Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby trodgers on Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:15 am

The complaint is that we have scouts who aren't in a position to do their job.
This complaint is lodged by common fans.
Wait. How are these common fans (we) in a position to judge talent?
This is hypocritical nonsense. Judge them by actions, not pedigree.
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Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby Doc Brown on Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:45 am

Who we draft, who we missed that got chosen after our selection......

2013 - Ryan Kelly............Peyton Siva?
2012 - Robert Sacre.........One of the top 2nd rounders in that draft and we picked him last.
2011 - Morris/Glock.........Isaiah Thomas, Lavoy Allen
2010 - Ebanks/Caracter......We could have won a slam dunk contest with Jeremy Evans, but not games
2009 - Patrick Beverley........Marcus Thornton, Chase Budinger (Who's getting more run these days though?)
2008 - Joe Crawford.........No one is in the league after him
2007 - Critter........Dudley, Chandler, Afflalo, Landry, Davis
- And we draft Marc Gasol after all those guys. He's having a better career than all those guys.
2006 - Farmar........Paul Millsap
2005 - Bynum........That alone paid off in two rings
- Wafer and Turiaf - Ellis and Lou Williams
2004 - Sasha........Varejao
2003 - Cook/Walton.......Barbosa, Mo Williams, Korver
2002 - Chris Jeffries.......Boozer and Scola

Our draft history doesn't warrant the hate that is shelled out. Have we missed on guys? For sure, who hasn't? I wouldn't put us as an elite scouting/drafting team, but we aren't a piss poor one either. We are somewhere in the middle and when you are picking in the late 20s and 2nd round every year, that warrants some slack IMO.

Now if you want to complain about giving up 1st rounders, I'll agree all day with that, but that falls on the FO, not the scouting department. They've done an admirable job IMO.
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Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:20 pm

Doc Brown wrote:Our draft history doesn't warrant the hate that is shelled out. Have we missed on guys? For sure, who hasn't? I wouldn't put us as an elite scouting/drafting team, but we aren't a piss poor one either. We are somewhere in the middle and when you are picking in the late 20s and 2nd round every year, that warrants some slack IMO.

Now if you want to complain about giving up 1st rounders, I'll agree all day with that, but that falls on the FO, not the scouting department. They've done an admirable job IMO.


It's all one thing IMO... You don't need to keep good scouts when you don't value the draft that much.

The real issue the front office has had is understanding when it was over. Phil did and walked away. We should have blown it all up while we still had assets that were worth something. We were a year late it seems and then went after the wrong guy.

The Nash move seemed like a panic move IMO and Howard was a gamble at best..... we don't typically make moves like that without a guarantee that someone will stay.

We are now in a rebuilding process where we don't have assets to trade, we've traded several picks and we are in a financial situation where we are facing the "repeater" tax on top of the other taxes. It seams that long range planning has been replaced by
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Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby revgen on Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:52 pm

^I think those panic moves were motivated partially by Dr Buss' impending death.
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Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:00 pm

^^^^

Panic moves? Are you kidding? Most of the league was pissed off when we acquired Nash and Howard. People thought, "those Lakers did it again" and thought we stole those two guys for nothing. They were considered coups. We were supposed to challenge for a title when we had Kobe, Gasol, Howard and Nash. Where does the notion "panic" come from? We were are always going to mortgage the future with Kobe. Sure in hindsight those moves were bad but when it happened, they were great trades on paper.
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Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby revgen on Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:55 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:^^^^

Panic moves? Are you kidding? Most of the league was pissed off when we acquired Nash and Howard. People thought, "those Lakers did it again" and thought we stole those two guys for nothing. They were considered coups. We were supposed to challenge for a title when we had Kobe, Gasol, Howard and Nash. Where does the notion "panic" come from? We were are always going to mortgage the future with Kobe. Sure in hindsight those moves were bad but when it happened, they were great trades on paper.


1) Dwight Howard didn't want to be in LA. He wanted to go to Brooklyn and play with D-Will. He only came here because Brooklyn wasn't in the cards. We somehow thought that because we were the P&G, that Dwight wouldn't leave. Bad gamble.

2) We traded for Steve Nash, which even I thought wasn't a bad idea at the time, but he was 38 years old and he wasn't and still isn't a player suited for a Mike Brown system. Brown likes to isolate scorers and have role players play off of them. The problem with the Nash trade was giving up all those draft picks for him. Another wager that went south. If we really wanted to get rid of Bynum and wanted a PG, we could have shipped him out for one without sacrificing our future.

