Longevity Numbers on Kobe -updated.

puffyusaf#2 · by **puffyusaf#2** on Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:23 am

pureuncut100 wrote:Kobes longevity is going to take a hit with his decision making. I have said it before and will say it again, if his decision making doesnt improve (which I doubt it will), when his physical abilities erode enough, he will be looked upon like Allen Iverson was looked upon. At 45%, he is already on the boarder of being a volume shooter. If his FG% ever drops to say 43%, Kobe will be really close to being forced out of the NBA. The fact of the matter is that Kobe is becomming more and more one dimensional and when you are a scorer and cant score effectively or efficiently, then your days are numbered. I am not saying that day is here, but I see it on the horizon.

Look at the game against Golden State for example. IMHO, Phil Jackson kept him out of the game because he was afraid Kobe would shoot the Lakers into a deeper whole. This is the approach a coach takes with a volume shooter.

LMAO... you are persistent.

So now Kobe uses his athleticism to outplay people? Maybe I missed all your post screaming about Kobe not being athlletic anymoere. What is more funny is that Kobe averages 22-27 SPG since basically coming into the league. I think you just hope they get rid of Kobe cause of your hate for the man.

pureuncut100 · by **pureuncut100** on Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:11 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
pureuncut100 wrote:Kobes longevity is going to take a hit with his decision making. I have said it before and will say it again, if his decision making doesnt improve (which I doubt it will), when his physical abilities erode enough, he will be looked upon like Allen Iverson was looked upon. At 45%, he is already on the boarder of being a volume shooter. If his FG% ever drops to say 43%, Kobe will be really close to being forced out of the NBA. The fact of the matter is that Kobe is becomming more and more one dimensional and when you are a scorer and cant score effectively or efficiently, then your days are numbered. I am not saying that day is here, but I see it on the horizon.

Look at the game against Golden State for example. IMHO, Phil Jackson kept him out of the game because he was afraid Kobe would shoot the Lakers into a deeper whole. This is the approach a coach takes with a volume shooter.

LMAO... you are persistent.

So now Kobe uses his athleticism to outplay people? Maybe I missed all your post screaming about Kobe not being athlletic anymoere. What is more funny is that Kobe averages 22-27 SPG since basically coming into the league. I think you just hope they get rid of Kobe cause of your hate for the man.

"all my posts screaming about Kobe not being athletic anymore" ???? What are you talking about?

What I said really isnt that big of a deal except that you obviously love Kobe to the point of not being objective. Look, the guy shoots 45% which isnt bad. If he dips to 43%, especially given his game, people will not want him on their team except to sell tickets. I am simply saying that 43% comes a lot easier when you have poor shot selection as a part of your game.

vtandon · by **vtandon** on Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:48 am

^^ Objective eh... well he isn't one-dimensional if you consider the fact he leads the team in assists, averages about 5 rebounds/game and has above-average steals numbers (in a year that he's supposedly gotten lax on D).

Furthermore, there was a whole thread on what truly defines a bad shot - the consensus of which was, Kobe's contested fade-aways are shots he hits quite consistently... over this year & over his career. Guess what, he actually got picked as the Player of the Month. You venting your rampant hatred for the man during this rough stretch (he did shoot 50% against GS btw) ----Edited----

Do you even realize what this thread is trying to showcase? The fact that KB24, even though his career began post-high school, is an emerging leader in terms of longevity stats (production after the age 30+) :jam2:

No personal attacks please. Attack the post not the poster- Barnstable

trodgers · by **trodgers** on Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:16 am

trodgers wrote:SEASON at age 32
Kobe has 1960 points
7th most at 32 (Hakeem up next).

Kobe has 370 assists
48th best at 32.

Kobe has 398 boards
130th best at 32.

pureuncut100 · by **pureuncut100** on Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:29 am

vtandon wrote:^^ Objective eh... well he isn't one-dimensional if you consider the fact he leads the team in assists, averages about 5 rebounds/game and has above-average steals numbers (in a year that he's supposedly gotten lax on D).

