Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby JGC on Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:42 pm

trodgers wrote:The mistake lies in ignoring this fact: That reading values and motivations off actions is difficult. You say that others misread you, then you speculate about what their motivation might be (and commit the same mistake in the process - supposing that your ability to read values and motivations from actions is good). (The "dozen posters" quote governs how many people have noticed a correlation between your activity on the forums and Losses.)


Fair enough. Looks like there's a whole lot of misreading going on, on both sides of the fence. Fair?

trodgers wrote:Your conspiracy theory regarding moderators and those who tend to support Kobe is interesting. You've expressed bewilderment previously about how tenure plays into these situations. Here's one obvious way: it speaks to whether we (as mods) should issue a verbal warning in a public post or via PM. We trust that long time members who are largely rule-abiding get the benefit of the doubt and can get quickly back on topic, so we PM. So just because you don't see unofficial warnings (or actual warnings), that doesn't mean they don't happen. I've actually demonstrated how this is true in the past (to you, via PM). I've told you about people I've given multiple official warnings to, people your comments here would seem to suggest that I have an alliance with.


That's fine. (And again, fair). But just because I don't always profess my love for Kobe, doesn't mean he isn't my favorite player (he is, I'm just not much of the rah-rah type). So when people make the assertion that I go out of my way to bash Kobe or hate on him or whatever, it is entirely untrue. To your point, things aren't always as they might seem. Now that you know where my motivations lie, I would ask such commentary is then handled accordingly.

trodgers wrote:"General principle" could refer to a class of humans (say, CL Members), or to a general principle guiding an individual's behavior. I meant the latter.


Ok thank you for the clarification. I entirely disagree that it is "indefensible" for me to think that there is more to discuss when we don't play well. Whether it is indefensible or not, that's up to me decide if we're talking about why I post! Haha. Plus, if the "Optimism" thread and the "WMC" thread, which were started on the same day, had approximately the same level of participation but they don't. The WMC thread has over 3 times the volume of posts compared to the optimism thread over the same period of time. I know, I know, we can't make assumptions but at minimum it sure walks like a duck, no? But in either case, I am just telling you why I post. You are free of course to assume it is wrong or right or somewhere in between, but for me there is more to talk about both online and offline when we're trying to right the ship than when we've righted it.

I think this is a great discussion, but a part of me wishes you would have just PM'd me your theory on why people perceive me the way they do instead of posting in the thread because I feel like these posts are meaningless now in the context of Kobe. Mind PM'ing me your response so we can keep this conversation going but leave this thread for Kobe and his play, etc? (BTW, missed the game today, should I be glad? Numbers wise, we looked ok, so I'm guessing defense was the culprit today).
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby Finwë on Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:47 pm

^^ IMO it was 1) defensive rebounding, 2) pick and roll D, 3) missing a LOT of open shots in the 2nd half. 4) Clippers' D in the 2nd half on Kobe and on the bigs.
I don't know if you should be glad, it wasn't much fun, but I always prefer watching the games.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:01 pm

He is so tired. My goodness; he is giving it all he has on that basketball floor. Much respect.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby odom1year on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:06 pm

At this stage, if Kobe really wants staying in the game longer and winning more rings, he should act like Jabbar or Robinson, passing the torch to young and talent star, like D12 of our team. No matter how bad his FT is, please let him to be our 1st option. It's the only way to benefit Kobe, D12 and the franchise. Sweeping by Clippers is a good signal to prove this point. Time flies, 17 years. It's the time to let D12 to be the 1st option to step up in the new generation of NBA and LA.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby LTLakerFan on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:17 pm

odom1year wrote:At this stage, if Kobe really wants staying in the game longer and winning more rings, he should act like Jabbar or Robinson, passing the torch to young and talent star, like D12 of our team. No matter how bad his FT is, please let him to be our 1st option. It's the only way to benefit Kobe, D12 and the franchise. Sweeping by Clippers is a good signal to prove this point. Time flies, 17 years. It's the time to let D12 to be the 1st option to step up in the new generation of NBA and LA.


