.


Yup. Even when it was on FOX, i used to watch game twice.

This year, not so much, because it's more painful the second time around. Especially when you can focus more on defensive rotations. God it has been FUGLY.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby phoenixrisingla on Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:04 pm

TIME wrote:
borri wrote:I just rewatched the game. The negative critiques of Kobe after the game is full of it or a product of selective memory.

Please watch the game again.


One of the benefits of the new TWC Lakers channel. I'm watching every game at least twice now. It's cool the things you notice when rewatching.


I know right. Plus so many different laker shows. Lol

What a time sink... :jam2:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby The Rock on Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:05 pm

I know his D has sucked but hes manning the ship on O so far, we need the guys around him to rally and continue battling like MWP, MEeks and Hill did. Metta struggled a lot last night but he turned it up late in the game, hit 2 key baskets, a 3 and even made a critical stop. Need guys who can fight play more mins than the duds like Morris and Pau

https://twitter.com/LakersReporter/status/286561144750092288

Kobe is shooting 52.6% in his last 4 games, while playing 42+ minutes in 3 of those 4. He’s averaging 30.3 ppg this season.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby borri on Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:07 pm

The Rock wrote:I know his D has sucked but hes manning the ship on O so far, we need the guys around him to rally and continue battling like MWP, MEeks and Hill did. Metta struggled a lot last night but he turned it up late in the game, hit 2 key baskets, a 3 and even made a critical stop. Need guys who can fight play more mins than the duds like Morris and Pau

https://twitter.com/LakersReporter/status/286561144750092288

Kobe is shooting 52.6% in his last 4 games, while playing 42+ minutes in 3 of those 4. He’s averaging 30.3 ppg this season.


Kobe took 4 buzzer beaters last night which he missed. He was very efficient last night, 14-25 if you take away those 4 shots.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby JGC on Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:09 pm

Finwë wrote:
JGC wrote:
Chillbongo wrote:At the end of the game we almost needed Kobe ball. Bad decisions down the stretch though.

Though my problem is, he CAME OUT IN THE FIRST with a "im just gonna score" mentality. Was looking to get a shot up the whole night.

Think we should've let Nash orchestrate more tonight. Get guys looks. Get em engaged on D.

Kobe benefits this team 99% of the time, but I thought tonight his play was selfish from the get go.


Saw the game exactly the same as you bro. I felt like you could see guys disengage after a while too because they knew the ball was staying in Kobe's hands. That always bothers me and not everyone notices those kinds of things either.

I just don't know where you get this stuff from. I saw the game and saying this was the case IMO is just blatantly false.
It's not that "not everyone notices those kinds of things", it's more like no one agrees that was the case/there's no evidence, visual or statistical that this is the case. It's just made up, IMHO.
Maybe one or two games this season, but not nearly as often as you tend to suggest and not last night either.


IMO, saying it is false, is blatantly false! :man10:

Seriously though ... How do I see these things you ask? I observe the games and sometimes watch them back. There's no... particular method I can show you or magic wand (for lack of a better term! hehe) on HOW exactly I'm able to see these things. Read through the thread, other people see it too!

I'm at work and I know this isn't the greatest example but take a look at the following still from the game. Nash gives Kobe the ball and look at the teammates. Just standing around watching him. No one with their hands in the ready position, no one moving with any kind of deliberation. They're ball watching. This is just an example (remember, not THE example, and not ALL the examples, just AN example) of what I am talking about when I say they looked disengaged to me. I mean, did they really looked engaged to you throughout the game? Is that what we're disagreeing on? I guess I'll try to find an example of what I am talking about.

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(Yes, I know this is the play where Kobe drove baseline and dunked the ball but at this precise moment captured in time, no one knew that was going to happen in the future. So we should see guys with hands in the ready position, moving around, cutting, whatever).

You may see engagement here. I just don't. Sorry.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby phoenixrisingla on Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:16 pm

JGC wrote:IMO, saying it is false, is blatantly false! :man10:

Seriously though ... How do I see these things you ask? I observe the games and sometimes watch them back. There's no... particular method I can show you or magic wand (for lack of a better term! hehe) on HOW exactly I'm able to see these things. Read through the thread, other people see it too!

I'm at work and I know this isn't the greatest example but take a look at the following still from the game. Nash gives Kobe the ball and look at the teammates. Just standing around watching him. No one with their hands in the ready position, no one moving with any kind of deliberation. They're ball watching. This is just an example (remember, not THE example, and not ALL the examples, just AN example) of what I am talking about when I say they looked disengaged to me. I mean, did they really looked engaged to you throughout the game? Is that what we're disagreeing on? I guess I'll try to find an example of what I am talking about.

(Yes, I know this is the play where Kobe drove baseline and dunked the ball but at this precise moment captured in time, no one knew that was going to happen in the future. So we should see guys with hands in the ready position, moving around, cutting, whatever).

You may see engagement here. I just don't. Sorry.


It a tough thing to try to analyze. I think way things are phrased sometimes people think you're trying to say even if kobe's teammates can't make shots and kobe can, he's still the one responsible for making them play hard. Seems like if they are shooting cold and kobe is shooting hot, they'd be happy to play hard to get the win?

I agree he could pass more, but just wanted to try to clarify what some people might feel.
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