LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Nikez on Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:21 pm

The league should just strip the entire media of their voting rights and let general managers and players vote on all awards.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:23 pm

Wow I couldn't disagree more.

He isn't asked to do anything for his team except score, his responsibilities are so limited because he has great players like Chandler and Kidd and now even Felton to take on defending, rebounding, and facilitating. JR Smith has also done a decent job of providing offense. And Melo can't even stay healthy so that's another knock on his MVP candidacy. There's no question Melo is playing better this season but it's not because he evolved his game or anything, he just gets to play in a role he's always been more comfortable at. Although I think his shooting efficiency is still an aberration and it will fall back to earth once his 3 pt % regresses.

And Rose was probably the worst MVP winner of the last 10 years. His team's success was built primarily on Thib's defensive philosophy rather than Rose's dominance. They won the equivalent of 62 games last season with Rose playing in only 39/66 games.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby King of Clutch on Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:31 pm

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:Wow I couldn't disagree more.

He isn't asked to do anything for his team except score, his responsibilities are so limited because he has great players like Chandler and Kidd and now even Felton to take on defending, rebounding, and facilitating. JR Smith has also done a decent job of providing offense. And Melo can't even stay healthy so that's another knock on his MVP candidacy. There's no question Melo is playing better this season but it's not because he evolved his game or anything, he just gets to play in a role he's always been more comfortable at. Although I think his shooting efficiency is still an aberration and it will fall back to earth once his 3 pt % regresses.

And Rose was probably the worst MVP winner of the last 10 years. His team's success was built primarily on Thib's defensive philosophy rather than Rose's dominance. They won the equivalent of 62 games last season with Rose playing in only 39/66 games.

lol more on thibs defensive philosophies? With rose they went all the way to the eastern conference finals. Without him they lost in the first round to the 76ers and only won 1 game.

And the same goes for melo. People in today's day and age get so focused on the stat sheet rather than what people are actually doing to the teams overall play. You can knock carmelo all you want, but without him I don't think New york even makes the playoffs. You don't get that type of drop off with any other "mvp" candidate.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:39 pm

Lol yeah completely leave out that they lost Noah halfway through Game 3 as well. That Bulls team was good without Rose. Plain and simple
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby King of Clutch on Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:50 pm

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:Lol yeah completely leave out that they lost Noah halfway through Game 3 as well. That Bulls team was good without Rose. Plain and simple

lol so noah was going to make a difference for them? They had already lost 2 games with him in. lol Noah is a good player, but he was no game changer for them in that series. Asik was playing good enough in his absence. They couldn't even stop the offensively deficient 76ers, with their great "defensive philosophies". And how can you say they were good without rose without backing it up like I did? You just can't say random things and expect it to be taken seriously. lol
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:31 pm

Uh yeah Noah was kind of going to make a difference considering he's a really good player and was putting up great numbers before he went down. What the do you think :man3: ?

And maybe you chose to ignore it but I kind of already showed you that the Bulls did just fine winning games without Rose over a much larger sample size. You didn't backup anything, saying Rose was the MVP because the Bulls lost in a 6 game series without their 2 best players doesn't do much to validate his worth to the team. The Bulls went 18-9 without Rose in the regular season and you still think he was more valuable to his team than anyone else :man10: I'd actually say him tearing his ACL in the playoffs destroyed the team's psyche and that played a part in them losing as well.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby ragesince1516 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:38 pm

Kobe is having a terrific season MVP caliber no question but Durant and Lebron are having an even better season.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:23 pm

ragesince1516 wrote:Kobe is having a terrific season MVP caliber no question but Durant and Lebron are having an even better season.


yea? And why is that?
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:41 pm

Kobe is putting up great numbers, and considering his age, he's putting up the best numbers of the group. Ole Lebron will get it in an attempt to make him the best ever.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:56 pm

ragesince1516 wrote:Kobe is having a terrific season MVP caliber no question but Durant and Lebron are having an even better season.


Oh dear...
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JGC on Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:16 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
JGC wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Right now I'd have to say that CP3 and Melo would be the likely MVP's if the season ended now.... They are on teams that the League desperately wants to be relevant again. Those teams have winning records and most importantly are in large TV markets. The business partners at ESPN and TNT would all fall in line because it would lead to more viewership and more revenues for them as well. People are going to watch the Lakers anyway because of the long established fan base and winning history. It makes no business sense to "promote" the most popular team or its players. In fact overlooking them leads to more interest.....

While neither of those guys is a MVP in my mind that's how it works these days it seems.

Right now the true most valuable player out there is either Kobe or LeBron IMO.


How would Kobe be more of an MVP this season than Durant though?

KD is posting a 50/40/90 so far on the year. That is incredible. I'm not even sure if that has ever been done by a non-guard. He's putting up 28.4 PPG, 8.1 RPG, and 4.1 APG to go with 1.5 STL and 1.4 BLK per game.

