Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby LooN3y on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:35 pm

after the fiasco of getting swept by the 2011 championship mavericks, was it a good choice to move away from the triangle?


every year since we left the triangle we've significantly gotten worse every year.


was it a smart move to change coaching styles and systems?


would we have been in a better place if we had just hired Shaw? or maybe a mixture of corner and triangle with adelman?


was changing a roster that already knew the triangle and built for the triangle a big factor?

i mean we all knew going away from the triangle was all jimmy's business

please leave your suggestions.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby trodgers on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:41 pm

Not with the roster we had and that's even with the acquisitions.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:41 pm

Well, we had to do it sometime. The problem wasn't so much getting away from the triangle but choosing the wrong coach afterwards in Brown who had no idea how to run a sucessful NBA offensive system. If we went with Adelman, we wouldn't be havving this discussion...
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby phoenixrisingla on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:41 pm

Not if we planned on keeping Pau on the floor with another big.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby nameant on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:42 pm

Well no it wasn't a good decision but we can't expect any coach we hire to use the triangle simply because Phil did. We probably should have went with a coach that would fit the system we've had the most success with (the triangle) but we didn't. Kobe is a far better player in the triangle than without it.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby Chillbongo on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:45 pm

We also got bad because of

1. Aging Gasol
2. Aging Metta
3. No athletic wing shot-creators
4. No athletic wing defenders
5. Kobe the only play maker
6. Kobe carrying the offense
7. Trading locker room legends in Fish & Lamar
8. Letting Jim decide our coaches
9. Yes it was Jimmy

Explicitly due to not running the triangle?

No. Only Pau Kobe & Ron would've benefited, everyone else was new. Even under Brown the same problems listed applied.
Last edited by Chillbongo on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby karacha on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:46 pm

I think it's OK to change systems (although triangle was a good one, no question about it) as long as you have the players to do what needs to be done. If you don't have the right players for the system... that's a serious problem.

Was it a good choice? Obviously not, since we're losing games. But even if we get back on track in 2014-2015 with a completely new team -- we're probably not going to run the triangle. There are good offensive and defensive schemes out there. You just need the right players (chemistry!) and a coach who can motivate them. That's all.

But listen... we have to start playing modern basketball. You need mostly young guys with some veterans for their locker room presence. You need to be able to play fast, exciting basketball, with deadly shooters who will either allow your main wing star to facilitate/penetrate or your main PF/C star to play inside-out game. These players need to be fairly fast and athletic, to get back on D when they miss shots and other team starts pushing the ball. Let's look at some of those modern stars: Durant/Westbrook/Bron/Paul/Melo -- even Griffin. Dwight can be one of those featured guys, but he needs proper spacing.

Let's look at quality role-players on the same teams; what do they have in common? They are mostly young, can play defense, can shoot, are fairly athletic. They are perfect role-players. We don't have that, unfortunately. We are too slow to get back on D. Our shooters can't quite stretch the floor for our center. Our shooting guard is still one of the best, but his offense costs him his defensive ability now. Our star starter can't stretch it or block shots like Ibaka, but compensates for it by not playing good defense. Our PG is one of the most creative in the league -- which is neutralized in two ways:

a) you can't hide him on D and
b) he can't use his creativity because no one is quick or smart enough to move without the ball.

We don't play modern basketball, triangle or no triangle.

We don't have guys who can do that. Our shooters are inconsistent, our stars old. And we had too many injuries on top of everything else.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby TIME on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:06 pm

I think I'm going to start posting this in every thread:

The problem is not the offense.
I'm lost in the fog of denial!
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby charvin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:09 pm

The critics reasoned that Nash would turn into Fisher on offense, hence the need to scrap it. At this point, I wouldn't be against Nash just shooting. He really does give you the feeling that every shot he makes will go in due to his quality > quantity shot selection.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby Punk-101 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:30 pm

TIME wrote:I think I'm going to start posting this in every thread:

The problem is not the offense.

Obviously the defense is utter s***, but I think that has at least something to do with the offense. The offense is effective, stat-wise, but it is clearly peeving certain players; namely Gasol and Howard. They're being babies about how they are being used in the offense and it's totally carrying over to the defense. Their attitudes are cancerous and causing the entire team to lack cohesion and chemistry.

