LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:57 pm

He's of course a candidate but not a very strong one. Not when you have guys like Durant and LeBron in the league
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby abeer3 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:58 pm

IF they rallied and got a top 4 seed and he continued at this pace, i'd think he'd be in the conversation. right now, he's rightfully not in it.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JGC on Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:16 pm

abeer3 wrote:IF they rallied and got a top 4 seed and he continued at this pace, i'd think he'd be in the conversation. right now, he's rightfully not in it.


Even then, I don't know if he'd be in that conversation. A 4th seed would be a major fail relative to pre-season expectations. I think he would have to put up some astronomical individual numbers the rest of the way to make up for team record because OKC would probably be one of those top 3 seeds and Durant has comparable numbers right now.

Remember when Hollinger predicted we'd finish as the 4th seed and everyone in here went nuts saying how much of a hater he was? That's how high expectations were of this team going in so I'm not sure how the leader of any team can get an MVP if he leads his team to lower than expectations. Unless, he has an astronomical individual season statistically that can make up for that record.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Chillbongo on Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:16 pm

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:He's of course a candidate but not a very strong one. Not when you have guys like Durant and LeBron in the league

I don't buy this logic.
Does Kobe not have a chance because of PLAYERS like Durant and LeBron, or because of TEAMS like the Thunder & Heat? Huge huge difference.

In Kobe's MVP season, his numbers were on par with his career numbers.That same season, Lebron averaged 30 ppg (1 of 2 years in his 10 years), and rebounded, assisted, and blocked at a higher rate than Kobe. While shooting a better %. But his team was 4th in the east.And so he did not even come in the top 3 of voting.

Also CP3 averaged nearly 12 assists, 3 steals, 21ppg, and shot a better %. And the hornets were 1 game back from the #1 seed. And yet Kobe recieved 54 more first place votes than CP3. Because the Lakers were the best team.

If by that measure, Kobe doesn't win this year than so be it. But if this team was top 2 in the west, he damn well better be in the MVP race.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:02 pm

Yeah I'm going to be all kinds of blunt because it pisses me off he only has one MVP. The way people go and nit piclk Kobe every time the MVP discussion is brought up annoys the hell out of me. First it's team record, then it's whether he's shooting better or not which he is and he's shooting better than his entire career average.


LeBron and Durant are younger, so of course they're gonna be a little more skilled in certain areas, but their numbers have also taken a backseat this season, they're efficient and their team's records are a bit better, but Kobe has also been pretty efficient in many games this season.

Carmelo like I SAID was mentioned on ESPN as an 2013 MVP candidate and could he win it, that was the discussion. He has far less steals and assist then Kobe and is shooting a lower percentage yet people are oozing over him this season, see the bias?

Derrick Rose won the MVP with a 43% field goal percentage and a lot of other players were better in that area, he averaged 7 assists a game but so Rajon Rondo and we know, no one considered him MVP discussion worthy.

With Kobe imo it feels like people just don't want to admit not wanting him to even get 1 more MVP. I think people are annoyed by it. I mean like what does he have left like 1 or 2 more seasons as if that's gonna interfere with LeBron, Durant, Chris Paul or anyone else's chances of getting like 4 more if they wanted to. People are obsessed with stats, scoring, and percentages the last several MVP's otuside of LeBron was based on the team's record and whatever statistical season the best player on that tewm is having as a contribution, that's fine if that's the formula they want to go by cool. But any other player with Kobe's seasons would be considered and MVP candidate just by conersation despite their record. Kobe can't even crack the conversation that's foolish.
Also LeBron and Kevin aren't even in the top 5 regardng rebounds or assists, Kobe's assists and rebounds are slightly up, but it doesn't matter his contributions are still amazing even with his age and wear and tear. It's just annoying and unfortunate.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby odom1year on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:10 pm

Kobe is MVP material. But the team record is not helping him to get that trophy.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Finwë on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:17 pm

revgen wrote:He is.