Pass the torch to Dwight? 1st option? Have you not been watching the incredible LIMIT to the number of options he can create for himself on offense??? What is your deal? He doesn't have the skills to be number one option. He has to be spoon fed for most of his touches. He is starting to improve and getting a little bit of his swag back but he still has like 3 or 4 moves and that is it, plus they hack the bleep out of him and usually he can't hit his throws. Good lord Dude!
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby The Rock on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:33 pm

Woo pass to Dwight :jam2:
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:49 pm

Odom1year dropping some of that sorely missed knowledge. Kobe needs to pass that torch because he can obviously no longer play at a high level enough to will teams to win. We all know that if Kobe would just pass the ball, shoot less than 13 times, have over 13 assist, play lock down defense, make sure all his teammates have Avian instead of Sparklettes water and just be a decoy we would probably be undefeated this season. Just play the "right" way Kobe that is all us knowledgeable fans want from you.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby Weezy on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:53 pm

Pass the torch to Dwight as a first option, oh man. :man10: Dwight can barely get a bucket without somebody throwing him a lob pass for a dunk, the guy is not a 1st option offensively, at least not if you want your team to "win rings". Kobe in his 17th season at age 34 being ridden into the ground is a better 1st option than Dwight on offense by MILES. A young talented star :man10: , yeah he's talented on the boards and on defense, but his offense relies on athleticism, he has zero touch and 2 post moves, could your agenda be any more clear odom1year? You haven't even been around lately as we've been winning and Kobe has been playing well, but we lose and bam here you are blaming Kobe. Get serious man, at least say we need to bring in LeBron or Durant to replace Kobe as a 1st option, while that's not happening its at least not laughable.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby lakersin4 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:20 pm

All jokes aside I think Dwight could be good enough by next year to become atleast 1B. He's improved so much so fast.. I really like what I'm seeing & hearing from him.. An offseason spent adding the right things to his game & he's scoring 24 PPG. Adding a jumper could do that as it would probably also impact his FT's.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby odom1year on Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:25 pm

LTLakerFan wrote:
odom1year wrote:At this stage, if Kobe really wants staying in the game longer and winning more rings, he should act like Jabbar or Robinson, passing the torch to young and talent star, like D12 of our team. No matter how bad his FT is, please let him to be our 1st option. It's the only way to benefit Kobe, D12 and the franchise. Sweeping by Clippers is a good signal to prove this point. Time flies, 17 years. It's the time to let D12 to be the 1st option to step up in the new generation of NBA and LA.


Pass the torch to Dwight? 1st option? Have you not been watching the incredible LIMIT to the number of options he can create for himself on offense??? What is your deal? He doesn't have the skills to be number one option. He has to be spoon fed for most of his touches. He is starting to improve and getting a little bit of his swag back but he still has like 3 or 4 moves and that is it, plus they hack the bleep out of him and usually he can't hit his throws. Good lord Dude!


Did you forget D12 bringing Magic into NBA Finals as 1st option in 09 ? I'm confident that he can do it again. Especially Kobe and pau are around with him.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby odom1year on Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:47 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:Odom1year dropping some of that sorely missed knowledge. Kobe needs to pass that torch because he can obviously no longer play at a high level enough to will teams to win. We all know that if Kobe would just pass the ball, shoot less than 13 times, have over 13 assist, play lock down defense, make sure all his teammates have Avian instead of Sparklettes water and just be a decoy we would probably be undefeated this season. Just play the "right" way Kobe that is all us knowledgeable fans want from you.


