LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby retro_nights on Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:10 am

No.

Nash deserves more of it at this point. How can they give Kobe MVP if we don't have a top record? Doesn't help Kobe's case that we could barely be .500 without Nash and with Nash we're a much better team. That discredits Kobe.

Its CP3, Lebron, or Durant. Kobe will be lucky to get in the top 5 of voting if only be reputation.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Cleansed on Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:19 am

Kobe is putting up MVP caliber numbers

The team isnt...and that includes Nash. However.... a point guard of average to above average quality was needed to complete this team (to balance this team).

This reminds one that may have forgotten that an MVP caliber individual player is still hamstrung by the quality of his teammates (or lack of healthy teammates).


Detroit vs. Miami tonight was a reminder of that.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Chillbongo on Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:30 am

Cleansed wrote:Kobe is putting up MVP caliber numbers

The team isnt...and that includes Nash. However.... a point guard of average to above average quality was needed to complete this team (to balance this team).

This reminds one that may have forgotten that an MVP caliber individual player is still hamstrung by the quality of his teammates (or lack of healthy teammates).


Detroit vs. Miami tonight was a reminder of that.


Exactly, it's not only about Nash. The team needed a better floor general to improve period. If we didn't have Nash but had Sessions, we'd have looked better than we did the first 24 or so games.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:43 am

Adding Ray Allen or playing along side Bosh and Wade didn't knock LeBron's MVP chances. Durant and Russell pretty much was playing like Batman and Robin last season and it didn't knock the MVP discussion with Durant, so why are Kobe's chances always knocked? If we had somebody like Smush Parker as long as he plays decent along side Kobe somehow his chances will still be dim :man10:
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Magic Skywalker on Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:45 am

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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby FabFourLakers on Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:59 am

Unfortunately, like others have said, nash coming back and playing well is going to hurt any chances Kobe had at the MVP award. The Lakers were below .500 before Nash came back, and now they're most likely going to be above it since he came back, and Kobe will ultimately be judged by those first 20 something games that he played WITHOUT Nash. Is Kobe putting up MVP numbers? Yes, absolutely. But his team's record is just not good enough. The Lakers would literally have to finish #1 in the LEAGUE for Kobe to get MVP at this point....the media will always find a way to discredit Kobe and give it to someone else...it made me upset that LeBron got it last year and his team didn't even have the best record in the EAST! That's why I'm a little confused as to how they're determining this award now....I THOUGHT it was best player on best team....but I think the way it really works is this....they look at the best teams, if those "top teams" don't have a top player on their squad, like a lebron, durant, melo type of player, then they'll be overlooked (Spurs, Bulls last year), and they'll go to the next best team with the best player....but weird thing is THUNDER finished with a better record than the Heat last year and they still gave it to LEBRON. I feel like it's going to be LeBron from here on out....

Even if the Lakers finished with a top record, tops in the league or top 4 in the west, Kobe won't get the credit. His team would be labeled "too good" and unfortunately, they will probably be right. Nash will have really helped the team, and honestly if the Lakers have a HUGE turnaround, I wouldn't be surprised to see Nash in the MVP discussion if he is orchestrating the offense like a wizard and making everyone around him better. He DID win 2 of these awards in this offense....

Still though 30-5-5 in your 17th NBA season....that's literally unheard of. I hope the Lakers end up with a top record and Kobe is still putting up 27-5-5....he would have to get consideration, but I know he won't. Media will always find a way to not give it to him so they'll hope the Heat, Thunder, Clippers or Knicks will have a top record. At this point, I'd say Chris Paul is the leader....i could see him getting MVP if the Clippers finish with the best record in the league...which is looking very likely right now.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby bumrusherer on Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:46 am

Pobably not...Lebron has it in the bag every year until he drops his level or the voters get sick of him. Over the past few years, the difference between him and everyone else has been quite large.

Kobe these days wont get the defensive love either. More and more folks are understanding that he hasnt been playing good defense for quite a while...where as Lebron is arguably the best defender in the sport.

Kobe should get All NBA 1st team again though, which is a great achievement 17 years in.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby trodgers on Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:45 am

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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JGC on Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:04 am

FabFourLakers wrote:Unfortunately, like others have said, nash coming back and playing well is going to hurt any chances Kobe had at the MVP award. The Lakers were below .500 before Nash came back, and now they're most likely going to be above it since he came back, and Kobe will ultimately be judged by those first 20 something games that he played WITHOUT Nash. Is Kobe putting up MVP numbers? Yes, absolutely. But his team's record is just not good enough. The Lakers would literally have to finish #1 in the LEAGUE for Kobe to get MVP at this point....the media will always find a way to discredit Kobe and give it to someone else...it made me upset that LeBron got it last year and his team didn't even have the best record in the EAST! That's why I'm a little confused as to how they're determining this award now....I THOUGHT it was best player on best team....but I think the way it really works is this....they look at the best teams, if those "top teams" don't have a top player on their squad, like a lebron, durant, melo type of player, then they'll be overlooked (Spurs, Bulls last year), and they'll go to the next best team with the best player....but weird thing is THUNDER finished with a better record than the Heat last year and they still gave it to LEBRON. I feel like it's going to be LeBron from here on out....


