Kobe Thread: Bucher- Kobe = Father of Team USA Success p.819

Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Aonex on Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:49 pm

Not sure if this has been posted anywhere, but interesting read:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/67116/los-angeles-lakers-kobe-bryant-civil-war

And for every Kobe-first fan who’ll stump on his behalf, who shares his impatience, who feels the organization “owes” him better than a swan song of mediocrity, there’s a Lakers-first fan who feels rebuilding the roster twice around Kobe between 2008 and 2013 equals a “debt” paid, especially after he wasn’t inclined to take an extension sacrificing “highest paid player in the NBA” status for increased cap flexibility so that ASAP rebuild would be easier. Frankly, there are Lakers fans who will blame Kobe if the rebuild takes an extended period of time.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Battle Tested20 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:46 pm

I don't think there is a civil war brewing between Lakers fans and Kobe fans. There has always been some disconnect there, but I think this is the media just trying to start something again.

However, it is going to be very curious to see what the FO does this off-season because depending on what happens we will surely get our answer if we are in win now mode or patiently waiting for 2015 and 2016 free agents.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby kenzo on Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:59 pm

^ i can't even imagine a "win now" mode :man5:
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:28 pm

Aonex wrote:Not sure if this has been posted anywhere, but interesting read:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/67116/los-angeles-lakers-kobe-bryant-civil-war

And for every Kobe-first fan who’ll stump on his behalf, who shares his impatience, who feels the organization “owes” him better than a swan song of mediocrity, there’s a Lakers-first fan who feels rebuilding the roster twice around Kobe between 2008 and 2013 equals a “debt” paid, especially after he wasn’t inclined to take an extension sacrificing “highest paid player in the NBA” status for increased cap flexibility so that ASAP rebuild would be easier. Frankly, there are Lakers fans who will blame Kobe if the rebuild takes an extended period of time.


There has always been a civil war between Laker fans and Kobe fans. I remember an article where it stated some Laker fans boo'd Kobe at the championship parade. The media loves to be messy involving anything Lakers related.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby therealdeal on Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:06 pm

Battle Tested20 wrote:I don't think there is a civil war brewing between Lakers fans and Kobe fans. There has always been some disconnect there, but I think this is the media just trying to start something again.

However, it is going to be very curious to see what the FO does this off-season because depending on what happens we will surely get our answer if we are in win now mode or patiently waiting for 2015 and 2016 free agents.

Like always, I'm not sure the two are mutually exclusive. I think if the Lakers can hit home runs this summer they'll swing away, but if not then it's the waiting game. I trust Mitch to make the right moves.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby jlkr on Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:10 pm

About Laker fans vs Kobe fans, meh... Kobe fans in that context, that is, those who are proud to take the other side of that "vs" against the Lakers, are bandwagoners. Once Kobe goes, ya think they'll hang through the latest version of the Dark Years?

Kobe is an HOF'er, no doubt, but he is also *much* closer to the end of his career than to the beginning. After he's gone the team will still be there. The name on the front of the jersey always takes precedence over the name on the back. Always. It can be no other way. Players are there, then they get old and they are gone. But the team will always be there.

Kobe was rewarded for his years of service with this contract. I have no problem with that. Heck it isn't the first time the team has done something like that. But don't feel too bad for the team, they definitely get something out of it too: Kobe puts butts in seats while the FO figures out how to put a contending team together.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Savory Griddles on Wed Apr 02, 2014 8:45 am

therealdeal wrote:
Battle Tested20 wrote:I don't think there is a civil war brewing between Lakers fans and Kobe fans. There has always been some disconnect there, but I think this is the media just trying to start something again.

However, it is going to be very curious to see what the FO does this off-season because depending on what happens we will surely get our answer if we are in win now mode or patiently waiting for 2015 and 2016 free agents.

Like always, I'm not sure the two are mutually exclusive. I think if the Lakers can hit home runs this summer they'll swing away, but if not then it's the waiting game. I trust Mitch to make the right moves.


I used to, but this new CBA is pretty brutal and completely changes the way the Lakers operate and do business. Mitch proved to be an excellent GM for the Lakers under the old CBA. This is almost a completely different job description.

