Lamar Odom Discussion: Waived, not up to NBA standard (38)

Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby kblo247 on Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:10 pm

I really don't get your argument as far as the facts go Roocoster

Lets be clear here, odom didnt play PF in Dallas, he played SF, as the backup to Marion.
Lets be clear, Lamar was deandres backup, as he played more with Blake, basically a backup defensive 5 to replace Kenyon Martin.

There is no logic that says he was a bad backup 4 since he left la, he hasn't even been a damn 4. Lamar hasn't been asked to be a PF. That said Lamar's metrics as a clipper are net positives when he was on the court, as they and one of the best defenses, a high assist rate, out rebounded teams, and held teams to a lesser percentage than with Jordan next to Blake. Likewise keep chirping about 39% yet ignore that Jill averages slightly more attempts and the difference in their makes is right along 0.5. Don't try to argue that LO plays more time, that Lamar plays more games, that he is in better playing shape durability wise, that his presence still has a better impact because you have none factually.

Just say I don't want Lamar, don't fabricate an argument when nothing goes against Lamar being better, and don't give me per 36 metrics when Hill can't handle 15mpg for a season without being put in suit
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby trodgers on Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:48 pm

I have no idea what's going on in this argument, but I wanted to chime in to ask this: you don't think Odom played PF AT ALL for the Clippers? Didn't he play it each of the three games he started? Is 82games.com wrong in suggesting that he played primarily PF?

Here are the top 5-man units Odom played in:
Bledsoe-Crawford-Barnes-Odom-Turiaf
Bledsoe-Crawford-Barnes-Odom-Hollins
Paul-Crawford-Barnes-Odom-Griffin
Bledsoe-Crawford-Barnes-Odom-Griffin

Wouldn't he be PF in all of those lineups?
62
5
Crawford-Hill-Barnes-Odom-Turiaf 68 1.01 1.03 -3 5 5
50
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby Doc Brown on Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:07 pm

And to add to Trodgers post about Odom, for the Mavs....

82games.com

13% of his minutes at SF
26% of his minutes at PF

Top 3 units with him on the court had him at the SF position. Most of the stats and numbers for that year point to him playing better and more effective at the SF spot compared to the PF spot.

PER at SF - 11.2
PER against him at SF - 12.3

PER at PF - 7.2
PER against him at SF - 15.8
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:20 pm

kblo247 wrote:I really don't get your argument as far as the facts go Roocoster


I thought I was pretty clear.... Odom bad.... anyone else good....

That clear enough?.... :man10:

Seriously, my "argument" is that mentally Odom has retired.... physically he's 33, overweight and has fading athleticism. His strengths (point forward) conflict with Nash and Farmar, he isn't, nor has ever been a decent jump shooter and I'd rather give the minutes in a non-playoff season to a player that has a chance to develop in the future.
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby Snakell Beast on Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:10 pm

Rooscooter wrote: When did Odom become a "Jump shooter" and a good FT shooter? I must have missed something. So the 39% from the field the last two years is magically gone if in a Laker Uniform? Reality tests your comments...


No, I am not saying Odom is a GOOD jump shooter or free throw shooter...I am saying he is a better jump and free throw shooter than Jordan Hill, THAT'S IT! As far as his shooting % from the floor, how bad do you think Hill's will be if he has to play the stretch 4 next to Pau and Kaman and shoot 18 footers all game???

Rooscooter wrote: Really? Hill has that kind of injury history?


46.75 games averaged in his career. 29 regular season games played last season. 'Nough said.

Rooscooter wrote: Lamar's state of mind applies to anything he does on the basketball court.


I agree to that, but my argument wasn't about Lamar's state of mind not applying ON THE COURT, it was about your contention that his state of mind was that he didn't want to play for the Lakers. You used an example that doesn't apply, since the Lakers are the ones who haven't offered a contract, not the other way around.

Rooscooter wrote: Again..... I must have missed with Odom developed this touch from the outside. Why do we need a starting PF that is a ball handler? Is Nash just going to be a spot up shooter? Do you not understand the offense? Odom as the facilitator is a Phil thing.... not a MDA thing. Nash will dominate the ball as will Farmar..... they have no other purpose.


Not going to go over your misrepresentation of my statement again. Odom shoots better than Hill, period. As far as Nash and Farmar dominating the ball...not so. Nash proved last year he can't be the guy that sets the table anymore. He is simply not fast or athletic enough at this stage of his career. We went 28-12 with Nash as a spot up shooter, also FYI D'Antoni was the head coach last season, so Steve should definitely operate a LOT as a shooter and less as a creator.

