Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:15 pm

I disagree wholeheartedly with the principle of Kobe vs teammates. It just sets up ridiculous assumptions: 1) Kobe is too ego-maniacal and selfish to look for his guys, when he obviously has proven otherwise in playing the facilitator role when Shaq was here all the way to the last 20 games before his recent scoring binge. A younger Kobe could be argued as a selfish player that doesn't trust his teammates, but this 34 year version is hardly that guy and normally makes the right basketball decision. I say normally since Kobe still has the utmost faith and confidence in himself and his abilities and you really can't fault a player for having that state of mind. Its really a gift and a curse, since Kobe has the ability to make a "30 ft shot"and believing that you can make it is half way in getting to make that shot in the first place....but in certain occurrences, should he take the shot? That's why its a gift and a curse, cause when he makes it, it enables him to play less restricted and then the shots fly and the percentages will eventually catch up. However, if he doesn't take the shot and hands it to his teammates who miss, then a fan may feel that Kobe is capable of taking all on himself to get back into a game, so why isn't he? Either way, I ALWAYS want Kobe to make the right basketball play, whether we're down 1 or 16, making the right play normally has the percentages in your favor.

That being said, 2) Kobe's teammates didn't show up, is yet another ridiculous assumption. He has more than proven talent on this roster. Long gone are the days where he had Tierre Brown, Chucky Atkins, Smush Parker and Kwame Brown. When it comes to scoring, you need rhythm and how does one get into a rhythm? Through repetition. If the right basketball play is made and a guy misses, I'll live with that, as long as there is a steady flow of making the right basketball play. You can't pass out of a double team and give your teammates a sample size of 3 attempts, before ignoring them and taking a shot against the double team. Kobe has more than capable teammates...but they need the touches/repetition to become effective.

Last night, we hardly ever went inside. Foul trouble was definitely a reason, but we had 40 whistles called in our favor compared to 24 called for the Thunder. So Kobe and any of his teammates not getting calls for going into the paint is a poor excuse. If the whistle ain't blowing, you still force the action...and that isn't by tossing up nearly 30 3balls. This team is losing cause we simply are playing the wrong way.

We always say that we need to become a better defensive team, but we hardly ever do the things on that side of the ball to become successful. On offense, we aren't playing playoff basketball and it may get you wins here and there in the regular season, but forgetaboutit in the postseason...we're one and done with that style.

This team has Kobe facilitating and then like that becoming a scoring assassin. Meanwhile Nash and Dwight become spectators...there's no consistency...no identity.....which means no legitimate title aspirations. It will take a miracle for this team to get it together and make a deep run. I would much rather start playing the right way, develop a familiarity with their roles and form an identity. If that gets us into the playoffs, then so be it....but once we're in, we're at least playing the right way. If we miss the playoffs, then again, we're playing the right way and can develop an identity over the offseason and training camp for next year. The most important thing is leaving this season healthy. The last thing this team needs is an injury that will take out a key cog next season for a good portion of the regular season.

Drop this notion that you need to do anything to get into the playoffs....I would much rather them play the right way and see where it takes them.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:18 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:When Nash hit that 3, we were down only 6 and had some momentum. That's when Kobe put on his ball hog hat and completely shot us out of the game. :bang:


Um as usual you are wrong....

We were down six and

Ron missed a 3, Nash missed a 3, Ron missed a layup and Twan missed a layup. As usual your Kobe hate, lack of actually watching the game and lack of BBall IQ shines through bright as day.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Scnottaken on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:33 pm

Vasashi17 wrote:Meanwhile Nash and Dwight become spectators...there's no consistency...no identity...