I also actually hope the Lakers don't swing away, even if the home run potential is there. It's that constant swinging that got us into this pickle.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Barnstable on Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:27 am

Savory Griddles wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
Battle Tested20 wrote:I don't think there is a civil war brewing between Lakers fans and Kobe fans. There has always been some disconnect there, but I think this is the media just trying to start something again.

However, it is going to be very curious to see what the FO does this off-season because depending on what happens we will surely get our answer if we are in win now mode or patiently waiting for 2015 and 2016 free agents.

Like always, I'm not sure the two are mutually exclusive. I think if the Lakers can hit home runs this summer they'll swing away, but if not then it's the waiting game. I trust Mitch to make the right moves.


I used to, but this new CBA is pretty brutal and completely changes the way the Lakers operate and do business. Mitch proved to be an excellent GM for the Lakers under the old CBA. This is almost a completely different job description.

I also actually hope the Lakers don't swing away, even if the home run potential is there. It's that constant swinging that got us into this pickle.

But every team is going to be going through it with the new CBA. The Lakers just so happen to be dealing with it earlier than some other teams. And we actually have a bit of an advantage over nearly everyone else with the TW contract.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby therealdeal on Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:34 am

^ Exactly. This team has made it clear that money isn't important if we have a winning team. These restrictions only matter in signing free agents. That's why I think the Lakers should get their hands on guys through trades/drafting. Bird Rights are going to be a premium in this CBA if we're willing to spend and God knows this team will spend if we have the right pieces.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Savory Griddles on Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:39 am

^^^
I'm starting to wonder how much of an advantage that TW deal is, not because it's not a lot of money, but because of an article I read about the Buss kids keeping the Lakers with the inheritance tax. There was some fear that the Buss family was going to have to sell the team because of how much money they would have to pay in taxes. I'm wondering if that TW deal gives us a leg up, or if a giant chunk of it has already been spent to keep the Lakers in the family fold.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby therealdeal on Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:44 am

I really don't see it being that much of an issue. With Dr. Buss being sick as long as he was and these being wealthy, prudent people financially I don't think they'd have let that tax hit come as a big surprise. I'm sure they saved up accordingly and made it through that without too much trouble. It probably bit into their profits a bit, but I can't imagine it made a big enough hole to really stop them from spending now.

Case in point: they spent last season with a massive payroll and a starting five that was paid astronomically well while preparing for their father's death. Wouldn't it make sense to start cutting payroll much sooner if they were that worried about it?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby LakersN4 on Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:50 am

Savory Griddles wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
Battle Tested20 wrote:I don't think there is a civil war brewing between Lakers fans and Kobe fans. There has always been some disconnect there, but I think this is the media just trying to start something again.

However, it is going to be very curious to see what the FO does this off-season because depending on what happens we will surely get our answer if we are in win now mode or patiently waiting for 2015 and 2016 free agents.

Like always, I'm not sure the two are mutually exclusive. I think if the Lakers can hit home runs this summer they'll swing away, but if not then it's the waiting game. I trust Mitch to make the right moves.


I used to, but this new CBA is pretty brutal and completely changes the way the Lakers operate and do business. Mitch proved to be an excellent GM for the Lakers under the old CBA. This is almost a completely different job description.

I also actually hope the Lakers don't swing away, even if the home run potential is there. It's that constant swinging that got us into this pickle.

What's the alternative? Building through the draft when we've already traded away our '15 & '17 first rounders? We have to swing for the fences or we're destined for atleast half a decade of being a bad team. If we just sit on our hands from now until 2016 & make no major improvements what are the chances of Durant coming walking through that door? Next to 0.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Savory Griddles on Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:46 am

therealdeal wrote:I really don't see it being that much of an issue. With Dr. Buss being sick as long as he was and these being wealthy, prudent people financially I don't think they'd have let that tax hit come as a big surprise. I'm sure they saved up accordingly and made it through that without too much trouble. It probably bit into their profits a bit, but I can't imagine it made a big enough hole to really stop them from spending now.

Case in point: they spent last season with a massive payroll and a starting five that was paid astronomically well while preparing for their father's death. Wouldn't it make sense to start cutting payroll much sooner if they were that worried about it?


