Lakers Defense - Fixable?

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:Nah...It was the slow lazy center's fault.

so youwant that slow lazy center back?

He wasn't slow and lazy as much as his teammates were on help the helper situations. Same crap D12 deals with.

The fact that we are giving up more points per possession this season under the 3x DPOY center only further proves my point.

just cause this team still struggles on D doesn't mean he wasn't slow or lazy, I dont know how anyone but you would suggest Bynum wasn't slow, as far as lazy Howard probably starting get there too thanks to his other slow teammates.

I told everybody last season that our defense was bad mostly because our weakside help was awful.

The scheme we used where Bynum chased guards on the perimeter was awful too, but the problem with weakside help was still prevalent regardless of what scheme was being utilized.

I also said and pointed out that the difference between having D12 on the floor and Bynum on the floor would be hardly any difference at all.

So far, I've been correct in my assessment.

All you and the Bynum detractors have is your opinions. Without any substance to back it up.

revgen wrote:I told everybody last season that our defense was bad mostly because our weakside help was awful.

The scheme we used where Bynum chased guards on the perimeter was awful too, but the problem with weakside help was still prevalent regardless of what scheme was being utilized.

I also said and pointed out that the difference between having D12 on the floor and Bynum on the floor would be hardly any difference at all.

So far, I've been correct in my assessment.

All you and the Bynum detractors have is your opinions. Without any substance to back it up.

there is a BIG difference, one's playing the other is not. Thats good enough for me and I see you dont even want to bother attributing the worser defense because of the increase pace to team play but yea we know your agenda I'm sure you'd be running chaulkful of excuse for Bynum if he was still here while sitting in a suit thus far.

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:I told everybody last season that our defense was bad mostly because our weakside help was awful.

The scheme we used where Bynum chased guards on the perimeter was awful too, but the problem with weakside help was still prevalent regardless of what scheme was being utilized.

I also said and pointed out that the difference between having D12 on the floor and Bynum on the floor would be hardly any difference at all.

So far, I've been correct in my assessment.

All you and the Bynum detractors have is your opinions. Without any substance to back it up.

there is a BIG difference, one's playing the other is not. Thats good enough for me and I see you dont even want to bother attributing the worser defense because of the increase pace to team play but yea we know you're agenda I'm sure you'd be running chaulkful of excuse for Bynum if he was still here while sitting in a suit thus far.

I didn't say anything about who was playing and who wasn't. Only that the difference between the two bigs, when healthy, was hardly any different.

Of course it's good enough for you. You hate Bynum.

Points per possession accounts for pace. Nice try. No cigar.

And you don't have an anti-Bynum "agenda"? The difference between your "agenda" and your "excuses" and my "agenda" and "excuses" is that my points have been proven correct.

revgen wrote:

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:I told everybody last season that our defense was bad mostly because our weakside help was awful.

The scheme we used where Bynum chased guards on the perimeter was awful too, but the problem with weakside help was still prevalent regardless of what scheme was being utilized.

I also said and pointed out that the difference between having D12 on the floor and Bynum on the floor would be hardly any difference at all.

So far, I've been correct in my assessment.

All you and the Bynum detractors have is your opinions. Without any substance to back it up.

there is a BIG difference, one's playing the other is not. Thats good enough for me and I see you dont even want to bother attributing the worser defense because of the increase pace to team play but yea we know you're agenda I'm sure you'd be running chaulkful of excuse for Bynum if he was still here while sitting in a suit thus far.

I didn't say anything about who was playing and who wasn't. Only that the difference between the two bigs, when healthy, was hardly any different.

And you don't have an anti-Bynum "agenda"? The difference between your "agenda" and your "excuses" and my "agenda" and "excuses" is that my points have been proven correct.

your agenda or I'll call it excuse was the fact we didn't need to make a trade for howard because it wouldn't have made a difference, regardless of both being healthy which was the #1 case most of us didnt' want to deal with in Bynum case has all been proven correct. While stats prove your point it doesn't take in the fact that we play at an even higher pace but end of the day one's playing the other isn't and that ALONE takes presedence over any stats, any argument you may have had for keeping Bynum.

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:I told everybody last season that our defense was bad mostly because our weakside help was awful.

The scheme we used where Bynum chased guards on the perimeter was awful too, but the problem with weakside help was still prevalent regardless of what scheme was being utilized.

I also said and pointed out that the difference between having D12 on the floor and Bynum on the floor would be hardly any difference at all.

So far, I've been correct in my assessment.

All you and the Bynum detractors have is your opinions. Without any substance to back it up.

there is a BIG difference, one's playing the other is not. Thats good enough for me and I see you dont even want to bother attributing the worser defense because of the increase pace to team play but yea we know you're agenda I'm sure you'd be running chaulkful of excuse for Bynum if he was still here while sitting in a suit thus far.

