Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby King of Clutch on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:41 am

you all realize that kobe averages 5 assts right? How is that possible if he doesn't pass the ball? Simple logic, so easy a caveman can do it. He's actually passing the ball much more than he ever has before. In his ENTIRE career he's never had to share pg responsibilities with a pg who dominates the ball like nash, who by the way averages 8.3 apg. While kobe is still maintaining his 5apg average. Please, stop this nonsense.
User avatar
King of Clutch

 
Posts: 1363
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:00 am

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby Congo Cash on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:43 am

Kobe playing PG is a disaster...

He will just be a TO machine, and will only tire/foul out trying to guard the Russell Westbrooks, Tony Parkers, and the Chris Pauls of the league... By the start of the PO, the gas will be empty...

Why would anyone make one of the best scorers ever a freaking PG, Steve Nash is there for a reason... What's next, asking Steve Blake to guard the paint or Dwight Howard to shoot 3's... :bang:

Dwight never passes and no one is complaining...
- insert signature here -
User avatar
Congo Cash

 
Posts: 4489
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:58 am
Location: Philippines

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby therealdeal on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:04 am

^ What are you talking about?...

Did you watch the game? Kobe played point only from the "idea" that he passed the ball more. He was playing through the post, not off the dribble like Nash. He wasn't dribble penetrating, he was orchestrating from the mid-post. This is actually the most efficient and effective spot for him, so it made the game a lot easier. Couple that with guys cutting and moving off the ball for once and he seemed to "play PG". He wasn't actually playing PG. The style of basketball we played yesterday wouldn't really amount to him tiring himself out the way you're talking about.
Stu : "Yeah, that's an old fashioned whoopin'."
therealdeal
CL Global Moderator
 
Posts: 36934
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:03 pm

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby ElginTheGreat on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:18 am

therealdeal wrote:
Blahdeh Deebatz wrote:Why are people equating Kobe passing the ball with Kobe becoming the point guard? Do people know that all 5 players can pass the basketball, not just the PG?


Sigh. Of course.

But one of the biggest benefits, at least for me, of us bringing in Nash was his ability to create offense for others. Finally, Kobe would be free to just shoot and he wouldn't have to be the teams' best scorer, facilitator, and defender any more. Kobe took advantage of Nash's presence and his shooting percentage reflected that.

Also, he was passing the ball! He was averaging around 5 assists a game. I'm not sure how that ranks among shooting guards, but that's not bad at all.

Naturally, I have no problems with Kobe helping create offense for his teammates. But I think people are overlooking the cutting and movement of his teammates as well as just the energy the other guys were playing with.

I am concerned about Kobe, as usual, having to pretty much our best at everything out there. Kobe should, and pretty much does, get the ball to teammates when they have scoring opportunities. But Nash should be the primary facilitator.
User avatar
ElginTheGreat

 
Posts: 2333
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:53 pm

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby ElginTheGreat on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:19 am

therealdeal wrote:^ What are you talking about?...

Did you watch the game? Kobe played point only from the "idea" that he passed the ball more. He was playing through the post, not off the dribble like Nash. He wasn't dribble penetrating, he was orchestrating from the mid-post. This is actually the most efficient and effective spot for him, so it made the game a lot easier. Couple that with guys cutting and moving off the ball for once and he seemed to "play PG". He wasn't actually playing PG. The style of basketball we played yesterday wouldn't really amount to him tiring himself out the way you're talking about.



Ehhh. I don't know.

I see your point and want to believe that, but it's the combination of having to be the best scorer, defender, and facilitator that worries me.
User avatar
ElginTheGreat

 
Posts: 2333
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:53 pm

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby therealdeal on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:33 am

ElginTheGreat wrote:
therealdeal wrote:^ What are you talking about?...

Did you watch the game? Kobe played point only from the "idea" that he passed the ball more. He was playing through the post, not off the dribble like Nash. He wasn't dribble penetrating, he was orchestrating from the mid-post. This is actually the most efficient and effective spot for him, so it made the game a lot easier. Couple that with guys cutting and moving off the ball for once and he seemed to "play PG". He wasn't actually playing PG. The style of basketball we played yesterday wouldn't really amount to him tiring himself out the way you're talking about.