I agree with you that the Lakers would probably have to finish 1st (maybe 2nd at worst) for Kobe to get an MVP. I think a major part of that is because of the expectation the media, fans (including Laker fans) had for the team going in, more so than anything else. If you're the leader of a team and your team performs at a level that is below expectations, that will be a knock so you better stand alone in the numbers department to make up for that. If Kobe averaged say, 40 pts/game, then I could see that making up for the deficit in the team success department.

I disagree the media will always find a way to discredit Kobe and give it to someone else since they already gave Kobe one of the awards so that can't be true.

I also don't agree with the method you suggested they use. I think they look at the top players posting big numbers and then look at their respective team's performance. The reason for this, is if they looked at teams first, then Kobe wouldn't have finished 4th back in 2005-2006, he would have been left off completely since we weren't a top team.

Lebron definitely deserved it last year IMO. His numbers last year were just ridiculous. I don't even know if anyone in the modern era can match all of his numbers like that overall (28 pts, 8 rebs, 6 assists, 2 stls all on good percentages). As for the Heat's record, it's not as simple as the record, per se. You have to have a top seed, yes, and they finished 1 game behind OKC in the standings but LBJ didn't even play in 3 of the final 4 games of the season to rest for the playoffs and they lost all of those and the only game he played in during that span they won. Best team does mean the team has to have a top seed, but the best team doesn't always have THE top seed. (For instance, Lakers did not have the best record in the league the year Kobe won MVP).

FabFourLakers wrote:Even if the Lakers finished with a top record, tops in the league or top 4 in the west, Kobe won't get the credit. His team would be labeled "too good" and unfortunately, they will probably be right. Nash will have really helped the team, and honestly if the Lakers have a HUGE turnaround, I wouldn't be surprised to see Nash in the MVP discussion if he is orchestrating the offense like a wizard and making everyone around him better. He DID win 2 of these awards in this offense....


Again, I don't agree Kobe's team would be labeled too good just as LBJ's wasn't when he won. For Kobe to win, the Lakers have to meet or exceed team expectations going in and also put up elite stats individually.

Nash will not be considered. His stats won't justify it. Not having stats and helping a team with Kobe, Dwight and Pau on it isn't going to get you any accolades. He'd have to get close to his MVP years stats to win like 18/19 pts, 12 assists, and shooting efficiency that is extremely rare (50/40/90 territory). He won't get enough minutes to tally these types of numbers.

FabFourLakers wrote:Still though 30-5-5 in your 17th NBA season....that's literally unheard of. I hope the Lakers end up with a top record and Kobe is still putting up 27-5-5....he would have to get consideration, but I know he won't. Media will always find a way to not give it to him so they'll hope the Heat, Thunder, Clippers or Knicks will have a top record. At this point, I'd say Chris Paul is the leader....i could see him getting MVP if the Clippers finish with the best record in the league...which is looking very likely right now.


I agree. What Kobe is doing at his age is amazing. To average 30 pts at ANY age is incredible. Having said that, his age is a non-factor and should be in the MVP discussion at least. I mean, we could go get a guy that is 50 years old and any stats he posts would be unheard of as well. That shouldn't put him in the MVP discussion. CP3 may be in the discussion but he can't win. His numbers aren't good enough due to him playing only like 32 mins/game.

The whole thing about the media finding ways not to give it to him is silly. They already gave him one. So how does that argument have any merit? It doesn't. Here's the thing about MVP. MVP is kind of like adult material. You can't spell it out or draw a line, but you know it when you see it. In other words, the fact that there is a debate on whether Kobe is even an MVP, already puts in question whether he is truly a viable candidate this season.

Either way, who cares. It seems like everyone thinks it's a pointless award anyway right? And he's our MVP so that's all that matters, right? I'd rather he spend time on getting this team to play to its potential anyway.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby therealdeal on Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:08 am

retro_nights wrote:No.

Nash deserves more of it at this point. How can they give Kobe MVP if we don't have a top record? Doesn't help Kobe's case that we could barely be .500 without Nash and with Nash we're a much better team. That discredits Kobe.