I believe this part is the point of contention. Is Kobe causing them to stop moving, or have they stopped moving off the ball and Kobe cannot get the "right" basketball move? Even if a teammate becomes a full-on ballhog, wouldn't the "right" basketball move be to move and try to get open?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:37 pm

Vasashi17 wrote:I disagree wholeheartedly with the principle of Kobe vs teammates. It just sets up ridiculous assumptions: 1) Kobe is too ego-maniacal and selfish to look for his guys, when he obviously has proven otherwise in playing the facilitator role when Shaq was here all the way to the last 20 games before his recent scoring binge. A younger Kobe could be argued as a selfish player that doesn't trust his teammates, but this 34 year version is hardly that guy and normally makes the right basketball decision. I say normally since Kobe still has the utmost faith and confidence in himself and his abilities and you really can't fault a player for having that state of mind. Its really a gift and a curse, since Kobe has the ability to make a "30 ft shot"and believing that you can make it is half way in getting to make that shot in the first place....but in certain occurrences, should he take the shot? That's why its a gift and a curse, cause when he makes it, it enables him to play less restricted and then the shots fly and the percentages will eventually catch up. However, if he doesn't take the shot and hands it to his teammates who miss, then a fan may feel that Kobe is capable of taking all on himself to get back into a game, so why isn't he? Either way, I ALWAYS want Kobe to make the right basketball play, whether we're down 1 or 16, making the right play normally has the percentages in your favor.

That being said, 2) Kobe's teammates didn't show up, is yet another ridiculous assumption. He has more than proven talent on this roster. Long gone are the days where he had Tierre Brown, Chucky Atkins, Smush Parker and Kwame Brown. When it comes to scoring, you need rhythm and how does one get into a rhythm? Through repetition. If the right basketball play is made and a guy misses, I'll live with that, as long as there is a steady flow of making the right basketball play. You can't pass out of a double team and give your teammates a sample size of 3 attempts, before ignoring them and taking a shot against the double team. Kobe has more than capable teammates...but they need the touches/repetition to become effective.

Last night, we hardly ever went inside. Foul trouble was definitely a reason, but we had 40 whistles called in our favor compared to 24 called for the Thunder. So Kobe and any of his teammates not getting calls for going into the paint is a poor excuse. If the whistle ain't blowing, you still force the action...and that isn't by tossing up nearly 30 3balls. This team is losing cause we simply are playing the wrong way.

We always say that we need to become a better defensive team, but we hardly ever do the things on that side of the ball to become successful. On offense, we aren't playing playoff basketball and it may get you wins here and there in the regular season, but forgetaboutit in the postseason...we're one and done with that style.

This team has Kobe facilitating and then like that becoming a scoring assassin. Meanwhile Nash and Dwight become spectators...there's no consistency...no identity.....which means no legitimate title aspirations. It will take a miracle for this team to get it together and make a deep run. I would much rather start playing the right way, develop a familiarity with their roles and form an identity. If that gets us into the playoffs, then so be it....but once we're in, we're at least playing the right way. If we miss the playoffs, then again, we're playing the right way and can develop an identity over the offseason and training camp for next year. The most important thing is leaving this season healthy. The last thing this team needs is an injury that will take out a key cog next season for a good portion of the regular season.

Drop this notion that you need to do anything to get into the playoffs....I would much rather them play the right way and see where it takes them.


You say you disagree with me but your post seems to back up what i was saying: you also question Kobe's basketball decision making at times. And we both agree that this is understandable to some extent because of his amazing scoring potential. In the end, we both want Kobe to make the right basketball decision because that's what helps the team the most.

And yeah, i also agree about the other stuff. About playing the right way. About finding an identity over just trying to get into the playoffs. We don't have an identity. Never had one.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:38 pm

Hard when your main core has only played 140 minutes or so together in a new system right?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:41 pm

Scott: True...and by design, you have Dwight actually clearing the paint alot for either a wing diving when either Nash or Kobe dribble drive or for either guard to finish when they hit the paint.

I understand that alot of this is on Dwight...and rightfully so, but ZERO attempts in the 2nd half from your post player...sadly that is by design.

Again, lets say all the pieces don't mesh together....don't we have enough talent on this roster to be above .500 this deep into the season? One thing is certain, we definitely are paying for that type of talent.

Every team faces injuries...lets see how the Spurs handle it with Parker out. We all see how Boston is handling it with Rondo out. Of course we have Gasol out...but we still have the motor that makes this engine go on this team and yet, we're getting routed by the top teams in the league.

Everybody thinks we were in this game....I see it differently. We made a good amount of lucky attempts from the land of 3...and we all know that saying. We lost by 17...and sadly that number could just have easily been far worse if we hit the 3 ball at a 35% clip.

The parts on this team may not mesh together...but I still sincerely believe they really haven't been utilized the right way. Till that happens, I don't think this team is limited in talent. We have what it takes to be legitimate contenders, but the way they are being used is all wrong.