Team isn't.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby King of Clutch on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:23 pm

Without a doubt, no question. Only thing holding him back is the teams record. If they were in the top 3 in the west, kobe would be the league leading mvp candidate in my opinion. Just because of what he's doing, with the amount of minutes and years he's played. He's older than any other candidate by at least 6 years. Its just unreal.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JGC on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:32 pm

Jazzygirl205 wrote:Yeah I'm going to be all kinds of blunt because it pisses me off he only has one MVP. The way people go and nit piclk Kobe every time the MVP discussion is brought up annoys the hell out of me. First it's team record, then it's whether he's shooting better or not which he is and he's shooting better than his entire career average


Even though the team wasn't great, that they were even able to win 45 games and make the playoffs solely because of Kobe's amazing season should have been enough. I'm talking about 2005-2006. But people don't just nitpick Kobe. They nitpick every MVP candidate. First world problems I guess. It's not "first its team record" then "whether he's shooting better" it's all of those things at once. You have to shoot well, score efficiently, defend well, make your teammates better, lead your team to a winning record. The standards for MVP should be high, at least, higher than having your name be Kobe Bryant right?

Jazzygirl205 wrote:[i][b]LeBron and Durant are younger, so of course they're gonna be a little more skilled in certain areas, but their numbers have also taken a backseat this season, they're efficient and their team's records are a bit better, but Kobe has also been pretty efficient in many games this season.


It's not necessarily about their numbers relative to their own numbers in the previous season. It's about their numbers now, relative to everyone else's numbers now. Both LBJ and KD have better individual numbers than Kobe this season (so far).

Jazzygirl205 wrote:[i][b]Carmelo like I SAID was mentioned on ESPN as an 2013 MVP candidate and could he win it, that was the discussion. He has far less steals and assist then Kobe and is shooting a lower percentage yet people are oozing over him this season, see the bias?


I don't see the bias there. The Knicks, at the time, were one of the top teams in the league led by Carmelo. And I would ask you WHO said he was an MVP candidate because I didn't see that segment but I did read online that Ian Begley stated he thought Melo was an MVP candidate. The reason people were oozing over Melo is because again, at the time the segment aired, the Knicks were like 15-5 and dominating people and they were led by Carmelo Anthony who was putting up nice numbers.

Jazzygirl205 wrote:[i][b]Derrick Rose won the MVP with a 43% field goal percentage and a lot of other players were better in that area, he averaged 7 assists a game but so Rajon Rondo and we know, no one considered him MVP discussion worthy.


Kind of looks like you're nitpicking now =) You have to understand how this works and look at the totality of things. It's not the player with the best FG%, and most points, and most assists and most rebounds and most blocks and most steals and most wins, etc. It's a combination of the player's stats in conjunction with the performance of the team. The adage has been repeated over and over. Best player on best team (where best does not necessarily have to mean empirically more stats or wins as there is room for context here).

Jazzygirl205 wrote:[i][b]With Kobe imo it feels like people just don't want to admit not wanting him to even get 1 more MVP. I think people are annoyed by it. I mean like what does he have left like 1 or 2 more seasons as if that's gonna interfere with LeBron, Durant, Chris Paul or anyone else's chances of getting like 4 more if they wanted to. People are obsessed with stats, scoring, and percentages the last several MVP's otuside of LeBron was based on the team's record and whatever statistical season the best player on that tewm is having as a contribution, that's fine if that's the formula they want to go by cool. But any other player with Kobe's seasons would be considered and MVP candidate just by conersation despite their record. Kobe can't even crack the conversation that's foolish.
Also LeBron and Kevin aren't even in the top 5 regardng rebounds or assists, Kobe's assists and rebounds are slightly up, but it doesn't matter his contributions are still amazing even with his age and wear and tear. It's just annoying and unfortunate.


I think you're more emotionally vested than most in this and that's why you feel that way. And that's ok, nothing wrong with that. I'm more a team/franchise guy than invested in a particular player but I get it. I'm not sure if the fact that Kobe has 1 or 2 seasons left has any relevance whatsoever in the MVP discussion. For me, I wouldn't want it to be a pity party award. You should have to earn it young, old, black, white, tall or short.

People are obsessed with stats you are right and I'm not a huge fan either of the way that they seem to do what you're saying which is pick the best team and then give it to that team's best player. I'm not entirely sure they do that all of the time though. Having said that, the goal of competing in a professional basketball league is to win games and so wins should count for something if not a whole lot. But it's not like they have a formula per se. And even if they did, people would still complain the way they do about the BCS rankings.

