Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:10 pm

Snakell Beast wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:All this is to say, the Lakers aren't simply winning because Kobe passed the ball. They are winning because the team decided that the actually played for the Lakers and not the D-fenders.


A couple of semi-fair arguments, but you missed the main point. No one is saying the Lakers defense hasn't been the main problem, or that our rebounding effort and hustle hasn't been there, but a lot of that goes back to incentive. Tradtitionally, and currently, players are more engaged, and have more incentive to play harder, when they feel they are rewarded for their effort with a consistent portion of the offense.

Aside from the fact that a more efficient offense limits the opponents fast breaks off of misses and turnovers, gives the defense more time to get set and saves energy for the defensive end of the floor...the main reason Kobe as a facilitator works so well on this team is that is motivates players to play harder ON BOTH ENDS, and as they score more their confidence goes up and they do everything better.

Kobe needs to adopt a PASS FIRST attitude, and read defenses to set others up. Being a willing passer is good. Being an EAGER passer is MUCH BETTER. Kobe has conclusively proven this season that when he plays pass first, the team is excellent. When he plays score first, we are dreadful.

Passing the ball at the start of a possession in order to set up getting the ball back closer to the basket later on, or passing out of a double trap or out of desperation at the end of a failed drive while in the air (which constitutes 80% of Kobe's passes for most of his career) does technically count as passing the ball, but it is vastly different and FAR less effective than probing the defense to set up open teammates.

Kobe needs to design all of his energy on the offensive end around getting TEAMMATES open shots. Only THEN will you see more movement by his teammates. This is due, largely but not exclusively, to the fact that Kobe has been such a large part of every offensive set that his teammates haven't felt they would be rewarded for expending a lot of energy rotating to get open, and partly because they didn't want to work hard to get open and then have to run back quickly on defense after Kobe got in the air and turned the ball over trying to bail out his bad possession by desperately chucking it to a teammate.

Kobe as a score first player with a high volume of shots and a large portion of the offense is the unsustainable and ineffective strategy. Kobe as a pass first facilitator who only takes wide open shots is VASTLY more sustainable and effective. Anyone that claims otherwise is either a Kobe Jocker (at the expense of the Lakers success) or just doesn't know basketball.


Excellent post. Agred 100%.
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Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:14 pm

"Snakell Beast"
A couple of semi-fair arguments, but you missed the main point. No one is saying the Lakers defense hasn't been the main problem, or that our rebounding effort and hustle hasn't been there, but a lot of that goes back to incentive. Tradtitionally, and currently, players are more engaged, and have more incentive to play harder, when they feel they are rewarded for their effort with a consistent portion of the offense.

Forgive me for not buying that a team of Alpha and former number one players on other teams need incentive to play with energy. Ron didn't need incentive to bust his butt every game. Kobe didn't. I am not saying Kobe or Ron or anyone was playing great all around ball just that players were getting "touches" all along.

Aside from the fact that a more efficient offense limits the opponents fast breaks off of misses and turnovers, gives the defense more time to get set and saves energy for the defensive end of the floor...the main reason Kobe as a facilitator works so well on this team is that is motivates players to play harder ON BOTH ENDS, and as they score more their confidence goes up and they do everything better.

If you followed my points all along then you would realize that I have never disagreed with the notion of the lakers being more effecient is the goal. When is that not the goal? Again, the point has been for most running in and saying "Kobe needs to do this" is that it is solely because Kobe is "trusting" (yes this crap again) his teammates more and thus the Lakers are winning. No, I contend it is because the teammates are not spectating and watching one on one basketball. Stu, James,that coach dude with James and even Phil has stated many times that guys cannot stand around and watch the game. I personally am sick of hearing that these dudes need a certain amount of shots to play harder on both ends of the floor. I guess then it would be OK of Kobe played less intent because he is only taking 10 shots? By the logic I'm hearing that would make sense since after all he is a scorer.