3) Brown was eventually fired and Mike D'Antoni hired in part because we wanted a coach who can take advantage of Nash and an attempt to "bring showtime back". Bad idea.

Do you think all of these moves would have been made if Jerry Buss wasn't gravely ill?

I can maybe buy one of those moves being made. But not all three. Mitch typically makes moves slowly and methodically. He's a ditch digger and bricklayer. Not a gunslinger.
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Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby MC on Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:32 am

Rooscooter wrote:
It's all one thing IMO... You don't need to keep good scouts when you don't value the draft that much.



I do believe this is a true statement but I would add to it. I think this with the combination of the new CBA and operating rules is what could be the unraveling of the model the Lakers have used over the years to create their historic level of success.

I do believe the Lakers need to re-look at their platform for success and adjust........with the current operating platform the draft has become significantly more important to a teams long term success. Finding a steal here and there as a later round(s) pick is important in this kind of platform as well....that takes intangibles within scouting to find these kind of guys.....think how the Spurs operate as a good platform in today's NBA.... they use their picks well and have found later round steals over the years that have out produced their draft position....

I personally don't like hearing reports like this.... not necessarily because of what I suspect the long term result will be...rather because IMO it shows a lack of legitimate respect for the craft and the business in general. IMO it is hard to conquer a mountain if you don't respect that mountain and all that pertains to climbing it..... I think that kind of thought process leads and has lead to bad coaching hiring as well........ if you can't see how important scouting can be than how can you judge the importance and differences in coaching and it mixing well with talent?

Rev - I agree as well about those moves......not sure they gamble like that IF the good doctor wasn't in the condition he was leading into that season...... I do think emotion got a little in the way in making those moves and the quick firing of Brown into the season.

basically with the combo of bad coaching hirings with these somewhat desperate swings for a final run it has created a bad situation to climb out of with someone at the helm I think everyone is nervous about leading that climb....and with good reason...... info like this article doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling that's for sure.
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Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby MC on Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:43 am

revgen wrote:
3) Brown was eventually fired and Mike D'Antoni hired in part because we wanted a coach who can take advantage of Nash and an attempt to "bring showtime back". Bad idea.



Oh ya lol .....no doubt

It always bugged me a bit that Doc. Buss used to sday that those Suns teams reminded him of showtime ..... MDA system is NOTHING like showtime other than the transition pace lol ..... the system itself is nowhere near what the Showtime Lakers used.....

the very fact a decision was kind of made on that feel makes me really question the good Doctor's inner basketball knowledge......me thinks his best move was hiring West and allowing him the space to work his magic.... seems to me that Jim has more of an ego about things and the kiss of death....I get the feeling he thinks he has this basketball thing figured out....
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Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:18 am

revgen wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:^^^^

Panic moves? Are you kidding? Most of the league was pissed off when we acquired Nash and Howard. People thought, "those Lakers did it again" and thought we stole those two guys for nothing. They were considered coups. We were supposed to challenge for a title when we had Kobe, Gasol, Howard and Nash. Where does the notion "panic" come from? We were are always going to mortgage the future with Kobe. Sure in hindsight those moves were bad but when it happened, they were great trades on paper.


1) Dwight Howard didn't want to be in LA. He wanted to go to Brooklyn and play with D-Will. He only came here because Brooklyn wasn't in the cards. We somehow thought that because we were the P&G, that Dwight wouldn't leave. Bad gamble.

2) We traded for Steve Nash, which even I thought wasn't a bad idea at the time, but he was 38 years old and he wasn't and still isn't a player suited for a Mike Brown system. Brown likes to isolate scorers and have role players play off of them. The problem with the Nash trade was giving up all those draft picks for him. Another wager that went south. If we really wanted to get rid of Bynum and wanted a PG, we could have shipped him out for one without sacrificing our future.

3) Brown was eventually fired and Mike D'Antoni hired in part because we wanted a coach who can take advantage of Nash and an attempt to "bring showtime back". Bad idea.

Do you think all of these moves would have been made if Jerry Buss wasn't gravely ill?

I can maybe buy one of those moves being made. But not all three. Mitch typically makes moves slowly and methodically. He's a ditch digger and bricklayer. Not a gunslinger.


1) No one knew exactly what Dwight wanted to do. Most assumed he would sign a long term deal with the Lakers as no other superstar who came here actually WANTED to go somewhere else. Hindsight is 20/20. At the time, it was considered a coup. A great deal for the Lakers. We stole the guy and the league was pissed. People said, "Oh boy, here they go again, the Lakers reloaded for another dynasty run."

