Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:34 am

phoenixrisingla wrote:You make some really good points real deal. And I agree that player effort is definitely part of it, but at the end of the day Phil was able to get enough out of his players to win.

Asking us to be blind to the fact that D'Antoni is known FIRST AND FOREMOST as a coach who doesnt value defense, then he shows up and ours goes in the toilet is just too much for us to call coincidence and try to put completely on the players, wouldnt you agree?

I'm not asking you to ignore his lack of defensive knowledge, not at all. Certainly if he knew more about defense or dedicated more time to it, we'd see more success on that end. I'm not saying he's free of blame because at this point, with a pathetic record and hope quickly fading away, EVERYONE is to blame.

All I'm saying is that D'Antoni shouldn't be singled out any more than anyone else because the team has already PROVEN they can play defense when they want to. They have PROVEN that when they want to really try hard on that end, they can make a move. Namely the 4th against the Clippers and the 4th against the Spurs.

They've proven that they can give us a better effort than we've seen from them so far, but we're putting the blame on Jim Buss and Mike D'Antoni? Everyone loves putting the brunt of the blame on somebody, but in reality EVERYONE is to blame. I'm not going to put anything on D'Antoni right now that I wouldn't put on Kobe or Nash or Howard or Gasol. None of them are doing enough to win games.
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby John3:16 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:35 am

LakerFanIam wrote:Well, that makes sense considering they only play defense for about 15-20 minutes each game...


I heard this joke somewhere else. Can't remember where though.
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby LakerFanIam on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:37 am

John3:16 wrote:
LakerFanIam wrote:Well, that makes sense considering they only play defense for about 15-20 minutes each game...


I heard this joke somewhere else. Can't remember where though.


Unfortunately, it's not a joke..
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:38 am

Lakerman JSJ wrote:
pound4pound1 wrote:interesting...that's 15-20mins more than they play in the actual games


OOOOOHHHHH...

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John3:16 wrote:
LakerFanIam wrote:Well, that makes sense considering they only play defense for about 15-20 minutes each game...


I heard this joke somewhere else. Can't remember where though.
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby LakerFanIam on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:43 am

^^^^ Yeah, I'm the Carlos Mencia of ClubLakers...
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby Finwë on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:03 pm

Regarding the Phil comparison, IMO there's a difference between running defensive drills (what Kobe said Phil didn't do) and addressing / dedicating time to / talking about D. It sounded like D'Antoni dedicates only 20 minutes per practice to D as a whole..
Also Phil was a better motivator than D'Antoni (though he didn't show it in his last season with the team)
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby wcsoldier81 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:05 pm

phoenixrisingla wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Exactly. Man, everyone is so quick to dump all of this on D'Antoni. Watch the 4th quarter last night. The team CAN play defense, they just DON'T. That's the players not giving the consistent effort on that end.

Phil's teams during our last two Championships played defense just enough to win. We weren't some awesome defesnive squad. And in Phil's last year, that was obvious. The only part of this that I put on D'Antoni is that he isn't inspiring them like a head coach should... but his coaching of the offense is not the issue.

Should he put more effort into coaching defense? Well absolutely. But that doesn't mean what he's doing now is terribly different than what Phil did. The guys just don't have the same heart as those teams did.


You make some really good points real deal. And I agree that player effort is definitely part of it, but at the end of the day Phil was able to get enough out of his players to win.

Asking us to be blind to the fact that D'Antoni is known FIRST AND FOREMOST as a coach who doesnt value defense, then he shows up and ours goes in the toilet is just too much for us to call coincidence and try to put completely on the players, wouldnt you agree?


I wish we had VINNY DEL NEGRO or SCOTT BROOKS as our coach , their teams are 4th and 8th in defensive efficiency .

AWESOME DEFENSIVE MINDED COACHES with old rosters
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby John3:16 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:06 pm

Even if Phil didn't practice defense, the triangle lends itself to better defense (less possessions, less fast break opportunities, less long rebounds). Shooting 3s in the first 10 seconds of an offensive possession leads to the opposite.
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:14 pm

I don't disagree with any of the criticism of D'Antoni the coach. I jsut don't think it's right to try to shovel the blame of the defense on this guy without taking into account the effort level of our players.

Earl freaking Clark looked like an All-Star last night. Is it because he's better than Pau? Or better than Jamison? No. It's because he worked harder. If we got that type of effort out of all of our players including Kobe, Howard, and Nash we'd have a better record and we'd be in the playoff mix. D'Antoni or not.
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby John3:16 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:21 pm

therealdeal wrote:I don't disagree with any of the criticism of D'Antoni the coach. I jsut don't think it's right to try to shovel the blame of the defense on this guy without taking into account the effort level of our players.