I didn't say anything about who was playing and who wasn't. Only that the difference between the two bigs, when healthy, was hardly any different.

And you don't have an anti-Bynum "agenda"? The difference between your "agenda" and your "excuses" and my "agenda" and "excuses" is that my points have been proven correct.

your agenda or I'll call it excuse was the fact we didn't need to make a trade for howard because it wouldn't have made a difference, regardless of both being healthy which was the #1 case most of us didnt' want to deal with in Bynum case has all been proven correct. While stats prove your point it doesn't take in the fact that we play at an even higher pace but end of the day one's playing the other isn't and that ALONE takes presedence over any stats, any argument you may have had for keeping Bynum.

Ponts per possession accounts for pace bud.

Look who is making excuses now.

revgen wrote:Look who is making excuses now.

its ashame then I guess that we didn't keep Bynum, would've love to see the "reasons" as we'll call it that you would've came up with for him this season

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:Look who is making excuses now.

its ashame then I guess that we didn't keep Bynum, would've love to see the "reasons" as we'll call it that you would've came up with for him this season

It probably would have been the same "reasons" I came up with last season and the previous seasons. And the same "reasons" I've pointed out this season.

We don't help the helper. Period. Nobody rotates. Different center. Same old crap.

revgen wrote:

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:Look who is making excuses now.

its ashame then I guess that we didn't keep Bynum, would've love to see the "reasons" as we'll call it that you would've came up with for him this season

It probably would have been the same "reasons" I came up with last season and the previous seasons. And the same "reasons" I've pointed out this season.

We don't help the helper. Period. Nobody rotates. Different center. Same old crap.

yea, I can see how it would be hard for someone to rotate for Bynum while he's in street clothes

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:Look who is making excuses now.

its ashame then I guess that we didn't keep Bynum, would've love to see the "reasons" as we'll call it that you would've came up with for him this season

It probably would have been the same "reasons" I came up with last season and the previous seasons. And the same "reasons" I've pointed out this season.

We don't help the helper. Period. Nobody rotates. Different center. Same old crap.

yea, I can see how it would be hard for someone to rotate for Bynum while he's in street clothes

He wasn't in street clothes last season, so I don't see your point.

revgen wrote:

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:Look who is making excuses now.

its ashame then I guess that we didn't keep Bynum, would've love to see the "reasons" as we'll call it that you would've came up with for him this season

It probably would have been the same "reasons" I came up with last season and the previous seasons. And the same "reasons" I've pointed out this season.

We don't help the helper. Period. Nobody rotates. Different center. Same old crap.

yea, I can see how it would be hard for someone to rotate for Bynum while he's in street clothes

He wasn't in street clothes last season, so I don't see your point.

in relations to this season bro, you were a strong proponent in keeping Bynum, so I would've love to see your excuse had we kept him. Like I said, there's been plays on PnR that Howard has done that Drew could've NEVER made, yes your help the helper point is legit but thats all you got and that wasn't the only brake down Bynum suffered.

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:

khmrP wrote:its ashame then I guess that we didn't keep Bynum, would've love to see the "reasons" as we'll call it that you would've came up with for him this season

It probably would have been the same "reasons" I came up with last season and the previous seasons. And the same "reasons" I've pointed out this season.

We don't help the helper. Period. Nobody rotates. Different center. Same old crap.

yea, I can see how it would be hard for someone to rotate for Bynum while he's in street clothes

He wasn't in street clothes last season, so I don't see your point.

in relations to this season bro, you were a strong proponent in keeping Bynum, so I would've love to see your excuse had we kept him.

We're not talking about whether we should have kept him or not.

We're talking about his impact on the defensive end last season compared to what D12 is doing this season.

But as usual, when you can't win an argument, change the topic.

revgen wrote:We're not talking about whether we should have kept him or not.

We're talking about his impact on the defensive end last season compared to what D12 is doing this season.

But as usual, when you can't win an argument, change the topic.

why can't we? just cause its not to your liking? Most of us wanted Bynum traded because of health reasons on top of him being SLOW and LAZY. Yes the help the helper issue is still here but that wasn't Bynum only brake down on D, Howard has made plays on PnR that we would've NEVER imagined Bynum being able to do and that is still being limited with his injury. Just cause you make one point doesn't mean another can't be made in the fact that Bynum hasn't played nor does he even have a time table for his return, thats as valid of a point you can make in regards to the IMPACT of that trade.

