LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby trodgers on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:05 am

When asked where he wants the ball, Dwight Howard replied, "On the block."
The report tried to probe a bit, asking "Pick and roll? Dive?"
Howard was adamant. "On the block."

When asked to diagnose the problem with the offense, D'Antoni said, "Not enough pick and roll."
He has repeatedly said things along the lines of "straight post up plays are the least efficient plays in basketball."

So, in order for this team to be successful, who's right?
Should we be getting the ball to Dwight on the block or should we be working more PnR?
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby LooN3y on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:14 am

trodgers wrote:When asked where he wants the ball, Dwight Howard replied, "On the block."
The report tried to probe a bit, asking "Pick and roll? Dive?"
Howard was adamant. "On the block."

When asked to diagnose the problem with the offense, D'Antoni said, "Not enough pick and roll."
He has repeatedly said things along the lines of "straight post up plays are the least efficient plays in basketball."

So, in order for this team to be successful, who's right?
Should we be getting the ball to Dwight on the block or should we be working more PnR?




lol on the block? as in him dribbling twice in the post and getting stripped trying to do his one post move? and if theres tight defense on him, him missing the jump hook and not even hitting the rim?


ridiculous, of course he much better in the pick and roll, he just wants to be come a more respectable offensive player at the expensive of the team and team chemistry, and i dont care if kobes "pushing him" to be more talented and polished in the post. its not his game, and it never was. he is horrible in the post, all he needs to do is get those baby assists and get the easy dunk/layup and run the pick and roll and/or have him run and find him on the fast break.

if we seriously go to him in the post as our 1st or 2nd option, we have problems. our first option in the post should be gasol, i dont care how much u guys say "he'll get pushed around" gasol is just a much better, smarter, and polished player in the post.

i mean oh my god, how hard is it for dwight to pump or fake on his post moves? he constantly just posts and spin. the same damn post move he did in orlando. my god if i was MDA, and he didnt runt he pick and roll id take him out of the game. i dont care if hes a superstar, if he truly is one he should know his strenghts and weaknesses.

this guy is never going to be great in the post. its just not him and with all the years in the league already, he should've been better already.
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:21 am

They are both right.

Howard needs plays where he can bang down low. Right now he is still getting stripped (a lot less lately) but still he should be getting post plays. On the other side he should be involved in pick and rolls all day long. Coach D has been right with the idea that if the ball moves (properly) then the shots will come. If Dwight set the picks and the ball moved the way it was supposed to Dwight would get a lot more easy shots. That would open the post for him to go one on one more.

However, in the fairness of the question I think Dwight is more right. Mike D has (so far) been to stringent about his offense. He needs to tweek it a bit to be more effective for this team.
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby LooN3y on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:24 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:They are both right.

Howard needs plays where he can bang down low. Right now he is still getting stripped (a lot less lately) but still he should be getting post plays. On the other side he should be involved in pick and rolls all day long. Coach D has been right with the idea that if the ball moves (properly) then the shots will come. If Dwight set the picks and the ball moved the way it was supposed to Dwight would get a lot more easy shots. That would open the post for him to go one on one more.

However, in the fairness of the question I think Dwight is more right. Mike D has (so far) been to stringent about his offense. He needs to tweek it a bit to be more effective for this team.



post when he gets more confident and conditioned to 100%, but god picking dwight posting up as a better option that an dwight and whoever pick and roll play is beyond me
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby khmrP on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:28 am

how bout PnR into a post? I know if he gets the ball straight into the post, there isn't much ball movt and teams can double. If he is catching the ball on the move into the paint I think defenders will have harder time of doubling him and or crowding him to cause those stripes/TO's.
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby LooN3y on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:31 am

khmrP wrote:how bout PnR into a post? I know if he gets the ball straight into the post, there isn't much ball movt and teams can double. If he is catching the ball on the move into the paint I think defenders will have harder time of doubling him and or crowding him to cause those stripes/TO's.




this, we should pick and roll as the start for any dwight offense. pick and roll and do and whatever next is what fits the situation at hand.



giving dwight in the post and making him work is a goddamn big face palm for me.
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby Doc Brown on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:42 am

If you want the ball on the block in a straight up post move, you need to quit getting stripped and have more than one post move.
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby therealdeal on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:43 am

Both of them. I'm sick of seeing Kobe-ball at this point because it's not doing enough to win and the it's tiring Kobe out. He's not a PG, he's a SG, and as long as we're going to endure the absence of Nash, we're going to have a tough time placating Howard.

