Kobe Thread: Bucher- Kobe = Father of Team USA Success p.819

Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby Chillbongo on Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:39 am

Lakeshow24 wrote:As a lifelong Kobe fan, I'm devastated. Very depressed right now (relative to sports, not life). :disagree:
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby havoc33 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:53 am

I hate to say it, but when I saw the highlights of the Grizzlies game some hours after the game, and saw Kobe go down, I got instant flashbacks to when he hurt his achilles. It was just something about how he was rubbing it, and really curling his lip. He had that same look in his face as when he shot those freethrows with his achilles ruptured. Maybe Kobe himself even sensed something was wrong, as many of you commented on his subdued body language throughout the 4th quarter?

In any case this is absolutely devastating news. It is obvious that his body is breaking down. We were in many ways lucky that Kobe managed to extend his career even this far. He has had numerous injuries in past years, and I remember Phil being extremely concerned about Kobe's health as far back as the 2010 season. If he comes back anywhere near his normal self, he really needs to watch his minutes. No more playing 35+ a game. He needs to go the Duncan route, and be available and fresh when it matters. Something tells me though that we have seen the last of Bean as we know him and that really freaking sucks. I grew up with the guy and I hate seeing him go out like this. I would have much preferred him calling it a day after that achilles rupture to be honest. He came off a historical season at his age, and if he retired after shooting freethrows while his achilles shot, yeah that would be a legendary image right there and kind of a great, but tragic end that so many heroes has faced throughout history. He was and always will be one of the toughest warriors that ever laced them up.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby LakerFan1235 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:12 am

^But as Ice Cube says in the Nike Ad, if he never played again, he would be a legend, but he wouldn't be Kobe Bryant.

Chillbongo wrote:
Lakeshow24 wrote:As a lifelong Kobe fan, I'm devastated. Very depressed right now (relative to sports, not life). :disagree:
Every time I begin to ask, "Is he really as great as I think he is?" ...He proves that he is.
Every time I begin to wonder...He proves it...That is why I won't lose hope in him.
You know who I am talking about.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby revgen on Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:44 am

According to the ESPN doctor, the 6 week estimate is a "modest number" and that it may take more than 6 weeks for the injury to heal, which may mean him missing the all-star game.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=10168060
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby Herm24 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:29 am

LakerFan1235 wrote:^But as Ice Cube says in the Nike Ad, if he never played again, he would be a legend, but he wouldn't be Kobe Bryant.

Chillbongo wrote:
Lakeshow24 wrote:As a lifelong Kobe fan, I'm devastated. Very depressed right now (relative to sports, not life). :disagree:



What ice cube commercial are you talking about?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby Rooscooter on Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:37 am

havoc33 wrote:I hate to say it, but when I saw the highlights of the Grizzlies game some hours after the game, and saw Kobe go down, I got instant flashbacks to when he hurt his achilles. It was just something about how he was rubbing it, and really curling his lip. He had that same look in his face as when he shot those freethrows with his achilles ruptured. Maybe Kobe himself even sensed something was wrong, as many of you commented on his subdued body language throughout the 4th quarter?

In any case this is absolutely devastating news. It is obvious that his body is breaking down. We were in many ways lucky that Kobe managed to extend his career even this far. He has had numerous injuries in past years, and I remember Phil being extremely concerned about Kobe's health as far back as the 2010 season. If he comes back anywhere near his normal self, he really needs to watch his minutes. No more playing 35+ a game. He needs to go the Duncan route, and be available and fresh when it matters. Something tells me though that we have seen the last of Bean as we know him and that really freaking sucks. I grew up with the guy and I hate seeing him go out like this. I would have much preferred him calling it a day after that achilles rupture to be honest. He came off a historical season at his age, and if he retired after shooting freethrows while his achilles shot, yeah that would be a legendary image right there and kind of a great, but tragic end that so many heroes has faced throughout history. He was and always will be one of the toughest warriors that ever laced them up.


I think it's a little early for the eulogy…… he's 35 not 40. I do think he will need a full summer of conditioning to get back to his full potential. The Achilles injury sets 25 year olds back a year or more typically so I don't think what we saw is way out of line for that injury and the new injury doesn't appear to be related from what I can see.

I'll reserve the "seen the last of Bean" stuff for next November when he's had a full recovery time and proper conditioning. This year I think he's going to be about what we saw in the Memphis game. Effective but limited.

This team is going no where with or without him so as far as furthering the balance of his career and his chances at another ring it may actually help if we aren't as good this year as we could be without the injuries. Not saying "tank", but the results aren't going to be so good with the group we have currently. It also may prompt Ownership to finally move Pau for pieces to help un in the next couple of years. I think the fan base would appreciate seeing a plan and action on it over a few additional wins this year anyway.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby lukewaltonsdad on Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:39 am

revgen wrote:According to the ESPN doctor, the 6 week estimate is a "modest number" and that it may take more than 6 weeks for the injury to heal, which may mean him missing the all-star game.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=10168060


Yup. Heard that interview with Dr. Klapper with Mark Williard...he said it's going to take 6 weeks just for the bone to heal itself. This is not including the rehab part of it. He said it looks more like he's going to be for 2 months. He said this injury could be a blessing in disguise, though. It could be a chance for Kobe to get that Achilles strengthened more than it already was when he initially came back.

