Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby emplay on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:59 pm

Hey all,

Some of my latest updates:

Lakers exposing each other's flaws
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow ... 5859.story

A look at all 30 teams – who has cap now – who has cap this summer?

NBA Salary Now, Salary Tomorrow
http://www.hoopsworld.com/salary-now-salary-tomorrow/

Lakers lose 106-93 to Grizzlies for seventh straight road defeat
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow ... 0074.story

Dwight Howard aggravates shoulder injury, sits out second half
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow ... 6797.story

NBA analyst Jeff Van Gundy blasts Dwight Howard
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow ... 9880.story

Jordan Hill undergoes hip surgery, expected to be out six months
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow ... 8259.story

Lakers' value hits $1 billion but trails Knicks, Forbes.com says
http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow ... 1730.story

Thanks

Eric
Check me at at www.HOOPSWORLD.com and on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/EricPincus
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby scissors on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:17 pm

Can someone copy and paste the article? It is telling me I have to register.
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby Kit on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:22 pm

The team concept has 13 to 15 players coming together to make each other better.

With a good team, individual flaws can be overcome. The Lakers are simply not a good team, not this year.

Whether they'll find themselves before it's too late remains to be seen. Where has there been any true improvement?

Steve Nash has always struggled defensively through his career. Kobe Bryant will do too much on offense and get lost on defense playing "center field."

Nash won back-to-back MVP awards as the same, limited defender. Bryant's headstrong style of play has helped lead the Lakers to five NBA championships.

Dwight Howard doesn't have a refined post game and can't shoot free throws - and yet he and the Orlando Magic made it to the Finals.

Pau Gasol can be bothered by physical play but he's a two-time champion.

Mike D'Antoni has little reputation for coaching defensively but his run in Phoenix with the Suns helped revolutionize the game.

As a group the Lakers are older, slower and deflated. They've had injuries, coaching changes and too many failures to comprehend.

The Lakers are exposed for all their flaws, making each and every individual look worse than they are. There's nowhere to hide - no one covering for their teammates.

This is not a team, not one that that plays together. If the Lakers have any designs on salvaging the season, they're going to have to find a way to bring out the best in each other.
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:24 pm

^^I'd also add that there is a lack of depth at play here than is as much to blame as mismatched pieces in the starting 5. You can't have vets playing the minutes these guys are and expect long lived success....
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:15 pm

Rooscooter wrote:^^I'd also add that there is a lack of depth at play here than is as much to blame as mismatched pieces in the starting 5. You can't have vets playing the minutes these guys are and expect long lived success....


Well, I'm not going argue our depth can't be improved, but, I don't know if this is a reason at all. I would agree with this IF we were going up big and then falling short later in the game because of our depth.

But that's not what's been happening. We're losing games in the beginning, then making runs late, and then falling short. Our strength is supposed to be with our starting unit. We should be leading early on in just about every game but we're not.
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby thkthebest on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:38 pm

^Recently, that's true possibly because our veterans our tired (like Rooscooter said). Throughout the season though, our two best quarters are the 1st and 4th quarter. We get outscored in the 2nd and 3rd quarter.
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby Doc Brown on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:41 pm

JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^I'd also add that there is a lack of depth at play here than is as much to blame as mismatched pieces in the starting 5. You can't have vets playing the minutes these guys are and expect long lived success....


Well, I'm not going argue our depth can't be improved, but, I don't know if this is a reason at all. I would agree with this IF we were going up big and then falling short later in the game because of our depth.

But that's not what's been happening. We're losing games in the beginning, then making runs late, and then falling short. Our strength is supposed to be with our starting unit. We should be leading early on in just about every game but we're not.


Who is our backup PG? SG? SF?
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:49 pm

Doc Brown wrote:
JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^I'd also add that there is a lack of depth at play here than is as much to blame as mismatched pieces in the starting 5. You can't have vets playing the minutes these guys are and expect long lived success....


Well, I'm not going argue our depth can't be improved, but, I don't know if this is a reason at all. I would agree with this IF we were going up big and then falling short later in the game because of our depth.