Kobe had some fantastic nights, but he was playing inefficient and inconsistent in both ends this year. I don't think he can play at high level with enough production anymore. In defensive end, he always gambles and misses his guy, open shots and easy penetration as a result. And we are just blaming big guys not defending and not rebounding. In offensive end, he confuses his teammates. Sometimes shooting at hell and sometimes assisting. Nash is very embarrassed here. Nash is our weakest point in defense. If you don't use him, we must bench him to save our winning chance. This year reminds me the feeling about Lakers in 1999. We had Rambis in coach and Rodman in PF, but we won't go too deep in playoffs. Because we are not playing and marching in RIGHT way.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby odom1year on Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:12 am

Weezy wrote:Pass the torch to Dwight as a first option, oh man. :man10: Dwight can barely get a bucket without somebody throwing him a lob pass for a dunk, the guy is not a 1st option offensively, at least not if you want your team to "win rings". Kobe in his 17th season at age 34 being ridden into the ground is a better 1st option than Dwight on offense by MILES. A young talented star :man10: , yeah he's talented on the boards and on defense, but his offense relies on athleticism, he has zero touch and 2 post moves, could your agenda be any more clear odom1year? You haven't even been around lately as we've been winning and Kobe has been playing well, but we lose and bam here you are blaming Kobe. Get serious man, at least say we need to bring in LeBron or Durant to replace Kobe as a 1st option, while that's not happening its at least not laughable.


Just keep saying D12 is no touch, zero offensive move and bad FT shooting, you never understand he is lack of opportunity to show his true color. He is the guy that going through Lebron's Cavs and Garnett's Bonston and bringing Magic into NBA Finals as 1st option. HE CAN PLAY AT 1ST OPTION. Laughable ? I just want Kobe and Lakers to have a brighter future in coming years. And I think the solution is Kobe doing Jabbar's role and passing the torch to Magic (D12) like in 80's. In harsh words, current Kobe can't compete with Lebron, Durant and even Paul. Sad but true.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby wallangong on Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:17 am

^ you just don't give up. Dwight as a no. 1 option? don't even bother referencing that Orlando team that made it to the Finals. Dwight was a beast but he was surrounded by shooters and he still didn't create his own shot.

people saying Dwight has no post moves are actually referring to what has been clear as day for years. even before the trade, everyone knew he had no offensive game. lack of opportunity? when you get stripped and brick FTs there's a very good reason you aren't getting opportunities.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby odom1year on Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:08 am

wallangong wrote:^ you just don't give up. Dwight as a no. 1 option? don't even bother referencing that Orlando team that made it to the Finals. Dwight was a beast but he was surrounded by shooters and he still didn't create his own shot.

people saying Dwight has no post moves are actually referring to what has been clear as day for years. even before the trade, everyone knew he had no offensive game. lack of opportunity? when you get stripped and brick FTs there's a very good reason you aren't getting opportunities.


I just can't get it. D12 is the best center in NBA and people here keep saying he even can't create his own shot. Come on !! He is not Ben Wallace. He was averaging 20 ppg and 10+ rpg in last 5 years. Only prime Duncan and Garnett were better than him. How come he has been that bad while playing along with Kobe ? Not lack of opportunity ? He got ZERO touches or shots in some 4th quarters. All-time great Wilt and Shaq should not be gotten opportunities too according to your standard.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby KBJelleyBean24 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:18 am

odom1year wrote:
wallangong wrote:^ you just don't give up. Dwight as a no. 1 option? don't even bother referencing that Orlando team that made it to the Finals. Dwight was a beast but he was surrounded by shooters and he still didn't create his own shot.

people saying Dwight has no post moves are actually referring to what has been clear as day for years. even before the trade, everyone knew he had no offensive game. lack of opportunity? when you get stripped and brick FTs there's a very good reason you aren't getting opportunities.


I just can't get it. D12 is the best center in NBA and people here keep saying he even can't create his own shot. Come on !! He is not Ben Wallace. He was averaging 20 ppg and 10+ rpg in last 5 years. Only prime Duncan and Garnett were better than him. How come he has been that bad while playing along with Kobe ? Not lack of opportunity ? He got ZERO touches or shots in some 4th quarters. All-time great Wilt and Shaq should not be gotten opportunities too according to your standard.

