Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Magic Skywalker on Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:47 am

It won't work with every player. But the players that agree to that idea... those are players I want. Those are players with confidence, those are players who think "I can win a championship here and become a face of the franchise." If a guy accepts that idea, it's definitely because he trusts him and the Lakers can win.

A guy who doesn't, well, he definitely doesn't trust himself and/or the franchise enough. He's thinking "who guarantees me they'll pay me later?" or "what if we DON'T win?" or "if they just go and trade me?".

I cannot say I can't understand the mentality of the second case; actually, I think it's pretty natural. Most people will react that way, and they have good reasons. But if we manage to fish a guy who thinks like the first case, then we might have a really great guy in our hands.

Well, that's my way of seeing this, at least.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:54 am

^ Definitely.

In fact I think that mentality doesn't really agree with today's generation all that much. Today's generation is more about instant gratification (hello Dwight Howard).

But I think if there's case like Carmelo/LeBron or maybe more realistically Love in the near future, that could really make them think twice. Once the Lakers fill their cap and are over the top, they've proven they'll pay for a winner. So go win the games, bring home the hardware, and then you get paid more in LA than you would anywhere else. You get your legacy deal, you get your endorsement deals, etc. etc. LA has a ton of money to offer, you just have to earn it.

Personally, I love that attitude. If I were Love or any other high profile player coming free this summer or next summer I'd call LA first. All the Lakers have to do is build something that's attractive enough before the summer of 2015. That's a tall order, but if they can do it then I can see their plan working out. Draft well this summer, try to nab a guy like Deng or something, and have a season where Kobe doesn't get hurt and miss 60 games. If we can get to the 8th seed in the West and push a team, then I think someone looks at us and takes that leap.

Got to get things on the right track though. Coach, good draft, get moving in the right direction.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby denimPortugal on Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:00 pm

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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Savory Griddles on Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:06 pm

So people here think a player would take less now in order to get paid later if they bring the rings? Who's gonna give up millions to MAYBE get compensated later if they win? That's really neat in theory, but Kobe was taken care of to the maximum amount allowed during the entire time he was here. It seems like fantasy land to me. I sure as hell wouldn't sacrifice a dime if I was in my prime on the chance that I get overpaid later in my career because I provided rings. What if I blow out my knee the second year into my contract and never come close to winning anything? What if I'm never surrounded by teammates? It makes me no less a "winner" to want to get paid what I deserve, when I deserve it.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby kblo247 on Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:17 pm

Not to the max, Kobe chose to not become a fa like McGrady and Orlando before the 3 peat, and he took less than he should. He was under compensated then and has been for his whole career. Guys like Melo and Bronnwould be under compensated here as well off sheer name value,just facts
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:46 pm

Savory Griddles wrote:So people here think a player would take less now in order to get paid later if they bring the rings? Who's gonna give up millions to MAYBE get compensated later if they win? That's really neat in theory, but Kobe was taken care of to the maximum amount allowed during the entire time he was here. It seems like fantasy land to me. I sure as hell wouldn't sacrifice a dime if I was in my prime on the chance that I get overpaid later in my career because I provided rings. What if I blow out my knee the second year into my contract and never come close to winning anything? What if I'm never surrounded by teammates? It makes me no less a "winner" to want to get paid what I deserve, when I deserve it.

Like I said, the idea isn't for everybody.

Then again Miami did it. San Antonio did it. And they didn't have the same guarantee that the Lakers do, so maybe it's just you who is so cynical.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Punk-101 on Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:50 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Savory Griddles wrote:So people here think a player would take less now in order to get paid later if they bring the rings? Who's gonna give up millions to MAYBE get compensated later if they win? That's really neat in theory, but Kobe was taken care of to the maximum amount allowed during the entire time he was here. It seems like fantasy land to me. I sure as hell wouldn't sacrifice a dime if I was in my prime on the chance that I get overpaid later in my career because I provided rings. What if I blow out my knee the second year into my contract and never come close to winning anything? What if I'm never surrounded by teammates? It makes me no less a "winner" to want to get paid what I deserve, when I deserve it.

