LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:55 am

JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
JGC wrote:Martin is having a good year with them, but he's shooting uncharacteristically well specifically from deep. Could be evidence of Durant making his teammates better perhaps. In either case, I'm not sure you're suggesting OKC is better off with Kevin Martin over James Harden, are you?


Martin is providing the scoring that Harden did.... he's opening the middle much more than Harden did as well. He isn't the initiator or finisher Harden is but the idea that he's significantly inferior is not true IMO.

That team has a leadership problem.... always has.


Ok, I'm not sure why but you didn't answer the questions.

Are you saying OKC is better off with Kevin Martin over James Harden? My earlier point was that KD was putting up these gaudy numbers despite losing the 6th man of the year. Kevin Martin is a nice consolation prize, but in my opinion, OKC is a better team with James Harden than Kevin Martin. Do you agree?

Also, you keep using the nebulous term leadership but I had asked what you specifically mean by that. What has Kobe done, this season for example, that Durant hasn't in terms of providing leadership to the team? (For example, making ones teammates better might be an example, and I think KD has done that, and Kobe hasn't yet this year).


OKC is both better and worse off without Harden. There was tension on that team with him on the bench. Martin opens the middle like very few in the league.... See Ibaka's numbers for that potential effect. Harden was a ball dominant bench player that could be dominant at times and take games over. Martin isn't that kind of player but he isn't a "consolation prize" either. Martin's game helps open the floor for Westbrook and Durant more than Harden did. That's a different value brought by Martin. He's an all star talent if he can stay healthy. That's been the big if with him in the past.... not ability.

As for comparing the leadership of Kobe and Durant.... When you play with Kobe you are expected to match his intensity and desire every night. While it is sometimes vocal leadership it is implied all of the time. He expects everyone to be there for the same reasons he's still there. Durant has almost none of that gravitas or presence on the floor. He's a gifted scorer and one of the very few I would call a "Superstar" but he's not the guy to kick a teammates butt either in the locker room or in the media to get them back on the reservation. He's not a demonstrative leader on the floor either.

I dont' see the "Durant makes his teammates better" line being any more relevant than what Kobe does for his team. That is one of the oldest knocks on Kobe out there and I just don't think it's true. If Kobe were more passive this year we'd be 6 games under .500.... he's carried some of his teammates this season in ways Durant hasn't (or hasn't had to) in OKC. Leadership ends in success..... Kobe's had the ultimate success 5 times.... Durant none so far.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby LTLakerFan on Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:13 am

Rooscooter wrote:
JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
JGC wrote:Martin is having a good year with them, but he's shooting uncharacteristically well specifically from deep. Could be evidence of Durant making his teammates better perhaps. In either case, I'm not sure you're suggesting OKC is better off with Kevin Martin over James Harden, are you?


Martin is providing the scoring that Harden did.... he's opening the middle much more than Harden did as well. He isn't the initiator or finisher Harden is but the idea that he's significantly inferior is not true IMO.

That team has a leadership problem.... always has.


Ok, I'm not sure why but you didn't answer the questions.

Are you saying OKC is better off with Kevin Martin over James Harden? My earlier point was that KD was putting up these gaudy numbers despite losing the 6th man of the year. Kevin Martin is a nice consolation prize, but in my opinion, OKC is a better team with James Harden than Kevin Martin. Do you agree?

Also, you keep using the nebulous term leadership but I had asked what you specifically mean by that. What has Kobe done, this season for example, that Durant hasn't in terms of providing leadership to the team? (For example, making ones teammates better might be an example, and I think KD has done that, and Kobe hasn't yet this year).


OKC is both better and worse off without Harden. There was tension on that team with him on the bench. Martin opens the middle like very few in the league.... See Ibaka's numbers for that potential effect. Harden was a ball dominant bench player that could be dominant at times and take games over. Martin isn't that kind of player but he isn't a "consolation prize" either. Martin's game helps open the floor for Westbrook and Durant more than Harden did. That's a different value brought by Martin. He's an all star talent if he can stay healthy. That's been the big if with him in the past.... not ability.

As for comparing the leadership of Kobe and Durant.... When you play with Kobe you are expected to match his intensity and desire every night. While it is sometimes vocal leadership it is implied all of the time. He expects everyone to be there for the same reasons he's still there. Durant has almost none of that gravitas or presence on the floor. He's a gifted scorer and one of the very few I would call a "Superstar" but he's not the guy to kick a teammates butt either in the locker room or in the media to get them back on the reservation. He's not a demonstrative leader on the floor either.