But that's not what's been happening. We're losing games in the beginning, then making runs late, and then falling short. Our strength is supposed to be with our starting unit. We should be leading early on in just about every game but we're not.


Who is our backup PG? SG? SF?


Once again, not saying depth can't be improved, it can. But if depth were the problem for this team, we'd be leading most games by the end of the 1st quarter since our starters play most of those minutes and are playing fresh.

But we look terrible even in the first quarter so I'm not buying that depth is something we have to worry about. We don't pay Kobe $30M, Dwight $20M, Pau $20M and Nash $9M if we have to then be Clippers deep to compete. We should dominate with our starters and then maybe give a little back due to our lack of depth but I don't feel that is what is happening.

Do you?
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:53 pm

JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^I'd also add that there is a lack of depth at play here than is as much to blame as mismatched pieces in the starting 5. You can't have vets playing the minutes these guys are and expect long lived success....


Well, I'm not going argue our depth can't be improved, but, I don't know if this is a reason at all. I would agree with this IF we were going up big and then falling short later in the game because of our depth.

But that's not what's been happening. We're losing games in the beginning, then making runs late, and then falling short. Our strength is supposed to be with our starting unit. We should be leading early on in just about every game but we're not.



you did catch the third word in my first sentence right?.....
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:56 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^I'd also add that there is a lack of depth at play here than is as much to blame as mismatched pieces in the starting 5. You can't have vets playing the minutes these guys are and expect long lived success....


Well, I'm not going argue our depth can't be improved, but, I don't know if this is a reason at all. I would agree with this IF we were going up big and then falling short later in the game because of our depth.

But that's not what's been happening. We're losing games in the beginning, then making runs late, and then falling short. Our strength is supposed to be with our starting unit. We should be leading early on in just about every game but we're not.



you did catch the third word in my first sentence right?.....


Yeah, it was the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th and 26th words in your first sentence I didn't agree with.

When you're a top heavy as our team is, you expect to sacrifice on depth. If the mismatches in our starters were a non-issue, as in, they clicked and dominated as we expected them to, depth would be as much of a concern.
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:59 pm

JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^I'd also add that there is a lack of depth at play here than is as much to blame as mismatched pieces in the starting 5. You can't have vets playing the minutes these guys are and expect long lived success....


Well, I'm not going argue our depth can't be improved, but, I don't know if this is a reason at all. I would agree with this IF we were going up big and then falling short later in the game because of our depth.

But that's not what's been happening. We're losing games in the beginning, then making runs late, and then falling short. Our strength is supposed to be with our starting unit. We should be leading early on in just about every game but we're not.



you did catch the third word in my first sentence right?.....


Yeah, it was the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th and 26th words in your first sentence I didn't agree with.

When you're a top heavy as our team is, you expect to sacrifice on depth. If the mismatches in our starters were a non-issue, as in, they clicked and dominated as we expected them to, depth would be as much of a concern.


Well then we're right where we usually are..... :man10:
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:13 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^I'd also add that there is a lack of depth at play here than is as much to blame as mismatched pieces in the starting 5. You can't have vets playing the minutes these guys are and expect long lived success....


Well, I'm not going argue our depth can't be improved, but, I don't know if this is a reason at all. I would agree with this IF we were going up big and then falling short later in the game because of our depth.

But that's not what's been happening. We're losing games in the beginning, then making runs late, and then falling short. Our strength is supposed to be with our starting unit. We should be leading early on in just about every game but we're not.



you did catch the third word in my first sentence right?.....


Yeah, it was the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th and 26th words in your first sentence I didn't agree with.

When you're a top heavy as our team is, you expect to sacrifice on depth. If the mismatches in our starters were a non-issue, as in, they clicked and dominated as we expected them to, depth would be as much of a concern.


Well then we're right where we usually are..... :man10:


Yeah except I don't think they are equally responsible for our struggles. I think they are both responsible, but I think the fact that our starters are mismatched is more responsible for our overall performance than is the bench depth.
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby Doc Brown on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:32 pm

JGC wrote:
Once again, not saying depth can't be improved, it can. But if depth were the problem for this team, we'd be leading most games by the end of the 1st quarter since our starters play most of those minutes and are playing fresh.