Like I said, the idea isn't for everybody.

Then again Miami did it. San Antonio did it. And they didn't have the same guarantee that the Lakers do, so maybe it's just you who is so cynical.

I think the idea of a player taking less up front is pretty wishful. But, I think your argument is extremely valid in terms of a player giving up that extra last year by signing as a FA rather than staying with his team to get that 5th year.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:00 pm

Punk-101 wrote:I think the idea of a player taking less up front is pretty wishful. But, I think your argument is extremely valid in terms of a player giving up that extra last year by signing as a FA rather than staying with his team to get that 5th year.

The idea would be to do what the Miami Heat did: tell a guy to take just under market value to get another guy just under market value. Recreate the Heat system with the evidence/guarantee that if you win the rings we won't ask you to do it again.

But of course the main reason is NOT the Heat reason, it's the one you pointed out. Someone from another team coming here knows now that they get that money back at the end of their deal if they do as well as they should (getting a max contract). Kevin Love knows now that the Lakers will pay him back that 20 million on the 5th year of the deal once the times comes for it. As long as they're successful of course.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Savory Griddles on Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:03 pm

I don't think I'm being cynical. What Punk is saying I can see. That extra year is only lost if you start sucking Otherwise it's not that much. And the Miami paycuts weren't that significant. Because of how much Kobe has taken up, if we wanted Bron and Melo for example, they'd have to take significant paycuts even with a stretched Nash. Lebron is making 20 next season and Melo is supposed to make 23. With cap holds, Nash's contract (stretched) etc., they would have to opt out of a contract and each take around 15-16 million if the cap is at 63. That's taking 4 and 7 million dollar cuts respectively from what they have a signed contract for ALREADY.

I don't think I'm being cynical, I'm just not being extremely, EXTREMELY optimistic. :man12:
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby LakersN4 on Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:44 pm

Savory Griddles wrote:I don't think I'm being cynical. What Punk is saying I can see. That extra year is only lost if you start sucking Otherwise it's not that much. And the Miami paycuts weren't that significant. Because of how much Kobe has taken up, if we wanted Bron and Melo for example, they'd have to take significant paycuts even with a stretched Nash. Lebron is making 20 next season and Melo is supposed to make 23. With cap holds, Nash's contract (stretched) etc., they would have to opt out of a contract and each take around 15-16 million if the cap is at 63. That's taking 4 and 7 million dollar cuts respectively from what they have a signed contract for ALREADY.

I don't think I'm being cynical, I'm just not being extremely, EXTREMELY optimistic. :man12:

We could give them around 18M each if we dump Nash with the 7th for a future 1st.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:07 pm

Savory Griddles wrote:I don't think I'm being cynical. What Punk is saying I can see. That extra year is only lost if you start sucking Otherwise it's not that much. And the Miami paycuts weren't that significant. Because of how much Kobe has taken up, if we wanted Bron and Melo for example, they'd have to take significant paycuts even with a stretched Nash. Lebron is making 20 next season and Melo is supposed to make 23. With cap holds, Nash's contract (stretched) etc., they would have to opt out of a contract and each take around 15-16 million if the cap is at 63. That's taking 4 and 7 million dollar cuts respectively from what they have a signed contract for ALREADY.

I don't think I'm being cynical, I'm just not being extremely, EXTREMELY optimistic. :man12:

If we found a way to dump Nash (package him with our pick) then we're talking about them getting about 18.4 million dollars. That's almost exactly a 4 million dollar pay cut. About 16 million over the life of the contract. Is it hefty? Sure. But it would also be an absolutely intriguing team and they'd make most of that up in endorsements anyway.