I dont' see the "Durant makes his teammates better" line being any more relevant than what Kobe does for his team. That is one of the oldest knocks on Kobe out there and I just don't think it's true. If Kobe were more passive this year we'd be 6 games under .500.... he's carried some of his teammates this season in ways Durant hasn't (or hasn't had to) in OKC. Leadership ends in success..... Kobe's had the ultimate success 5 times.... Durant none so far.


Roos.....sorry.....but odom1year says that's ridiculous.....stop being a Kobe fan and be a Lakers fan. Kobe shoots too much. Durant's the guy leading his team to a title. I've seen the light...... :man1:
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:27 am

What is remarkable is- If the Lakers were winning the justification for Kobe not being the MVP is because he has Howard, Nash, Pau and a revamped MWP. Now, its "best player on best team". Where were all those folks for Tony Parker last year? Oh yea, it wasn't best player on best team but Lebron from the beginning. Bias is evident by anyone who dismisses Kobe as being an MVP candidate. Does he deserve to win it if it was given right now? In my opinion no. I think Carmelo is the front runner even thought NYK has fallen off a bit. Should Kobe be considered? Of course, the guy is doing things at his age never been done before. He is also putting up numbers equal to those young guns Melo, Durant, and Lebron. It's not homer to say he is a candidate.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:33 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:What is remarkable is- If the Lakers were winning the justification for Kobe not being the MVP is because he has Howard, Nash, Pau and a revamped MWP. Now, its "best player on best team". Where were all those folks for Tony Parker last year? Oh yea, it wasn't best player on best team but Lebron from the beginning. Bias is evident by anyone who dismisses Kobe as being an MVP candidate. Does he deserve to win it if it was given right now? In my opinion no. I think Carmelo is the front runner even thought NYK has fallen off a bit. Should Kobe be considered? Of course, the guy is doing things at his age never been done before. He is also putting up numbers equal to those young guns Melo, Durant, and Lebron. It's not homer to say he is a candidate.


You had me until you got to Melo..... :man10: He may be in the running but that's not because of his contributions it's because he plays in NY and they are winning.... Lebron is the best overall player in the game IMO... right now Kobe is playing at that level as well. If Kobe keeps it up and the Lakers get a top 4 seed he should be in the running IMO but that isn't what will happen will it?

This award has little meaning compared to when I started watching the game so for me I really couldn't care less about it or any of the other "post season" awards. They are marketing tools for the league and leverage for agents.... not really reflective of what they are supposedly given for any longer.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:49 am

Rooscooter wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:What is remarkable is- If the Lakers were winning the justification for Kobe not being the MVP is because he has Howard, Nash, Pau and a revamped MWP. Now, its "best player on best team". Where were all those folks for Tony Parker last year? Oh yea, it wasn't best player on best team but Lebron from the beginning. Bias is evident by anyone who dismisses Kobe as being an MVP candidate. Does he deserve to win it if it was given right now? In my opinion no. I think Carmelo is the front runner even thought NYK has fallen off a bit. Should Kobe be considered? Of course, the guy is doing things at his age never been done before. He is also putting up numbers equal to those young guns Melo, Durant, and Lebron. It's not homer to say he is a candidate.


You had me until you got to Melo..... :man10: He may be in the running but that's not because of his contributions it's because he plays in NY and they are winning.... Lebron is the best overall player in the game IMO... right now Kobe is playing at that level as well. If Kobe keeps it up and the Lakers get a top 4 seed he should be in the running IMO but that isn't what will happen will it?

This award has little meaning compared to when I started watching the game so for me I really couldn't care less about it or any of the other "post season" awards. They are marketing tools for the league and leverage for agents.... not really reflective of what they are supposedly given for any longer.


I agree with Melo. I mean I have always been one of his biggest supporters,however, I use him because of the "best player on best team" thought process. As for best overall player in the game KD, Lebron and Kobe are all there. If the Lakers rebound and wind up top 4 in the west he still wouldn't get the credit of being an MVP the rules would change again. The award is Lebrons (maybe KD finally) from the tip of the season.