But we look terrible even in the first quarter so I'm not buying that depth is something we have to worry about. We don't pay Kobe $30M, Dwight $20M, Pau $20M and Nash $9M if we have to then be Clippers deep to compete. We should dominate with our starters and then maybe give a little back due to our lack of depth but I don't feel that is what is happening.

Do you?


We've led or tied in the 1st quarter 25 out of 42 games.

We've led or tied in the 2nd quarter 19 out of 42 games.

We've led or tied in the 3rd quarter 17 out of 42 games

We are 3-22 if we aren't leading by the end of the 3rd quarter.

Notice how the trend goes down as the game goes on? I wonder why.......hmm.....
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:34 pm

Doc Brown wrote:
JGC wrote:
Once again, not saying depth can't be improved, it can. But if depth were the problem for this team, we'd be leading most games by the end of the 1st quarter since our starters play most of those minutes and are playing fresh.

But we look terrible even in the first quarter so I'm not buying that depth is something we have to worry about. We don't pay Kobe $30M, Dwight $20M, Pau $20M and Nash $9M if we have to then be Clippers deep to compete. We should dominate with our starters and then maybe give a little back due to our lack of depth but I don't feel that is what is happening.

Do you?


We've led or tied in the 1st quarter 25 out of 42 games.

We've led or tied in the 2nd quarter 19 out of 42 games.

We've led or tied in the 3rd quarter 17 out of 42 games

We are 3-22 if we aren't leading by the end of the 3rd quarter.

Notice how the trend goes down as the game goes on? I wonder why.......hmm.....



Oh... I know.... I know..... I know.....

Usage Rate!?..... right?...
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby Lakeshow24 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:03 pm

Much better than those Plaschke and Simers writeups!
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:27 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
Doc Brown wrote:
JGC wrote:
Once again, not saying depth can't be improved, it can. But if depth were the problem for this team, we'd be leading most games by the end of the 1st quarter since our starters play most of those minutes and are playing fresh.

But we look terrible even in the first quarter so I'm not buying that depth is something we have to worry about. We don't pay Kobe $30M, Dwight $20M, Pau $20M and Nash $9M if we have to then be Clippers deep to compete. We should dominate with our starters and then maybe give a little back due to our lack of depth but I don't feel that is what is happening.

Do you?


We've led or tied in the 1st quarter 25 out of 42 games.

We've led or tied in the 2nd quarter 19 out of 42 games.

We've led or tied in the 3rd quarter 17 out of 42 games

We are 3-22 if we aren't leading by the end of the 3rd quarter.

Notice how the trend goes down as the game goes on? I wonder why.......hmm.....



Oh... I know.... I know..... I know.....

Usage Rate!?..... right?...


I like how you left out that we've led or tied after the 4th quarter 17 out of 42 games (since we are 17-25). Because if you mentioned that part, you couldn't make the claim about a downward trend (it would actually plateau there in the 4th).

At any rate, I think you're making some invalid conclusions here. If we're losing by double digits in every one of the 23 games in which we're losing by halftime, and then losing by 1 pt in every single one of the 25 games in which we're losing by the 3rd quarter, then we would actually be improving between halftime and the end of the 3rd quarter. But relying solely on what you've shown here doesn't provide that insight.

For instance, the following would fit the data you provided, but fail to match your conclusion:

- By halftime, we are losing 23 times out of 42 games by 10 in every one of those games.
- By end of third quarter, we are only losing by 1 in every one of those 23 games.
- Then, there were 2 games where we were tied at halftime, and losing by 1 by the end of the 3rd quarter.

If that were the case, then we'd actually be getting better LATER overall (outside of the two games where we led at halftime and were only losing by 1 in the 3rd quarter).

We could very well be winning the 3rd and 4th quarters on most nights and still be losing games.

If the NET point totals (our points - their points) were decreasing each quarter, you might have a point but even then, that doesn't really conclusively illustrate that depth is equally to blame as the starting 5 are.

Bottom line our team was built to dominate with the starters, and anything we get from the bench is icing on the cake.
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby Lakeshow24 on Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:19 am

JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
Doc Brown wrote:
JGC wrote:
Once again, not saying depth can't be improved, it can. But if depth were the problem for this team, we'd be leading most games by the end of the 1st quarter since our starters play most of those minutes and are playing fresh.