Furthermore, there was a whole thread on what truly defines a bad shot - the consensus of which was, Kobe's contested fade-aways are shots he hits quite consistently... over this year & over his career. Guess what, he actually got picked as the Player of the Month. You venting your rampant hatred for the man during this rough stretch (he did shoot 50% against GS btw) ----Edited----

Do you even realize what this thread is trying to showcase? The fact that KB24, even though his career began post-high school, is an emerging leader in terms of longevity stats (production after the age 30+)

No personal attacks please. Attack the post not the poster- Barnstable

Regardless of your personal attacks, Kobe is shooting 45%. Dont be mad at me for saying the truth. Statistically, you know what I say is the truth. There is not a lot of wiggle room between 45% and 42%. Shaq could play til he is 42 and he wont shoot below 50%. KObe plays a different position and takes a different type of shot. Believe me, KObes longevity is directly related to his field goal percentage strictly because of his game. Jason Kidd could get away with 42% from the field, KObe cant.

trodgers · by **trodgers** on Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:08 am

Pureuncut, I'm not sure that your point in this thread is cogent. If Kobe late in his career is looked at like Iverson late in his career, that's one thing. Kobe's career overall is nothing like AI's. It's much more like Jordan's. So why not think Kobe will be viewed like Jordan was? That's very good despite the age, mind you.

Second, you cannot look at one game and draw sweeping conclusions about one's career. That's sort of the point of this thread. We're building a body of evidence.

Third, Kobe's longevity is not "directly related to his field goal percentage". Unless you mean that there is some sort of vague correlation. He also has athleticism, defense, rebounding, steals, leadership, and scoring ability (even if he becomes a volume shooter; but why think he will?).

As for the suggestion about objectivity, I'm in agreement with vtandon. It's very difficult, psychologically, to take someone seriously who appears only to talk trash about a player. I encourage you to post after every game, to celebrate the good as you denigrate the bad. I think you'll find that Kobe is an absolutely awesome player even at the "old" age of 32.

Doc Brown · by **Doc Brown** on Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:24 am

pureuncut100 wrote:
vtandon wrote:^^ Objective eh... well he isn't one-dimensional if you consider the fact he leads the team in assists, averages about 5 rebounds/game and has above-average steals numbers (in a year that he's supposedly gotten lax on D).

Furthermore, there was a whole thread on what truly defines a bad shot - the consensus of which was, Kobe's contested fade-aways are shots he hits quite consistently... over this year & over his career. Guess what, he actually got picked as the Player of the Month. You venting your rampant hatred for the man during this rough stretch (he did shoot 50% against GS btw) ----Edited----

Do you even realize what this thread is trying to showcase? The fact that KB24, even though his career began post-high school, is an emerging leader in terms of longevity stats (production after the age 30+)

No personal attacks please. Attack the post not the poster- Barnstable

Regardless of your personal attacks, Kobe is shooting 45%. Dont be mad at me for saying the truth. Statistically, you know what I say is the truth. There is not a lot of wiggle room between 45% and 42%. Shaq could play til he is 42 and he wont shoot below 50%. KObe plays a different position and takes a different type of shot. Believe me, KObes longevity is directly related to his field goal percentage strictly because of his game. Jason Kidd could get away with 42% from the field, KObe cant.

Do you know why Shaq would never shoot below 50% because he is a post player that shoots layups and dunks the ball for all of his points. Comparing Shaq and Kobe and field goal percentage is just absurd. Are you still bitter that we kept Kobe instead of Shaq back in the early 00's. Kobe's longevity is not related to his field goal percentage strictly speaking, he's been dominant for so long in his career because he is one of the most fundamently sound players to ever play the game. His work ethic is crazy and he is going to be around for a long time because he's adapted his game by mastering the other parts of the game that the young players in the league haven't.

So what if Kobe shoots 45% or 42%, do you watch the games? Probably not. Do you just look at box scores? Probably. Yes Kobe takes bad shots, who doesnt? Let me ask you, who gets the ball with less than 5 seconds left in the shot clock 95% of the time, when the team has a bad possession? Kobe does. If this happens 6 times a game, your asking him to essentially make half of those shots, which are basically buzzer beaters. Its not going to happen.

Do you know why Jason Kidd can get away with 42%, because he is a poing guard. His main job is to facilitate the ball and set guys up to score. Kobe's game is to be the man, which he is damn good at, which is totally different then being a point guard. Kobe doesnt play point guard so again I dont know why you are comparing him to people that he has no reason to be compared with. Why dont you compare him to Lebron, Dwade, Melo, etc. Guys that are leaned on every game to carry their team and take every big shot because their teammates defer to them. They shoot similar percentages because they are the ones that are forced to take the toughest shots during games.