Howard for his part has done a good job of getting post position. I think that's not the problem. Howard on the block creates foul opportunities and creates good things because he's a decent passer out of the post.

For now, that's the direction to go in. When Nash gets back, then it's time for Howard to see more pick and rolls. But seeing as how we have no effective pick and roll distributor, let's see more Howard on the block.
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby John3:16 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:48 am

Howard might prefer the block, and he should get it there. But the defense is at more of a disadvantage in the pick and roll and Howard excels at it. As others have said, both.
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby Center Court on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:48 am

MDA is the wrong coach. point blank.

Phil was the right choice. But Dr.Buss wanted to stick it to PJ before he dies.

Phil would have this team in positions to succeed. Dwight and Pau on the blocks.

Even with MDA, right now we''re either letting Kobe force a shot or we're dumping the ball to Dwight. Is that D Anphony's offense? Or is he just saying, fck it, I'll wait til nash comes back before we do thing I want...? hat's the sign of a horrible coach.

And when is this "offensive genius" figure out how to use this group of players... this is ridiculous. He's got no idea of D. His game plan ws to just switch everything. And at least his strong suit, O, is horrible. Kobe is playing amazing. Metta is playing well. Dwight is being misused.
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby abeer3 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:49 am

good points by rd. in theory, this is one thing that i agree with dantoni on: pick and rolls create better opportunities for bigs than straight post ups. especially when said big is not super skilled in the post. bynum was better at dump downs, but couldn't play pick and roll on offense or defense. the value in howard is that he can do both in league where it's become vital. the lakers' problem is that none of their current players can run that play effectively as the ballhandler. kobe's the closest thing, but if he's on the ball, then the lakers have no shooters to keep teams from just swarming dwight and kobe while they're in the same area.

this is why lots of folks think that nash's return will basically fix the offense. it will take a while, but i believe that to be true. when kobe's the the guy the opposition has to leave to help defend that play, things get trickier for the defense. if they ever get pau moving on the weakside off that play, that could be deadly, too.

for the time being, the lakers basically have to go to the kobe/dwight iso tradeoff offense because...they're down two allstars and one of their more reliable catch and shoot guys.
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby John3:16 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:52 am

Center Court wrote:MDA is the wrong coach. point blank.


I'm not a D'Antoni fan by any means, but I don't think he's the wrong coach, necessarily. His system is wrong for our team. He's gotta change it. he can do it. Others have. And he's got a wealth of experience on the bench next to him (assistants and players).
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby khmrP on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:54 am

John3:16 wrote:
Center Court wrote:MDA is the wrong coach. point blank.


I'm not a D'Antoni fan by any means, but I don't think he's the wrong coach, necessarily. His system is wrong for our team. He's gotta change it. he can do it. Others have. And he's got a wealth of experience on the bench next to him (assistants and players).


its hard to think he would change it but I do know that Pop change his O to more uptempo and PnR heavy and its worked for them but not defensively. Its weird now Antoni will have to do the opposite and slow it down a bit :man10:
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby therealdeal on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:55 am

abeer3 wrote:for the time being, the lakers basically have to go to the kobe/dwight iso tradeoff offense because...they're down two allstars and one of their more reliable catch and shoot guys.

This.

The defenses know that we're either going to Kobe or we're going to Dwight on the block. We have NO other options to create for our team. Duhon can play an effective PG off the bench or in a limited role, but he's been buried on the bench in Orlando for a reason: he's not a starting caliber PG.