Yes it is fixable.

khmrP wrote:
why can't we? just cause its not to your liking? Most of us wanted Bynum traded because of health reasons on top of him being SLOW and LAZY. Yes the help the helper issue is still here but that wasn't Bynum only brake down on D, Howard has made plays on PnR that we would've NEVER imagined Bynum being able to do and that is still being limited with his injury. Just cause you make one point doesn't mean another can't be made in the fact that Bynum hasn't played nor does he even have a time table for his return, thats as valid of a point you can make in regards to the IMPACT of that trade.

1) No. Because the topic says "Laker defense - fixable". That has nothing to do with Bynum being injured or not.

2) Once again. Opinion without substance. You make the claim that Howard will make a huge difference this season defensively. The claim doesn't bear fruit.

3) Bynum not playing has nothing to do with the "Laker defense". He's not a Laker this season. He was last season. But I guess that's too difficult to figure out for some people.

revgen wrote:

khmrP wrote:
why can't we? just cause its not to your liking? Most of us wanted Bynum traded because of health reasons on top of him being SLOW and LAZY. Yes the help the helper issue is still here but that wasn't Bynum only brake down on D, Howard has made plays on PnR that we would've NEVER imagined Bynum being able to do and that is still being limited with his injury. Just cause you make one point doesn't mean another can't be made in the fact that Bynum hasn't played nor does he even have a time table for his return, thats as valid of a point you can make in regards to the IMPACT of that trade.

1) No. Because the topic says "Laker defense - fixable". That has nothing to do with Bynum being injured or not.

2) Once again. Opinion without substance. You make the claim that Howard will make a huge difference this season defensively. The claim doesn't bear fruit.

3) Bynum not playing has nothing to do with the "Laker defense". He's not a Laker this season. He was last season. But I guess that's too difficult to figure out for some people.

you made a point that Bynum was not lazy or slow because this D is still bad with howard, one thing doesn't take from another, just cause this team is still bad under Antoni doesn't mean Mike Brown wasn't a bad coach either. Like I said, Howard has made plays on PnR that Bynum would've never even came close to making. Bynum whenever he does return will still get beat the same way he was here even with a young/athletic Phi team. The only legit point you got is the help the helper issue but still doesn't take away form Bynum being slow and lazy at ALL.

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:

khmrP wrote:
why can't we? just cause its not to your liking? Most of us wanted Bynum traded because of health reasons on top of him being SLOW and LAZY. Yes the help the helper issue is still here but that wasn't Bynum only brake down on D, Howard has made plays on PnR that we would've NEVER imagined Bynum being able to do and that is still being limited with his injury. Just cause you make one point doesn't mean another can't be made in the fact that Bynum hasn't played nor does he even have a time table for his return, thats as valid of a point you can make in regards to the IMPACT of that trade.

1) No. Because the topic says "Laker defense - fixable". That has nothing to do with Bynum being injured or not.

2) Once again. Opinion without substance. You make the claim that Howard will make a huge difference this season defensively. The claim doesn't bear fruit.

3) Bynum not playing has nothing to do with the "Laker defense". He's not a Laker this season. He was last season. But I guess that's too difficult to figure out for some people.

you made a point that Bynum was not lazy or slow because this D is still bad with howard, which is false one thing doesn't take from another, just cause this team is still bad under Antoni doesn't mean Mike Brown wasn't a bad coach either. Like I said, Howard has made plays on PnR that Bynum would've never even came close to making. Bynum whenever he does return will still get beat the same way he was here even with a young/athletic Phi team.

Once again, more opinion without substance. If D12's abilities on PNR are so great, and Bynum is so slow, then D12's "superior" abilities would be bearing fruit.

If you dont think Bynum was/is slow then dam you truly are a great fan of his.

khmrP wrote:If you dont think Bynum was/is slow then dam you truly are a great fan of his.

I didn't say he wasn't slower than D12. Just not slow enough to be the weak link in our defense.

Bad weakside rotations have always been the major source of our issues on defense. Regardless of who was anchoring the paint. Substituting Bynum for a 3x DPOY doesn't change what is fundamentally wrong.

Yao Ming was slower than either D12 or Bynum. Yet he managed to anchor a superior defensive team when the Rockets were at their defensive peak under JVG. The teammates he had rotated at the right time and boxed out as soon as the ball went up. The whole "slow & lazy center" theory is simply ridiculous.

lakers defense fixable

I suppose it is

but you have to start by practicing it first and putting focus on it during practice

so maybe it's not than

It's not even about playing great defense because we never will, they have to get their mindset to play solid D & that should at least be good enough given that our offense doesn't usually suffer.

Even Mitch basically said there are some players who aren't interested in playing D

I think Pau continues to struggle to figure out how he’s going to play with his group,” said Kupchak. “Our coaches are struggling as well. We’re not going to succeed as a team until we figure that out.”