Nash can FACILITATE, but his days of creating opportunities for his teammates, by dissecting the defense, are LONG GONE. Farmar has never been that type of PG. He, as well as D'Antoni, both said as much...that he is more of a 2/1 hybrid. Check out Laker Nation's evaluation of the effect having a ball handler at the 4 has on a team, especially if that 4 can still rebound and defend...something Odom did at a high level once he played into shape last season.

Rooscooter wrote:What does this have to do with Odom. I fully understand this. There are others we can put in that position. I'd rather have another SF over another PF for MDA's system.

Finally, you completely missed responding to my post regarding your assertion that Odom needs a starting slot on the Lakers to revive his game. Is there a basis in reality for that claim?


OK, first, there are NO quality SFs left that would give us more value than Odom at this point. You can prognosticate about some d-leaguer breaking out, but I feel TOTALLY comfortable believing that is more of a fantasy than Odom being SOMEWHAT revived by getting...um, MORE SHOTS AND MINUTES...the lack of enough of which, coincidentally, was the primary reason he seemed "done" (to you anyway, I know better) these past two seasons.

Secondly, I didn't MISS your post...I simply made my argument about the fact that #1. Odom is still in great PHYSICAL HEALTH. Being around his familiar friends and with a larger role, and at only 33 with a light load the past two seasons, he has enough left in the tank to give us close to double what he gave LAC last year, since he will go from 19 minutes and 5 shots to 32 minutes and 10-12 shots.

#2. He will be playing a more natural role next to Pau as a point/stretch 4...instead of a three point shooting 3 or a defensive 4/5. The shots he gets will be more in his wheelhouse, and he will be in more of a rhythm. Odom is a rhythm player. He needs consistent playing time to get going. He isn't a spark plug for 15 minutes per game or a defensive enforcer.

If Odom had any serious injury history, or if he was 36 or older, then I would buy your argument about reality dictating that he is done. My argument addressed the only REALISTIC concern regarding Odom...his state of mind, which IMO will drastically improve if he has a starting role next to his best friends with a chance to not only be relevant again, but to earn one more good sized contract in his career.

You can say I am fantasizing about that, but it's conjecture...you can't have any evidence because you are predicting the FUTURE based on something that can't be measured (a person's thoughts) so pardon me if I feel reasonable and rational in disagreeing with your predictions/assessments.
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby Rooscooter on Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:09 pm

^^See the post above your.... rinse and repeat..... :man1:

No need to keep going over this.......
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby LOSLAKERS on Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:47 pm

I honestly feel like Odom is the missing piece the Lakers need right. Better sign him :mad1:
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby noobiew on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:50 pm

Odom might be turning 34 soon, but he is still a very good defensive rebounder, especially with Gasol playing at the 5, we desperately need a good defensive rebounder PF next to him, Lamar Odom fills that role.

Odom ranked 12th in the Defensive Rebound Pct (DRB%) and 14th in Total Rebound Pct (TRB%) last season in the league.

With Lamar and Hill, we have two solid rebounder PF pair with Gasol and Kaman at the 5, so I am in favor on bringing Lamar back. :man1:
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby lakersin4 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:19 pm

As much as I would rejoice if we signed LO, because I don't think we're signing any more bigs at all & that terrifies me.. I'd still prefer Tyrus Thomas.. We're establishing a pattern of signing young guys with a lot to prove & I really like that strategy.. Realistically we're not winning this season so I take the chance on the younger guy who might be able to find a role after we reload.. As long as we have Pau & Kaman at C a shotblocker like TT at PF would be a good fit.
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby Chillbongo on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:34 pm

Odom, at the veteran's minimum, for the 8-10 guy in the rotation, playing 20 minutes a game is fine. Is it ideal? Nah. But he brings familiarity and chemistry. He won't be the Odom we knew, but if he gets some sort of spark playing for Kobe/Pau/Farmar & Rambis, I'll be glad.

I agree though, he'll be used completely differently because of our coach, the athleticism he has TODAY, and because his style does conflict with Nash's (won't be initiating offense/making plays). I still take him at the minimum.
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby WilliamHaven on Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:14 am

considering almost every other PF option has signed with someone...LO is best of what's left regardless of anyone's argument for or against. so bring him on over.

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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby therealdeal on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:05 am

I'm not even sure why this thread is still open. I'd be shocked at this point if we signed Lamar.

With Harris on board, Lamar is redundant and unnecessary. Harris is a SF/PF tweener and that's what most of us were looking at Lamar for. The minutes that Lamar was going to play at PF are going to filled mostly by Hill and secondarily by either Gasol or a combination of the rookies we're bringing in.

The FO is looking in another direction than Lamar. I'm pretty sure this idea is done.
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby khmrP on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:18 am

therealdeal wrote:I'm not even sure why this thread is still open. I'd be shocked at this point if we signed Lamar.