I don't really know the answer to that. I don't think any of us know what the ramifications of the inheritance tax were on them.

As to LakersN4, I'm not saying we try to collect second rounders and develop them for 8 years. I just don't want to see us go after Melo for 5 years along with like Gortat for 4 years 35 million. That's what I call swinging for the fences. Taking a shot at something that will likely not be enough, but destroying our future on the off chance Kobe reverts back to pre-injury Kobe; Duncan, Durant, Lebron, Griffin and HArden ALL get hurt for the playoffs; and we get Wiggins who turns into T-Mac 2.0 is foolish. I don't consider a Kyle Lowry signing this offseason, a solid draft pick, and signing Love in 2015 swinging for the fences, but it puts us back in contention sooner.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby therealdeal on Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:05 am

Savory Griddles wrote:
therealdeal wrote:I really don't see it being that much of an issue. With Dr. Buss being sick as long as he was and these being wealthy, prudent people financially I don't think they'd have let that tax hit come as a big surprise. I'm sure they saved up accordingly and made it through that without too much trouble. It probably bit into their profits a bit, but I can't imagine it made a big enough hole to really stop them from spending now.

Case in point: they spent last season with a massive payroll and a starting five that was paid astronomically well while preparing for their father's death. Wouldn't it make sense to start cutting payroll much sooner if they were that worried about it?


I don't really know the answer to that. I don't think any of us know what the ramifications of the inheritance tax were on them.

No we don't. All I know is that a prudent person with moderate wealth can prepare for a death they see coming. I'd think a person of great wealth could prepare for a death they see coming as well, probably more effectively. I'm not saying the tax hit didn't hurt at all, I'm saying Dr. Buss was dying for a long time. I find it hard to believe there wasn't something built up to help fight that tax hit.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby LakersN4 on Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:24 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Savory Griddles wrote:
therealdeal wrote:I really don't see it being that much of an issue. With Dr. Buss being sick as long as he was and these being wealthy, prudent people financially I don't think they'd have let that tax hit come as a big surprise. I'm sure they saved up accordingly and made it through that without too much trouble. It probably bit into their profits a bit, but I can't imagine it made a big enough hole to really stop them from spending now.

Case in point: they spent last season with a massive payroll and a starting five that was paid astronomically well while preparing for their father's death. Wouldn't it make sense to start cutting payroll much sooner if they were that worried about it?


I don't really know the answer to that. I don't think any of us know what the ramifications of the inheritance tax were on them.

No we don't. All I know is that a prudent person with moderate wealth can prepare for a death they see coming. I'd think a person of great wealth could prepare for a death they see coming as well, probably more effectively. I'm not saying the tax hit didn't hurt at all, I'm saying Dr. Buss was dying for a long time. I find it hard to believe there wasn't something built up to help fight that tax hit.

Yeah actually I remember reading an article that said he has been pre-paying towards it for several years now.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:36 pm

They don't seem to be struggling on the money part.....

Lakers building new practice facility
Updated: April 2, 2014, 1:05 AM ET
By Dave McMenamin | ESPNLosAngeles.com
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LOS ANGELES -- The Los Angeles Lakers' rebuilding efforts includes plans for actual construction.

The Lakers entered into an agreement to purchase a five-acre lot of land just minutes from its current practice facility in El Segundo, Calif., in order to build a brand new training center, the team announced Tuesday.

There was no ground-breaking time frame or expected completion date for the facility released however, as the purchase is "subject to various conditions, including the approval by the City of El Segundo of the proposed use of the property by the Lakers," according to the team.

The new building would also be home to the Lakers' D-League affiliate, the Los Angeles D-Fenders, as well as the business operations offices for both teams.

The Lakers currently practice at the Toyota Sports Center, a site they have used since 2000. The Lakers will own their new practice facility, whereas they are tenants at Toyota Sports Center, which is owned by the Anschutz Entertainment Group (AEG). AEG also owns Staples Center as well as approximately 30 percent of the Lakers franchise.