Nash coming back puts people in their more natural positions (outside of Gasol obviously) and forces defense to play honestly. They can try to pack the paint on a Dwight/Nash pick and roll, but if they do then they're going to have to leave Gasol and Bryant. Tall order.

As for Howard's post game, it's good, but teams are just doing what they did to Bynum and daring the rest of our team to shoot. The ball moves outside very nicely, but when those shots don't fall then we're not getting anywhere. I think we're not quite posting properly by trying to make Ebanks a shooter. I'd rather he slash. It forces teams to collapse and frees Jamison/Meeks/Duhon outside.
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby therealdeal on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:58 am

khmrP wrote:
John3:16 wrote:
Center Court wrote:MDA is the wrong coach. point blank.


I'm not a D'Antoni fan by any means, but I don't think he's the wrong coach, necessarily. His system is wrong for our team. He's gotta change it. he can do it. Others have. And he's got a wealth of experience on the bench next to him (assistants and players).


its hard to think he would change it but I do know that Pop change his O to more uptempo and PnR heavy and its worked for them but not defensively. Its weird now Antoni will have to do the opposite and slow it down a bit :man10:

Yeah, I mean it's not like he has to play Mike Brown's style of snail-ball. He just can't play his style of Phoenix-ball.

It'll look a lot better when Nash returns and the offense moves more smoothly. We just don't have a single guy that LOOKS for his teammates and is CAPABLE and CONSISTENT too. Duhon looks, but can't always do it. Kobe is capable but not as much as true point and he's certainly not consistent. After that I don't think we have anyone who's even capable of running point in the NBA.

When Nash comes back, the half court sets will see better movement which will make the offense look faster, but in reality we won't be fast breaking much.
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby wcsoldier81 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:08 am

One recurrent play in Orlando was Nelson/D12 PNR , D12 was getting deep position and receiving the ball from the wing player ...

Nowhere to be found here...

Antoni can't win games without Nash ... I think it proves the kind of coach he is ....
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby therealdeal on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:10 am

^ Actually I've seen them run that play a few times over the last few games, but it's really rare. I think that play last night happened once and he tried to dunk the ball and missed the dunk.

But definitely I'd like to see that play more. Dwight is good at sealing his mind behind him. He's so good in fact that the other team just jumps over his back now and whacks at the ball to get it out of there, which I'm pretty sure is a foul :man10:
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby Center Court on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:31 am

John3:16 wrote:
Center Court wrote:MDA is the wrong coach. point blank.


I'm not a D'Antoni fan by any means, but I don't think he's the wrong coach, necessarily. His system is wrong for our team. He's gotta change it. he can do it. Others have. And he's got a wealth of experience on the bench next to him (assistants and players).


But what if he is unwilling to change? What if Pau is a stretch 4 and that's it? What if MWP is just a corner 3 point shooter? Then is he the wrong coach?

Right now, it's hard to say because 1/3 of the time we're running "loose" p'n'r that usually results in nothing but a scramble to get a shot up. 1/3 it just gets dumped to Dwight. 1/3 of the time it's Kobe only looking to score. So maybe MDA has just said F it, let them do what they want until Steve comes back. Maybe this team just isn't getting it. Maybe nobody is really comfortable in their roles and Steve will alleviate all of our woes, but I keep getting the feeling that Dwight just isn't being put to good use. With Nash he'll excel in the p'n'r. In the triangle he'd excel on the block, but to this point neither are working.

My whole thing with him is that he's going to have to really adjust to his roster. Not necessarily in terms of speed, because that's a given. But in the sense of putting guys in their comfort zones as much as possible.
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Re: LQOTD: Howard or D'Antoni?

Postby Rooscooter on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:39 am

Howard needs the ball in broken floor situations more than on the block IMHO.... Going to the hoop either with the ball or for the oop he is far more likely to make the shot and less likely to get fouled before he can make the hoop. He is, and has been deadly in these situations in the past.

The dump it in and watch stuff didn't work last year and with his proclivity to get fouled and miss the free throws and/or get stripped I'd hate to say it but I'd side with MDA on this one...... at least on which he should get more of the two choices....
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