You can go to him once in a while in the post, but not often. Most of his points come off of rebounds, lobs, free throws, or when he gets deep position and dunks the ball/lays it up. He's got a few nice moves, but you can't run an offense through him like you can Pau, Kobe, or Nash. The year Orlando went to the Finals that you are referencing, Turkeyglue was basically the "Kobe" in that Magic offense. He was the one that created for himself and others, with Dwight getting his points the way I mentioned above, and Rashard Lewis their iso guy.
I should get an assist for that. It's an intentional pass to oneself, so it's an assist. That way people can't say all I do is shoot.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby trodgers on Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:46 am

Dwight Howard has no opportunity to show what he has?

9 seasons
25,000 career minutes
7700 career FGA
6400 career FTA
...just in the regular season

What have we missed?
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby wcsoldier81 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:49 am

Cool story to talk about passing the torch and offense 77 games in .... We suck because our D sucks , is it really dificult to get this ?
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby JGC on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:42 am

odom1year wrote:
wallangong wrote:^ you just don't give up. Dwight as a no. 1 option? don't even bother referencing that Orlando team that made it to the Finals. Dwight was a beast but he was surrounded by shooters and he still didn't create his own shot.

people saying Dwight has no post moves are actually referring to what has been clear as day for years. even before the trade, everyone knew he had no offensive game. lack of opportunity? when you get stripped and brick FTs there's a very good reason you aren't getting opportunities.


I just can't get it. D12 is the best center in NBA and people here keep saying he even can't create his own shot. Come on !! He is not Ben Wallace. He was averaging 20 ppg and 10+ rpg in last 5 years. Only prime Duncan and Garnett were better than him. How come he has been that bad while playing along with Kobe ? Not lack of opportunity ? He got ZERO touches or shots in some 4th quarters. All-time great Wilt and Shaq should not be gotten opportunities too according to your standard.


I think the only way you're going to be able to succeed, with Dwight as a primary option, is if you have a team that plays with great balance in terms of where they are getting their scoring from. So look at a team like Denver for instance. If Dwight is your #1 guy on a team like that where, as you go down the roster, there is not a difference of more than 2 FG between the players as you go down the list, then I think you might be able to be successful if Dwight is on the top of the food chain.

However, on a team like that Lakers where there is a clear cut pecking order with Kobe undisputedly on top, you can't put Dwight there. He's not good enough to create his own scoring opportunities. He's never even averaged 25 PPG. If you're going to be a #1 guy on a tiered structure like that, then you have to be able to have shown you can be a 25+ PPG type of guy and D12 hasn't done that. Doesn't mean I don't want him, because a) I'd like to see a more balanced team anyway (more LIKE Denver, not Denver exactly) and b) he can still be a fantastic #2 option.

Dwight was not going to exceed his ORL numbers coming in to this season. While playing along Kobe has a lot to do with it, when you add guys like Pau and Nash to the mix, plus MWP, it's not a recipe for elevating Dwight's individual contribution it is a detriment. But that was OK then because the idea was that everyone would suffer individually stats wise, for the greater benefit of the team and win games, but, that didn't happen this year.

Taking it back to Kobe for a moment ... to your point about him passing the torch so to speak, I think the one thing that has been made crystal clear this season, is that he really can't play with another ball dominant guard. Whether he should give up the ball more to a big, or a point guard, or whoever, I just don't think he is willing to do that. Might that change with age and as he continues to decline and at some later point accepts that he can't (or shouldn't) be as ball dominant as he currently is? Perhaps. But he clearly does not like playing off ball very much at all and if he can't trust in (or allow, rather) Steve Nash of all PGs to run the offense, then I think the hope/thought is a lost cause at this point in time. There is no evidence to suggest a point guard's game can thrive playing next to Kobe (in fact there is only speculation and evidence, a bad combo, to the contrary). They are going to have to want to play the Derek role essentially, and so our best bet to improve this team for next year, is to focus on SF and get someone that won't mind being in more of a role player role rather than someone who wants to take those shots.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby LTLakerFan on Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:42 am