Its pretty hard to back up your claims, when you only come around when Kobe struggles.

DMK · by **DMK** on Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:55 pm

I clicked page 5 for updated stats, not arguing.

If it matters at all. :man10:

trodgers · by **trodgers** on Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:19 pm

DMK wrote:I clicked page 5 for updated stats, not arguing.

If it matters at all.

trodgers · by **trodgers** on Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:22 pm

Top of the first page for you, DMK :man1:

pureuncut100 · by **pureuncut100** on Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:56 pm

jmoney4123 wrote:Do you know why Shaq would never shoot below 50% because he is a post player that shoots layups and dunks the ball for all of his points. Comparing Shaq and Kobe and field goal percentage is just absurd. Are you still bitter that we kept Kobe instead of Shaq back in the early 00's. Kobe's longevity is not related to his field goal percentage strictly speaking, he's been dominant for so long in his career because he is one of the most fundamently sound players to ever play the game. His work ethic is crazy and he is going to be around for a long time because he's adapted his game by mastering the other parts of the game that the young players in the league haven't.

So what if Kobe shoots 45% or 42%, do you watch the games? Probably not. Do you just look at box scores? Probably. Yes Kobe takes bad shots, who doesnt? Let me ask you, who gets the ball with less than 5 seconds left in the shot clock 95% of the time, when the team has a bad possession? Kobe does. If this happens 6 times a game, your asking him to essentially make half of those shots, which are basically buzzer beaters. Its not going to happen.

Do you know why Jason Kidd can get away with 42%, because he is a poing guard. His main job is to facilitate the ball and set guys up to score. Kobe's game is to be the man, which he is damn good at, which is totally different then being a point guard. Kobe doesnt play point guard so again I dont know why you are comparing him to people that he has no reason to be compared with. Why dont you compare him to Lebron, Dwade, Melo, etc. Guys that are leaned on every game to carry their team and take every big shot because their teammates defer to them. They shoot similar percentages because they are the ones that are forced to take the toughest shots during games.

Its pretty hard to back up your claims, when you only come around when Kobe struggles.

I think you are proving my point and not realizing it. We clearly agree that the nature of KObes position by itself promotes a lower field goal percentage than a Shaq for example. I am also saying that the nature of Kobes position and role on this team promotes him becomming less effective than a Jason Kidd or Chauncey Billups as he gets older, that is unless Kobe could become a more efficient scorer. I simply do not know many 42/43% shooters that were great. To go from 45% to 42% is just a missed shot a game.

Secondly, I dont come around when Kobe is struggling. I frankly do not think he is struggling right now. But you obviously do. INHO, This is the Kobe we have seen for a large portion of the year. It really says something IMO that you think he is struggling. My opinions are talking strictly in relation to the idea of longevity.

trodgers · by **trodgers** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:36 am

^ In his final two seasons, Jordan shot .431. He averaged 21-6-4.

His team was MUCH better with him. They won 48 games in two seasons before he got there and 74 in the two seasons he played in Washington.

pureuncut100 · by **pureuncut100** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:15 pm

trodgers wrote:^ In his final two seasons, Jordan shot .431. He averaged 21-6-4.

His team was MUCH better with him. They won 48 games in two seasons before he got there and 74 in the two seasons he played in Washington.

I dont understand the point you are trying to make. I totally disregard the years Jordan had with Washington, I mean the guy was 40 years old or something. The Wizards took on Jordan because he put butts in seats. As far as basketball stats go, they dont mean much. Although I think it is awesom that he averaged 21/6/4 at 40. Dominique Wilkens put up some great numbers toward the end of his career also, but I think he ultimately became a volume shooter and a journeyman.

mamatheregoesthatman · by **mamatheregoesthatman** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:21 pm

pureuncut100 wrote:
trodgers wrote:^ In his final two seasons, Jordan shot .431. He averaged 21-6-4.

His team was MUCH better with him. They won 48 games in two seasons before he got there and 74 in the two seasons he played in Washington.