In the new world, a player with Kobe's season would not be considered because in order to be considered you have to also elevate the level of your team's play either to an extremely high level or, to an extremely unexpected level. (For instance, if John Wall posted 35 pts, 15 assists and 9 rebounds per game and led the Wizards to a 4th seed in the East or something). His age is not and should NOT be a factor in this discussion. I don't think players above or below certain ages should get extra 'points'. That doesn't make sense to me.

I"m not sure about the point about KD and LBJ in rebounds or assists. The requirement isn't that you have to be top 5 in those categories. Remember to look at the totality of things. People tend to get upset when they look at one or two things and scream "WHY?" but if you look at the totality of things, understand how the awards are handed out, it'll make more sense. You might take issue with HOW the MVP award is determined in general and I think there is merit to a discussion on the definition of 'valuable' but it's set right now.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JGC on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:35 pm

King of Clutch wrote:Without a doubt, no question. Only thing holding him back is the teams record. If they were in the top 3 in the west, kobe would be the league leading mvp candidate in my opinion. Just because of what he's doing, with the amount of minutes and years he's played. He's older than any other candidate by at least 6 years. Its just unreal.


To be fair, an MVP candidate by definition must have a good team record. I know what you're saying but to say he's an MVP candidate no doubt except for the team record, is like taking a player without great stats on the league's best team and saying without a doubt, no question and only thing holding him back is his stats.

I think we'd have to be a #2 seed at WORST for him to be considered under the current definitions. The preseason expectations were just WAY too high for this team and if there is anything unfair about awards like this, that would be it because the whole world expected us to be the top seed coming in especially after OKC lost Harden.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby King of Clutch on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:39 pm

JGC wrote:
King of Clutch wrote:Without a doubt, no question. Only thing holding him back is the teams record. If they were in the top 3 in the west, kobe would be the league leading mvp candidate in my opinion. Just because of what he's doing, with the amount of minutes and years he's played. He's older than any other candidate by at least 6 years. Its just unreal.


To be fair, an MVP candidate by definition must have a good team record. I know what you're saying but to say he's an MVP candidate no doubt except for the team record, is like taking a player without great stats on the league's best team and saying without a doubt, no question and only thing holding him back is his stats.

I think we'd have to be a #2 seed at WORST for him to be considered under the current definitions. The preseason expectations were just WAY too high for this team and if there is anything unfair about awards like this, that would be it because the whole world expected us to be the top seed coming in especially after OKC lost Harden.
Thats why I brought up team record. Because thats definitely a factor. And the original post wanted us to comment on that. But excluding that, there's no reason whatsoever why he WOULDN'T be an mvp candidate. And no, I disagree, a 3 seed is enough to put him in that discussion in my opinion. Given how great the western conference is. Top 2 in the east is like top FOUR in the west. lol
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby cthroatgtr on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:51 pm

MVP is one of the dumbest awards in sports...sports writers make up and change the rules for voting to suit their needs. Lakers go 82-0 and they would try and give the MVP to someone else. If Kobe can average over 35 ppg with a team that started Smush, Kwame & Luke to end the year and only finish 4th is all you need to know.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Showtime.Revival.05 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:54 pm

i could see the media championing him as a dark horse candidate depending on how the rest of the season unfolds. pretty much everyone agrees he deserves more than one mvp for his career, if the lakers can get to a top 3 seed in the west (asking a lot) i think he's got a real shot
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JGC on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:05 pm

King of Clutch wrote:
JGC wrote:
King of Clutch wrote:Without a doubt, no question. Only thing holding him back is the teams record. If they were in the top 3 in the west, kobe would be the league leading mvp candidate in my opinion. Just because of what he's doing, with the amount of minutes and years he's played. He's older than any other candidate by at least 6 years. Its just unreal.


To be fair, an MVP candidate by definition must have a good team record. I know what you're saying but to say he's an MVP candidate no doubt except for the team record, is like taking a player without great stats on the league's best team and saying without a doubt, no question and only thing holding him back is his stats.