Am I being optimistic? Of course. I'm not saying it's going to happen. I'm also not saying we'd be targeting those players. A pay cut for Love would be somewhere in the range of 15-16 million dollars a year instead of just over 17. Is it far fetched to think he'd take that kind of pay cut? Not really. Not when he's only 26 with a lot of great years left in him presumably.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby D.B. Cooper on Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:45 pm

How about no Melo.

We just need 2 stars and role players ala Kobe/Shaq Kobe/Gasol days. I feel like 3 or more stars doesn't really work.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Kobe8Fan on Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:27 pm

D.B. Cooper wrote:How about no Melo.

We just need 2 stars and role players ala Kobe/Shaq Kobe/Gasol days. I feel like 3 or more stars doesn't really work.

Having a 3rd star works. Bulls had Horace and Dennis Rodman. 80's Lakers had James Worthy. 3peat Lakers had Horace and Glen Rice. '10 Lakers had Metta.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby D.B. Cooper on Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:12 pm

To me those are role players like Trevor, Odom and Shannon.

I guess because there's only so much basketball to go around and the whole fill the roster with all stars gives me nightmares of Bryant, Howard, Nash and Gasol.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:15 pm

D.B. Cooper wrote:To me those are role players like Trevor, Odom and Shannon.

I guess because there's only so much basketball to go around and the whole fill the roster with all stars gives me nightmares of Bryant, Howard, Nash and Gasol.

Those four not working is an absolute anomaly. Most great players find ways to be great together.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Battle Tested20 on Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:10 pm

Just some cool plays from Kobe over the years. All of these I am sure we have seen before, but damn are they sweet



Wade in his prime :man10: Kobe wasn't going to have any of it on that possession.



(shakes head) look how far out Kobe jumps to dunk it



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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby trodgers on Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:05 am

Kobe put Wade's handles to the test...and they were found lacking.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Savory Griddles on Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:33 am

therealdeal wrote:
Savory Griddles wrote:I don't think I'm being cynical. What Punk is saying I can see. That extra year is only lost if you start sucking Otherwise it's not that much. And the Miami paycuts weren't that significant. Because of how much Kobe has taken up, if we wanted Bron and Melo for example, they'd have to take significant paycuts even with a stretched Nash. Lebron is making 20 next season and Melo is supposed to make 23. With cap holds, Nash's contract (stretched) etc., they would have to opt out of a contract and each take around 15-16 million if the cap is at 63. That's taking 4 and 7 million dollar cuts respectively from what they have a signed contract for ALREADY.

I don't think I'm being cynical, I'm just not being extremely, EXTREMELY optimistic. :man12:

If we found a way to dump Nash (package him with our pick) then we're talking about them getting about 18.4 million dollars. That's almost exactly a 4 million dollar pay cut. About 16 million over the life of the contract. Is it hefty? Sure. But it would also be an absolutely intriguing team and they'd make most of that up in endorsements anyway.

Am I being optimistic? Of course. I'm not saying it's going to happen. I'm also not saying we'd be targeting those players. A pay cut for Love would be somewhere in the range of 15-16 million dollars a year instead of just over 17. Is it far fetched to think he'd take that kind of pay cut? Not really. Not when he's only 26 with a lot of great years left in him presumably.


Here's my issue with the whole "We'll take care of you for services rendered." thing. Think about it as a long term strategy. What if we do convince two dudes to come here for less and tell them we'll make it up on the backend? Then when that backend time comes we would have two players with diminishing skills and gigantic Kobe-like contracts. Who is going to sign with us then? It's the whole borrow from tomorrow to pay someone today mentality. It's not a smart plan. Kobe got paid top dollar his entire career. He provided 5 rings, two of those rings as the primary player. But the Lakers provided the most they could under the CBA, the Laker brand which made his brand worth MILLIONS more...the Lakers didn't owe him this contract. All they did was potentially set a dangerous precedent.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Savory Griddles on Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:40 am

D.B. Cooper wrote:To me those are role players like Trevor, Odom and Shannon.