On that note, in two months, if we're completely out of the PO picture, does he even come back? I mean can he just sit, take the rest of the year off to get his body right? Then with training camp/preseason comes around, he can use that additional time to round into form. I'm not one for tanking, but considering the options in FA in the foreseeable future, this year may be your best opportunity to get a franchise changing player...or maybe even a nice prospect on a rookie deal. Anyways, we'll see how this plays out...
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby Herm24 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:17 am

He's going to play regardless if we're in the playoff picture or not .. Kobe is 600 or so points away from passing Jordan on the all time scoring list .. and passing him is important to him
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby lakerfan2 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:29 am

I'm sorry. Kobe trips and falls on his knee, possibly over Tony Allen, and MDA gets blamed for playing him too much?

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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby 432J on Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:44 am

out for 6 weeks in lakers medical staff terms is more like out for 2-3 months

just shut him down for the season and he'll be scary next season after all the rehab
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby kray28 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:54 am

lakerfan2 wrote:I'm sorry. Kobe trips and falls on his knee, possibly over Tony Allen, and MDA gets blamed for playing him too much?

:man10:


The guy went from 7 months off to averaging 30 minutes a game in one week. Then with no PGs left, they dumped it all on his shoulders as well, instead of going out and getting some extra help.

They just asked for too much, too soon....and it got Kobe hurt.

Basically the argument is less minutes would have decreased the chances of this happening like it did...and given his body the chance to acclimatize to the typical beating it takes during an NBA game, especially with a physical defender like Tony Allen on you.

I'm not blaming Allen or anything...but there was a lot of contact and tough physical D being played which directly contributed to that hyperextension.

What is not disputable though:
Neither D'Antoni nor the training staff did or said anything to prevent Kobe from playing out the rest of the game. I think it's quite possible the injury is worse now because he was allowed to play on.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby lakerfan2 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:57 am

That could have happened the first minute of his first game back. These types of injuries happen.

Now if it were an injury that were spontaneous, I would be more suspect to MDA.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby kray28 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:03 am

lakerfan2 wrote:That could have happened the first minute of his first game back. These types of injuries happen.

Now if it were an injury that were spontaneous, I would be more suspect to MDA.


Yeah, but there's a pattern here no, right? Kobe gets hurt, does his whole, "I'm okay, I'm not coming out of the game" thing....and D'Antoni and Vitti just say, "okay...anything you want Kob"

It happened twice on April 12th...and the third time it was the Achilles.

It happened only once in this one....but I think it was a serious enough injury that any medical personnel would have at the very least forced an x-ray. Instead they just took Kobe's word that it was okay and stuck their heads in the sand.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby Rooscooter on Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:18 am

Kobe playing after the injury is not on MDA IMHO…. he acts on information he's given by the training staff. The training staff acts on information given by the player and a physical assessment.


Rampant speculation about what should have been done and what was done is just short of hysteria at this point.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby karacha on Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:22 am

It's not MDA's job to be a team doctor and evaluate injuries, come on. This is definitely not his fault.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby kray28 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:31 am

Rooscooter wrote:Kobe playing after the injury is not on MDA IMHO…. he acts on information he's given by the training staff. The training staff acts on information given by the player and a physical assessment.
Rampant speculation about what should have been done and what was done is just short of hysteria at this point.


The training staff sucks...they've let us down seemingly countless times. Misdiagnosed injuries, inappropriate rehab/training methods and a general lack of proactivity to safeguard player welfare. Kobe's the type of guy who needs to be protected from himself.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby kray28 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:34 am

karacha wrote:It's not MDA's job to be a team doctor and evaluate injuries, come on. This is definitely not his fault.


It's his call always to decide who gets on and stays on the floor. It wasn't hard to see that well after the injury that Kobe was still rubbing the knee. I saw it and was really worried...and I was still skeptical when he said it was "okay". Something didn't sound right about it.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby therealdeal on Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:38 am

karacha wrote:It's not MDA's job to be a team doctor and evaluate injuries, come on. This is definitely not his fault.

You know most people need a scapegoat.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby karacha on Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:07 pm

kray28 wrote:
karacha wrote:It's not MDA's job to be a team doctor and evaluate injuries, come on. This is definitely not his fault.


It's his call always to decide who gets on and stays on the floor. It wasn't hard to see that well after the injury that Kobe was still rubbing the knee. I saw it and was really worried...and I was still skeptical when he said it was "okay". Something didn't sound right about it.


What can I say...

if a player tweaks a knee, ankle or whatever and the coach asks if he's OK -- player says "yeah, I can play, I'm fine"... the coach will play him. That's nothing unusual, we've all seen this many times, and the player usually is fine after a few minutes. If Kobe knew something was wrong, he should have asked the coach to get him out of the game ASAP.