Ehhh. I don't know.

I see your point and want to believe that, but it's the combination of having to be the best scorer, defender, and facilitator that worries me.

He's not the best facilitator, that's Nash. Leading the team in assists for a night, doesn't make him the best facilitator.

And it's not about him defending the best players and shutting them down. If he can defend them and force them into situations where we can help effectively that's fine too. We just need him focused on that end.
Stu : "Yeah, that's an old fashioned whoopin'."
therealdeal
CL Global Moderator
 
Posts: 36934
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:03 pm

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby Blahdeh Deebatz on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:43 am

There seems to be a whole chicken and the egg debate here going on. Does Kobe pass because his teammates are playing better, or do his teammates play better when he passes?

I'll give you guys a simple, concrete measurement that I look for in a game to see how selfish Kobe is playing: how many times does Kobe shoot a contested shot within the first 12 seconds of the shot clock. It's really simple. When Kobe comes down the floor and shoots the ball with a man in his face within the first 12 seconds of the shot clock, he's not giving the offense a chance to run or giving good opportunities to his teammates. I'm fine with Kobe taking contested shots, only as long as that's a last resort and in the last 8 seconds of the shot clock. I've seen games where Kobe goes into chuck mode and starts shooting contested shots with about 18 seconds on the shot clock before the big men can set up or the offense has a chance to run. When he does that, his teammates don't play as well IMHO. I've seen Pau go several minutes up and down the court without even touching the ball. That's not smart basketball if you're trying to get Pau going.

When Kobe's teammates want him to be a willing passer, I interpret that as them wanting him to stop chucking the ball early in the shot clock. Give the other guys a chance to touch the ball. To me, it has nothing to do with Kobe being a facilitator or trying to be a point guard. He just has to give the offense time to run and stop shooting early in the shot clock. His assists will naturally go up when he does this, and he doesn't even have to change anything else.
User avatar
Blahdeh Deebatz

 
Posts: 1271
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:02 am

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby ElginTheGreat on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:55 am

Blahdeh Deebatz wrote:There seems to be a whole chicken and the egg debate here going on. Does Kobe pass because his teammates are playing better, or do his teammates play better when he passes?

I'll give you guys a simple, concrete measurement that I look for in a game to see how selfish Kobe is playing: how many times does Kobe shoot a contested shot within the first 12 seconds of the shot clock. It's really simple. When Kobe comes down the floor and shoots the ball with a man in his face within the first 12 seconds of the shot clock, he's not giving the offense a chance to run or giving good opportunities to his teammates. I'm fine with Kobe taking contested shots, only as long as that's a last resort and in the last 8 seconds of the shot clock. I've seen games where Kobe goes into chuck mode and starts shooting contested shots with about 18 seconds on the shot clock before the big men can set up or the offense has a chance to run. When he does that, his teammates don't play as well IMHO. I've seen Pau go several minutes up and down the court without even touching the ball. That's not smart basketball if you're trying to get Pau going.

When Kobe's teammates want him to be a willing passer, I interpret that as them wanting him to stop chucking the ball early in the shot clock. Give the other guys a chance to touch the ball. To me, it has nothing to do with Kobe being a facilitator or trying to be a point guard. He just has to give the offense time to run and stop shooting early in the shot clock. His assists will naturally go up when he does this, and he doesn't even have to change anything else.


Now that is an interesting aspect that I will start looking for when I watch the games.
User avatar
ElginTheGreat

 
Posts: 2333
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:53 pm

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby vmor on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:34 pm

Blahdeh Deebatz wrote:I'll give you guys a simple, concrete measurement that I look for in a game to see how selfish Kobe is playing: how many times does Kobe shoot a contested shot within the first 12 seconds of the shot clock.

Have to look at it from that point of view. Sounds like a great indicator!
User avatar
vmor

 
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:36 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby phoenixrisingla on Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:49 pm

Kobe prefers his teammates as accurate shooters.
Image
User avatar
phoenixrisingla

 
Posts: 2276
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:49 am
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA!