2) Nash was coming off one of his most productive years before he was traded here. Even though he was 38, he was a guy who never relied on his athleticism but his skills. So most assumed it would carry over at least for a couple of years. His P&R game with Dwight and Gasol was supposed to make us unstoppable. Again, like the Howard trade, the league was pissed and thought we stole him for a couple of late 1st round picks, which are usually worthless.

3) This discussion is not about the coaching hirings. I don't even want to go there. That's a whole different story. I think everyone in the world disagreed with the Mike Brown hiring and then hiring D'Atoni over PJ? :bang:

So I don't see where the team got desparate in the Howard and Nash trades. At the time, they were considered coups. Steals. And the league was pissed. We were supposed to have been ready for another run at titles for a couple of years. With an all time great like Kobe, that's what you had to do anyways. We had no other choice but to try to win right now. I don't see where the panic is in that. They weren't just good trades but great trades for this team. Of course hindsight is 20/20 but at the time, they were great trades.
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Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:19 am

MC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
It's all one thing IMO... You don't need to keep good scouts when you don't value the draft that much.



I do believe this is a true statement but I would add to it. I think this with the combination of the new CBA and operating rules is what could be the unraveling of the model the Lakers have used over the years to create their historic level of success.

I do believe the Lakers need to re-look at their platform for success and adjust........with the current operating platform the draft has become significantly more important to a teams long term success. Finding a steal here and there as a later round(s) pick is important in this kind of platform as well....that takes intangibles within scouting to find these kind of guys.....think how the Spurs operate as a good platform in today's NBA.... they use their picks well and have found later round steals over the years that have out produced their draft position....

I personally don't like hearing reports like this.... not necessarily because of what I suspect the long term result will be...rather because IMO it shows a lack of legitimate respect for the craft and the business in general. IMO it is hard to conquer a mountain if you don't respect that mountain and all that pertains to climbing it..... I think that kind of thought process leads and has lead to bad coaching hiring as well........ if you can't see how important scouting can be than how can you judge the importance and differences in coaching and it mixing well with talent?

Rev - I agree as well about those moves......not sure they gamble like that IF the good doctor wasn't in the condition he was leading into that season...... I do think emotion got a little in the way in making those moves and the quick firing of Brown into the season.

basically with the combo of bad coaching hirings with these somewhat desperate swings for a final run it has created a bad situation to climb out of with someone at the helm I think everyone is nervous about leading that climb....and with good reason...... info like this article doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling that's for sure.


So you didn't like the Howard and Nash deals when they happened?
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Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby revgen on Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:53 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
revgen wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:^^^^

Panic moves? Are you kidding? Most of the league was pissed off when we acquired Nash and Howard. People thought, "those Lakers did it again" and thought we stole those two guys for nothing. They were considered coups. We were supposed to challenge for a title when we had Kobe, Gasol, Howard and Nash. Where does the notion "panic" come from? We were are always going to mortgage the future with Kobe. Sure in hindsight those moves were bad but when it happened, they were great trades on paper.


1) Dwight Howard didn't want to be in LA. He wanted to go to Brooklyn and play with D-Will. He only came here because Brooklyn wasn't in the cards. We somehow thought that because we were the P&G, that Dwight wouldn't leave. Bad gamble.

2) We traded for Steve Nash, which even I thought wasn't a bad idea at the time, but he was 38 years old and he wasn't and still isn't a player suited for a Mike Brown system. Brown likes to isolate scorers and have role players play off of them. The problem with the Nash trade was giving up all those draft picks for him. Another wager that went south. If we really wanted to get rid of Bynum and wanted a PG, we could have shipped him out for one without sacrificing our future.

3) Brown was eventually fired and Mike D'Antoni hired in part because we wanted a coach who can take advantage of Nash and an attempt to "bring showtime back". Bad idea.

Do you think all of these moves would have been made if Jerry Buss wasn't gravely ill?

I can maybe buy one of those moves being made. But not all three. Mitch typically makes moves slowly and methodically. He's a ditch digger and bricklayer. Not a gunslinger.


1) No one knew exactly what Dwight wanted to do. Most assumed he would sign a long term deal with the Lakers as no other superstar who came here actually WANTED to go somewhere else. Hindsight is 20/20. At the time, it was considered a coup. A great deal for the Lakers. We stole the guy and the league was pissed. People said, "Oh boy, here they go again, the Lakers reloaded for another dynasty run."