"Our present facility, that's been our home for 14 years, has served us well," Lakers general manager Mitch Kupchak said. "I think 14 years ago our facility was state of the art and we've made improvements over the years and now it looks like we have an opportunity to improve and design a free-standing facility that will once again be state of the art and a place that we can call home for many years to come." Outside of the benefit of having a more spacious, independent practice facility, the Lakers' primary motivation for the move would be to build a place that will provide an asset when it comes to attracting free agents, according to a team source.

The Toyota Sports Center is also the practice home for the Los Angeles Kings of the NHL. It only includes one full-sized basketball court. The standard in the NBA as new practice facilities have been opened up across the league has become two full-sized courts, much like the Los Angeles Clippers' $60 million practice facility which opened in 2008.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby XXIV on Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:51 pm

LakersN4 wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
Savory Griddles wrote:
therealdeal wrote:I really don't see it being that much of an issue. With Dr. Buss being sick as long as he was and these being wealthy, prudent people financially I don't think they'd have let that tax hit come as a big surprise. I'm sure they saved up accordingly and made it through that without too much trouble. It probably bit into their profits a bit, but I can't imagine it made a big enough hole to really stop them from spending now.

Case in point: they spent last season with a massive payroll and a starting five that was paid astronomically well while preparing for their father's death. Wouldn't it make sense to start cutting payroll much sooner if they were that worried about it?


I don't really know the answer to that. I don't think any of us know what the ramifications of the inheritance tax were on them.

No we don't. All I know is that a prudent person with moderate wealth can prepare for a death they see coming. I'd think a person of great wealth could prepare for a death they see coming as well, probably more effectively. I'm not saying the tax hit didn't hurt at all, I'm saying Dr. Buss was dying for a long time. I find it hard to believe there wasn't something built up to help fight that tax hit.

Yeah actually I remember reading an article that said he has been pre-paying towards it for several years now.


I also remember reading something along the lines that he wanted to make sure when he died his kids didn't have to worry about the tax.

I want to say that he sold AEG the shares they currently own just for this reason, but I can't say for certain if that was even the case. Does anyone know how/when AEG acquired their shares?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby jlkr on Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:28 pm

XXIV wrote:
LakersN4 wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
Savory Griddles wrote:
therealdeal wrote:I really don't see it being that much of an issue. With Dr. Buss being sick as long as he was and these being wealthy, prudent people financially I don't think they'd have let that tax hit come as a big surprise. I'm sure they saved up accordingly and made it through that without too much trouble. It probably bit into their profits a bit, but I can't imagine it made a big enough hole to really stop them from spending now.

Case in point: they spent last season with a massive payroll and a starting five that was paid astronomically well while preparing for their father's death. Wouldn't it make sense to start cutting payroll much sooner if they were that worried about it?


I don't really know the answer to that. I don't think any of us know what the ramifications of the inheritance tax were on them.

No we don't. All I know is that a prudent person with moderate wealth can prepare for a death they see coming. I'd think a person of great wealth could prepare for a death they see coming as well, probably more effectively. I'm not saying the tax hit didn't hurt at all, I'm saying Dr. Buss was dying for a long time. I find it hard to believe there wasn't something built up to help fight that tax hit.

Yeah actually I remember reading an article that said he has been pre-paying towards it for several years now.


I also remember reading something along the lines that he wanted to make sure when he died his kids didn't have to worry about the tax.

I want to say that he sold AEG the shares they currently own just for this reason, but I can't say for certain if that was even the case. Does anyone know how/when AEG acquired their shares?

You must have missed that when it was happening. Well it was long ago, so let me explain.

Yes, estate taxes were the reason Jerry Buss sold a 25% share of the team to AEG. He did that at least 10 or so years ago as he was already having health issues and he wanted to ensure that his kids could keep the Lakers after he was gone. Have to remember most of the family's wealth is tied up in the team which would have had to be sold to pay the estate taxes if he hadn't done that. The old man protected against that in two ways: selling an interest in the team and with the TWC contract. The TWC contract was crucial in that it provided the collateral for any line of credit the kids might have needed to pay the estate taxes and keep operating the team.