LGL: I firmly believe that Kobe does not need to carry this team and if he does, something is wrong in how we're utilizing the talent on this team.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:56 pm

Vasashi,

You get it. Agree with everything you said.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Scnottaken on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:56 pm

^I think alot of that has to do with the fact that (as someone mentioned a while back) many of the players on the team are used to being focal points on offense, and this is why many in the team have difficulty in moving off the ball. It will take the better part of a year, uninterrupted, to teach players something that was, up to this point, foreign to them. Some of the higher bbiq players have already tried, but old habits die hard.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:05 pm

Scnottaken wrote:
Vasashi17 wrote:Meanwhile Nash and Dwight become spectators...there's no consistency...no identity...

I believe this part is the point of contention. Is Kobe causing them to stop moving, or have they stopped moving off the ball and Kobe cannot get the "right" basketball move? Even if a teammate becomes a full-on ballhog, wouldn't the "right" basketball move be to move and try to get open?

Guys were moving great when Kobe was making the right decisions during his "facilitator" phase were they not? I mean when was this team at its most lethal this year? When Kobe elevated the play of everyone else by simply setting guys up with easy baskets because he drew so much attention and made the defense pay for paying so much attention to him. Sometimes Kobe does not take advantage of this fact. That's what a superstar does. Not only score but make the right plays in a manner that elevates the play of his teammates.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Scnottaken on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:28 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Scnottaken wrote:
Vasashi17 wrote:Meanwhile Nash and Dwight become spectators...there's no consistency...no identity...

I believe this part is the point of contention. Is Kobe causing them to stop moving, or have they stopped moving off the ball and Kobe cannot get the "right" basketball move? Even if a teammate becomes a full-on ballhog, wouldn't the "right" basketball move be to move and try to get open?

Guys were moving great when Kobe was making the right decisions during his "facilitator" phase were they not? I mean when was this team at its most lethal this year? When Kobe elevated the play of everyone else by simply setting guys up with easy baskets because he drew so much attention and made the defense pay for paying so much attention to him. Sometimes Kobe does not take advantage of this fact. That's what a superstar does. Not only score but make the right plays in a manner that elevates the play of his teammates.

But why do other players get a free pass if they stop moving? I've heard, too many times to count, that not receiving the ball is reason enough to stop moving off the ball. Your assertion is that the correct basketball play must always be made, regardless of the situation. Therefore, moving off-ball should always be expected, even during "Kobe ball". That's not the reality, though.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Coach Chris on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:34 pm

Gotta love the same old rhetoric after a loss, even one that most people expected to be a loss. One side, Kobe is a ball hog, he won't pass the ball. On the other, Kobe is the only one who tries, everyone else didn't show up. Just as ridiculous and unbelievable from one side as the other. But when the blame game is finished, we get back to poor transition defense and turnovers, two real culprits.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Tobias Funke on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:46 pm

Vasashi17 wrote:Scott: True...and by design, you have Dwight actually clearing the paint alot for either a wing diving when either Nash or Kobe dribble drive or for either guard to finish when they hit the paint.

I understand that alot of this is on Dwight...and rightfully so, but ZERO attempts in the 2nd half from your post player...sadly that is by design.

Again, lets say all the pieces don't mesh together....don't we have enough talent on this roster to be above .500 this deep into the season? One thing is certain, we definitely are paying for that type of talent.

Every team faces injuries...lets see how the Spurs handle it with Parker out. We all see how Boston is handling it with Rondo out. Of course we have Gasol out...but we still have the motor that makes this engine go on this team and yet, we're getting routed by the top teams in the league.

Everybody thinks we were in this game....I see it differently. We made a good amount of lucky attempts from the land of 3...and we all know that saying. We lost by 17...and sadly that number could just have easily been far worse if we hit the 3 ball at a 35% clip.

The parts on this team may not mesh together...but I still sincerely believe they really haven't been utilized the right way. Till that happens, I don't think this team is limited in talent. We have what it takes to be legitimate contenders, but the way they are being used is all wrong.

LGL: I firmly believe that Kobe does not need to carry this team and if he does, something is wrong in how we're utilizing the talent on this team.