Some on this forum will be throwing bar-be-cues celebrating Kobe's last day as a Laker. Finally be rid of that dominant player who says he just wants to win and will do whatever he can to achieve that. But who really and truly is only about winning if it makes him look good. They have seen through his charade. Flipping burgers and lots of beer served to herald the mediocrity to come. And normal recuperation times from injury from all, like normal players. Why have a guy making everyone else look bad?
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby Finwë on Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:34 am

wcsoldier81 wrote:Cool story to talk about passing the torch and offense 77 games in .... We suck because our D sucks , is it really dificult to get this ?

this so much.
I can't fathom why we keep talking about offense and who's the first option...
Not to mention the correlation between offensive balance (in terms of shot distribution) and defensive success has absolutely been DROWNED by this team as a concept. We've had games where Kobe is distributing like crazy and doing masterful playmaking and still our guys can't get a stop.. Too many games of good shot distribution and terrible D for offense to still be talked about.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby charvin on Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:58 am

This so much. There should be no reason to even talk about the offense on a Lakers squad. Focus on defense should come first, second, third, and last. I mean, the Grizzlies are somewhat offensively-challenged and great defensively, but I'd rather have that problem than worrying all-day about what's the pecking order on offense.

Finwë wrote:
wcsoldier81 wrote:Cool story to talk about passing the torch and offense 77 games in .... We suck because our D sucks , is it really dificult to get this ?

this so much.
I can't fathom why we keep talking about offense and who's the first option...
Not to mention the correlation between offensive balance (in terms of shot distribution) and defensive success has absolutely been DROWNED by this team as a concept. We've had games where Kobe is distributing like crazy and doing masterful playmaking and still our guys can't get a stop.. Too many games of good shot distribution and terrible D for offense to still be talked about.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby borri on Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:45 pm

odom1year wrote:At this stage, if Kobe really wants staying in the game longer and winning more rings, he should act like Jabbar or Robinson, passing the torch to young and talent star, like D12 of our team. No matter how bad his FT is, please let him to be our 1st option. It's the only way to benefit Kobe, D12 and the franchise. Sweeping by Clippers is a good signal to prove this point. Time flies, 17 years. It's the time to let D12 to be the 1st option to step up in the new generation of NBA and LA.


Dude....I am all for that. But then see what D12 does in the post.....eeeek. Yuck. Good lord.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:54 pm

trodgers wrote:Dwight Howard has no opportunity to show what he has?

9 seasons
25,000 career minutes
7700 career FGA
6400 career FTA
...just in the regular season

What have we missed?


The real truth is the game day box scores only show he has 9 fieldgoal attempts which is obviously not enough. WHo cares about reality when one can simply check those box scores?
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby OX1947 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:00 pm

Dwight almost won a title with 4 scrubs. Dwight can be a #1 option because his defense is the best in the league the last 5 years. As far as offense, he needs an offense that can cater to him. He needs the ball in spots where he can score. And those spots are limited. But when he is the focus, getting the ball to him in his spots would be a regular occurrence if its the focus of the offense.
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Re: Kobe Thread: Running on fumes

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:13 pm

OX1947 wrote:Dwight almost won a title with 4 scrubs. Dwight can be a #1 option because his defense is the best in the league the last 5 years. As far as offense, he needs an offense that can cater to him. He needs the ball in spots where he can score. And those spots are limited. But when he is the focus, getting the ball to him in his spots would be a regular occurrence if its the focus of the offense.

a couple points I think you missed....

-Dwight does not have the post moves, free throw shooting (when it counts or at anytime) nor the passing ability to be the #1 option.

- Those scrubs were slightly better than people think especially Hedu who was playing his best ball of his career.

- Dwight was able to dominate the offensive end because those scrubs hit outside shots all season. They were one of the top 3 point shooting teams in the league at the time.

- Jameer Nelson was not a scrub which allowed Dwight to work one v one.

He has potential for being the #1 option for sure but anyone who is solely dependent on getting the ball in the "right spot" means it can be easily defended. Shaq was a number one option because we could just give him the ball and he could make plays. Dwight has not shown, to date, that he is at that point yet.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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