Earl freaking Clark looked like an All-Star last night. Is it because he's better than Pau? Or better than Jamison? No. It's because he worked harder. If we got that type of effort out of all of our players including Kobe, Howard, and Nash we'd have a better record and we'd be in the playoff mix. D'Antoni or not.


I agree. They should give more effort. Because they're not, you gotta ask why? Is it because they don't care? I think they care. Or is it not a point of emphasis? or is the system not lending itself to success on that end of the court?
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:24 pm

John3:16 wrote:
therealdeal wrote:I don't disagree with any of the criticism of D'Antoni the coach. I jsut don't think it's right to try to shovel the blame of the defense on this guy without taking into account the effort level of our players.

Earl freaking Clark looked like an All-Star last night. Is it because he's better than Pau? Or better than Jamison? No. It's because he worked harder. If we got that type of effort out of all of our players including Kobe, Howard, and Nash we'd have a better record and we'd be in the playoff mix. D'Antoni or not.


I agree. They should give more effort. Because they're not, you gotta ask why? Is it because they don't care? I think they care. Or is it not a point of emphasis? or is the system not lending itself to success on that end of the court?

It's a combination of things, but the system was effective enough last night to put a team that was largely made of scrubs in a position to win once they put forth their full effort.

Honestly I think it's 100% psycholigcal at this point. They started this season with this incredible pressure to win. Once they started losing the pressure rose, winning got harder, injuries happened, and they kept losing. With each loss, the pressure compounded. It's still compounding.

I know you're not a Dodger fan, but the exact same thing happened to them after that huge trade. These Lakers DO care. But losing has become a culture of the locker room and it's hard to turn that corner. Is that D'Antoni's fault? Sure, part of it. But part of it is on Kobe and Nash and Gasol and Artest to change that culture.
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby Snakell Beast on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:51 pm

It's not so much about practice time, its about EMPHASIS. Dantoni makes all of his roster decisions based on offense, and he plays or benches guys based on offensive performance. He doesn't pay any attention to defense WITH HIS ROTATIONS AND PHILOSOPHIES...so it doesn't matter if they start spending 8 hours a day practicing defense, he is still going to EMPHASIZE offense with everything he does.
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:57 pm

^ Interesting take...

I guess I see what you're saying. Hill was out of the rotation because of his offense. Clark too. Now they'll both be in for the other things they do.
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby pound4pound1 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:59 pm

Snakell Beast wrote:It's not so much about practice time, its about EMPHASIS. Dantoni makes all of his roster decisions based on offense, and he plays or benches guys based on offensive performance. He doesn't pay any attention to defense WITH HIS ROTATIONS AND PHILOSOPHIES...so it doesn't matter if they start spending 8 hours a day practicing defense, he is still going to EMPHASIZE offense with everything he does.



exactly...MDA doesn't try to matchup defensively...he does it thru offense...its not a matter of 'who can slow down that guy' its more 'who can get those 2 points back on our end'
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby Snakell Beast on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:02 pm

therealdeal wrote:^ Interesting take...

I guess I see what you're saying. Hill was out of the rotation because of his offense. Clark too. Now they'll both be in for the other things they do.


Maybe...but you notice that it wasn't until Hill started making 15 foot jump shots and Clark scored 22 points that Antoni took notice. He doesn't lack an understanding of the importance of defense, he simply focuses all of his evaluations and adjustments to the offense.

It's why Ebanks isn't playing. Despite great length, youth and athleticism (and an aptitude for defending multiple positions well) Devin is a no go BECAUSE he is not a good offensive player. Antoni will CONTINUE to play Jamison over Ebanks, no matter how bad Antawn's D is, because Antawn is a proven scorer.
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby Mr_Hollywood_Line on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:03 pm

therealdeal wrote:Exactly. Man, everyone is so quick to dump all of this on D'Antoni. Watch the 4th quarter last night. The team CAN play defense, they just DON'T. That's the players not giving the consistent effort on that end.


I just don't understand why this "culture of laziness" is tolerated by the Lakers organization.
The message to players should be "play hard on defense every night or lose your job."
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:04 pm

Snakell Beast wrote:
therealdeal wrote:^ Interesting take...

I guess I see what you're saying. Hill was out of the rotation because of his offense. Clark too. Now they'll both be in for the other things they do.