2) Nash was coming off one of his most productive years before he was traded here. Even though he was 38, he was a guy who never relied on his athleticism but his skills. So most assumed it would carry over at least for a couple of years. His P&R game with Dwight and Gasol was supposed to make us unstoppable. Again, like the Howard trade, the league was pissed and thought we stole him for a couple of late 1st round picks, which are usually worthless.

3) This discussion is not about the coaching hirings. I don't even want to go there. That's a whole different story. I think everyone in the world disagreed with the Mike Brown hiring and then hiring D'Atoni over PJ? :bang:

So I don't see where the team got desparate in the Howard and Nash trades. At the time, they were considered coups. Steals. And the league was pissed. We were supposed to have been ready for another run at titles for a couple of years. With an all time great like Kobe, that's what you had to do anyways. We had no other choice but to try to win right now. I don't see where the panic is in that. They weren't just good trades but great trades for this team. Of course hindsight is 20/20 but at the time, they were great trades.


1) Exactly. That's why it's a gamble. But we do know that the Lakers were not his first choice and he preferred another destination besides coming here to play with Nash, Kobe, and Gasol. That's a red flag.

2) In terms of PER, it was his 2nd least productive season in 11 years up to that point. The only other season in which he had a worse outing was 2008-2009, when he was playing with Shaq and Terry Porter. I will admit that he had a pretty good season for a 37-38 year old. But it doesn't change the fact that we paid for a 38 year old player and took a huge risk on him by dealing away our draft picks.

3) When Roo mentioned "long range planning has been replaced", I'm assuming he's talking about all moves, not just players. So I don't see how coaching can't be included in the conversation.

Acquiring Nash for draft picks looked like a good deal at the time. Acquiring a future HOF guard without giving up any of our key roster players. But a steal? No. It wasn't Kwame for Pau in his prime. Acquiring Bynum for Howard? In retrospect, yes, since Bynum didn't play 1 game. At the time, it was one all-star for another. Remember that it was Bynum who was healthy throughout 2011-2012 and it was D12 who having back issues. Dealing away Brown and picking up D'Antoni was the last straw.

I wasn't so keen on the moves myself at the time except for the Nash trade, which was done before Bynum was traded and Mike Brown was fired. Even though I wasn't sure how Nash would fit into a Mike Brown system, I figured having a vet like Nash aboard would help to take the pressure off Kobe and improve our spacing with his shooting ability. When I discovered that Bynum was traded for Howard, who didn't even sign an extension when he came here (something Bynum and his agent had offered to do), I wondered why we'd even bother to give up draft picks for Nash if the plan was to ship out Bynum out all along. We could have acquired a pretty good PG for him without mortgaging the future.

Bottom line, too many gambles at once.
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Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:41 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
So you didn't like the Howard and Nash deals when they happened?


No…. and most of the reasons I stated at the time have come been exactly right. 38 year old Nash, who was obviously fading, on a team where we have a very ball dominant wing player was a recipe for disaster. Nash is worthless without the ball and Kobe needs the ball to lead the team. Not enough balls. 3 year deal for Nash was nuts but the only way to get him. Huge panic move and one done without looking at the composition of the team.

….. as for my thoughts on Howard both before and after the deal…. look at my 50+ posts in his dedicated thread. He's a vastly overrated big that has a mentality that is not conducive to being on a winning team. I view this one as a little less of a panic move but we were going to lose Bynum anyway (he was done with the Lakers IMO) so we swung for the fences in hopes that Howard would want to be here and change his ways…… neither was really vetted well obviously. Not figuring that out by the deadline last year and getting at least something for him is the real killer. Gamble that the front of the jersey means more than the back is a losing bet with most of the players these days.
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Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:38 am

Rooscooter wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:
So you didn't like the Howard and Nash deals when they happened?


No…. and most of the reasons I stated at the time have come been exactly right. 38 year old Nash, who was obviously fading, on a team where we have a very ball dominant wing player was a recipe for disaster. Nash is worthless without the ball and Kobe needs the ball to lead the team. Not enough balls. 3 year deal for Nash was nuts but the only way to get him. Huge panic move and one done without looking at the composition of the team.

….. as for my thoughts on Howard both before and after the deal…. look at my 50+ posts in his dedicated thread. He's a vastly overrated big that has a mentality that is not conducive to being on a winning team. I view this one as a little less of a panic move but we were going to lose Bynum anyway (he was done with the Lakers IMO) so we swung for the fences in hopes that Howard would want to be here and change his ways…… neither was really vetted well obviously. Not figuring that out by the deadline last year and getting at least something for him is the real killer. Gamble that the front of the jersey means more than the back is a losing bet with most of the players these days.