With Harris on board, Lamar is redundant and unnecessary. Harris is a SF/PF tweener and that's what most of us were looking at Lamar for. The minutes that Lamar was going to play at PF are going to filled mostly by Hill and secondarily by either Gasol or a combination of the rookies we're bringing in.

The FO is looking in another direction than Lamar. I'm pretty sure this idea is done.


even if we're not trying to win nothing this year, this cast of PF/C consist of either injury prone players or unproven talents like kelly/harris. Its destined to fail.
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby therealdeal on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:25 am

khmrP wrote:
therealdeal wrote:I'm not even sure why this thread is still open. I'd be shocked at this point if we signed Lamar.

With Harris on board, Lamar is redundant and unnecessary. Harris is a SF/PF tweener and that's what most of us were looking at Lamar for. The minutes that Lamar was going to play at PF are going to filled mostly by Hill and secondarily by either Gasol or a combination of the rookies we're bringing in.

The FO is looking in another direction than Lamar. I'm pretty sure this idea is done.


even if we're not trying to win nothing this year, this cast of PF/C consist of either injury prone players or unproven talents like kelly/harris. Its destined to fail.

Would we be destined to succeed with Lamar? Or would we simply be prolonging the inevitable? Lamar over the last 2 seasons has been far from effective in almost every category. He's 34 years old. There's no room for growth at all, only clinging to the shreds of the past.

With this move, we get younger and cheaper. We get a guy who will play with his heart on his sleeve the whole game. He might not be as talented as Lamar was 10 years ago, but he really isn't that far removed from the Lamar of today.

I mean, really what's the argument FOR Lamar? Keep in mind, I really wanted Lamar here for a while.
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby khmrP on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:28 am

therealdeal wrote:
khmrP wrote:
therealdeal wrote:I'm not even sure why this thread is still open. I'd be shocked at this point if we signed Lamar.

With Harris on board, Lamar is redundant and unnecessary. Harris is a SF/PF tweener and that's what most of us were looking at Lamar for. The minutes that Lamar was going to play at PF are going to filled mostly by Hill and secondarily by either Gasol or a combination of the rookies we're bringing in.

The FO is looking in another direction than Lamar. I'm pretty sure this idea is done.


even if we're not trying to win nothing this year, this cast of PF/C consist of either injury prone players or unproven talents like kelly/harris. Its destined to fail.

Would we be destined to succeed with Lamar? Or would we simply be prolonging the inevitable? Lamar over the last 2 seasons has been far from effective in almost every category. He's 34 years old. There's no room for growth at all, only clinging to the shreds of the past.

With this move, we get younger and cheaper. We get a guy who will play with his heart on his sleeve the whole game. He might not be as talented as Lamar was 10 years ago, but he really isn't that far removed from the Lamar of today.

I mean, really what's the argument FOR Lamar? Keep in mind, I really wanted Lamar here for a while.


just "another big body" to me, I dont want to see a sloth like player in Kelly who already has leg problems or undersized unproven 6 7" guy who has problems playing against bigger guys at the PF spot even if its a backup role, Hill/Kaman are destined to get injured that is also inevitable. We've already seen what effort can do without production, his name is Jodie.
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby therealdeal on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:36 am

I ask again: what would Lamar do better for us? Would Lamar make us a Championship team? Would Lamar be THE difference maker at this point in his career when he's more of a Center than a Forward?

Or does it make more sense to take a gamble on a young guy with energy, athleticism, and an NBA body?

Harris is more suited for the NBA than Meeks is. Meeks is fairly athletic including good speed and leaping ability, but he doesn't have lateral quickness and he doesn't have long arms. Elias doesn't necessarily have great foot speed, but he has potential to be a pretty good defender and his body is already NBA ready. He's also a pretty good rebounder who has a decent nose for the ball.
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:05 am

You do both if permitted.

If Lamar was really okay with returning, the chemistry with Kobe/Pau/Nash would be great. If he's committed to getting back in shape and playing at a somewhat high level again, then his skills are definitely valuable on an offense like Mike D'Antoni with his ability to rebound and push. Defensively, he's shown he can be a difference maker. He would get a steady amount of minutes and Hill is more than a capable backup to dispel his minutes just in case. Odom's case is primarily set on 1. his willingness to play 2. his conditioning.

As for Elias, if he doesn't pan out,than he doesn't pan out. He drops out of rotation and we don't sign him for the team option. If he does and Lamar is working, then you play him at backup SF. If he does and Lamar is not working, then Lamar drops out of rotation and he's the backup PF.

Lamar would be a first choice to me, given he meets the two conditions I listed above.
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby khmrP on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:11 am

lakerfan2 wrote:You do both if permitted.