But we look terrible even in the first quarter so I'm not buying that depth is something we have to worry about. We don't pay Kobe $30M, Dwight $20M, Pau $20M and Nash $9M if we have to then be Clippers deep to compete. We should dominate with our starters and then maybe give a little back due to our lack of depth but I don't feel that is what is happening.

Do you?


We've led or tied in the 1st quarter 25 out of 42 games.

We've led or tied in the 2nd quarter 19 out of 42 games.

We've led or tied in the 3rd quarter 17 out of 42 games

We are 3-22 if we aren't leading by the end of the 3rd quarter.

Notice how the trend goes down as the game goes on? I wonder why.......hmm.....



Oh... I know.... I know..... I know.....

Usage Rate!?..... right?...


I like how you left out that we've led or tied after the 4th quarter 17 out of 42 games (since we are 17-25). Because if you mentioned that part, you couldn't make the claim about a downward trend (it would actually plateau there in the 4th).

At any rate, I think you're making some invalid conclusions here. If we're losing by double digits in every one of the 23 games in which we're losing by halftime, and then losing by 1 pt in every single one of the 25 games in which we're losing by the 3rd quarter, then we would actually be improving between halftime and the end of the 3rd quarter. But relying solely on what you've shown here doesn't provide that insight.

For instance, the following would fit the data you provided, but fail to match your conclusion:

- By halftime, we are losing 23 times out of 42 games by 10 in every one of those games.
- By end of third quarter, we are only losing by 1 in every one of those 23 games.
- Then, there were 2 games where we were tied at halftime, and losing by 1 by the end of the 3rd quarter.

If that were the case, then we'd actually be getting better LATER overall (outside of the two games where we led at halftime and were only losing by 1 in the 3rd quarter).

We could very well be winning the 3rd and 4th quarters on most nights and still be losing games.

If the NET point totals (our points - their points) were decreasing each quarter, you might have a point but even then, that doesn't really conclusively illustrate that depth is equally to blame as the starting 5 are.

Bottom line our team was built to dominate with the starters, and anything we get from the bench is icing on the cake.


I believe your arguments are actually more in agreement than they are in disagreement. What you're doing though is overanalyzing. Yes, the Lakers aren't "dominating" 1st quarters and still aren't meeting your and most fans' expectations. But they also aren't as poor as 17-25 and the coming soon 21 and 31 will be. Our starters have been competitive at least.
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby MC on Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:04 am

cute article but the big elephant in the room is still the FO bi-polar philosophy and the coach they hired to bring it to life

that is what's exposing this group to their weaknesses both as individuals and as a unit.

Every team has flaws.... most teams try and mask them and play to their strengths. That is not what this latest philosophy of play is doing. Instead they are full steam ahead straight into the mountain........ ridiculous and insulting to anyone that knows a lick about the game.
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby JGC on Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:56 am

Lakeshow24 wrote:I believe your arguments are actually more in agreement than they are in disagreement. What you're doing though is overanalyzing. Yes, the Lakers aren't "dominating" 1st quarters and still aren't meeting your and most fans' expectations. But they also aren't as poor as 17-25 and the coming soon 21 and 31 will be. Our starters have been competitive at least.


Competitive isn't good enough. The starters should be dominating almost every time they step out there. That was the strategy anyway.

It's why the team invested over $82MM in their starting 5. That's 82% of the entire team salary invested in the starters! We have spent more money in our starters, than most teams spend on their ENTIRE player payroll.

- That's 1% less than Miami has invested in their entire team.
- That's 13% more than the Clippers have invested in their entire team.
- That's 18% more than OKC has invested in their entire team.
- That's 21% more than the Grizzlies have invested in their team.

I just don't think it makes much sense to say the lack of depth is just as much to blame as the starting unit when you have nearly 4 times the money invested in the starting unit so much so there wasn't any left to develop a real bench. Partly to blame, sure, but let's be realistic here.
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Re: Lakers exposing each other's flaws

Postby Doc Brown on Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:26 pm

JGC wrote:I like how you left out that we've led or tied after the 4th quarter 17 out of 42 games (since we are 17-25). Because if you mentioned that part, you couldn't make the claim about a downward trend (it would actually plateau there in the 4th).