I guess because there's only so much basketball to go around and the whole fill the roster with all stars gives me nightmares of Bryant, Howard, Nash and Gasol.


Worthy was a role player? :man10:

I do agree with you to a point. Two superstars that work together perfectly is far better than 3 superstars who's games don't exactly mesh. Wade and Lebron were sort of redundant. Dwight and Pau both clog the lane. Shaq and Kobe worked because they complimented each other perfectly.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby therealdeal on Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:43 am

Savory Griddles wrote:Here's my issue with the whole "We'll take care of you for services rendered." thing. Think about it as a long term strategy. What if we do convince two dudes to come here for less and tell them we'll make it up on the backend? Then when that backend time comes we would have two players with diminishing skills and gigantic Kobe-like contracts. Who is going to sign with us then? It's the whole borrow from tomorrow to pay someone today mentality. It's not a smart plan. Kobe got paid top dollar his entire career. He provided 5 rings, two of those rings as the primary player. But the Lakers provided the most they could under the CBA, the Laker brand which made his brand worth MILLIONS more...the Lakers didn't owe him this contract. All they did was potentially set a dangerous precedent.

I completely disagree. Most teams don't get a ring ever. If we have a chance to get one, give the guys their money. If they earn us what Kobe has earned us, then why the hell wouldn't we pay them? They deserve every cent of it. Kobe deserves more money than this. He's earned it. He's either the greatest or second greatest Laker of all time.

Any free agent who comes here would need to provide us with a ring or two to get their legacy contract and at that point I'd be absolutely willing to give it to them.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Savory Griddles on Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:59 am

therealdeal wrote:
Savory Griddles wrote:Here's my issue with the whole "We'll take care of you for services rendered." thing. Think about it as a long term strategy. What if we do convince two dudes to come here for less and tell them we'll make it up on the backend? Then when that backend time comes we would have two players with diminishing skills and gigantic Kobe-like contracts. Who is going to sign with us then? It's the whole borrow from tomorrow to pay someone today mentality. It's not a smart plan. Kobe got paid top dollar his entire career. He provided 5 rings, two of those rings as the primary player. But the Lakers provided the most they could under the CBA, the Laker brand which made his brand worth MILLIONS more...the Lakers didn't owe him this contract. All they did was potentially set a dangerous precedent.

I completely disagree. Most teams don't get a ring ever. If we have a chance to get one, give the guys their money. If they earn us what Kobe has earned us, then why the hell wouldn't we pay them? They deserve every cent of it. Kobe deserves more money than this. He's earned it. He's either the greatest or second greatest Laker of all time.

Any free agent who comes here would need to provide us with a ring or two to get their legacy contract and at that point I'd be absolutely willing to give it to them.


I suppose I'm looking at it from an economics perspective. Borrowing from tomorrow to pay for today has never worked. And I cannot agree with you that Kobe deserves MORE than what he's getting. C'mon man. He didn't single handedly lead the Lakers to all these titles. Shaq was the main force behind the first 3 and the front office did a REMARKABLE job of rebuilding around him on the fly to get the second two. Kobe has been paid EXTREMELY well and has benefitted from the Laker brand.

Until the last 5-6 seasons when the internet and multimedia opportunities became so robust, to be a worldwide brand like Kobe you almost had to be in one of the major markets. Now you can be Durant or Lebron in smaller markets, but for the first 10 years of Kobe's career, LA, Chicago, NY were imperative to becoming a global icon. Believe me. Kobe has been compensated with money and opportunities, but also a roster that allowed him to win. Kobe as a one-man wrecking crew doesn't win rings. We saw that in the middle of the last decade. Kobe should be just as grateful to the Lakers for providing him with Shaq, Fox, Rice, Horry, Gasol, Odom, Fisher, and of course, 10 million a season for the Zen Master.

