Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby SK8 on Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:40 pm

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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:06 pm

I love how ESPN isn't asking "How does Kobe look?" or "Will Kobe be the first to return back to his former glory"..... Nope they are all over the lets try to make drama in LA. Wonder if this was the golden child how the media would run with it...
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby Juronimo on Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:16 pm

They're stating the obvious, that damfony is a horrible coach.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby Tragic on Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:58 pm

dagger to my stomach
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby karacha on Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:20 pm

They are mostly right. I think Smith gets it: the biggest problem is the interior defense, and unfortunately that's Pau's job. Everything falls apart there.

Next, the coach has to actually coach. Yes, he has shown some flexibility and he makes nobodies look decent. Alright, that's good. But he needs to find a good place for Kobe, where he can be comfortable and give that necessary boost to the team. I mean, that's one of the legends of basketball, you have to be able to fit such a star player in, right? Not to mention that Kobe was trying hard, playing his scoring role well, and he was impressively effective. Did not take too many shots etc. Just settle on the roles for each and every player, manage Kobe's minutes, and for god's sake, play other bigs instead of Pau. Gasol obviously still thinks he's a star. He's not. He plays no D, and he shoots worse then Swaggy, whose job is to chuck difficult shots from the perimeters. That's acceptable for 6-7 SG/SF Swag, but not acceptable for the 7-1 star starter, who says he needs the ball in the post, yet shoots (poorly) from the perimeter. I honestly think Sacre is more effective than Pau right now. No joke.

And it's MDA's job to manage those tings. Roles and minutes.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:34 pm

PAu's complaints match Dwight's from last year. He has let the diva rub off on him.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby lukewaltonsdad on Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:49 pm

Kobe was more patient this game...he let more of the game come to him. He was much better. Also, played more off the ball allowing Blake to dictate the offense for the most part. Still no lift, but he'll get there...
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby nolQQkpass on Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:25 pm

yoki24 wrote:All dat ball movement and their offense rating without Kobe was still a pedestrian 19th in the league. They were 28th in free-throw rate, 25th in 2PT%, and bottom 3 in ORB%. But hey, the ball was moving!

Meanwhile, their offensive rating tonight (113.4) was amazing and among their best for the season.

And lol @ comparing Melo to a 5-time champion. What a joke.


your good at stats. maybe u can work for mike brown oneday..
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby CarFlagChris on Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:12 pm

MDA has to show that he can still coach a star.
Both Carmelo and Dwight definitively stated that he cannot.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby yoki24 on Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:34 pm

nolQQkpass wrote:
yoki24 wrote:All dat ball movement and their offense rating without Kobe was still a pedestrian 19th in the league. They were 28th in free-throw rate, 25th in 2PT%, and bottom 3 in ORB%. But hey, the ball was moving!

Meanwhile, their offensive rating tonight (113.4) was amazing and among their best for the season.

And lol @ comparing Melo to a 5-time champion. What a joke.


your good at stats. maybe u can work for mike brown oneday..

the stats don't lie.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby MC on Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:22 am

Rooscooter wrote:
The athletic aspect of playing defense is vastly overrated. Just because you can run and jump doesn't translate into defensive ability. In fact most of the historic great defensive teams are comprised of older and less athletic players.

What that should tell you is that knowing how to play defense is better than being able to dunk from the free throw line and that an actual scheme that is practiced is better than being able to run real fast…..

...... Don't confuse quick ineffective activity with slow ineffective activity….. they are equally ineffective.


Couldn't agree with this more. This is very true.

I do think however the rule changes, when hand checking was taken out of the game out in the perimeter, has really geared it towards athletic guys that can take advantage of the extra space to explode. Positioning, foot work and communication is more important than anything when it comes to truly being a good defensive team and/or individual defender in today's game. It's harder to use any type of physicality along the perimeter to compensate for a lack of positional knowledge, within the team concept, like you use to back in the hand checking years.