I agree at the deminished meaning of all these awards. Someone mentioned it should be GM's and players who vote for the MVP award and I agree. The media has agendas and usually they are East Coast or Big Market slanted. Such a damn shame really.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby wcsoldier81 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:01 am

Medias are changing criterias every season and using team success to justificate their MVP choice ... the later isn't always mainly due to the improvment of the "MVP" from one season to the other

They're telling us Melo is a different player this season.. sorry but no ... he's playing the exact same way he has been for his whole career ... he just has better players and teammates around him this season .

I think the Knicks early success has at least as much to do with depth AND the presence of veterans like Kidd , Thomas both on and off the floor as Melo so called transformation .
Keep in mind the only season he had a good postseason run ... Billups was on his team ...



Same can be said for Kobe in 08 ... it wasn't a better or more mature Kobe than in 2006 as some medias said ... he just had a way better team .

Imo , Kobe deserved even more to win the award in 2006 than in 2008
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JGC on Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:13 am

Rooscooter wrote:
JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
JGC wrote:Martin is having a good year with them, but he's shooting uncharacteristically well specifically from deep. Could be evidence of Durant making his teammates better perhaps. In either case, I'm not sure you're suggesting OKC is better off with Kevin Martin over James Harden, are you?


Martin is providing the scoring that Harden did.... he's opening the middle much more than Harden did as well. He isn't the initiator or finisher Harden is but the idea that he's significantly inferior is not true IMO.

That team has a leadership problem.... always has.


Ok, I'm not sure why but you didn't answer the questions.

Are you saying OKC is better off with Kevin Martin over James Harden? My earlier point was that KD was putting up these gaudy numbers despite losing the 6th man of the year. Kevin Martin is a nice consolation prize, but in my opinion, OKC is a better team with James Harden than Kevin Martin. Do you agree?

Also, you keep using the nebulous term leadership but I had asked what you specifically mean by that. What has Kobe done, this season for example, that Durant hasn't in terms of providing leadership to the team? (For example, making ones teammates better might be an example, and I think KD has done that, and Kobe hasn't yet this year).


OKC is both better and worse off without Harden. There was tension on that team with him on the bench. Martin opens the middle like very few in the league.... See Ibaka's numbers for that potential effect. Harden was a ball dominant bench player that could be dominant at times and take games over. Martin isn't that kind of player but he isn't a "consolation prize" either. Martin's game helps open the floor for Westbrook and Durant more than Harden did. That's a different value brought by Martin. He's an all star talent if he can stay healthy. That's been the big if with him in the past.... not ability.

As for comparing the leadership of Kobe and Durant.... When you play with Kobe you are expected to match his intensity and desire every night. While it is sometimes vocal leadership it is implied all of the time. He expects everyone to be there for the same reasons he's still there. Durant has almost none of that gravitas or presence on the floor. He's a gifted scorer and one of the very few I would call a "Superstar" but he's not the guy to kick a teammates butt either in the locker room or in the media to get them back on the reservation. He's not a demonstrative leader on the floor either.

I dont' see the "Durant makes his teammates better" line being any more relevant than what Kobe does for his team. That is one of the oldest knocks on Kobe out there and I just don't think it's true. If Kobe were more passive this year we'd be 6 games under .500.... he's carried some of his teammates this season in ways Durant hasn't (or hasn't had to) in OKC. Leadership ends in success..... Kobe's had the ultimate success 5 times.... Durant none so far.


Well, I don't want to turn a Kobe MVP Material thread in to a Harden/Martin debate. I personally think Harden makes OKC better than Kevin Martin does in the long run and I'm sure most people would agree, but it's really moot at this point anyway. My original point was that they didn't make the trade to get better and we can both agree they didn't get better overall and so it's not like Durant's numbers are being elevated by improvements made to the team.

I agree about Durant not kicking his teammates butt either but exactly how is that a sign of good leadership? Are all players who kick their teammates butts showing a form of good leadership? I'm not just not so sure I buy that one. The demonstrative thing, sure, I get that, but I think leading by example would be a much more effective strategy.

As far as Kobe making his teammates better. He USED to do that. It was a knock on him that was untrue. But it seems like it might be the case now. For instance, in the past, whenever a free agent or traded player came here and played with Kobe (in the post Shaq era) they almost always became a more efficient offensive player. Mihm, Butler, Odom, Kwame, all these guys shot career highs in FG% as Lakers. I think Atkins shot his second best career FG% for a season. Smush Parker had this best years as a Laker. In all of Derek's 17 NBA seasons, want to know which one he shot the best in? His first year back as a Laker along Kobe.