I think we'd have to be a #2 seed at WORST for him to be considered under the current definitions. The preseason expectations were just WAY too high for this team and if there is anything unfair about awards like this, that would be it because the whole world expected us to be the top seed coming in especially after OKC lost Harden.
Thats why I brought up team record. Because thats definitely a factor. And the original post wanted us to comment on that. But excluding that, there's no reason whatsoever why he WOULDN'T be an mvp candidate. And no, I disagree, a 3 seed is enough to put him in that discussion in my opinion. Given how great the western conference is. Top 2 in the east is like top FOUR in the west. lol


Well, the reason I say #2 seed or better is because that's what was expected of us. So we'd have to at least meet the expectation. We were the #3 seed last year. And we upgraded big time at center and at point guard as well. So the expectation for this year coming in was that we would fair better than last year in the regular season.

I think a #3 seed or lower is still possible for Kobe but he has to put up better individual stats because all around they aren't better than KD or LBJ. There's still time for him to do that but it will have to come in the assists department for him. If he's putting up 30 pts and dishing out like 7 assists and we're a 3 seed then I could see it.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JGC on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:07 pm

cthroatgtr wrote:MVP is one of the dumbest awards in sports...sports writers make up and change the rules for voting to suit their needs. Lakers go 82-0 and they would try and give the MVP to someone else. If Kobe can average over 35 ppg with a team that started Smush, Kwame & Luke to end the year and only finish 4th is all you need to know.


I disagree. If we go 82-0, Kobe wins it, easily. He's won it despite us going 82-0 so I don't know if that argument carries much weight.

In that year when he had 35 PPG, I think he should have won it too but we were the 7th seed and not a very good team (although better than expectations) and so I think that was the determining factor there.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby King of Clutch on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:59 pm

JGC wrote:
King of Clutch wrote:
JGC wrote:
King of Clutch wrote:Without a doubt, no question. Only thing holding him back is the teams record. If they were in the top 3 in the west, kobe would be the league leading mvp candidate in my opinion. Just because of what he's doing, with the amount of minutes and years he's played. He's older than any other candidate by at least 6 years. Its just unreal.


To be fair, an MVP candidate by definition must have a good team record. I know what you're saying but to say he's an MVP candidate no doubt except for the team record, is like taking a player without great stats on the league's best team and saying without a doubt, no question and only thing holding him back is his stats.

I think we'd have to be a #2 seed at WORST for him to be considered under the current definitions. The preseason expectations were just WAY too high for this team and if there is anything unfair about awards like this, that would be it because the whole world expected us to be the top seed coming in especially after OKC lost Harden.
Thats why I brought up team record. Because thats definitely a factor. And the original post wanted us to comment on that. But excluding that, there's no reason whatsoever why he WOULDN'T be an mvp candidate. And no, I disagree, a 3 seed is enough to put him in that discussion in my opinion. Given how great the western conference is. Top 2 in the east is like top FOUR in the west. lol


Well, the reason I say #2 seed or better is because that's what was expected of us. So we'd have to at least meet the expectation. We were the #3 seed last year. And we upgraded big time at center and at point guard as well. So the expectation for this year coming in was that we would fair better than last year in the regular season.

I think a #3 seed or lower is still possible for Kobe but he has to put up better individual stats because all around they aren't better than KD or LBJ. There's still time for him to do that but it will have to come in the assists department for him. If he's putting up 30 pts and dishing out like 7 assists and we're a 3 seed then I could see it.

lol I don't think you fully understand what goes into being an mvp. Stats aren't everything. Kobe's high fg%, leadership, and probably the only player in nba history with his amount of gametime and years doing the things he's doing will put him in the conversation. I'm not saying its an automatic trophy, i'm just saying he'll automatically be in the discussion. And try to think about what seeds mean. Seeds are defined by teams records. Last year, we would not be a 3 seed in this years western conference. You keep saying "#2 seed". If we are off the #2 seed by less than 4 games, it won't make any difference to anyone when it comes to mvp discussion. And when people "expected" #2 seed, they were more likely talking about team quality in the west, and being behind okc, more than anything else.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby King of Clutch on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:59 pm

Anyways, thats my opinion, and i'm not going to debate it any further. This discussion is extremely irrelevent at this point. I'm honestly more worried about the team collectively than kobe's mvp status.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby LOL on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:51 am

i swear i've seen the exact thread with the exact replies in 2005.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby laker911 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:44 am