I know it was just an all-star game but last year when Bryant went on Lebron and went a little old school on him by hand checking and leaning on that hip.....Lebron was looking around at the refs to bail him out as Bryant made him feel a bit uncomfortable by not giving him that space to explode by...........it makes a huge difference. Could you imagine Jordan, who killed old school rules, had the space a defender has to give you now? ..... my goodness..... he could drop a lot on ya on a nightly basis lol.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:53 am

To say athleticism doesn't matter when it comes to defense is ridiculous. Why is Gasol a joke on D of late? Cause he's a slow moving, slow reacting, feet cemented to the ground player. Why was Nash always a joke on D? Another guy slow who couldn't keep guys in front of him. If you lack quick feet, good lateral movement and speed, you are in for a lot tougher battle than if you had some of these qualities. Artest wasn't the fastest guy ever but in his prime, he had very quick feet and great hands.

I agree that TEAM D is more reliant on cohesiveness and playing together as a unit but every great D unit had 1-3 great athletic players who anchored that D. You need it. Just look at the Jordan Bulls or LeBron Heat. They had tremendous athleticism and could suffocate you from end to end with their athleticism. Jordan, Pippen and Grant/Rodman or LeBron/Wade/Bosh. The 04 Pistons had Prince and Wallace. The 08 Celtics had Allen, KG (athletic and mobile as hell as a 4) and Rhondo. The 88 Pistons had Dumars, Rodman and Thomas.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:58 am

MC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
The athletic aspect of playing defense is vastly overrated. Just because you can run and jump doesn't translate into defensive ability. In fact most of the historic great defensive teams are comprised of older and less athletic players.

What that should tell you is that knowing how to play defense is better than being able to dunk from the free throw line and that an actual scheme that is practiced is better than being able to run real fast…..

...... Don't confuse quick ineffective activity with slow ineffective activity….. they are equally ineffective.


Couldn't agree with this more. This is very true.

I do think however the rule changes, when hand checking was taken out of the game out in the perimeter, has really geared it towards athletic guys that can take advantage of the extra space to explode. Positioning, foot work and communication is more important than anything when it comes to truly being a good defensive team and/or individual defender in today's game. It's harder to use any type of physicality along the perimeter to compensate for a lack of positional knowledge, within the team concept, like you use to back in the hand checking years.

I know it was just an all-star game but last year when Bryant went on Lebron and went a little old school on him by hand checking and leaning on that hip.....Lebron was looking around at the refs to bail him out as Bryant made him feel a bit uncomfortable by not giving him that space to explode by...........it makes a huge difference. Could you imagine Jordan, who killed old school rules, had the space a defender has to give you now? ..... my goodness..... he could drop a lot on ya on a nightly basis lol.


Good point about the physicality that was allowed back in the days which are not allowed today, which does favor the athletic players over the physical players. The Knicks of the mid 90's is a perfect example of this. That unit would not be nearly as effective today as they were back in the days cause of the rules changes. They had a lot of enforcers who played very physical.

And the way the late 80's Pistons fouled Jordan would get players suspended games in today's game when back in the day, it would just be 2 free throws.

And yeah, it would be insane watching MJ play in today's ultra soft game with no hand checking, no tough fouls. The league has become a joke in that respect. There is no such thing as a good, hard foul anymore. That's a part of the game.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:12 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:To say athleticism doesn't matter when it comes to defense is ridiculous.


If this is directed at me I would point out that what's ridiculous is that you are twisting what I wrote to suit your point and ignoring the facts of the great defensive team and are focusing on individual play.

Defense is a team approach. No one "Athletic Defender" can change that. As Laker fans we all should be the most aware in the league after last years team puked all over the floor defensively with what most here touted as the best defensive center in a generation or two…..

Individual stats, highlights, accolades mean squat in playing effective defense as a team. Athleticism does not translate to team defense. Wesley Johnson is a prime example of that. He's leading us in blocked shots and replays of great individual defensive performances (one possession a game or so). Everyone focuses on the "monster block" or the gambling steal while not seeing him turn his head…. lose his man…. gamble and lose…. rotate when it's not called for….. double team when it's not what is needed… etc. He's athletic,has made a few plays this year and gives great effort but he's no more effective in the team philosophy of defense than any of our other players currently.

It's an issue that starts at the top IMO. Coaching. Defense is a learned part of the game. Anyone can be a working part of a good team defensive scheme…… regardless of athleticism.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:35 am

Rooscooter wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:To say athleticism doesn't matter when it comes to defense is ridiculous.