Maybe...but you notice that it wasn't until Hill started making 15 foot jump shots and Clark scored 22 points that Antoni took notice. He doesn't lack an understanding of the importance of defense, he simply focuses all of his evaluations and adjustments to the offense.

If you're right and that's how he bases his decisions, then I think he has an incredible lack of understanding of the importance of defense.

I don't know if I necessarily agree with you on it, but certainly you make a point. What would your explanation then be of why Jamison isn't playing?
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:06 pm

Mr_Hollywood_Line wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Exactly. Man, everyone is so quick to dump all of this on D'Antoni. Watch the 4th quarter last night. The team CAN play defense, they just DON'T. That's the players not giving the consistent effort on that end.


I just don't understand why this "culture of laziness" is tolerated by the Lakers organization.
The message to players should be "play hard on defense every night or lose your job."

Easy: it's being captained by Kobe Bryant. He doesn't give a s*** about defense this season and we all see it. The league has taken notice and he doesn't seem to really care all that much. The team is going to take it's cue from him and if he isn't dedicated to it, then they won't be.

On top of that you have some guys that simply can't defend like Gasol, Jamison, and Nash. Their short comings were expected to be supported by Howard, but he hasn't been able to find himself yet defensively because he's not 100% healthy.
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby Snakell Beast on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:08 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Snakell Beast wrote:
therealdeal wrote:^ Interesting take...

I guess I see what you're saying. Hill was out of the rotation because of his offense. Clark too. Now they'll both be in for the other things they do.


Maybe...but you notice that it wasn't until Hill started making 15 foot jump shots and Clark scored 22 points that Antoni took notice. He doesn't lack an understanding of the importance of defense, he simply focuses all of his evaluations and adjustments to the offense.

If you're right and that's how he bases his decisions, then I think he has an incredible lack of understanding of the importance of defense.

I don't know if I necessarily agree with you on it, but certainly you make a point. What would your explanation then be of why Jamison isn't playing?


I added an edit...he is playing a little. Antoni wanted Jamison to be a bench scorer or a stretch 4, offensive roles, and Jamison has failed to shoot acurately enough to fill that offensive role. He could have used Ebanks against Houston and SA, but he stuck with Jamison because he is the better offensive player.

Antawn is Antoni's achilles heal with this team. He is the foil. He is the guy that Antoni thought could spread the floor at the 4...so he has become so upset that Jamison didn't work out the way he wanted, coupled with desperately seeking a more efficient stretch 4 (ala MWP), that he has taken it out on #4.
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:12 pm

Snakell Beast wrote:
therealdeal wrote:^ Interesting take...

I guess I see what you're saying. Hill was out of the rotation because of his offense. Clark too. Now they'll both be in for the other things they do.


Maybe...but you notice that it wasn't until Hill started making 15 foot jump shots and Clark scored 22 points that Antoni took notice. He doesn't lack an understanding of the importance of defense, he simply focuses all of his evaluations and adjustments to the offense.

It's why Ebanks isn't playing. Despite great length, youth and athleticism (and an aptitude for defending multiple positions well) Devin is a no go BECAUSE he is not a good offensive player. Antoni will CONTINUE to play Jamison over Ebanks, no matter how bad Antawn's D is, because Antawn is a proven scorer.


Well that's clearly non sense

He benched Jamison game after game because his defense kills us and if he isn't making shots the problem is exacerbated x10

He started Morris because he wanted a speedy guard that could stay with his man

That's two examples right there of MDA making adjustments based on defense.

And Ebanks doesn't play because he's a horrible basketball player all around.
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:14 pm

Well Ebanks hasn't done anything. He's been my greatest disappointment this season because he has the phsycial tools to do a lot of good things. Unfortunately he doesn't focus for more than 2 plays a game. He's neither an offensive weapon nor a defensive weapon.

Jamison played because he HAS to. We have no other bodies. But if D'Antoni were truly, truly dedicated only to offense, he'd play Jamison regardless. So yes I think the majority of his decisions come from offense, but he's flexible if he sees something that could translate to wins. For example: Morris starting. That kid has been garbage for a couple of weeks now, he doesn't deserve to start. But D'Antoni likes his energy in there with the starters so he's been using him. (He stopped with Artest's revival, but you get the point)
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby Snakell Beast on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:17 pm

therealdeal wrote:Easy: it's being captained by Kobe Bryant. He doesn't give a s*** about defense this season and we all see it. The league has taken notice and he doesn't seem to really care all that much. The team is going to take it's cue from him and if he isn't dedicated to it, then they won't be.