I'm not blaming MDA either. I think his system could really benefit Howard and Gasol, but they don't like how the system would use them, so they pout. Howard wants to post up, but he sucks and would be a monster if he embraced MDA's PnRs. Same goes for Gasol. Because of these two weenies, I don't think we're even running MDA's system. He's teaching it, but they don't like it and we get street ball. We have so much talent that even street ball produces efficient offense. If they embraced the system and had good attitudes the offense would be amazing and so would the defense.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby karacha on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:33 pm

Punk-101 wrote: The offense is effective, stat-wise, but it is clearly peeving certain players; namely Gasol and Howard. They're being babies about how they are being used in the offense and it's totally carrying over to the defense. Their attitudes are cancerous and causing the entire team to lack cohesion and chemistry.


I agree with this 100%. We can't develop any chemistry because of this.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby themasterphil on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:34 pm

NO...that offense won 11 nba titles, what are we talking about here....best offense ever PERIOD
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby Weezy on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:35 pm

I would have to see us under the triangle again to say for sure. Our personnel seems to be better suited for that, but it should be good enough on a traditional offense as well, we're averaging 102 ppg right now as a mess.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby 432J on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:14 pm

to keep it short....no

buss should have hired shaw after phil left and stayed within the system that won the lakers 5 rings in the past 15 years. but of course he effed that up
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby SpencerHarrison on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:24 pm

Chillbongo wrote:We also got bad because of

1. Aging Gasol
2. Aging Metta
3. No athletic wing shot-creators
4. No athletic wing defenders
5. Kobe the only play maker
6. Kobe carrying the offense
7. Trading locker room legends in Fish & Lamar
8. Letting Jim decide our coaches
9. Yes it was Jimmy

Explicitly due to not running the triangle?

No. Only Pau Kobe & Ron would've benefited, everyone else was new. Even under Brown the same problems listed applied.


Great concise list. Agreed
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby Chillbongo on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:26 pm

TIME wrote:I think I'm going to start posting this in every thread:

The problem is not the offense.


Did anyone listen to AM 710 Nightside last night? They had Jay from Compton hosting.......dude got on and basically blamed the Laker struggles on Kobe.

On Kobe.

not defense. On Kobe. I was so pissed, I called in to counter him and the phone's guy said he would put me on but disconnected me. It's like they were going for only callers who agreed with him.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby thisbjgz on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:34 pm

No, we shouldve just hired Shaw and kept the triangle post influence offense intact..

btw, Shaw is the assistant coach on the Pacers, who happens to be the leagues best defense, with David West and Hibbert upfront..backing them up? Tyler Hansborough and Ian Mahimi
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby last stand on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:08 pm

TIME wrote:I think I'm going to start posting this in every thread:

The problem is not the offense.


The problem isn't the performance of the offense but the offense itself. Too up tempo for a roster that has no business being such. That hurts defense because guys don't get back
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby MC on Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:08 am

I think the philosophy of openly wanting to play small ball is the mistake more than leaving the triple post offense itself. Our roster only goes to shine a bright light on that flawed moved in philosophy....

I don't think gimmick ball should be the aim if the aim is building a sustainable championship contender. If you want to look pretty and be the regular season champs than by all means go to a small ball philosophy of play. If you actually think relying on being a jump shooting team is the way to go than small ball is for you.

If you want to win more championships and continue to be in the hunt year after year however than you continue to try & grab quality bigs while playing inside out basketball with responsible floor balance and responsibilities. In the end your half court play dictates whether or not you hold a trophy over your head....even for the gimmick ball teams. having a big to run the ball threw is still the best way to build long term and be effective and balanced in the half court. Anyone that thinks otherwise, cough cough MDA, is a mental midget.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby MC on Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:19 am

TIME wrote:I think I'm going to start posting this in every thread:

The problem is not the offense.


Believe it or not your offense CAN affect your defense and make it worse.

So post it in every thread you want...that simple fact will not change no matter how many times you post it.

