Kobe Bryant Discussion:#3 All Time!

Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby lakerfansd on Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:30 am

We have to play every regular season game like it's game 7 of a playoff series just to get into the playoffs. Unfortunately our starters are going to have to play big minutes. With Pau playing great I would hope we can run the offense through him in the post and give Kobe at least some rest during these games.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby therealdeal on Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:21 pm

Lakerjones wrote:
therealdeal wrote:1. Kobe is playing too much.
2. If we want to win games, we have no choice.
3. This is partly because Kobe is asking for it and partly because MDA doesn't have the balls to sit him and rely on Duhon.

Look, in the Memphis game as soon as Kobe sat, we had NO ONE capable of running the offense. Blake couldn't handle it and Nash is hurt. When Nash comes back, I fully expect Kobe to get more rest, but that's on Steve.

This is painful to watch, but I imagine watching Atlas hold up the world wouldn't be easy either.


^^ This all the way. And it's exacerbated when you have to play good teams like Memphis. Look how little room there is for error. We only won by 2 points, and we were one foul call away from having to slug it out in overtime. Imagine how tired Kobe would have been after 5 more straight minutes.

And Kobe is doing all this with bone spurs in his ankle. I don't know how much he's going to have left in the tank for the first round if we make it. I guess it depends on when Nash can get back and help with some minutes. We are really living on the edge here. I wish we had used our injury exception on some veteran who could have at least given us a few minutes a game.

Yeah, even though Nash wasn't doing a ton of ball handling even when he WAS healthy, whenever he comes back he'll have to pick some slack. We NEED another ball handler out there. Kobe just cannot do this forever. Especially against the good teams.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:51 pm

Yeah, I really worry about it too. Kobe is giving literally everything every night, and he admitted in an interview last week that he's exhausted. It's sad that we have so many great starters on our team, and we still need him to play brilliantly every night just to win.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby XXIV on Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:16 pm

V.V.V.V.V. wrote:Yeah, I really worry about it too. Kobe is giving literally everything every night, and he admitted in an interview last week that he's exhausted. It's sad that we have so many great starters on our team, and we still need him to play brilliantly every night just to win.


Having a starting SF/backup SF would do wonders as well.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby nthydro on Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:42 pm

Whether you love Kobe or hate him, you still have to respect the man. The dedication he devotes to his craft is something everyone of us can be inspired by.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby JGC on Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:42 am

trodgers wrote:
JGC wrote:
trodgers wrote:JGC, if I can make one observation about something you wrote - you're much more often "on your way" to the forum when things go bad, in particular for Kobe, than you are when things go well for Kobe. It's an observation that has been made by more than a dozen posters.


I think that's probably a fair observation. However, attributing why I do that is where the mistake is made. It's a mistake (and one that is often made) to assume that the motivation is a deep rooted hate for Kobe Bryant. If that were the case, I'd take every opportunity to bag on him, not just losses! When the team plays the way I think they should, there's just less to say for me other than 'keep it up'. When they don't, there's a lot more to say about my opinions on what they should do to get back on track. My motivations in coming here are to talk about the Lakers TEAM, not specifically to wave pom-poms at the mention of any particular player's name.

You're probably making the same mistake you're accusing others of here.


What mistake is that? That for some of the others, the motivation is a deep rooted love for Kobe Bryant? But, more than a dozen posters have pointed that out so it must be true! Seriously though, our point is clear on this one I think. What might seem like hate or love at times may not necessarily be, regardless of whether 12 or more posters conclude so.

trodgers wrote:
JGC wrote:Since I firmly believe that Kobe has, by a long mile, more impact than any other player on the team, it would only make sense then for me to comment about Kobe's play. It wouldn't make much sense for me to come in during losses and talk about what Robert Sacre should work on while in D-League.

I'm not sure whether you're trying to be satirical here or whether you think that the only things to talk about are how Kobe shafted the team and Robert Sacre's performance. Regardless of what you really believe, if you're interested in knowing why people read you in a certain way it's because you come off as incredibly disingenuous in these sorts of exchange.