On top of that you have some guys that simply can't defend like Gasol, Jamison, and Nash. Their short comings were expected to be supported by Howard, but he hasn't been able to find himself yet defensively because he's not 100% healthy.


Blaming Kobe is a bit ridiculous. Kobe took leadership when he guarded Chris Paul for much of the game. Kobe is WILLING to play any role the coaching staff requires of him. Phil would DEMAND that Kobe play both sides of the ball. Antoni simply wants to make sure Kobe's shot is falling at a high rate.

therealdeal wrote:"Well Ebanks hasn't done anything. He's been my greatest disappointment this season because he has the phsycial tools to do a lot of good things. Unfortunately he doesn't focus for more than 2 plays a game. He's neither an offensive weapon nor a defensive weapon.

Jamison played because he HAS to. We have no other bodies. But if D'Antoni were truly, truly dedicated only to offense, he'd play Jamison regardless. So yes I think the majority of his decisions come from offense, but he's flexible if he sees something that could translate to wins. For example: Morris starting. That kid has been garbage for a couple of weeks now, he doesn't deserve to start. But D'Antoni likes his energy in there with the starters so he's been using him. (He stopped with Artest's revival, but you get the point)"


Ebanks hasn't played since Antoni took over. It's hard to do anything when you NEVER get on the court, and when you do it is in garbage time with no order or flow. And Darius Morris was playing the starting two so MWP could be the stretch 4, while still preserving Meeks' shooting for the bench. ALL OFFENSIVE ADJUSTMENTS.

EDIT - also take note that when Morris' outside shooting dropped, his role diminished. Ditto Duhon (and now Meeks).
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:30 pm

Snakell Beast wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Easy: it's being captained by Kobe Bryant. He doesn't give a s*** about defense this season and we all see it. The league has taken notice and he doesn't seem to really care all that much. The team is going to take it's cue from him and if he isn't dedicated to it, then they won't be.

On top of that you have some guys that simply can't defend like Gasol, Jamison, and Nash. Their short comings were expected to be supported by Howard, but he hasn't been able to find himself yet defensively because he's not 100% healthy.


Blaming Kobe is a bit ridiculous. Kobe took leadership when he guarded Chris Paul for much of the game. Kobe is WILLING to play any role the coaching staff requires of him. Phil would DEMAND that Kobe play both sides of the ball. Antoni simply wants to make sure Kobe's shot is falling at a high rate.

There's nothing ridiculous about blaming Kobe at all. 1. Kobe is the undisputed leader of the team. 2. The team has been widely and wildly unsuccessful. 3. Kobe doesn't play defense to the appropriate level.

If those 3 things are true (any Laker fan will agree) then how do you NOT blame Kobe? Is it 100% his fault? No, but he's the leader and it's responsibilty to lead by example. Kobe took leadership against Paul? Okay for maybe a few plays, but Paul roasted our team and hit the game clinching shot over Kobe. Kobe plays defense in stretches against guys he respects, but he doesn't give a crap about the other people he's supposed to guarding. That bleeds into his teammates mentality as well.
Snakell Beast wrote:Ebanks hasn't played since Antoni took over. It's hard to do anything when you NEVER get on the court, and when you do it is in garbage time with no order or flow. And Darius Morris was playing the starting two so MWP could be the stretch 4, while still preserving Meeks' shooting for the bench. ALL OFFENSIVE ADJUSTMENTS.

EDIT - also take note that when Morris' outside shooting dropped, his role diminished. Ditto Duhon.

Ebanks hasn't played because when he does he's largely ineffective on either side of the ball. It's not an OFFENSIVE adjustment, it's a COMPLETE lack of effort adjustment. Same can be said for Jamison. Duhon and Morris also were and are routinely abused defensively, it's not just on offense that they suck.
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby Doc Brown on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:33 pm

For those that are doggin' MDA about practicing defense for "X" amount of minutes, do you know how long the coaches with the top defenses practice defense?

I don't know the answer either, I just think it would interesting to compare what a crappy defensive coach in MDA to a great defensive coach like Thibs spend on practicing defense.
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Re: Lakers Only Practice Defense 15-20 Minutes

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:43 pm

Doc Brown wrote:For those that are doggin' MDA about practicing defense for "X" amount of minutes, do you know how long the coaches with the top defenses practice defense?

I don't know the answer either, I just think it would interesting to compare what a crappy defensive coach in MDA to a great defensive coach like Thibs spend on practicing defense.


I'm also curious. It's all relative, maybe 15-20 minutes is average :man10:
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