Its CP3, Lebron, or Durant. Kobe will be lucky to get in the top 5 of voting if only be reputation.

This argument is awful.

Nash came back and elevated our team because a) the offense was built for him b) D'Antoni didn't start trying to coach until Nash got healthy and c) because the offense is built and designed for him to find the defenses weaknesses and exploit them.

How does Nash deserve it more than Kobe? Because the team started winning when Nash came back? So what? If Wade or Bosh goes down the Heat will have a tougher time winning (evidence last night). Does that mean that LeBron doesn't deserve the MVP?
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:17 am

bumrusherer wrote:Pobably not...Lebron has it in the bag every year until he drops his level or the voters get sick of him. Over the past few years, the difference between him and everyone else has been quite large.

Kobe these days wont get the defensive love either. More and more folks are understanding that he hasnt been playing good defense for quite a while...where as Lebron is arguably the best defender in the sport.

Kobe should get All NBA 1st team again though, which is a great achievement 17 years in.


Hmmmm debatable has he lead in blocks, steals, and keeping his opponents field goal percentage lower? He's far better than Kobe defensively but, also depends on much like the MVP award what you assume qualifies to make such claim.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Startrex on Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:18 am

Not until we have impressive winning record. But Nash will get the votes that "hurt" his teammate's chance.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Pig Miller on Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:36 am

stats wise, definitely.

record wise, not until we can sustain a record above .500 and go on a solid 12-3 type run of games.

mvp awards don't go to marginal playoff teams.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JGC on Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:47 am

^ And rightfully so IMO.

Unless... an individual has stats so beyond those of his peers that it warrants greater weight in the decision.

In 2005-2006, I think that was certainly the case and I suppose it was since Kobe did receive some votes though finished fourth.

But this year, his stats aren't good enough to offset the poor performance of the team IMO since there are at least two peers with better all around stats.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:28 am

Right now I'd have to say that CP3 and Melo would be the likely MVP's if the season ended now.... They are on teams that the League desperately wants to be relevant again. Those teams have winning records and most importantly are in large TV markets. The business partners at ESPN and TNT would all fall in line because it would lead to more viewership and more revenues for them as well. People are going to watch the Lakers anyway because of the long established fan base and winning history. It makes no business sense to "promote" the most popular team or its players. In fact overlooking them leads to more interest.....

While neither of those guys is a MVP in my mind that's how it works these days it seems.

Right now the true most valuable player out there is either Kobe or LeBron IMO.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Pig Miller on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:30 am

^good point on that '04-'05 season

i generally think you can get a sense of how the mvp voting will go simply based off of media comments. this year, the front runners are lbj, durant, and melo (though i think he'll fall off).

on the flip side, the lakers have been getting killed by the media for their .500 start, and kobe has taken a chunk of that with all the talk of his "he shoots too much and that's the reason for the losses" reasoning

to me, kobe is a top 5 player of all time (with KAJ, Magic, Michael, and Russell), yet he's only got 1 MVP on his mantle, crazy.

on that note, shaq should probably have a couple as well, but the MVP voting all of a sudden became not who wa the best player but who surpassed the media's expectations.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JGC on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:36 am

Rooscooter wrote:Right now I'd have to say that CP3 and Melo would be the likely MVP's if the season ended now.... They are on teams that the League desperately wants to be relevant again. Those teams have winning records and most importantly are in large TV markets. The business partners at ESPN and TNT would all fall in line because it would lead to more viewership and more revenues for them as well. People are going to watch the Lakers anyway because of the long established fan base and winning history. It makes no business sense to "promote" the most popular team or its players. In fact overlooking them leads to more interest.....

While neither of those guys is a MVP in my mind that's how it works these days it seems.

Right now the true most valuable player out there is either Kobe or LeBron IMO.


How would Kobe be more of an MVP this season than Durant though?

KD is posting a 50/40/90 so far on the year. That is incredible. I'm not even sure if that has ever been done by a non-guard. He's putting up 28.4 PPG, 8.1 RPG, and 4.1 APG to go with 1.5 STL and 1.4 BLK per game.

Oh, and his team is winning despite losing the 6th man of the year. In my mind, right now, Durant stands alone at clearcut MVP with LBJ right there too.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby therealdeal on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:38 am

Well that's your opinion.

I think there's four players that have pulled away from the pack and you could make an argument for: Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, and Carmelo Anthony. The dark horse number five is Chris Paul.