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby tttttada on Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:36 pm

Blahdeh Deebatz wrote:There seems to be a whole chicken and the egg debate here going on. Does Kobe pass because his teammates are playing better, or do his teammates play better when he passes?

I'll give you guys a simple, concrete measurement that I look for in a game to see how selfish Kobe is playing: how many times does Kobe shoot a contested shot within the first 12 seconds of the shot clock. It's really simple. When Kobe comes down the floor and shoots the ball with a man in his face within the first 12 seconds of the shot clock, he's not giving the offense a chance to run or giving good opportunities to his teammates. I'm fine with Kobe taking contested shots, only as long as that's a last resort and in the last 8 seconds of the shot clock. I've seen games where Kobe goes into chuck mode and starts shooting contested shots with about 18 seconds on the shot clock before the big men can set up or the offense has a chance to run. When he does that, his teammates don't play as well IMHO. I've seen Pau go several minutes up and down the court without even touching the ball. That's not smart basketball if you're trying to get Pau going.

When Kobe's teammates want him to be a willing passer, I interpret that as them wanting him to stop chucking the ball early in the shot clock. Give the other guys a chance to touch the ball. To me, it has nothing to do with Kobe being a facilitator or trying to be a point guard. He just has to give the offense time to run and stop shooting early in the shot clock. His assists will naturally go up when he does this, and he doesn't even have to change anything else.



I agree, since when has it become mandatory for Kobe to jack up 3-point heat-checks after two consecutive made jumpshots? I hate that. The FG% of those shots must be in the 10-15% range.

If you take away "chuck-mode" from Kobe's game, he would be the undisputed GOAT. There really is no point in discussing this since it is impossible for Kobe to change after 17 years. But it is very frustrating as a fan to watch.
tttttada

 
Posts: 983
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:49 pm

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby Nikez on Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:53 pm

tttttada wrote:
Blahdeh Deebatz wrote:There seems to be a whole chicken and the egg debate here going on. Does Kobe pass because his teammates are playing better, or do his teammates play better when he passes?

I'll give you guys a simple, concrete measurement that I look for in a game to see how selfish Kobe is playing: how many times does Kobe shoot a contested shot within the first 12 seconds of the shot clock. It's really simple. When Kobe comes down the floor and shoots the ball with a man in his face within the first 12 seconds of the shot clock, he's not giving the offense a chance to run or giving good opportunities to his teammates. I'm fine with Kobe taking contested shots, only as long as that's a last resort and in the last 8 seconds of the shot clock. I've seen games where Kobe goes into chuck mode and starts shooting contested shots with about 18 seconds on the shot clock before the big men can set up or the offense has a chance to run. When he does that, his teammates don't play as well IMHO. I've seen Pau go several minutes up and down the court without even touching the ball. That's not smart basketball if you're trying to get Pau going.

When Kobe's teammates want him to be a willing passer, I interpret that as them wanting him to stop chucking the ball early in the shot clock. Give the other guys a chance to touch the ball. To me, it has nothing to do with Kobe being a facilitator or trying to be a point guard. He just has to give the offense time to run and stop shooting early in the shot clock. His assists will naturally go up when he does this, and he doesn't even have to change anything else.



I agree, since when has it become mandatory for Kobe to jack up 3-point heat-checks after two consecutive made jumpshots? I hate that. The FG% of those shots must be in the 10-15% range.

If you take away "chuck-mode" from Kobe's game, he would be the undisputed GOAT. There really is no point in discussing this since it is impossible for Kobe to change after 17 years. But it is very frustrating as a fan to watch.

If you take away kobe's "chuck mode" our franchise has 5 less championships.
Before long, someone recognized Phil Jackson sitting in the front seat, and then the rocks began to fly. Revelers pelted the bus and shook it, mocking the Lakers at their lowest moment.