Well, I wasn't trying to be satirical. I was simply using an extreme example to prove a point. But as you go up the proverbial food chain (starting with say, Sacre all the way up to Kobe) I think there is just a natural tendency for ALL posters, regardless of their motivations for posting, to talk more about the players that are higher in the pecking order so to speak. I don't believe that posters talk about all players on the team equally but that doesn't necessarily mean they love or hate those players, it just means they're talking the most about the players that they think matter the most.

And let's not kid ourselves here. If it was purely about sounding satirical/sarcastic, then there would be a number of posters on BOTH sides of the equation that were perceived to be disingenuous by those same people. Have you seen some of the responses in here to Kobe criticisms?? I don't see anyone (including mods in particular) suggesting to those who sarcastically respond to Kobe criticisms (and it is done on a regular basis mind you) that they come off as disingenuous. So what is it REALLY about then? Hmm.

trodgers wrote:
JGC wrote:I think the #1 determining factor for this team's success is the play of Kobe Bryant. He should get a greater share of the credit when we are successful. But IMO, he should also get the greater share of the blame when we fail.

Maybe that's fine as a general principle, but we have Dwight Howard on our team, and it's clear that his performance at the FT line and on D can be game changers. And even if we look at Kobe's usage rate and say that he consumes 30% of the team's possessions, that means that he is both more responsible than any other player individually (on average) and far less responsible than other factors combined.


And that's why I don't think Kobe (or any single player) should ever get ALL of the credit or blame. You're right. There are other players on the team whose play can be game changers. That's why putting all of those other game changers in a position to succeed is so important, right?

trodgers wrote:
JGC wrote:Whether Kobe Bryant plays on this team or not, the chances are that I'm going to post here more often after losses simply because there is more to discuss. My brother and I always call each other after a tough loss. We rarely discuss a 10 point victory over the Raptors though. It's not because we hate to see the Lakers win, it's because we hate to see the Lakers lose.

There's always something to discuss. Simply to assume as a general principle that there is more to discuss after a loss seems not just false but utterly indefensible.
[/quote]

Well, I didn't assume it as a general principle. I was talking specifically about me. For me, there is more to discuss when we don't play the way I think we should. And most of the time, when we lose, we don't play the way I think we should. Sometimes, we do play the way I think we should and we still lose, and so for me there isn't much to say other than, we played a better team today. On the flip side, there are games where we win, but we don't play the way I want them to, and I'll still be in here whining and moaning about it! Haha.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:36 am

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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby trodgers on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:40 am

The mistake lies in ignoring this fact: That reading values and motivations off actions is difficult. You say that others misread you, then you speculate about what their motivation might be (and commit the same mistake in the process - supposing that your ability to read values and motivations from actions is good). (The "dozen posters" quote governs how many people have noticed a correlation between your activity on the forums and Losses.)

Your conspiracy theory regarding moderators and those who tend to support Kobe is interesting. You've expressed bewilderment previously about how tenure plays into these situations. Here's one obvious way: it speaks to whether we (as mods) should issue a verbal warning in a public post or via PM. We trust that long time members who are largely rule-abiding get the benefit of the doubt and can get quickly back on topic, so we PM. So just because you don't see unofficial warnings (or actual warnings), that doesn't mean they don't happen. I've actually demonstrated how this is true in the past (to you, via PM). I've told you about people I've given multiple official warnings to, people your comments here would seem to suggest that I have an alliance with.

"General principle" could refer to a class of humans (say, CL Members), or to a general principle guiding an individual's behavior. I meant the latter.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:50 am

So the topic is Kobe's playing too much.....

Duh....

The obvious answer to this it to Start Ebanks and bring Kobe off the bench for the rest of the season.... saving him for the playoffs as this HOF All Star team has secured the number one spot and home court advantage throughout the playoff.......... Oh.... wait....
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby Vasashi17 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:38 am

^^^Well played Roos.

See here's my dilemma. I understand the crowd that wants us to get into the playoffs at any cost, cause once there, anything can happen. The problem is that with the way this team has been playing all year, that "anything" will most likely be a 1st round exodus.