Again, a basketball coach should never evaluate injuries. A player has to know whether he can play or not, and a medical staff is there to check this in the locker room at first and then do something about it after the game if it's serious. Would you like an NBA coach to look at you and prescribe a therapy next time you get injured? I would not. I would go to the doctor, but that's just me...
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby revgen on Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:17 pm

lakerfan2 wrote:That could have happened the first minute of his first game back. These types of injuries happen.

Now if it were an injury that were spontaneous, I would be more suspect to MDA.


I don't really fault the minutes as much as I fault the role Kobe was playing.

He should have started off the ball for his first several weeks. Unfortunately, our PG situation forced him into ball-handling duties that his body wasn't ready for.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby trodgers on Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:20 pm

I don't really fault D'Antoni for the way this particular injury happened, but the larger picture is that D'Antoni runs guys into the ground.

Hey, Kobe. You haven't played in ages? Have I got a list of crazy stuff for you to do - you'll be playing 30 MPG, playing PG, and I'll just see what you can do covering Westbrook. I mean, you're cool with this; right?

Kobe is NOT a guy who will ever say that enough is enough - even when it obviously is. That's why he needs a handler of some sort, a voice of reason. D'Antoni seems to feed Kobe's single-minded devotion to proving himself the most inhuman human ever.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby Chillbongo on Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:10 pm

I blame them both. When you have an extreme alpha personality like Kobe, it's only acceptable to have an extreme alpha coach. By no means should a player call the shots. Especially off of a devastating injury.

So move #1 that was a failure, was getting a yes-man in Brown/D'Antoni to coach Kobe. Few would be able to handle that responsibility. Shaw as Kobe's former teammate and assistant coach, may have been able to do it. Another was Sloan. Thibs too but he wasn't available.

And you have to blame Kobe. There's a point where you need to come to terms with mortality and the Achilles injury was the beginning of that. He's still acting like he's 31. That's just who he is. It brought us a lot of success but it's all the more legendary because Kobe Bryant's story is slowly turning into that of the Tragic Hero...
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby The Rock on Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:25 pm

23 points, 11 rebounds, 15 assists without Shaq vs Jordan 2002

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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby karacha on Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:29 pm

trodgers wrote:Kobe is NOT a guy who will ever say that enough is enough - even when it obviously is. That's why he needs a handler of some sort, a voice of reason...


Kobe had that guy in Phil Jackson, and even Zen Master called him stubborn and uncoachable. Kobe became a much better leader later in his career, for sure, but he wasn't any less stubborn. The only guy in the league who would sit Kobe down and then tell the press it is because of Kobe's "advanced age" is Pop. Possibly Thibs, who learned under Pop, and Sloan who would spice it up with a bunch of expletives just to prove a point -- but he's not coaching anymore. That's the short list.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Out min. 6 weeks; #BrokenNotBeaten

Postby Vasashi17 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:46 pm

lakerfan2 wrote:That could have happened the first minute of his first game back. These types of injuries happen.

Now if it were an injury that were spontaneous, I would be more suspect to MDA.


This is my biggest problem with this argument.

You throw a healthy body out there and sure, a fluke injury could occur within minutes of setting foot out on the floor.

But we're not talking about that particular possibility. We already have an underlying predisposition of medical history. Kob was coming back from an injury....an injury that needed to be monitored since it was previously considered to be the kiss of death towards an athlete's career.

The injury is just one aspect of a layered problem. Kobe is at an accelerated age and is now in his 18th season in the league. Then take into consideration the type of seasons he's routinely had where he's played about 2 months more than the majority of his peers. Then take into consideration the abridged summers he's had with his commitments to the Olympics.

Bottomline is that Kobe's wheels have significant wear and tear. You put a healthy Kobe out there and no one is pointing fingers at MDA for playing him 30 minutes per. That would actually be applauded. Instead, you have an aged Kobe recovering from an injury that is playing more minutes than necessary.

Knowing Kobe's medical history, MDA threw him in and added 10 minutes of playing time to the 20 minute quota that was given upon his return. His responsibilities are not to camp out on the perimeter and wait for an open jumper or to roam (and hide) on defense....he's put on ball duty immediately and asked to produce from that position for about 30 minutes per.

After an injury, isn't recovery part of the healing process? You don't just step off the operating table and step onto the court. Its those baby steps that lead to a proper rehabilitation.

Upon introduction back to the court, the same principle should have applied. Bring Kobe along slowly via games to get him back into game shape. Get a good sweat, bump that blood pressure and condition him to playing 20 efficient minutes....then and only then, bump it to 25, then on to 30. That's common sense.

Its true that within the first minutes of stepping foot back onto the court, Kobe could have gotten re-injured. But he had to log that minute to get injured. Logging more minutes increases your chance of re-injury. That's the point! Limit minutes and you limit the chance of re-injury...and it absolutely boggles the mind that fans just don't realize that.

Its entirely on the coach to distribute minutes responsibly amongst his players. MDA fails and continues to fail in that regard. This isn't the first time we've discussed MDA's rotations/doghouses. Dude has been a poor judge at minute distributions. How can any Lakers fan dispute this?

Its absurd at how he HAS handled Kobe and how he continues to handle him upon his short-lived return.
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