It just seems like some people think the Lakers owe everything to Kobe as if it was him and him alone that kept the Lakers relevant over the past 17 years. Dude had the most dominant center of the last 25 years leading him to three titles and then got arguable the most skilled big man in the game to play his Robin for the second two.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby laakers on Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:01 am

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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby trodgers on Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:06 am

From an economic perspective, what's Kobe worth to the Lakers? The answer seems to be: a lot.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:14 am

trodgers wrote:From an economic perspective, what's Kobe worth to the Lakers? The answer seems to be: a lot.


From a CBA perspective it's not 48 million over 2 years and that is what we are dealing with.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Postby therealdeal on Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:26 am

I'm going to break it up a little because I have a hard time focusing without doing it. So no offense meant or anything. :beer:
Savory Griddles wrote:I suppose I'm looking at it from an economics perspective. Borrowing from tomorrow to pay for today has never worked.

But this isn't economics. In economics we can't go get that future money. The U.S. is learning that right now obviously. As a team, the Lakers can pay these guys their money even after they've outlived their utility, but they'd be the ones sitting on 18 Championships and once those guys DO expire, it's over. We move on. I'm not saying we trade all our picks away in the future. It's about rewarding guys for giving us that type of legacy. Once they're gone, they retire and we do it again. Does that mean struggling for a bit while we deal with them on their older legs? Sure. But we're going to have to do that/rebuild no matter what. Might as well reward guys who gave their all for us. Think of it like tenure.
Savory Griddles wrote:And I cannot agree with you that Kobe deserves MORE than what he's getting.
Of COURSE he does. Are you serious? If there wasn't a cap on the NBA, these players would be getting FAR more than what they're getting. I'd guess Kobe made at least 3 times for the Lakers what he was paid last season. Just about every star player deserves more than what they're paid. LeBron right now is worth what Kobe got paid last year, maybe more. Kobe deserves every last cent he gets from us. What other player right off the top of your head could have given us as fans or the Lakers as an organization what Kobe gave to us? Five Championships. Seven trips to the Finals. Four All-Star MVPs. Two Finals MVPs. One regular season MVP. Countless broken records and highlights reel material. Just about constant relevance for 18 years. He's worth every single cent he gets paid.

Savory Griddles wrote:Until the last 5-6 seasons when the internet and multimedia opportunities became so robust, to be a worldwide brand like Kobe you almost had to be in one of the major markets. Now you can be Durant or Lebron in smaller markets, but for the first 10 years of Kobe's career, LA, Chicago, NY were imperative to becoming a global icon. Believe me. Kobe has been compensated with money and opportunities, but also a roster that allowed him to win. Kobe as a one-man wrecking crew doesn't win rings. We saw that in the middle of the last decade. Kobe should be just as grateful to the Lakers for providing him with Shaq, Fox, Rice, Horry, Gasol, Odom, Fisher, and of course, 10 million a season for the Zen Master.

I'm not saying he did it alone. I'm saying he deserves all the money he gets. So did everybody else involved for the same reasons I gave for Kobe: winning a ring is rare in and of itself. If you helped get us there, you deserve whatever you can get.

And by the way to be a true global icon you still need a major market. Kobe is bigger around the world than any other basketball player right now and he's not even the best player in the League anymore.
Savory Griddles wrote:It just seems like some people think the Lakers owe everything to Kobe as if it was him and him alone that kept the Lakers relevant over the past 17 years.

I didn't say everything, I said he deserves what he's getting. He owes us, sure. Winning goes both ways, but Kobe hasn't been paid close to the amount he actually deserves for the money he's brought to the Lakers.
Savory Griddles wrote:Dude had the most dominant center of the last 25 years leading him to three titles and then got arguable the most skilled big man in the game to play his Robin for the second two.
What's your point here? I'm not saying he did it alone. Nobody said that. Shaq deserved to get paid. Gasol GOT his contract and he deserved that too.
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