On the flip side, you want the team playing the right way and with the right rotations, so that once they make it in, they have the right approach to advancing in a 7 game series.

That being said, playing Kobe an egregious amount of minutes marginally helps us in getting to the playoffs, but once there, will it get us to the 2nd round of the playoffs? The initial playoff schedule is favorable in that, the games are well spaced out to ensure maximal TV ratings....but playing Kobe entire games on a bum ankle doesn't give us a great chance in winning a title. It may result in getting to the playoffs and possibly getting to the second round...but its highly suspect and incredibly irresponsible.

I would much rather encourage a responsible approach and in doing so giving Kobe the appropriate rest for the long haul. If that means that we don't make it into the sweet 16, then so be it....we're not good enough to seriously contend for a title this year and we move on. But if we do make it in, then we did it by playing the right way and by playing the right rotations. From that point, you can only build on that and try to shock the world....but the point is, that it didn't take a Herculean effort by Kobe to get us there. We did it the right (normal) way and from there, its anybody's ball game.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby OX1947 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:42 am

Vasashi17 wrote:^^^Well played Roos.

See here's my dilemma. I understand the crowd that wants us to get into the playoffs at any cost, cause once there, anything can happen. The problem is that with the way this team has been playing all year, that "anything" will most likely be a 1st round exodus.

On the flip side, you want the team playing the right way and with the right rotations, so that once they make it in, they have the right approach to advancing in a 7 game series.

That being said, playing Kobe an egregious amount of minutes marginally helps us in getting to the playoffs, but once there, will it get us to the 2nd round of the playoffs? The initial playoff schedule is favorable in that, the games are well spaced out to ensure maximal TV ratings....but playing Kobe entire games on a bum ankle doesn't give us a great chance in winning a title. It may result in getting to the playoffs and possibly getting to the second round...but its highly suspect and incredibly irresponsible.

I would much rather encourage a responsible approach and in doing so giving Kobe the appropriate rest for the long haul. If that means that we don't make it into the sweet 16, then so be it....we're not good enough to seriously contend for a title this year and we move on. But if we do make it in, then we did it by playing the right way and by playing the right rotations. From that point, you can only build on that and try to shock the world....but the point is, that it didn't take a Herculean effort by Kobe to get us there. We did it the right (normal) way and from there, its anybody's ball game.


And that is something we wont know until they are in. If I had to choose, this is the only way to do it. Get in, and then worry about everything later. There are no back to backs in the playoffs and the Lakers are not leaving the west coast for 2 weeks to end the season. The drain wont be as bad. Plus Kobe plays half the game as an initiator so a lot of energy isnt spent.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:12 pm

We can't count on what to do in the playoffs until we are "actually" in the playoffs. Kobe is playing a lot that is for sure but truth be told he has to do so at the moment. At the moment the bone spurs keep him in for complete games. I, like everyone else, hope the other guys can pick it up to get Kobe some time off but from what we have seen this year it isn't likely.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby boquilla on Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:42 pm

kobe needs some rest
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby Ariza3 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:44 pm

way too tired. others have to step up and they havent. we need nash back. wish metta was back...step sweat wiper screwed us. he would step up
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby SK8 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:49 pm

Wait wait, is he not getting out of game because of his injury, or he just want to play 48 minutes because.....he just want it so bad?
The world will not end if he sit down at least 4 minutes per quarter, that is 16 minutes of rest, if that is not possible, than Mitch have some serious job to do this summer because playing 34 year old guy with 17 years behind him is not desperate, it's retarded.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby TIME on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:04 pm

It was sad for me to watch him spinning his wheels out there down 15 in the 4th trying to get the team some traction.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby Finwë on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:25 pm