There's great arguments to be made for all of those guys. It's a fun MVP race.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:41 am

JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Right now I'd have to say that CP3 and Melo would be the likely MVP's if the season ended now.... They are on teams that the League desperately wants to be relevant again. Those teams have winning records and most importantly are in large TV markets. The business partners at ESPN and TNT would all fall in line because it would lead to more viewership and more revenues for them as well. People are going to watch the Lakers anyway because of the long established fan base and winning history. It makes no business sense to "promote" the most popular team or its players. In fact overlooking them leads to more interest.....

While neither of those guys is a MVP in my mind that's how it works these days it seems.

Right now the true most valuable player out there is either Kobe or LeBron IMO.


How would Kobe be more of an MVP this season than Durant though?

KD is posting a 50/40/90 so far on the year. That is incredible. I'm not even sure if that has ever been done by a non-guard. He's putting up 28.4 PPG, 8.1 RPG, and 4.1 APG to go with 1.5 STL and 1.4 BLK per game.

Oh, and his team is winning despite losing the 6th man of the year. In my mind, right now, Durant stands alone at clearcut MVP with LBJ right there too.


Durant has taken a step back IMO in the "leadership" department. In fact he's never really assumed it the way a true leader does.

As for losing the 6th man of the year..... Martin is giving them the same numbers with higher % shooting... it isn't like they have Morris coming off the bench....
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Pig Miller on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:41 am

therealdeal wrote:Well that's your opinion.

I think there's four players that have pulled away from the pack and you could make an argument for: Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, and Carmelo Anthony. The dark horse number five is Chris Paul.

There's great arguments to be made for all of those guys. It's a fun MVP race.


you can make an argument for any of those 5, definitely, but you could make a better argument for durant than kobe. even if the stats are close, the records are not. that wo0uld be the tiebreaker.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby therealdeal on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:46 am

Pig Miller wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Well that's your opinion.

I think there's four players that have pulled away from the pack and you could make an argument for: Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, and Carmelo Anthony. The dark horse number five is Chris Paul.

There's great arguments to be made for all of those guys. It's a fun MVP race.


you can make an argument for any of those 5, definitely, but you could make a better argument for durant than kobe. even if the stats are close, the records are not. that wo0uld be the tiebreaker.

Again, that's your opinion. The stats are close on average, but the spectacular performances that Bryant has put on this year (namely 10 straight 30 point+ games) in his 17th season logging heavy minutes deserves an incredible amount of respect as well.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby wcsoldier81 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:05 am

JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Right now I'd have to say that CP3 and Melo would be the likely MVP's if the season ended now.... They are on teams that the League desperately wants to be relevant again. Those teams have winning records and most importantly are in large TV markets. The business partners at ESPN and TNT would all fall in line because it would lead to more viewership and more revenues for them as well. People are going to watch the Lakers anyway because of the long established fan base and winning history. It makes no business sense to "promote" the most popular team or its players. In fact overlooking them leads to more interest.....

While neither of those guys is a MVP in my mind that's how it works these days it seems.

Right now the true most valuable player out there is either Kobe or LeBron IMO.


How would Kobe be more of an MVP this season than Durant though?

KD is posting a 50/40/90 so far on the year. That is incredible. I'm not even sure if that has ever been done by a non-guard. He's putting up 28.4 PPG, 8.1 RPG, and 4.1 APG to go with 1.5 STL and 1.4 BLK per game.

Oh, and his team is winning despite losing the 6th man of the year. In my mind, right now, Durant stands alone at clearcut MVP with LBJ right there too.


Dirk did it once and Bird in back to back seasons ... "failed" at 49.6 FG% AND 89.6 FT% the season before
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:27 pm

I doubt LeBron wins it. The Heat will probably coast and LeBron hasn't been playing super amazing, he's just been scarily consistent.

I think it's Durant's to lose.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby King of Clutch on Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:44 pm

The question is: Is kobe bryant mvp "material". Definitely. Still doesn't guarantee he'll win. Definitely playing mvp material basketball. Nba.com's recent mvp standings literally had kobe on the front page of the "mvp ladder link" saying that his teams record was the only thing holding him back from entering the top 3. His personal play is definitely mvp worthy. But again, Durant is balling, so is lebron, and melo. This is a debate as it is every year, there's never truly a clear cut mvp. But like nba.com themselves said, he would be in the discussion if we had a better record.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby King of Clutch on Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:03 pm

As of now I do think that Carmelo should be the frontrunner for mvp. But I doubt he'll get his due respect. The knicks honestly would probably be a sub .500 team without carmelo anthony. He doesn't even have a true all star on his team. And yet they're tied for first in the east. And when you compare what all these other candidates have in terms of who's on their team, Its no comparison. He doesn't have the luxuries that the others have. He deserves to win it just like Derrick Rose did in 2011.
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