Turnovers and long rebounds = easy transition hoops

doing it at a faster pace = even more easy hoops

Their half court defense is not good but it is not as bad as it seems either...... when they get back and load up they are respectable enough to be better than they are right now record wise.

When your OFFENSE however compromises your floor balance and relies on jump shots you give up cheap buckets the other way and momentum which is hard to turn. Especially when you are not a good jump shooting team as constructed. If you are just average defensively your team can't make up for this philosophy of play with a flawed roster construction to play it.

An offensive philosophy that drives us towards our weaknesses is a huge problem whether you choose to see that or not.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby nameant on Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:59 am

The offense isn't a problem? Is that why Kobe, at 34, is still having to take bail-out shots and shoot the ball 30 times? Is that why Pau is complaining? Is that why Dwight is complaining? Is that why Nash isn't nearly as effective as he was say, last year? Obviously our defense sucks...but our offense still isn't operating at the level it should be with the talent we have. The Suns from years back had a horrible defense but still dominated the regular season purely on offense. Is it possible to win a title like that...probably not, but they proved you can win by simply playing great offense. If our offense wasn't the problem, we'd still be winning games despite the bad D.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby JGC on Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:37 am

TIME wrote:I think I'm going to start posting this in every thread:

The problem is not the offense.


The offense is relevant though in any discussion about defense with this particular team. For starters, turnovers lead to easy baskets and we turn it over a lot. Add to that, our guys get so gassed on that end, it impacts their ability to defend.

But more importantly, it's about getting guys on the same page. We just aren't on either end of the floor. Are we putting up points, yes, but only because we have talented individual offensive players, not because the points are being produced as a result of efficient team play. We work way too hard for our points given the players we have. So the same issues that prevent this offensive-minded team from playing defense, is why our offense isn't as efficient as it should be. You figure out how to get a bunch of guys who are motivated by playing offense, to get on the same page, and that will translate directly over in to their defensive commitments. We don't have players (or a coaching staff mind you) who identify as defense first so it won't work the other way around.

Can't think of a better analogy at the moment but think of it like a piece of rope. A rope is made up of individual strands. Each strand can only hold so much weight. But if you intertwine the strands together, their collective ability to handle stress goes up exponentially, greater than the sum of what they can do individually even if each piece is fairly adequate on its own.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby JGC on Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:39 am

Oh, and regarding the triangle ... I find it odd, and a little concerning, that Kobe has had almost no success in any system outside of the triangle.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby vmor on Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:13 pm

JGC wrote:Oh, and regarding the triangle ... I find it odd, and a little concerning, that Kobe has had almost no success in any system outside of the triangle.

He didn't play enough in other systems to really know. But back to the starting question: no, it was not a good decision, at least not for the current roster. It's likely to waste Kobe's last 2 good years. Even his legs aren't likely to last throughout playoffs in MDA's system.
Moreover, unless the FO convinces Howard that they'll build a different, quick team around him by 2014, this system will be a total disaster with Kobe and Nash retiring and nobody to rebuilt around as D12 wouldn't likely wait that long, and doesn't seem too happy with MDA now.
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Re: Leaving The Triangle, Was It A Good Decision?

Postby Blahdeh Deebatz on Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:09 pm

The offense doesn't necessarily have to be the triangle, but it should fit the players better. Aside from Nash, the Lakers have 4 good post-up players: Kobe, Artest, Gasol, and Howard. In any given game, one of those 4 should be able to take advantage of a mismatch in the post. But the Lakers went from a triple-post system with a lot of back-to-the-basket play to a system dependent on more guard play and outside shooting. The amount of back-to-the-basket play in the Triangle would fit the Lakers personnel better than the old Phoenix Suns system.

The Lakers are also old and slow at almost every position, but they were trying to speed up the game. Not the right choice. They should be slowing down their offense, giving their players time to rest and allowing them to take advantage of their experience. Any basketball player who has gotten older and slower will know that it's smarter to slow the game down and post up against younger players. Use your muscle and experience to negate their speed and athleticism. The Lakers have slowed the game down the last 2 games (Jazz and OKC), and they've seen good results.

This isn't necessarily an argument for the Triangle. But the Lakers should be running an offense that plays to their strengths. There is a chance that D'Antoni is learning from his mistakes.
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