It's a downward trend regardless. We start out at 25 out of 42 and end up at 17 out of 42. Draw a straight line between the two points and I bet it's going down.

But we look terrible even in the first quarter so I'm not buying that depth is something we have to worry about


You said this, I showed you a stat that showed otherwise. We start out good and then drop off as the game goes on because we don't have any depth to carry us through. Aren't you one to complain about Kobe having to do too much and is playing too many minutes? Well why might that be?

At any rate, I think you're making some invalid conclusions here. If we're losing by double digits in every one of the 23 games in which we're losing by halftime, and then losing by 1 pt in every single one of the 25 games in which we're losing by the 3rd quarter, then we would actually be improving between halftime and the end of the 3rd quarter. But relying solely on what you've shown here doesn't provide that insight.


You've watched the games, you don't need to make up these hypothetical situations. How about you go through all the games and see if that's true, otherwise you're hypothetical scenario is just that hypothetical. It doesn't apply to the Lakers this season, it's a broad generalized claim. Instead of calling other people's conclusions invalid, how about trying to debunk them by using information that is relevant and can be applied to the situation.

For instance, the following would fit the data you provided, but fail to match your conclusion:

- By halftime, we are losing 23 times out of 42 games by 10 in every one of those games.
- By end of third quarter, we are only losing by 1 in every one of those 23 games.
- Then, there were 2 games where we were tied at halftime, and losing by 1 by the end of the 3rd quarter.

If that were the case, then we'd actually be getting better LATER overall (outside of the two games where we led at halftime and were only losing by 1 in the 3rd quarter).


Again, dig up the actual information of how it applies to the Lakers. That's all fine and dandy, but does it apply to the Lakers this season? Is that their record and trend after halftime and the 3rd quarter? If not, I really don't care.

We could very well be winning the 3rd and 4th quarters on most nights and still be losing games.


Quarter 1 - we average 26.6 points, opponents average 25.6.
Quarter 2 - we average 25.7 points, opponents average 26.7.
Quarter 3 - we average 24.5 points, opponents average 24.7.
Quarter 4 - we average 25.3 points, opponents average 24.3.

1st quarter - You were wrong that the starters aren't leading most of the time. On average they are. Instead of some hypothetical story, I'll give you things that I see with my own eyes that relates to the Lakers. We get beat in the 2nd and 3rd quarter because we are playing run down starters or our crappy bench. We get down at the end of the 3rd and at the end of A LOT of games this year, we make a feel good about yourself run to close the lead and "outscore" our opponents because of that. That's what actually happens.

We start strong and have no depth to sustain --> Leads to increased minutes on the starters --> Get beat in 2nd and 3rd quarter --> No energy to come back --> Make a run when game is already decided.

But if depth were the problem for this team, we'd be leading most games by the end of the 1st quarter since our starters play most of those minutes and are playing fresh.


But we are leading at the end of the 1st quarter of most games.....

If the NET point totals (our points - their points) were decreasing each quarter, you might have a point but even then, that doesn't really conclusively illustrate that depth is equally to blame as the starting 5 are.


Why is it that our highest scoring quarter is the 1st quarter? And the opponents highest scoring quarter is the 2nd quarter?

Who plays in the 2nd quarter?.....Our bench.

Since you like hypotheticals, we would see a straight dip from the 1st to 4th quarter if not for the feel good runs at the end of games.

Bottom line our team was built to dominate with the starters, and anything we get from the bench is icing on the cake.


Starters - 76.3 ppg, 31.2 rpg, 16.5 apg, 5bpg, 83.5 efficiency
Opponent - 67.3 ppg, 27.3 rpg, 16.1 apg, 3 bpg, 75.9 efficiency

Bench - 26.2 ppg, 13.7 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.2 bpg, 30.3 efficiency
Opponent - 34.3 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 7.5 apg, 3 spg, 38.6 efficiency

Our starters are better across the board.
Our bench gets beat across the board.

I'd call the starters dominating in every category and the bench getting stomped in every category.
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