It's been different the past few years. I haven't seen anyone come in and play BETTER or even more efficiently than they have before. You're confusing "making teammates better" with "carrying teammates". Ironically, sometimes I think Kobe has the same confusions. Making your teammates better doesn't mean being more passive or carrying your teammates by taking on the offensive scoring load (because he certainly hasn't carried his teammates on the defensive end lately). It means making them better players. In the last few years, I don't feel like Kobe has really been doing that as well as he used to. I mean, who has come to join the Lakers and had a better season than their previous one? I think literally every single new Laker in the past couple of years, young or old, has been closer to the career lows side of things than the career highs side of things. That wasn't the case before.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:17 pm

JGC wrote:Well, I don't want to turn a Kobe MVP Material thread in to a Harden/Martin debate. I personally think Harden makes OKC better than Kevin Martin does in the long run and I'm sure most people would agree, but it's really moot at this point anyway. My original point was that they didn't make the trade to get better and we can both agree they didn't get better overall and so it's not like Durant's numbers are being elevated by improvements made to the team.


I didn't say they were "improved".... I just don't agree with the assessment that it was a huge downgrade. Martin does a lot of things Harden doesn't and vice versa. The gap on offense isn't as big as many think.... and the issues surrounding Harden and being on the bench were coming to a head.... that's addition by subtraction because the situation that existed in the past wasn't going to exist in the future. OKC had to make a choice and they did. They kept Westbrook..... Getting Martin has changed the team but the jury is out if it was a negative or lateral move. We'll see.

JGC wrote:I agree about Durant not kicking his teammates butt either but exactly how is that a sign of good leadership? Are all players who kick their teammates butts showing a form of good leadership? I'm not just not so sure I buy that one. The demonstrative thing, sure, I get that, but I think leading by example would be a much more effective strategy.


Kobe leads in the same manner as Larry Bird IMO.... Durant is a more like Dr. J.... who didn't really get a team anywhere until Moses came along while being an All Time Great. I believe it's a great sign of leadership.... actually the best kind... do as I do stuff. Kobe does it and expects it from the others on the team.

JGC wrote:As far as Kobe making his teammates better. He USED to do that. It was a knock on him that was untrue. But it seems like it might be the case now. For instance, in the past, whenever a free agent or traded player came here and played with Kobe (in the post Shaq era) they almost always became a more efficient offensive player. Mihm, Butler, Odom, Kwame, all these guys shot career highs in FG% as Lakers. I think Atkins shot his second best career FG% for a season. Smush Parker had this best years as a Laker. In all of Derek's 17 NBA seasons, want to know which one he shot the best in? His first year back as a Laker along Kobe.


Well.... you've got a rep here for this line of thought. I for one don't agree with it. Playing on the floor with Kobe makes you better for a number of reasons. Let's look at an "older" example..... Kareem. He didn't pass a lot... it wasn't his job.... most of the "Showtime" years he walked up the court and that was only if the fast break was thwarted.... yet when he was in the post guys like Worthy got to be one of the 50 greatest when he was barely one of the 150 greatest.... Magic had wide open lanes to drive while being 6'-9" tall and 230 lbs... Scott got wide open shots because everyone was focused on Kareem. Kobe does the same things for his teammates. He's the focus of the defense at all times because he's the best overall player on our team.... period.

Your comment about "recent years" is puzzling.... outside of Barnes who have we signed that has been worth a damn to make better?

If you are talking about Howard I'm not sure what are getting at either. The ones who thought Howard was going to come in here and get 15 shots a game and be the focus of our offense are the ones not seeing things clearly IMO.

Bynum got about 13 shots a game with 5.6 FTA's a game. In our previous scheme I expected about the same number of attempts or less because of the fact we have so many other options on this team. He is at about 11 shots and 10 FTA a game or roughly the same total number of touches.... The new scheme isn't nearly as post up dependent so it would seem that his touches in the post will be fewer.... and they are. Kobe is getting more touches...... and most of them is much better scoring areas.... thus his efficiency is higher this year.

As long as Kobe is on the team he will demand to be the primary scorer until HE doesn't want that anymore.... judging from his comments last year about "eating first" that isn't going to be anytime soon. The only player that isn't able to take advantage of the better looks his presence creates this year is Pau.... MWP is better, Howard is about the same while recovering from injury and 90% of that is without Nash who should help even more.