It was painful,” Lakers forward Pau Gasol(notes) said. “It is a feeling that I want to keep in my mind for every single minute that I’m out there playing them.
User avatar
Nikez

 
Posts: 1577
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:29 pm

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby tttttada on Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:15 pm

^ No, his other strengths lead us to those chips.

There's a fine line between chucking and being aggressive.
tttttada

 
Posts: 983
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:49 pm

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby Congo Cash on Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:14 pm

therealdeal wrote:^ What are you talking about?...

Did you watch the game? Kobe played point only from the "idea" that he passed the ball more. He was playing through the post, not off the dribble like Nash. He wasn't dribble penetrating, he was orchestrating from the mid-post. This is actually the most efficient and effective spot for him, so it made the game a lot easier. Couple that with guys cutting and moving off the ball for once and he seemed to "play PG". He wasn't actually playing PG. The style of basketball we played yesterday wouldn't really amount to him tiring himself out the way you're talking about.

Actually no, but that's irrelevant...

Was talking about some people on this forum only looking at the box score then when they see Kobe has only like 2 assists they are like OMG BALLHOG WHY YOU NOT PASS?! Forum head coaches... :man11:

And yes, I hate Kobe's heat checks too... :man10:
- insert signature here -
User avatar
Congo Cash

 
Posts: 4489
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:58 am
Location: Philippines

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby therealdeal on Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:18 pm

:phone:
Stu : "Yeah, that's an old fashioned whoopin'."
therealdeal
CL Global Moderator
 
Posts: 36934
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:03 pm

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby dak22 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:33 pm

tttttada wrote:^ No, his other strengths lead us to those chips.

There's a fine line between chucking and being aggressive.


Agreed, just look at our last championship.

No one will remember him going 6/24 in a loss. They'll remember him grabing 15 boards in a win against our historic rivals.
dak22

 
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:45 pm

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby R24ADY on Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:58 pm

Polpols, Kobe is deadly posting up where he could create oppurtunities for his teamates to have open looks and saving his energy at crunch time. Nash isn't young to run and we could save also during important stretches of the game. What's important is they slowly solved the puzzle. :bow:
Gasol also said he would remember the team's hectic exit from TD Banknorth Garden after the Game 6 loss.
A mob of Celtics fans pounded the Lakers' bus with their fists and shouted out expletives. Some revelers threw rocks and chased the bus down the street.
"It's something that I'm going to keep in mind all year long until we get there again," Gasol said.
User avatar
R24ADY

 
Posts: 149
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:52 am

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby ElginTheGreat on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:01 pm

Honestly, the hows and whys don't really matter at this point. Everyone seemed to play with a lot more energy with Kobe facilitating. WE have got to just stick with what appears to be working.
User avatar
ElginTheGreat

 
Posts: 2333
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:53 pm

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby tttttada on Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:40 pm

The question is: Will (not can, because we know he can) Kobe maintain this style of basketball? History says no, and Kobe himself admits it's not his natural style, but I keep my fingers crossed.
tttttada

 
Posts: 983
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:49 pm

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby Snakell Beast on Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:43 am

tttttada wrote:The question is: Will (not can, because we know he can) Kobe maintain this style of basketball? History says no, and Kobe himself admits it's not his natural style, but I keep my fingers crossed.


Kobe seems to be coming around to a different role, if you listen to his words. Him responding to a tweet that he needs to pass more as "100% right" is a huge development. His statements about being open to anything, and about everyone holding each other accountable and playing a different role, seem to also move in that direction. I think Kobe has accepted that if he really wants to turn this season around, he needs to adapt to a new style. Also, I think Steve Nash has accepted that he is better for this team as a secondary distributor and an offensive weapon. It's so weird. This team is at its best when every player, AND THE COACH, sacrifices what they are used to and moves out of their comfort zone. It seems so fitting. Here's to hoping we have learned our lesson and are set to make a big run! :man1: :jam2:
The End is nigh. Time for a total Cut and Shuffle. Kobe contract was a mistake...time to avoid making more. The future is here, whether we want it to be or not. An era is over, but for the death rattle, and it's time for the cycle to begin anew. Growth and change are scary and painful, but alas...nothing worth achieving comes easily.
User avatar
Snakell Beast

 
Posts: 1866
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 8:54 pm
Location: Ithaca, NY

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby Maluco Beleza on Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:36 am

seems he has to stick with it at this point unless he wants to miss the playoffs?
User avatar
Maluco Beleza

 
Posts: 1328
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 6:56 pm

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby Cleansed on Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:46 am

If Kobe is being depended upon as your primary play maker (regardless of his technical position) then what role is Steve Nash going to play?