“In order to be a good defensive team, everybody has to really, really want to play defense and defend.”

http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-news-gm-mitch-kupchak-chimes-in-on-lakers-struggles/2013/01/07/

pound4pound1 wrote:it's fixable but we dont have the coaching staff to fix it

To me it's the fact that the head coach just isn't interested in it. I don't even know who is in charge of the D on the staff. But D' Antoni continues to talk about the D only in regards to the O and not as it's own issue.

But even when talking about the offense, it's a conundrum because his whole offensive scheme and philosophy run counter to common wisdom about D. We're going uptempo with an old squad. We're shooting tons of threes by design. When we miss those are long rebounds that lead to fast breaks in transition. We're not focusing on the post. We're not going with the percentages. The whole thing seems completely unsound from a defensive point of view.

Meanwhile, as Revgen has pointed out, even when we're funneling the PG's (who are killing us lately - CP3, Lawson), no one helps the helper. And last game I felt that even Dwight's help D wasn't on par in the lane.

We've got issues. And I don't see the defense being a priority with D' Antoni. I think it's kind of a recipe for disaster. We literally can't make stops lately. We seem to always be playing from behind and can't contain the other teams.

Lakerjones wrote:

pound4pound1 wrote:it's fixable but we dont have the coaching staff to fix it

To me it's the fact that the head coach just isn't interested in it. I don't even know who is in charge of the D on the staff. But D' Antoni continues to talk about the D only in regards to the O and not as it's own issue.

But even when talking about the offense, it's a conundrum because his whole offensive scheme and philosophy run counter to common wisdom about D. We're going uptempo with an old squad. We're shooting tons of threes by design. When we miss those are long rebounds that lead to fast breaks in transition. We're not focusing on the post. We're not going with the percentages. The whole thing seems completely unsound from a defensive point of view.

Meanwhile, as Revgen has pointed out, even when we're funneling the PG's (who are killing us lately - CP3, Lawson), no one helps the helper. And last game I felt that even Dwight's help D wasn't on par in the lane.

We've got issues. And I don't see the defense being a priority with D' Antoni. I think it's kind of a recipe for disaster. We literally can't make stops lately. We seem to always be playing from behind and can't contain the other teams.

yup.

Not sure how you get back to defend the transition offense if you place 2 guys in the far corners for your offensive spacing with little off ball movement......... if that guy is not a sharp shooter you made it really hard on him to get back and make this thing work......

this what I've been harping about when it comes to floor spacing relative to your offense..... you still have to have sound floor balance to rebound and defend transition opportunities..... this team generally has 4 guys under the free throw line marker with 2 of them moving toward the hoop and 2 guys standing still on the outside................. that is very bad fundamentally unless you only see things from an offensive perspective and even that is a stretch IMO.

Lets Go Lakers wrote:

borri wrote:Now lets look at the same #'s from last year:

1. Opp Pts in the paint per game = 41.5 (our rank 19th of 30)
2. Opp Fastbreak ppg = 15.8 (our rank 28th)
3. Opp Ast to TO ratio = 1.931 (our rank 30)

We sucked last year too in the same categories. Leaves me to believe, that it's not a system problem. It's the personnel.

Those are 3 stats out of dozens. What about other meaningful stats like PPG allowed, FG pct, etc? The 3 stats you mentioned are all somewhat related. If you can't stop penetration, you will have a lot of points in the paint and fast break points allowed, which in turn ups the assist/TO ratio. It all hints to our lack of athleticism. Not being able to stop penetration (Kobe and Nash). Not being able to get back (old legs). Not able to generate any turnovers (lacking the athleticism to jump passing lanes, disrupt passes, provide quick secondary help, move your feet).

I purposely chose to focus on these stats because they are the ones that result in the EASIEST buckets for the opponents. A good defense is one that tries to make it as hard as possible for teams to score. Right now, from those stats, teams are having an easy go of it, way way too easy.

What eye opening is, we were just as bad last year. The only change is at C and PG. While it's clear that D12 is a heck of alot better at help D than Bynum, I offer the following:

1. Nash, Morris, Duhon suck just as bad as Fisher.....although we weren't expecting much from Nash defensively, but Morris and Duhon were supposed to be better than Fish.
2. Kobe still is awful on most nights on D.
3. Metta has been alot better.
4. Pau....his D has been twice as bad if not worse than last year.

Looks like Kobe was right. We are old as hell. The minute D12 leaves the floor, it's a layup drill for the opp team.

Can't really put the blame too much on Antoni. It's the personnel. IF that's the case, the only FIX is to fix via trade. We've got to get better defensively at the PF position because, 1) we aren't trading Nash and 2) we aren't trading Kobe.