I dont understand the point you are trying to make. I totally disregard the years Jordan had with Washington, I mean the guy was 40 years old or something. The Wizards took on Jordan because he put butts in seats. As far as basketball stats go, they dont mean much. Although I think it is awesom that he averaged 21/6/4 at 40. Dominique Wilkens put up some great numbers toward the end of his career also, but I think he ultimately became a volume shooter and a journeyman.

The point trodgers is making is that Jordan continued to produce and put up great numbers (for someone of his age) to help his team win long after his prime.

pureuncut100 · by **pureuncut100** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:32 pm

trodgers wrote:Pureuncut, I'm not sure that your point in this thread is cogent. If Kobe late in his career is looked at like Iverson late in his career, that's one thing. Kobe's career overall is nothing like AI's. It's much more like Jordan's. So why not think Kobe will be viewed like Jordan was? That's very good despite the age, mind you.

Second, you cannot look at one game and draw sweeping conclusions about one's career. That's sort of the point of this thread. We're building a body of evidence.

Third, Kobe's longevity is not "directly related to his field goal percentage". Unless you mean that there is some sort of vague correlation. He also has athleticism, defense, rebounding, steals, leadership, and scoring ability (even if he becomes a volume shooter; but why think he will?).

As for the suggestion about objectivity, I'm in agreement with vtandon. It's very difficult, psychologically, to take someone seriously who appears only to talk trash about a player. I encourage you to post after every game, to celebrate the good as you denigrate the bad. I think you'll find that Kobe is an absolutely awesome player even at the "old" age of 32.

I agree with you, KObes overall career is more like Jordan than Iverson. But that is not the point I am making. I am not talking about Kobes overall career. In terms of longevity, not legacy, Kobe is very capable of falling into Iverson status because he doesnt shoot a particularly high percentage as it is right now. If in a year or two he falls a couple of percentage points, he may very well be considered a volume shooter. Even now, Kobe is having more and more bad shooting nights. Just the facts man.

To your second point, it is not in my nature to look at one game and draw a conclusion. Maybe the title of the thread should be Legacy Numbers on Kobe. Longevity usually refers to the life of something or time in service.

Third point, I am saying that there is a direct correlation between Kobes shooting percentage and his longevity. Kobes athleticism, defense, rebounding and steals are not going to keep him in the league. If Kobe cant score, his days are numbered. As I said before, he is not a Jason Kidd or Billups. Furthermore, if KObe doesnt change his game, he will become a volume shooter and his longevity will be significantly decreased.

As far as objectivity. I feel I am as objective, if not more objective than most people on this board. For this reason, we will agree to disagree. As a matter of fact, I will not post after every game because I am objective and not a knee jerk kind of guy. I see trends and chronic problems. I never fault a player for one game, I fault a player for trends. You tell me, "I think you will see KObe is an awesom player at 32" which is somewhat deceitful because I never said he wasnt an awesome player. As a matter of fact, I have said repeatedly that Kobe is a top 3 player in the league. Funny how no one hears that stuff though, maybe it is because I criticize and praise the good and the bad as opposed to biting my tongue like a lot of people on this board when it is time to properly place blame or criticism. Especially if the blame falls on a player with 24 on his back.

mamatheregoesthatman · by **mamatheregoesthatman** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:34 pm

^Pure, you're one of those members who posts only after we lose. Why can't you just admit that?

pureuncut100 · by **pureuncut100** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:44 pm

mamatheregoesthatman wrote:^Pure, you're one of those members who posts only after we lose. Why can't you just admit that?

We have lost 3 straight. We have lost 4 straigt earlier and 3 straight a few more times.

I post after I notice trends. If we won 82 games in the exact same fashion, I would never post.

If you need me to be, "one of those members", that is fine with me. If what I say is trivialized and the truth is covered because I am "one of those members", so be it.

trodgers · by **trodgers** on Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:53 pm

pureuncut100 wrote:To your second point, it is not in my nature to look at one game and draw a conclusion. Maybe the title of the thread should be Legacy Numbers on Kobe. Longevity usually refers to the life of something or time in service.

I don't know what you mean by claims about your nature, but, as I've said, you show up after losses but not so much after winning streaks. I find that fascinating. It certainly makes one wonder about your objectivity regarding Kobe (in light of what you post). Also, longevity is exactly the correct term here.