Gotta give credit to the Clippers D on Kobe, they defended him as well as any team has this season. Trapped him on P&Rs, contested every shot, protected the rim, and tried to make other guys beat them.
During halftime I was concerned about freeing up Kobe in the 2nd half because I thought relying on our shooters wouldn't work out well if the game was close. They're too inconsistent and I knew the Clipps would just play Kobe, Pau and Dwight hard, protect the basket, rebound and take the occational open shots by Clark, Blake, Meeks and Tawn.
We never adjusted, Kobe had to work extremely hard for his points, and the fatigue from all these extra minutes didn't help his shooting. He was frequently doubled and trapped, and our guys couldn't hit open shots, so he wasn't even getting assists.
Tough game for him, but despite the bad shooting I don't think it was really his fault (part of it was), but lack of adjustments from the coach, who failed to free him up and get him some good looks in his spots, and seemingly pressumed the Clipps wouldn't adjust their pick and roll D and our shooters would keep hitting shots.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby SK8 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:27 pm

Mike Trudell ‏@LakersReporter
Kobe is the one wanting to play all 48 minutes, as he reiterated just now. "I feel fine." Not fatigued as he was after last game.


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That's the tough part for D'Antoni, who'd like to get Kobe rest here and there, but Bryant says he's not tired and wants to stay in.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby JSM on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:31 pm

^ If MDA truly believes that then I guess he also believes Bill Clinton really didn't have "sexual relations" with Monica and I have some ocean side property to sell him in Topeka.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby LTLakerFan on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:43 pm

Where's the usual crowd....you know who you are....I'm sure there is something in the game the way Kobe played that you would 2nd guess from your armchairs. What's that....didn't hit enough of his shots this game. You know what.... you're right ....you win again. Kobe should have done it differently.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby abeer3 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:45 pm

i want dantoni gone as much as anyone, but kobe playing 48 is on kobe. and quite frankly, he doesn't look any more sluggish in the 4th than in the 1st. it's not 2006. he wants to make the playoffs, and the team isn't going to get there by playing meeks or (please lord no) ebanks more. it is what it is.

all that said, i thought he played pretty poorly today. can't let caron butler get off on you. you know he lives for these games.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby trodgers on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:48 pm

Abeer: MDA is the coach. I'd show Kobe tape of himself. He'd agree that sitting a bit would be better. And if he didn't I'd still sit him.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby charvin on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:50 pm

Whipped. There's a reason they hired you as "coach" and not consultant. You have direct say over the minutes and who plays, not the players themselves.

JSM wrote:^ If MDA truly believes that then I guess he also believes Bill Clinton really didn't have "sexual relations" with Monica and I have some ocean side property to sell him in Topeka.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby abeer3 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:54 pm

mda is...sort of a coach.

and i guess i don't see the fatigue in kobe's game, meaning: within a given game. his first play today was chucking a pass at howard's feet in traffic, for example. then he missed some shots.

i'm not trying to bash kobe; i appreciate his effort and the fact that he may be the only guy left healthy who has a pair on this squad (nod to steve blake, who has a pair but little talent to augment said pair). still, he's not playing his best basketball from the opening tip. maybe that's about managing minutes season long, but maybe it's just about being old.

if it's about the former, again, i'm not sure when mda had this option this season. pop can rest duncan because the spurs reserves dominate everyone almost as much as the starters. not the case here. and yes, part of that is coaching, but part of that an organizational commitment to continuity and a winning system (something notably absent in the jim buss era).

ok, now i'm off topic. in short: kobe has to play this much because the team is bad and is trying to make the playoffs and any second he's not playing is a second that meeks is the top perimeter scoring threat.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby cthroatgtr on Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:36 pm

Well besides Kobe the whole team is running on E. That is why Howard wasn't securing the rebounds. MDA doesn't sub in someone else when there is an injury he just keeps shortening the rotation. Soon its going to be Kobe 1 on 5...

At this point I don't think you can honestly criticize Kobe...I mean he is basically the PG, SG and coach for this team and doing this in his 17th season. Would be nice to see some fire from some other guys as well. This year is the definition of MVP but you know they only vote best player on best team so its going to be Lebron 1, Durant 2 & Melo probably 3rd. I mean they really shouldn't even bother voting just go by record.
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