If Lamar was really okay with returning, the chemistry with Kobe/Pau/Nash would be great. If he's committed to getting back in shape and playing at a somewhat high level again, then his skills are definitely valuable on an offense like Mike D'Antoni with his ability to rebound and push. Defensively, he's shown he can be a difference maker. He would get a steady amount of minutes and Hill is more than a capable backup to dispel his minutes just in case. Odom's case is primarily set on 1. his willingness to play 2. his conditioning.

As for Elias, if he doesn't pan out,than he doesn't pan out. He drops out of rotation and we don't sign him for the team option. If he does and Lamar is working, then you play him at backup SF. If he does and Lamar is not working, then Lamar drops out of rotation and he's the backup PF.

Lamar would be a first choice to me, given he meets the two conditions I listed above.


this is what I should've said...I'm not against Harris signing, I'm just against the idea that he is being signed as a PF, Odom or any legit sized PF is fine by me.
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby therealdeal on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:18 am

That makes a lot more sense, but I think also that the Lakers are probably more high on Kelly than we all think they are. It's the only thing that makes sense.

They must think Kelly is ready to contribute right away because otherwise they would have gone out and gotten another PF.

Harris is probably our 3rd string SF/PF tweener who will not likely see many minutes.
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:44 am

therealdeal wrote:That makes a lot more sense, but I think also that the Lakers are probably more high on Kelly than we all think they are. It's the only thing that makes sense.

They must think Kelly is ready to contribute right away because otherwise they would have gone out and gotten another PF.

Harris is probably our 3rd string SF/PF tweener who will not likely see many minutes.


Well, it's a dog eat dog lineup when it comes to that. Whoever performs will get the minutes. Kelly's skillset is intriguing, and would love for him to be a Ryan Andersen type shooter, but he's not as athletic as I would like. Elias seems like a Carl Landry type of player, short, but physical power forward, but he seems limited and could've been a reason why he fell through the cracks during the draft. It's rare to pick up an undrafted player, let along a drafted player with our luck, that turns out to be a solid contributor, but I don't have much faith in that.

The reason why most of our mindset is like this now is because we're tired of seeing old players fail and our lack of athleticism and shooting for the past couple years. Had this been 08-10, we wouldn't have thought 1 second about these guys. Now we're thinking they can be a solid piece. A late 2nd pick and an undrafted summer league invite. :man10:
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby therealdeal on Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:20 am

Well it's the reality of the situation we're in: we need youth and athleticism and we have nowhere to find it. The Lakers gambled big time on Nash/Howard and they lost that bet.

Now we have no picks and we have no way good way to get them.

I'm not saying Kelly and Harris are great by any means by the way... I think Harris has the tools to be a journeyman, but who knows? And Kelly is a huge question mark with his foot. It's why he fell so far. Who knows? Gambles are what we've got right now...
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby Snakell Beast on Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:48 pm

We have one more roster spot. I want to spend it on someone who can give use quality minutes, experience and the versatility to play the 3 and 4. Lamar is the best guy to fill that role IMO. Because Kobe can go at the 3, and Young can go at the 2 and 3, our roster would be all the more versatile if we added Odom.

I would accept it if we added Marcus Landry or Shawne Williams instead of Odom, because they do offer SOME of the same roster flexibility, I just really like Lamar and I want to see him get some redemption and a shot at one more decent contract. I also genuinely believe he would thrive (not like he did 5 years ago) better than the McBob, Jamison, Murphy, Ratliff types we have added these past few seasons.

Landry and Williams are probably better for D'Antoni's offense, in that they are in their mid 20's and can shoot the 3 better, but Odom is definitely a better ball handler, rebounder and man defender than either one of the those two...plus he is Lamar, who I have a lot of affection for, as well as a sentimental attachment to with this roster.

I feel like Lamar was genuinely heartbroken when we traded him for Chris Paul, and I want to see him get the chance to kind of erase that and move on...recover and redeem himself in the eyes of Laker fans and the sports media overall. I think it would be great for him personally, and at the very least good for this Lakers season.
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:06 pm

One more roster spot? That's news to me. We currently only have 11 signed - not including Kelly.
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:14 pm

Nash / Farmar / Blake
Kobe / Meeks
Young / Johnson
Hill / Harris
Pau / Kaman / Sacre

We have 12 signed. I don't know where to put Harris because I don't know what the FO or coaching thinks he is or can play.

Every indication is Kelly will be signed for whatever reason. I don't agree that line of thinking, but it is what it is.

That leaves the 14th spot. Will it be a SF or a PF? Knowing what Harris would play would help in knowing what the FO is looking for with the last spot. (We usually only roll with 14)
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Re: Lakers Reach out to Lamar Odom

Postby lakerfan2 on Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:20 pm

Ah, forgot about Ears. ESPN has Harris listed as backup PF, they also put Pau as PF, but he'll be playing C.
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