The team would mesh quite well with the right philosophy. Top team? Probably not, they're still a (Im guessing Pau and Metta) trade away from having that potential. But we would be better if we could get some stops every once in a while. Its frustrating watching a team score 55 in a half and yet they're being blown out.

The offense can improve no doubt, but we really should take a step back and look at this. The Lakers had a serious drought to end the game, and yet they still put up 105 or whatever. If we have to score 115 just to not get blown out by a top team, then its not gonna work, because it shouldn't be that way.

We have a team where our three most skilled offensive players are in their 30s, they're all battling injuries and missing huge chunks of games , and our only young star is dealing with injuries/recovery as well and is, to put it kindly, not at his best offensively, and we're pretty much one of the worst teams in the league at making free throws and taking care of the ball. Yet we're still right there in the top 5 or whatever in PPG.

However we're doing it, we're scoring. With some minor but obvious moves we'd be even better. But does it matter much if you're putting up 110 against good teams but still getting blown out?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Chillbongo on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:25 pm

Coach Chris wrote:But when the blame game is finished, we get back to poor transition defense and turnovers, two real culprits.

And the third overarching truth that results -- we don't have a f***** offense, nor the personnel to run it.

I've said this since the beginning of the season....TURNOVERS are due to crappy offensive schemes. Poor transition D results from TURNOVERS as well as old, crappy personnel. Anyone notice a common denominator?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Tobias Funke on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:31 pm

Chillbongo wrote:
Coach Chris wrote:But when the blame game is finished, we get back to poor transition defense and turnovers, two real culprits.

And the third overarching truth that results -- we don't have a f***** offense, nor the personnel to run it.

I've said this since the beginning of the season....TURNOVERS are due to crappy offensive schemes. Poor transition D results from TURNOVERS as well as old, crappy personnel. Anyone notice a common denominator?


Remind me again what the payoff is for hiring the offensive mastermind that is MDA.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby charvin on Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:55 pm

We were playing stagnant offense with Brown, thus we needed moar offense! :man10:

Tobias Funke wrote:
Chillbongo wrote:
Coach Chris wrote:But when the blame game is finished, we get back to poor transition defense and turnovers, two real culprits.

And the third overarching truth that results -- we don't have a f***** offense, nor the personnel to run it.

I've said this since the beginning of the season....TURNOVERS are due to crappy offensive schemes. Poor transition D results from TURNOVERS as well as old, crappy personnel. Anyone notice a common denominator?


Remind me again what the payoff is for hiring the offensive mastermind that is MDA.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:16 pm

Glad to see people back to blaming Kobe when we lose and almost silent when we win with him playing the same way. When guys make their shots and are moving correctly Kobe is allowed to make plays and garner assists. But than often we see guy put out like last night where most of our players weren't themselves so Kobe has to take what's being given to him. I also hate throwing him the ball with the clock running down, it's damaging but still keeps happening.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby JGC on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:05 pm

Scnottaken wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Scnottaken wrote:
Vasashi17 wrote:Meanwhile Nash and Dwight become spectators...there's no consistency...no identity...

I believe this part is the point of contention. Is Kobe causing them to stop moving, or have they stopped moving off the ball and Kobe cannot get the "right" basketball move? Even if a teammate becomes a full-on ballhog, wouldn't the "right" basketball move be to move and try to get open?

Guys were moving great when Kobe was making the right decisions during his "facilitator" phase were they not? I mean when was this team at its most lethal this year? When Kobe elevated the play of everyone else by simply setting guys up with easy baskets because he drew so much attention and made the defense pay for paying so much attention to him. Sometimes Kobe does not take advantage of this fact. That's what a superstar does. Not only score but make the right plays in a manner that elevates the play of his teammates.

But why do other players get a free pass if they stop moving? I've heard, too many times to count, that not receiving the ball is reason enough to stop moving off the ball. Your assertion is that the correct basketball play must always be made, regardless of the situation. Therefore, moving off-ball should always be expected, even during "Kobe ball". That's not the reality, though.


You're right in that moving off-ball should always be expected, but doesn't always occur. But it should tell you something that year in and year out we seem to be the team, regardless of who comes here to play, that has the hardest time getting players to move off the ball.