Doesn't matter who has the best season because in the end we all know LeBum will be handed the award again. Not that it might be undeserving, but no matter what happens he will still get it.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Ariza3 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:56 am

itll be lebron or melo. lebron bc its lebron. and melo bc the knicks are winning. kobe is playing better than melo but isnt winning. durant is too young to be looked at better than lebron but i think hes a strong candidate for mvp.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:42 am

Chillbongo wrote:
JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:He's of course a candidate but not a very strong one. Not when you have guys like Durant and LeBron in the league

I don't buy this logic.
Does Kobe not have a chance because of PLAYERS like Durant and LeBron, or because of TEAMS like the Thunder & Heat? Huge huge difference.

In Kobe's MVP season, his numbers were on par with his career numbers.That same season, Lebron averaged 30 ppg (1 of 2 years in his 10 years), and rebounded, assisted, and blocked at a higher rate than Kobe. While shooting a better %. But his team was 4th in the east.And so he did not even come in the top 3 of voting.

Also CP3 averaged nearly 12 assists, 3 steals, 21ppg, and shot a better %. And the hornets were 1 game back from the #1 seed. And yet Kobe recieved 54 more first place votes than CP3. Because the Lakers were the best team.

If by that measure, Kobe doesn't win this year than so be it. But if this team was top 2 in the west, he damn well better be in the MVP race.


Even if the Lakers had a decent record I would still give the MVP to LeBron or Durant before Kobe (especially KD). They have played better than Kobe imo. They are both much better defensively as well
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby themasterphil on Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:52 am

NO. He is just awful on defensive end, shots too many time and right now he is not a good leader of this team...but the most important thing is our team record. Lakers are out of the PO, so Kobe cant be included in MVP talks.If we finish 2 or 3, which is almost impossible , then maybe but imo Lebron is MVP bc he is truly most valuable player in this league. Sorry Kobe but its true.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:11 am

If anyone cares Kevin Durant nor LeBron are not even in the top 5 in blocks, steals, assists or rebounds this season, but.... Winning record or not Kobe still probably won't be MVP material. If we had a great record and his numbers weren't as they are this season he'd be considered "SLACKING" and not as dominant, some felt he didn't deserve it in 2008 though we had a winning record. He has the numbers but our team isn't good and still the same "He can't win it because a,b,c, I don't get it?? How was he voted player of the last decade with one MVP, something has to give.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JGC on Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:48 am

Jazzygirl205 wrote:If anyone cares Kevin Durant nor LeBron are not even in the top 5 in blocks, steals, assists or rebounds this season, but.... Winning record or not Kobe still probably won't be MVP material. If we had a great record and his numbers weren't as they are this season he'd be considered "SLACKING" and not as dominant, some felt he didn't deserve it in 2008 though we had a winning record. He has the numbers but our team isn't good and still the same "He can't win it because a,b,c, I don't get it?? How was he voted player of the last decade with one MVP, something has to give.


Nobody cares about KD/LBJ not being top 5 in blocks for example because it would be pointless to care about that. You gotta look at the totality of the picture here. Who are the players posting elite stats this year? KD, LBJ and Kobe.

Ok, so now you look at who has made their team better (so far) and has exceeded expectations? In my book, it's Kevin Durant. The Heat improved in the offseason adding multiple 3pt shooters in Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis. Meanwhile, the Thunder basically stayed the same but lost the 6th man of the year in James Harden.

Now I know that's probably not how you want to look at it but that's the way the MVP voters look at it. Who is having a monster season and then who has made their team better. Kobe has not made his team better (yet). Hopefully, breaking it down that way will help you make sense of how the MVP is awarded.

Now, frankly, I find this a more intriguing proposition. Let's remove KD and LBJ from the conversation because their inclusion is just too obvious. Who should get the MVP so far this season by the current definition of the MVP? Chris Paul or Kobe Bryant? That's actually a tough one IMO. I guess you'd have to give it to CP3 but if the Lakers were playoff bound then maybe Kobe gets the edge? I dunno.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby KB24 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:47 pm

Finwë wrote:
revgen wrote:He is.

Team isn't.
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