If this is directed at me I would point out that what's ridiculous is that you are twisting what I wrote to suit your point and ignoring the facts of the great defensive team and are focusing on individual play.

Defense is a team approach. No one "Athletic Defender" can change that. As Laker fans we all should be the most aware in the league after last years team puked all over the floor defensively with what most here touted as the best defensive center in a generation or two…..

Individual stats, highlights, accolades mean squat in playing effective defense as a team. Athleticism does not translate to team defense. Wesley Johnson is a prime example of that. He's leading us in blocked shots and replays of great individual defensive performances (one possession a game or so). Everyone focuses on the "monster block" or the gambling steal while not seeing him turn his head…. lose his man…. gamble and lose…. rotate when it's not called for….. double team when it's not what is needed… etc. He's athletic,has made a few plays this year and gives great effort but he's no more effective in the team philosophy of defense than any of our other players currently.

It's an issue that starts at the top IMO. Coaching. Defense is a learned part of the game. Anyone can be a working part of a good team defensive scheme…… regardless of athleticism.


I get your points. And in my second paragraph, I clearly stated that when it comes to team D, cohesiveness as a unit is crucial. I was focusing more on individual D.

But look at Kobe. In his prime, he was a very good defender. But in recent years, he hasn't been. Why? Simple, he got older, slower and lost his natural quickness, lateral movement and ability to cover ground. It's not rocket science. For the 1-3 position, you need athleticism to be a very good defender. With the 4-5 position, size and length is more of a factor.

And as for Wesley, he has all the raw tools to be a lock down defender. But he does seem to lack basketball IQ at times as you stated. But the raw talent is there. It's just a matter of him putting the physical together with the mental. I would rather be Wesley Johnson with his natural gifts who can improve on his D rather than a slow guy who has solid smarts because a guy like Wesley has the much higher ceiling as a defender. You can't teach his athleticism. That's why he makes great defensive plays on athleticism alone. Even the smartest player (who lacks athleticism) in the world could not make the plays he can make.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby wcsoldier81 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:08 am

Team schemes , B-Ball IQ , footwork , foot speed and athleticism , all matter when it comes to D ... First and foremost , it's a team thing ... if players don't know what to do and aren't hold accountable for their mistakes, you can put 5 good athletes on the floor , the D won't be good

Highlights got a lot of people confused about what good D is .... I read Wes Johnson qualified a "very good defender" here while he really isn't .... he has the tools , has defensive flashes but he got lost a LOT , way too much to be called a very good defender
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby lakerfan2 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:33 am

We get it. Kobe's old. Not everyone on the team is going to be a defensive juggler-knot. However, Kobe's production significantly outweighs what he provides defensively.

Same can't be said for Pau coupled with MDA's poor approach to defense.

Most of our guys (this year) are pretty capable and athletic, yet continually get burned by guys like Dragic who get in the paint and score. Paint. Score. Paint. Score. Career night. I'm so tired of hearing that. We're continually getting scored on in the paint. Is it time for a zone? Perhaps, ask the players to go UNDER screens to cut off penetration instead of switching every time?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:20 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:But look at Kobe. In his prime, he was a very good defender. But in recent years, he hasn't been. Why? Simple, he got older, slower and lost his natural quickness, lateral movement and ability to cover ground. It's not rocket science. For the 1-3 position, you need athleticism to be a very good defender. With the 4-5 position, size and length is more of a factor.


I disagree that is "simply" because he's older and slower…...Bruce Bowen in his best day wasn't as athletic as Kobe is now (once he fully recovers)….. neither was Battier or Sefolosha or Afflalo or Bell.

They are all wings that defended fantastically both individually and understood the team concept. The difference? Their value to the team was on defense….. Kobe's value to the team in on offense. Kobe's biggest issue on that end of the floor has to do with minutes played….. he uses it to rest because he's playing 40 minutes a game in the last few years to carry the offensive load.