As for the "carrying" comment.... Kobe has been forced into that role this year... that's my take... it seems that you feel like he's doing that for his own edification.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby solenstyle on Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:50 am

LeBron is having the better year. LeBron's team has a better record. LeBron has better statistics than Kobe. LeBron is playing much much better defense than Kobe. There is no argument for Kobe over LeBron. If there was no LeBron and if the Lakers record was a lot better, Kobe would have a good chance, but that isn't reality right now.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby MassDaIllest on Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:19 am

Its January. If the playoffs started today, the Lakers would not make the playoffs.... Sure, Kobe is in the MVP discussion.

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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JGC on Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:21 am

Rooscooter wrote:
JGC wrote:Well, I don't want to turn a Kobe MVP Material thread in to a Harden/Martin debate. I personally think Harden makes OKC better than Kevin Martin does in the long run and I'm sure most people would agree, but it's really moot at this point anyway. My original point was that they didn't make the trade to get better and we can both agree they didn't get better overall and so it's not like Durant's numbers are being elevated by improvements made to the team.


I didn't say they were "improved".... I just don't agree with the assessment that it was a huge downgrade. Martin does a lot of things Harden doesn't and vice versa. The gap on offense isn't as big as many think.... and the issues surrounding Harden and being on the bench were coming to a head.... that's addition by subtraction because the situation that existed in the past wasn't going to exist in the future. OKC had to make a choice and they did. They kept Westbrook..... Getting Martin has changed the team but the jury is out if it was a negative or lateral move. We'll see.


To be fair, I didn't really say Martin was a huge downgrade for OKC. But I do think he is a downgrade for them. I just don't think they make him better in the long run. Now you're right that things weren't working out for Harden over there and things were coming to a head and you're right that things that existed in the past weren't going to exist in the future. You're also right that they had to make a choice. The Lakers were in the same situation in a way with Shaq. My only point was that the trade wasn't made, to make OKC better it was made out of necessity and so far it seems to be working out for them and I'm sure Martin's numbers have a lot to do with playing with a guy like Durant.

Rooscooter wrote:
JGC wrote:I agree about Durant not kicking his teammates butt either but exactly how is that a sign of good leadership? Are all players who kick their teammates butts showing a form of good leadership? I'm not just not so sure I buy that one. The demonstrative thing, sure, I get that, but I think leading by example would be a much more effective strategy.


Kobe leads in the same manner as Larry Bird IMO.... Durant is a more like Dr. J.... who didn't really get a team anywhere until Moses came along while being an All Time Great. I believe it's a great sign of leadership.... actually the best kind... do as I do stuff. Kobe does it and expects it from the others on the team.


Yeah, well, we're not going to agree that the way Kobe leads is the best kind of leadership. I think that style can however, be effective with the right personnel. I'm not sure if its universal application makes sense for everyone though. I'd think a more adaptive form of leadership makes the most sense but that is neither here nor there. I actually think Kobe leads a lot like Michael Jordan as well. Some people would say MJ was a great leader, and others would beg to differ I guess.

Rooscooter wrote:
JGC wrote:As far as Kobe making his teammates better. He USED to do that. It was a knock on him that was untrue. But it seems like it might be the case now. For instance, in the past, whenever a free agent or traded player came here and played with Kobe (in the post Shaq era) they almost always became a more efficient offensive player. Mihm, Butler, Odom, Kwame, all these guys shot career highs in FG% as Lakers. I think Atkins shot his second best career FG% for a season. Smush Parker had this best years as a Laker. In all of Derek's 17 NBA seasons, want to know which one he shot the best in? His first year back as a Laker along Kobe.


Well.... you've got a rep here for this line of thought. I for one don't agree with it. Playing on the floor with Kobe makes you better for a number of reasons. Let's look at an "older" example..... Kareem. He didn't pass a lot... it wasn't his job.... most of the "Showtime" years he walked up the court and that was only if the fast break was thwarted.... yet when he was in the post guys like Worthy got to be one of the 50 greatest when he was barely one of the 150 greatest.... Magic had wide open lanes to drive while being 6'-9" tall and 230 lbs... Scott got wide open shots because everyone was focused on Kareem. Kobe does the same things for his teammates. He's the focus of the defense at all times because he's the best overall player on our team.... period.


I don't disagree with any of most of this. In theory it makes sense. In the past, it has shown to be true. In recent seasons, I just don't really see it to the same degree. Who is playing better after coming here? I certainly thought Sessions did but that's really about it.