I was a bit hesitant about getting Nash myself as I've been complaining about our lack of athleticism ever since 2010 and bringing Nash didn't help that obviously. But he also brought the ability to make Howard and Gasol thrive and let Kobe play off the ball more and conserve some energy. I still think on paper, given that the team wanted to win right now, it was a good trade when it happened. At least on paper.

As for Howard, I was ecstatic. Did you see how excited he was when he was first interviewed at his press conference? The guy looked like a kid in a candy store. I thought he would be "the man" for this franchise for the next 5-7 years. What he did was unprecedented for a superstar (i.e. choosing to go somewhere else instead of staying with the Lakers). But I guess the presence of Kobe, D'Antoni's system and the pressure of playing here was too much.
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Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:55 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
Lets Go Lakers wrote:
So you didn't like the Howard and Nash deals when they happened?


No…. and most of the reasons I stated at the time have come been exactly right. 38 year old Nash, who was obviously fading, on a team where we have a very ball dominant wing player was a recipe for disaster. Nash is worthless without the ball and Kobe needs the ball to lead the team. Not enough balls. 3 year deal for Nash was nuts but the only way to get him. Huge panic move and one done without looking at the composition of the team.

….. as for my thoughts on Howard both before and after the deal…. look at my 50+ posts in his dedicated thread. He's a vastly overrated big that has a mentality that is not conducive to being on a winning team. I view this one as a little less of a panic move but we were going to lose Bynum anyway (he was done with the Lakers IMO) so we swung for the fences in hopes that Howard would want to be here and change his ways…… neither was really vetted well obviously. Not figuring that out by the deadline last year and getting at least something for him is the real killer. Gamble that the front of the jersey means more than the back is a losing bet with most of the players these days.


I was a bit hesitant about getting Nash myself as I've been complaining about our lack of athleticism ever since 2010 and bringing Nash didn't help that obviously. But he also brought the ability to make Howard and Gasol thrive and let Kobe play off the ball more and conserve some energy. I still think on paper, given that the team wanted to win right now, it was a good trade when it happened. At least on paper.

As for Howard, I was ecstatic. Did you see how excited he was when he was first interviewed at his press conference? The guy looked like a kid in a candy store. I thought he would be "the man" for this franchise for the next 5-7 years. What he did was unprecedented for a superstar (i.e. choosing to go somewhere else instead of staying with the Lakers). But I guess the presence of Kobe, D'Antoni's system and the pressure of playing here was too much.


That's the problem…. this isn't a video game. You don't take two 17 year veterans that have done something one way with huge success and slam them together and say "play off the ball" to one of them.

As for Nash making Howard better. Not sure how that could happen. You have to be able to pick and pop to play well with Nash. If Stat couldn't have hit the 15 footer there is no reason to step up in that situation. Exactly what happened to Howard here. Pau and Nash, 5 years ago, would have been a great pair in a system like MDA's but when you have Kobe and Howard it's back to the situation where there isn't enough balls to go around and no "role" players.

I've never thought much of Howard so this wasn't much of a surprise to me. He's always been willing to blame anyone else and throw his teammates under busses when he's failed in the past. Kobe don't play that game so he wasn't going to have the focus solely on him in a market as large as LA.
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Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby Vasashi17 on Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:48 pm

My theory on why the Lakers went after Nash and Howard....

Its cause they're "names" in the NBA.

They just signed a major cable deal and how else can you make a splash in its inaugural season? If you have names like Nash, Dwight, Kobe and Pau, the fans will demand to see their Lakers!

Speaking of Time Warner, Charter is looking to buy them for about 40B.
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Re: Lazenby: Chaz - aka Bartender Scout hired by Jim Buss

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:26 pm

Vasashi17 wrote:My theory on why the Lakers went after Nash and Howard....

Its cause they're "names" in the NBA.

They just signed a major cable deal and how else can you make a splash in its inaugural season? If you have names like Nash, Dwight, Kobe and Pau, the fans will demand to see their Lakers!

Speaking of Time Warner, Charter is looking to buy them for about 40B.


I can agree with this but I also think it had a lot to do with the games of Nash and Dwight. If Dwight wasn't such a braindead diva he would of been a beast with Nash on the pick and roll. Unfortunately, he didn't want to work, didn't want to set picks, didnt want to be here and didn't want to stand in the shadows of Laker greats. On paper I think the FO put together a team that could win a championship and bring the fans to the TWC deal.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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