One thing I will agree with on Kobe is that he's never been in a system that emphasizes defense from the team perspective. Phil, at best, talked about defense but as we all know it wasn't what was practiced or emphasized much. Kobe was instructed to be a "roamer" on defense in those days….. that's just like the famed "Defensive Anchor" comments I hate…. essentially covering for lack of a concept and other players lack of learning to play defense. He still does that to this day and breaks down the team defense when he does.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby karacha on Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:30 am

^

I'll agree on all those guys except Bowen. Bowen had decent hops and was quite strong for his size/weight (around 200 lbs), so his athleticism was good. He just wasn't the type who penetrates and dunks the ball on the offensive end. That was never his game.

People sometimes think Meeks is not athletic because he shoots threes. That's not really true. Jodie is quite athletic, but he's not the type of player X Henry is, for example.
One of the reasons why Meeks (or Bowen before him) probably don't play that kind of game is that their dribbling ability is below average. Bowen could not dribble to save his life. But he moved well, and was crafty (and dirty as well). You need at least a decent combination of basketball athleticism (speed, hops, quickness) and strength to be a good defender. The rest is craft and desire, of course. But if you can't move laterally and don't have the strength to fight the screens etc, then forget it. Shane does that (and did it even better when he was younger) and he's not an amazing athlete.

Artest was amazing, but was never fast, and he never jumped high. But he had extremely quick hands and moved well laterally. Let's not even talk about his incredible strength he used to bully people. What I am saying is that one needs some physical tools to play defense, of course.

Here's the famous video of Bowen performing a kung-fu move on Wally:



I mean, that's pretty decent right there. Luke Walton was not able to leap like that, not even close.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:33 am

Rooscooter wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:But look at Kobe. In his prime, he was a very good defender. But in recent years, he hasn't been. Why? Simple, he got older, slower and lost his natural quickness, lateral movement and ability to cover ground. It's not rocket science. For the 1-3 position, you need athleticism to be a very good defender. With the 4-5 position, size and length is more of a factor.


I disagree that is "simply" because he's older and slower…...Bruce Bowen in his best day wasn't as athletic as Kobe is now (once he fully recovers)….. neither was Battier or Sefolosha or Afflalo or Bell.

They are all wings that defended fantastically both individually and understood the team concept. The difference? Their value to the team was on defense….. Kobe's value to the team in on offense. Kobe's biggest issue on that end of the floor has to do with minutes played….. he uses it to rest because he's playing 40 minutes a game in the last few years to carry the offensive load.

One thing I will agree with on Kobe is that he's never been in a system that emphasizes defense from the team perspective. Phil, at best, talked about defense but as we all know it wasn't what was practiced or emphasized much. Kobe was instructed to be a "roamer" on defense in those days….. that's just like the famed "Defensive Anchor" comments I hate…. essentially covering for lack of a concept and other players lack of learning to play defense. He still does that to this day and breaks down the team defense when he does.


Umm, Bruce Bowen in his best day was MUCH more athletic than Kobe right now. Kobe is a dead man walking right now. He's 35 and coming off an Achillies tear. That's like the worst injury you can come back from for an athlete because it robs you of your natural explosion.

All the guys you mentioned weren't athletic freaks but they were athletic enough. They were also very smart and savvy players with high IQs. Show me where I said basketball IQ, smarts, savvy, anticipation, playing within a team concept, etc. doesn't matter? I simply said that athleticism matters for defense.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby lakerfan2 on Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:41 am

I don't remember Bowen dunking on anybody ever. And you can't just use Bowen "in his best day". Last year, before the tear, he dunked on Wallace and Humphries, Josh Smith, CP3...and you're telling me he doesn't have the athleticism? Yes, he's coming back from his achilles injury, but it's only been TWO GAMES. Kobe said himself he'd still like to shed the weight to get lighter again, get back into GAME conditioning.

For Kobe's defense, it's all about his effort. He'll play defense on you if he wants to. Hate it or not, that's his mindset. If he doesn't respect your shot, he'll leave you open.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby karacha on Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:52 am

Kobe was often inconsistent on D, because he played it when he felt like playing it. Which was more often in his younger days.

But even in his last few years in the league, Kobe played some good D. On LeBron, during that all-star game, no less.

In the Olympics, he played great D, because he decided that was going to be his role, and let Melo and others score.