Rooscooter wrote:Your comment about "recent years" is puzzling.... outside of Barnes who have we signed that has been worth a damn to make better?


Not sure what is puzzling about it. The centerpiece of my point is that I don't think Kobe has made his teammates better the last couple of seasons. It doesn't matter if they are worth a damn. Mihm never was, neither was Kwame or anyone else. But when they came here, they all played better than they had. They shot more efficiently than ever before. That is what I would previously call the Kobe effect. What happened to it? You're saying it's there. Ok, with whom? It's nice to talk about Kareem and theorize, but I'm not seeing it in action as of late. It should be obvious the way it was obvious back in the day with him. It should be as obvious as it is obvious when you see Nash steps on the court, boom, people play better. That impact is not there the way it used to be.

Rooscooter wrote:If you are talking about Howard I'm not sure what are getting at either. The ones who thought Howard was going to come in here and get 15 shots a game and be the focus of our offense are the ones not seeing things clearly IMO.


Well, no, I've been one who said I didn't think he could reproduce his Orlando numbers since he is no longer a focal point of the team on offense. I have been on record however, with saying he should average career highs in shooting playing along a threat like Kobe. That hasn't happened.

In fact, while Howard's scoring efficiency is still relatively good, his FG% is his second worst so far this season. Now some of that may have to do with his injury, but I'm not exactly seeing him get the ball in very favorable situations either. I'm not seeing the "Kobe effect" we used to see with players. Kwame, Mihm, Odom all shot career highs in FG% when they came to play with Kobe.

Rooscooter wrote:Bynum got about 13 shots a game with 5.6 FTA's a game. In our previous scheme I expected about the same number of attempts or less because of the fact we have so many other options on this team. He is at about 11 shots and 10 FTA a game or roughly the same total number of touches.... The new scheme isn't nearly as post up dependent so it would seem that his touches in the post will be fewer.... and they are. Kobe is getting more touches...... and most of them is much better scoring areas.... thus his efficiency is higher this year.

As long as Kobe is on the team he will demand to be the primary scorer until HE doesn't want that anymore.... judging from his comments last year about "eating first" that isn't going to be anytime soon. The only player that isn't able to take advantage of the better looks his presence creates this year is Pau.... MWP is better, Howard is about the same while recovering from injury and 90% of that is without Nash who should help even more.

As for the "carrying" comment.... Kobe has been forced into that role this year... that's my take... it seems that you feel like he's doing that for his own edification.


It does seem like Nash & Howard being here has made Kobe better, there is no doubt about that. You can see it in the numbers and you can see it on the floor as well. The whole point has been about seeing it the other way around.

Completely disagree that Kobe has been forced in to that role. By whom? By himself? I mean, why is Kobe the only player in the league who is held at gunpoint and forced to take 41 shots in a game?

The biggest misconception about my issues with Kobe's shooting is that it is for his own edification. I don't think that. At all. I think Kobe does it with great intentions actually and even with the team first and foremost in mind. I think he really thinks, this is the best thing for the team, is for me to put them on my back offensively and I'll carry the offensive load when we miss a couple of shots. Whether that's the appropriate strategy for elevating the overall play of this team is what I question.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:03 pm

MassDaIllest wrote:Its January. If the playoffs started today, the Lakers would not make the playoffs.... Sure, Kobe is in the MVP discussion.

(SMH)


You should Shake Your Head because that logic is tragic.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby pound4pound1 on Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:23 pm

he's absolutely MVP material...



between all the injuries and coaching changes, he's done all he can and has been playing lights out on offense...however, they dont give out that award to players on .500 teams
.
Jerry Buss wrote:One of the biggest reasons I bought the Lakers was to beat the Celtics …..you just got it into your soul that you couldn't stand the Celtics anymore
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby MassDaIllest on Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:07 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
MassDaIllest wrote:Its January. If the playoffs started today, the Lakers would not make the playoffs.... Sure, Kobe is in the MVP discussion.

(SMH)


You should Shake Your Head because that logic is tragic.

I guess youre takinq my post there serious.... If so, then yeah, I cant argue that..

Ha! Ha! Ha!
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby LTLakerFan on Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:19 pm

What was the" SMH" about?
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby LooN3y on Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:37 pm

i think a lot of posters get confused with

"Is Kobe MVP MATERIAL"

and

"Is Kobe MVP"
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