Kobe needs to adopt a PASS FIRST attitude, and read defenses to set others up. Being a willing passer is good. Being an EAGER passer is MUCH BETTER. Kobe has conclusively proven this season that when he plays pass first, the team is excellent. When he plays score first, we are dreadful.

Here is what I find funny. There have been a ton of game where Kobe (playing 40 minutes a game) has been out to get Dwight or Pau set up in the game. Post after post after post and the defensive end still stinks. The fans would scream how Kobe needs to take more shots because Dwight "stonehands Kwame" Howard and Pau "gasoft the vagina" Gasol can't do anything right. Then lets not forget Metta "trade this stupid guy who thinks he is Lebron" World Peace. And there is Kobe still getting guys involved, still passing only taking shots at the rim with one on one. But then the team is down by 15 and all the fans are screaming for Kobe to SHOOT THE DAMN BALL and lets not forget my favorite "F'n Jimmy ruined us with these crappy players." Kobe passes the ball when guys move has been my point well before we won a few games.

Passing the ball at the start of a possession in order to set up getting the ball back closer to the basket later on, or passing out of a double trap or out of desperation at the end of a failed drive while in the air (which constitutes 80% of Kobe's passes for most of his career) does technically count as passing the ball, but it is vastly different and FAR less effective than probing the defense to set up open teammates.

You are right. The problem is they usually pass the ball to Kobe who happens to be one of two (MWP the other) who continues to fight for position where they want the ball. What happens when he gets the ball in his spot? No one moves. The stand and spectate. I guess this is a good time to say that some would say its because he will shoot it anyway. Of course, that does not explain why no one is going to the rim for a rebound if they "know" Kobe will shot it anyway. How come Jordan Hill and Earl Clark can make that happen but the other guys can't? The truth is Kobe is always, and I did say "Always", looking for the best shot. His ego, yup I agree he has it, tells him that 1 on 1 he is the best shot and 90% time I'd say he is right. However, When Kobe goes to make his move the guys should shift like basic basketball. Is it not ironic that all the reports have said that the Lakers are now playing just "basic ball"?

Kobe needs to design all of his energy on the offensive end around getting TEAMMATES open shots. Only THEN will you see more movement by his teammates. This is due, largely but not exclusively, to the fact that Kobe has been such a large part of every offensive set that his teammates haven't felt they would be rewarded for expending a lot of energy rotating to get open, and partly because they didn't want to work hard to get open and then have to run back quickly on defense after Kobe got in the air and turned the ball over trying to bail out his bad possession by desperately chucking it to a teammate.

This baffles me. The arguably best scorer to ever play the game should not actually score. What I hear you saying is that Kobe should lower his expectations of his teammates coming to work and busting their a**es to win a ring. Is that what Lakers fans have decided? If that is the case then Kobe should look strictly for the guys and only shoot when he is wide open. Hell a setshot is like money for Kobe anyway. Nevermind that 1/5 of his shots (yes I made the stat up but I am sure its close) come from his teammates tossing him the ball with less than 7 seconds to go on the clock so he has to shoot a more difficult shot which counts against him. But hey, that isn't the point, right? I find it interesting that his teammates have been leaving him to bail them out all season but that seems to be forgotten all together.

Kobe as a score first player with a high volume of shots and a large portion of the offense is the unsustainable and ineffective strategy. Kobe as a pass first facilitator who only takes wide open shots is VASTLY more sustainable and effective. Anyone that claims otherwise is either a Kobe Jocker (at the expense of the Lakers success) or just doesn't know basketball.

Well that is an intriguing statement all together. Tis true volume shooting isn't always great way to play. I suppose if we ignore circumstances of the games and just go by sheer numbers it would be remarkable how a 13-31 night could look detrimental to the team. Unless you watched the game and saw that 12 of those shots came in a furious 4th quarter come back because the rest of the team was 15-60 on the night (including 0-20 from 3 and 9 of 27 from the free throw line). Oh before you go and look up which game that is from don't bother I just made the numbers up. Why? Because they are pretty damn accurate to real games we have had.