As an aside, the O'Malley family was facing the same issue with their ownership of the Dodgers. Peter O'Malley co-owned the team with his sister, Terry Seidler. But while O'Malley was ready to retire from running the team, the subsequent generations of their families were not all that interested in stepping up to succeed him, hence O'Malley and his sister sold the team and put the proceeds into a trust that was to benefit their heirs. Now it must be said that O'Malley did participate in a group that put in a bid to buy the Dodgers from Frank McCourt before withdrawing that bid and subsequently led that team to buy the San Diego Padres. But here, O'Malley is only part of an ownership team, he didn't commit all he has.

Hope this little digression provided an education.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby XXIV on Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:42 pm

Thanks for the explanation jlkr. :bow:
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby therealdeal on Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:32 am

jlkr wrote:
Yes, estate taxes were the reason Jerry Buss sold a 25% share of the team to AEG. He did that at least 10 or so years ago as he was already having health issues and he wanted to ensure that his kids could keep the Lakers after he was gone. Have to remember most of the family's wealth is tied up in the team which would have had to be sold to pay the estate taxes if he hadn't done that. The old man protected against that in two ways: selling an interest in the team and with the TWC contract. The TWC contract was crucial in that it provided the collateral for any line of credit the kids might have needed to pay the estate taxes and keep operating the team.

Good point. I still think the contract gives more leeway than we think it does, but the fact is that the estate taxes aren't holding back the team from spending the way people thought it would. They'll spend the money they have available right now if we have a winner to put out there. If we don't, we're not going to spend. At least I hope that's the plan.

Kobe's contract is more problematic in the short term than any taxes. BUT the Lakers also preserved a perfect amount of cap space when his contract does come off the books. Make no mistake, the Lakers plans all revolve around Durant at this point.

Because Kobe's contract is so large, even if we end up filling out the roster and going a little above the cap in the next two years, when Kobe expires that's a HUGE lift off of our cap space just in time for Durant to come available. Even if we somehow go 7 million over the cap by then, Durant can get a max contract to fill Kobe's shoes. At that point who knows if Kobe will even be playing anymore, but we'll have the room we need (and hopefully the pieces) to try to lure Durant to Los Angeles.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby trodgers on Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:24 am

jlkr wrote:About Laker fans vs Kobe fans, meh... Kobe fans in that context, that is, those who are proud to take the other side of that "vs" against the Lakers, are bandwagoners. Once Kobe goes, ya think they'll hang through the latest version of the Dark Years?

Just thought I'd check in and let it be known I'm a bandwagoner.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby juninho on Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:04 am

Dave McMenamin ‏@mcten
Kobe won't have his exit interview w/ the rest of the team next week. He'll meet w/ Mitch at a later date. That means no press conference
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Battle Tested20 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:29 pm

juninho wrote:
Dave McMenamin ‏@mcten
Kobe won't have his exit interview w/ the rest of the team next week. He'll meet w/ Mitch at a later date. That means no press conference

Not surprised at all. This is what he did last year. I could also see this coming because when he had his press conference with the media a few weeks ago regarding him being out the rest of the year his explanations and answers to things he's doing over the summer led me to believe that that was sort of his exit interview
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Rooscooter on Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:01 pm

trodgers wrote:
jlkr wrote:About Laker fans vs Kobe fans, meh... Kobe fans in that context, that is, those who are proud to take the other side of that "vs" against the Lakers, are bandwagoners. Once Kobe goes, ya think they'll hang through the latest version of the Dark Years?

Just thought I'd check in and let it be known I'm a bandwagoner.


You hangin it up as a Laker fan when Kobe retires?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby trodgers on Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:18 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
trodgers wrote:
jlkr wrote:About Laker fans vs Kobe fans, meh... Kobe fans in that context, that is, those who are proud to take the other side of that "vs" against the Lakers, are bandwagoners. Once Kobe goes, ya think they'll hang through the latest version of the Dark Years?

Just thought I'd check in and let it be known I'm a bandwagoner.


You hangin it up as a Laker fan when Kobe retires?

Don't know. My wife would sure appreciate it. There are some players I root for other than Kobe, but I think the only one I'd watch games for is Bynum (and who knows if he'll play again). I didn't watch much basketball from 1991 (Magic retires) to 1995 (Jordan returns). Jordan got me interested in bball again.
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