Kobe was a great athlete. Not quite Jordan or Vince level, but still... he was impressive. He's decent even now after the injury. He can leap, but he can't change direction well. Which I totally expected. I would be shocked if it was any different, frankly.

But I don't think Kobe is going to be our stopper in the next two years. No way. He should strictly focus on getting faster and stronger now, and scoring around 20 ppg. I think he can do that. Screw that "Kobe Nash" hybrid game. That's not Kobe. :man10:
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:58 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:But look at Kobe. In his prime, he was a very good defender. But in recent years, he hasn't been. Why? Simple, he got older, slower and lost his natural quickness, lateral movement and ability to cover ground. It's not rocket science. For the 1-3 position, you need athleticism to be a very good defender. With the 4-5 position, size and length is more of a factor.


I disagree that is "simply" because he's older and slower…...Bruce Bowen in his best day wasn't as athletic as Kobe is now (once he fully recovers)….. neither was Battier or Sefolosha or Afflalo or Bell.

They are all wings that defended fantastically both individually and understood the team concept. The difference? Their value to the team was on defense….. Kobe's value to the team in on offense. Kobe's biggest issue on that end of the floor has to do with minutes played….. he uses it to rest because he's playing 40 minutes a game in the last few years to carry the offensive load.

One thing I will agree with on Kobe is that he's never been in a system that emphasizes defense from the team perspective. Phil, at best, talked about defense but as we all know it wasn't what was practiced or emphasized much. Kobe was instructed to be a "roamer" on defense in those days….. that's just like the famed "Defensive Anchor" comments I hate…. essentially covering for lack of a concept and other players lack of learning to play defense. He still does that to this day and breaks down the team defense when he does.


Umm, Bruce Bowen in his best day was MUCH more athletic than Kobe right now. Kobe is a dead man walking right now. He's 35 and coming off an Achillies tear. That's like the worst injury you can come back from for an athlete because it robs you of your natural explosion.

All the guys you mentioned weren't athletic freaks but they were athletic enough. They were also very smart and savvy players with high IQs. Show me where I said basketball IQ, smarts, savvy, anticipation, playing within a team concept, etc. doesn't matter? I simply said that athleticism matters for defense.


"Simply"…… this is what you said….

Lets Go Lakers wrote:To say athleticism doesn't matter when it comes to defense is ridiculous.


in response to what I said…..

Rooscooter wrote:The athletic aspect of playing defense is vastly overrated.


Lets Go Lakers wrote:Show me where I said basketball IQ, smarts, savvy, anticipation, playing within a team concept, etc. doesn't matter?


In your last 3 posts responding to me either directly or indirectly you in fact didn't say it matter either…… except for the team concept thing.

What you did say that you were referencing "individual" defense rather than "team" defense. I don't really see that there is "individual" defense….. there are individual defensive plays and individual defensive stats but, as my coach used to tell me,…. there is no individual defense in basketball.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:35 pm

lakerfan2 wrote:I don't remember Bowen dunking on anybody ever. And you can't just use Bowen "in his best day". Last year, before the tear, he dunked on Wallace and Humphries, Josh Smith, CP3...and you're telling me he doesn't have the athleticism? Yes, he's coming back from his achilles injury, but it's only been TWO GAMES. Kobe said himself he'd still like to shed the weight to get lighter again, get back into GAME conditioning.

For Kobe's defense, it's all about his effort. He'll play defense on you if he wants to. Hate it or not, that's his mindset. If he doesn't respect your shot, he'll leave you open.


Kobe has 35 year old legs AND is coming off probably the worst injury you can have to your legs outside of blown knees. Sure he's good for an explosive play here and there but to constantly be able to run up and down the court like a 22 year old, those days are long gone. I don't know how old you are but i'm two years older than Kobe and have played basketball since I was a kid. So I know first hand how you lose a lot of your natural explosion and stamina in your legs as you get into your 30's. I can explode for a play or two, that's no problem. The problem is the ability to maintain your level of stamina and have the endurance to continue to run up and down the court without your legs feeling like jelly. There is no substitute for young legs. You can only train so much but natural, young energy is what it is.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: The Return-over

Postby Weezy on Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:48 pm

And just like that Blake is out and I see Kobe being forced to do more than he should have to. I fear further injury to him now.
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