Let me try again, Kobe as "pass-first" guy or a "shoot-first" guy are both wrong. Some posters have already stated that this is only going to work for so long because Kobe can't be "decoy" all the time. How many games did we blow this year because of missed rebounds, missed free throws, bad execution and horrible defensive rotations? 2 of those (rebonds and free throws) aren't Kobe's fualt. The other two he has a hand in for sure. My point is this, in order for the team to be effective Kobe has to attack the other team like he has done these last two games. You guys are screaming "rah rah he passed" while forgetting the players are finally moving without the ball to get the pass. Is it really a shock that Nash has been a turnover machine? The dude is use to playing with guys who moved without the ball. Why did people love Ariza (and now Clark)? Because they cosntantly move without the ball and make cuts. Once Dwight and Pau started playing aggressive it opened the floor. Once guys started moving it opened the game. Kobe hasn't changed much he still believes every shot he takes is going in. What he has done is attacked with the intent of taking what the other team is giving us.

I wonder what you guys will say when a team sags off Kobe and takes away the other guys letting Kobe score? Yes, that is what defenses will do once they catch on that Kobe is looking for teammates. Is everyone going to yell for him to stop at shot 15? How about when he turns it over trying to get Pau or Dwight the ball? I love the GD thread where I see the same posters who are claiming "yea Kobe this is what I want" start calling him a dumb*** for passing to stupid Gasoft or Mettaworthless.

I'll take the insult of being either a Kobe jocker or a guy who doesn't know basketball if it makes you happy. However, since I have been saying it is about off ball movement and communication on defense all season long I'll stick with my level of ignorance. Especially if we lose a game and Kobe played the exact same way then everyone turns on him again. In my world it is about seeing that the "TEAM" has finally raised their expectations to Kobe's and not the other way around. Afterall he is the one with 5 rings playing his style of basketball.
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Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:19 pm

Cleansed wrote:What i find interesting (and conflicting personally) about your post is that superficially i agree with it. Players who aren't wholly focused upon their job may indeed need to be force fed in order to become engaged. I dont like it but if it produces wins you cant argue with it during this season (it's something that can be fixed during the off season or via trades during the season i suppose). When one delves deeper though it's entirely troublesome as , at the core, what is being said is we need to restrict our best weapons strength for the sake of the team which in my opinion suggest mental weakness on the part of other players. We need to make Kobe the scorer less of a scorer and more of a facilitator.....

despite having Steve "2x MVP" Nash on the roster.

All of the cutting and moving that players should do when Kobe makes a move that leads to their scoring and his assist they should also be doing when Nash handles the rock. Nash should be orchestrating this offense. Success with Kobe running the virtual PG position should be duplicated with Nash running the point as a true PG.

2 games is too small of a sample size but i am really looking forward to seeing more of Steves play over the next 10 games. Simply put - Entirely too much is being asked of Kobe with a team of this caliber in my opinion. Sure he will accept the challenge but he shouldn't have to.

Exactly. I don't see anyone screaming that "OMG players are better when Nash passes the ball. We have to of the best passers of the ball in the game on our team. Nash is one of the greatest in NBA and Pau is one of the best big man passers in todays game. Both guys are unselfish and look for others yet we haven't found success. Why? Because guys aren't hitting shots, being aggressive and moving into better positions to get better shots.
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Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby 7cody on Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:36 pm

Kobe doesn't need to be just a passer, or just a scorer. He just needs to do what the defense gives him. The problem is, he forces his way to his 30 PPG even when the defense isn't giving it to him, and he's good enough to do it, which itself is impressive (some may argue that him wanting personal glory isn't necessarily bad either, or that he is cashing in personal glory at the expense of the team). The last couple of games he has been willing to sacrifice field goal stats in order to attack the defense. However, the beauty is, the defense will try to adjust, and instead Kobe will be in situations where he should shoot more. Instead of going for 30 PPG, he will probably average less, but his efficiency will skyrocket.