Is it voo doo doo doo? Or something else?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Lakerjones on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:31 pm

Anyone know Kobe's status for the game? I'm sure he'll try to play but that arm looked completely dead last night. And stupid Perkins yanked it back on that rebound play - I'm sure that was intentional. Guy is dirty. Kobe literally looked like he was dragging that right arm around in the third and fourth. And he was wincing on the sideline when he was getting work on it. Doubt it feels a whole lot better one day later.

By the way, no love here for that insane 4 point play he made while getting his feet knocked out from underneath him by Sef and a bum shooting arm? That was pure warrior. He almost singlehandedly brought us back into striking distance after being down by 18.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Coach Chris on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:37 pm

Chillbongo wrote:
Coach Chris wrote:But when the blame game is finished, we get back to poor transition defense and turnovers, two real culprits.

And the third overarching truth that results -- we don't have a f***** offense, nor the personnel to run it.

I've said this since the beginning of the season....TURNOVERS are due to crappy offensive schemes. Poor transition D results from TURNOVERS as well as old, crappy personnel. Anyone notice a common denominator?


Most TOs I see are from poor play, Kobe bouncing it off his foot, Howard getting stripped, Nash getting in the air with no where to go. There is nothing wrong with this offense, they can score enough points to win, it is giving up 100+ so consistently that hurts.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Chillbongo on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:47 pm

Lakers average 15.4 TO per game, good for 27th in the league.

Kobe: 3.6 TO pg
Nash: 2.7 TO pg
Dwight: 3.0 TO pg

I don't know, I see forced passes from Nash, bail out passes from Kobe in a double team, and obviously Dwight's mishaps.

That's a lot for Kobe/Nash, but even with Dwight that is around 9 TO pg. There's another 6 to account for, and I really think it has to do with lack of offensive rhythm or a solid scheme.

As a coach, for a team that is old and slow, you really have to stick to an offensive system that minimizes turnovers. Especially in a league with young gunz who love to run. You would think D'Antoni knows this considering he loved to exploit TO's in PHX
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Coach Chris on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:54 pm

What offensive system doesn't include passing and dribbling? Because that is where most TOs come from, with the assorted Dwight Howard offensive fouls.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Juronimo on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:55 pm

Is Kobe playing?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Coach Chris on Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:56 pm

I am sure Kobe will play, it isn't like him to sit out unless he is really hurting. I am sure he has had the nerve worked on.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Juronimo on Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:08 pm

They said Kobe will play on Time Warner Cable. Dwight will play. Ron is a game time decision.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Never stop working (544)

Postby Scnottaken on Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:36 pm

JGC wrote:
Scnottaken wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Scnottaken wrote:
Vasashi17 wrote:Meanwhile Nash and Dwight become spectators...there's no consistency...no identity...

I believe this part is the point of contention. Is Kobe causing them to stop moving, or have they stopped moving off the ball and Kobe cannot get the "right" basketball move? Even if a teammate becomes a full-on ballhog, wouldn't the "right" basketball move be to move and try to get open?

Guys were moving great when Kobe was making the right decisions during his "facilitator" phase were they not? I mean when was this team at its most lethal this year? When Kobe elevated the play of everyone else by simply setting guys up with easy baskets because he drew so much attention and made the defense pay for paying so much attention to him. Sometimes Kobe does not take advantage of this fact. That's what a superstar does. Not only score but make the right plays in a manner that elevates the play of his teammates.

But why do other players get a free pass if they stop moving? I've heard, too many times to count, that not receiving the ball is reason enough to stop moving off the ball. Your assertion is that the correct basketball play must always be made, regardless of the situation. Therefore, moving off-ball should always be expected, even during "Kobe ball". That's not the reality, though.


You're right in that moving off-ball should always be expected, but doesn't always occur. But it should tell you something that year in and year out we seem to be the team, regardless of who comes here to play, that has the hardest time getting players to move off the ball.

Is it voo doo doo doo? Or something else?

I don't know about that. We have at least one or two good slashers every year. To answer your question in a somewhat debatable way, though, is that not every team has someone who can take all of the scoring duties on himself from anywhere. People tend to take the path of least resistance, the one in this case being to let someone else score. That's getting a bit off topic, though. I was merely questioning why Kobe was constantly criticized for not making the right basketball play when others are just as culpable.
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