Wins are nice but taking away from a players strength in order to slap a band aid on the imbalance of the team is not a permanent solution.

I'm not BLAMING Nash (clearly he is the best option at PG) but "Steve Nash - Spot Up Shooter" wasn't the role i envisioned for him upon arrival. I thought he'd be orchestrating an offense that had a wealth of weapons and specifically appeasing Dwight Howard and allowing Kobe to be Kobe.
"The media's the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power. Because they control the minds of the masses."
You do not see things as they are, you see things as you are.
User avatar
Cleansed

 
Posts: 3413
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:40 pm

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby MC on Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:52 am

This debate is laughable.....

it's real easy

Players move off ball (off ball screens, cuts to the hoop) than the ball doesn;t stick

Players stand around or just slide around the perimeter and the ball sticks and becomes all ISOs

This has to do with all 5 pieces and how they work toegther............ not the whims of a single player from game to game.

There has been a hole lot of standing around between Brown from Last year and MDA's moron ball........ get back to FUNDAMENTAL basketball instead of gimmick ball and all of a sudden we have player movement and the ball finding guys....

This is not rocket science here................
"If the wolf is the strength of the pack, the pack is the strength of the wolf"
User avatar
MC

 
Posts: 4374
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:54 pm

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby Snakell Beast on Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:52 pm

The problem I see is that Steve Nash simply isn't capable of breaking defenses down with the ball anymore. All teams have to do is play him tight, and he can't pass or shoot effectively, because he doesn't have the lift or speed to either get a shot off over the defense, or get around a double team for an accurate pass or dribble penetration. In games when teams play off of him, in more of a zone configuration, they know he will still pass the ball 95% of the time and in the 5% of the time he shoots, he is so much more tired because of his age that his shot is much flatter than in years past.

Steve is going to have to be a spot up shooter who facilitates extra ball movement as a fulcrum in the offense. His role as the primary playmaker for other players is over, largely due to his age but also because the talent level on this team dictates that the distributor break defenses down one-on-one to draw defensive rotations as opposed to traditional pick-and-roll sets which don't work when the defense plays a post heavy zone.

Look at Jason Kidd. After turning 38, he has adjusted his role in the last two seasons to that of a spot up shooter who facilitates ball movement, as opposed to the primary distributor. The league is simply too athletic for a 38+ year old player to be the focal point of ball movement in a playoff team's offense. Kobe can provide much more value as a distributor with this loaded roster. Nash provides much more space shooting outside than Kobe, and he can still distribute the ball for small amounts of time, and also facilitate ball movement along the perimeter when teams collapse into the paint.

The Lakers need to keep doing what they are doing. It is a sustainable path to the Playoffs and championship contention.
The End is nigh. Time for a total Cut and Shuffle. Kobe contract was a mistake...time to avoid making more. The future is here, whether we want it to be or not. An era is over, but for the death rattle, and it's time for the cycle to begin anew. Growth and change are scary and painful, but alas...nothing worth achieving comes easily.
User avatar
Snakell Beast

 
Posts: 1866
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 8:54 pm
Location: Ithaca, NY

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:16 pm

It works, but I wonder what the FO is thinking, paying Nash 10 million a year to do what Kidd does for the vet's minimum.
Vi Veri Vniversum Vivus Vici
V.V.V.V.V.

 
Posts: 2844
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 11:59 pm
Location: Hollywood

PreviousNext

Return to Lakers Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Barnstable, KareemTheGreat33 and 15 guests

cron
Advertise Here | Privacy Policy | ©2008 Sculu Sports. Come Strong.