Third point, I am saying that there is a direct correlation between Kobes shooting percentage and his longevity. Kobes athleticism, defense, rebounding and steals are not going to keep him in the league. If Kobe cant score, his days are numbered. As I said before, he is not a Jason Kidd or Billups. Furthermore, if KObe doesnt change his game, he will become a volume shooter and his longevity will be significantly decreased.

Michael Jordan says otherwise. You've admitted that his career has been much more like Iverson's. Perhaps the problem is that you're comparing him to Point Guards, who tend to be creators. He's not a PG. Look for the appropriate comparison. I think you'll find it regarding.

As far as objectivity. I feel I am as objective, if not more objective than most people on this board. For this reason, we will agree to disagree.

Of course, many people feel they're objective...and they're not. That's the point of calling someone's objectivity into question and asking them to examine their behavior.

You don't praise Kobe except in a backhanded fashion. It's tiresome. It's possible, of course, that nearly everyone on this board is wrong and you're right. It's just insanely unlikely.

pureuncut100 · by **pureuncut100** on Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:12 am

trodgers,
As far as when I post, listen to what I say. I post after trends. Now when you notice me is another story. When you notice what I say is another story. I cant do anything about that. People want to pigeon hole me as that guy, well go ahead. Still, while you are questioning my motives and timing, the substance conveniently becomes irrelevant. Coincidence, I dont think so.

I never admitted that Kobes career has been much more like Iversons. Again, if you need me to be the guy who said that to help your argument, go for it. Secondly you missed the point in my comparison of KObe to PGs. A shooting guard who shoots 20 times a game at 43% doesnt last long. You have to have more to offer than that.

I dont praise Kobe. You know what, I dont praise Odom, Gasol, Bynum, Artest, either. But you seem to only notice that I dont praise Kobe. Now, maybe I am actually objective and you arent. If you got in my case for not praising Kobe and some other Laker, you might have a point. Would someone please slam me for not praising any Laker? Of course not because Kobe is King.

trodgers · by **trodgers** on Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:11 am

First post updated again. Kobe has a shot at the 5th most points during the season in which the player turns 32. Not bad.

trodgers · by **trodgers** on Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:13 pm

FWIW, I updated the first post. Meh. Played an awesome game until the last 2 minutes.

trodgers · by **trodgers** on Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:47 am

Barring a 60 point explosion, Kobe is going to finish with the 5th most points during the season in which a player turns 32.

trodgers · by **trodgers** on Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:50 am

Okay, the year is over. Kobe finished up pretty well. 5th best in points, 43rd in assists, and 120th in boards.

trodgers · by **trodgers** on Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:47 pm

Updates for this season:

Record for points scored by 33 year old: 2431 by Michael Jordan.
Kobe currently 396th with 128 points.

Record for assists by 33 year old: 916 by John Stockton.
Kobe currently 386th with 32 assists.

Record for rebounds by 33 year old: 1451 by Bill Russell (that's ridiculous).
Kobe currently 427th with 34.

In a strike shortened season, Kobe won't go near the top of any of those lists, but let's see what he can do. And he can continue to add to his standing here...

CAREER AFTER 30
Most points: Malone 19941
Crack top 10: 12111
55 players have scored at least 7000 points after turning 30.
Kobe has 6378, is currently 75th.

Most assists: Stockton 8441
Crack top 10: 3486
80 players have had at least 1500 assists after turning 30.
Kobe has 1184, is currently 121st.

Most rebounds: Wilt 10433
Crack top 10: 6466
203 players have had at least 1500 boards after turning 30.
Kobe has 1273, is currently 242nd.

5k-1k-1k
87 players have scored at least 5000, handed out 1000 assists, and grabbed 1000 boards after turning 30. Kobe and Fisher are two of those players.

6k-1.1k-1.1k
61 players have scored at least 6000 points, handed out 1100 assists, and grabbed 1100 boards after turning 30. Kobe, Pierce, Duncan, Carter, Billups, Allen, Nash, Kidd are the active players to have done it.

KJ MonK · by **KJ MonK** on Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:14 pm

30K-6K-6K watch... Kobe will be the first ever to achieve that.

Longevity Numbers on Kobe -updated.

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