I doubt Kobe wants to score 18 PPG on a very high %. That's not what he wants to be.

I wonder if Kobe will continue to sacrifice in order to win. Personally, I don't think him wanting to average a high PPG is necessarily bad. His legacy is important as well and he wants to be known as one of the best to ever play the game.

Edit: Perhaps he just needs to adjust his combination a bit, sacrifice just enough to keep winning.
Last edited by 7cody on Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby Maluco Beleza on Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:37 pm

7cody wrote:Kobe doesn't need to be just a passer, or just a scorer. He just needs to do what the defense gives him. The problem is, he forces his way to his 30 PPG even when the defense isn't giving it to him, and he's good enough to do it, which itself is impressive (some may argue that him wanting personal glory isn't necessarily bad either, or that he is cashing in personal glory at the expense of the team). The last couple of games he has been willing to sacrifice field goal stats in order to attack the defense. However, the beauty is, the defense will try to adjust, and instead Kobe will be in situations where he should shoot more. Instead of going for 30 PPG, he will probably average less, but his efficiency will skyrocket.

I doubt Kobe wants to score 18 PPG on a very high %. That's not what he wants to be.


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Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:31 pm

7cody wrote:Kobe doesn't need to be just a passer, or just a scorer. He just needs to do what the defense gives him. The problem is, he forces his way to his 30 PPG even when the defense isn't giving it to him, and he's good enough to do it, which itself is impressive (some may argue that him wanting personal glory isn't necessarily bad either, or that he is cashing in personal glory at the expense of the team). The last couple of games he has been willing to sacrifice field goal stats in order to attack the defense. However, the beauty is, the defense will try to adjust, and instead Kobe will be in situations where he should shoot more. Instead of going for 30 PPG, he will probably average less, but his efficiency will skyrocket.

I doubt Kobe wants to score 18 PPG on a very high %. That's not what he wants to be.

I wonder if Kobe will continue to sacrifice in order to win. Personally, I don't think him wanting to average a high PPG is necessarily bad. His legacy is important as well and he wants to be known as one of the best to ever play the game.

Edit: Perhaps he just needs to adjust his combination a bit, sacrifice just enough to keep winning.


Yeah, that's all he's doing. Just taking what the defense gives him. Sometimes the defense will dictate that he needs to take 25 shots. But as long as it's within the flow of the offense, i don't have a problem with that. What worries me is when he tries to get his 30 points at the expense of the offense. When he starts to force shots when it's obvious we could manufacture easier baskets if we moved the ball. We can only hope that for the good of the TEAM, Kobe contains his need shoot in volume. I mean he's great but we are a bettter team when he's taking what the D gives him and setting guys up with easy baskets.
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Re: Lakers' teammates prefer Kobe Bryant as a willing passer

Postby Blahdeh Deebatz on Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:51 pm

It's not about Kobe being a passer or a scorer or a facilitator or whatever else is being argued about. It's about the Lakers slowing the game down and running an offense that involves multiple touches. It doesn't matter if Kobe ends up being the facilitator or scorer in the end. The Lakers have plenty of guys that can pass the ball. Kobe doesn't need to be the only facilitator. The Lakers have plenty of guys that can score. Kobe doesn't need to be the scorer. It's just about playing smart.

No Laker should be shooting a contested outside shot within the first 12 seconds of the shot clock. No one. Not Kobe, not Metta, not Meeks. The Lakers are older and slower. They need to slow the game down, run an offense, use their muscle, and get rebounding in place before taking shots. Because they're older, they need to play smarter and work for the best shot possible. Every time Kobe misses a contested outside shot, the other team runs and tries to get an easy bucket on the other end of the floor. The Lakers need to be extra careful about guarding against the other team running on them. Kobe and everyone else need to show greater discipline. That means passing the ball early in the shot clock and running an offense to find the best shot. Whether that's running a high pick and roll with Nash, posting up Kobe, or posting up Gasol/Howard, it doesn't really matter. Just run an offense and slow down the other team's transition game.
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