Oh, and his team is winning despite losing the 6th man of the year. In my mind, right now, Durant stands alone at clearcut MVP with LBJ right there too.


Durant has taken a step back IMO in the "leadership" department. In fact he's never really assumed it the way a true leader does.

As for losing the 6th man of the year..... Martin is giving them the same numbers with higher % shooting... it isn't like they have Morris coming off the bench....


Hmmm ... I'm not entirely sure what "leadership" means when you mention it. What would you say Kobe has done leadership wise this season, that Durant hasn't for instance? I mean, I kind of know what you mean, but a lot of what you're talking about has more to do, IMO, with the fact that he's a quieter and less flamboyant kind of guy (compared to Kobe or Lebron).

Martin is having a good year with them, but he's shooting uncharacteristically well specifically from deep. Could be evidence of Durant making his teammates better perhaps. In either case, I'm not sure you're suggesting OKC is better off with Kevin Martin over James Harden, are you?
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby thisbjgz on Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:31 pm

Let's not be homers and pretend Kobe is "supposed to win" MVP..Kobe is having MVP-caliber stats for sure, but because the award is given based on winning, Kobe isn't the MVP. That's just the way it is and it's going to stay that way, basically same argument from 05/06 season when Kobe averaged 35 and he lost to Nash where Nash lead his team to a great record. If the season ended today, CP3 or Durant would win the MVP 100%.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby ramsay13 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:36 pm

Its simple, no.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby purp n gold on Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:03 am

No. 15-15 ain't gettin' you MVP
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby MassDaIllest on Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:21 am

This is the type of thread that ALL other fans of other teams laugh at and 90% of our fans are embarrassed of.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby halekulani on Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:40 am

if the lakers were winning he'd have mvp votes.
right now? def not.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Finwë on Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:00 am

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:I doubt LeBron wins it. The Heat will probably coast and LeBron hasn't been playing super amazing, he's just been scarily consistent.

I think it's Durant's to lose.

Agreed.

My top 5 for MVP (using the usual great production / team success criteria) right now:
1) Durant
2) Anthony
3) LeBron
4) Kobe
5) CP3

Yeah the Clippers have won 17 straight, but CP3 isn't that responsible for that.. He's GREAT, he's their leader and their best player, but their win streak is due to one thing only: DEPTH. They are just an incredibly deep team.

The Knicks have cooled off a bit but I really think Anthony should be considered. He has been incredible all year, leading his team to an amazing start, and really seems to have improved his play in terms of -consistency - defense - playmaking, all things he was criticized for.

Kobe has had an unbelieavable individual season, but you can't overlook us only being .500
His defense has been bad for the most part of the year too

LeBron as usual has been crazy efficient, but the Heat have underperformed in some games and for stretches really look like they are coasting, him included.

Durant has been plain amazing. His numbers are unreal, and the way he obtains them (which separates him a little from LeBron IMO, LeBron usually has a lot more shots in the paint and the floor is much better spaced -plus he plays at the 4 so there is onely one teammate that could get in his way and that's Bosh who is usually outside of the pait) is CRAZY. The guy is taking crossover-3s, making clutch hook shots in the post (top 5 in efficiency in the post I read), dunking over people, shooting from anywhere in the court.. Just amazing that he can do that at such a high level of efficiency.
His D has been even better this year and he's really played within the team's system. I would give it to him
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Finwë on Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:02 am

MassDaIllest wrote:This is the type of thread that ALL other fans of other teams laugh at and 90% of our fans are embarrassed of.

So irrelevant to me
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby lakerzkb8 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:10 am

Best player on best team, therefore no, but hes easily a top 5 player this season so far. All NBA first team is on lock at this rate.

Kevin Durant better win this season. Guys putting up great stats on 50/40/90, better efficiency then Lebron, AND his team has the 2nd best record in the league. Eff the MVP talk for Carmello. Thats a cool narrative by the media this season for New Yorks emergence, but Durants putting up the numbers and the Ws to dethrone Lebron.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Maluco Beleza on Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:12 am

CP3 should get it
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JGC on Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:59 am

Finwë wrote:
JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:I doubt LeBron wins it. The Heat will probably coast and LeBron hasn't been playing super amazing, he's just been scarily consistent.

I think it's Durant's to lose.

Agreed.

My top 5 for MVP (using the usual great production / team success criteria) right now:
1) Durant
2) Anthony
3) LeBron
4) Kobe
5) CP3

Yeah the Clippers have won 17 straight, but CP3 isn't that responsible for that.. He's GREAT, he's their leader and their best player, but their win streak is due to one thing only: DEPTH. They are just an incredibly deep team.

The Knicks have cooled off a bit but I really think Anthony should be considered. He has been incredible all year, leading his team to an amazing start, and really seems to have improved his play in terms of -consistency - defense - playmaking, all things he was criticized for.

Kobe has had an unbelieavable individual season, but you can't overlook us only being .500
His defense has been bad for the most part of the year too

LeBron as usual has been crazy efficient, but the Heat have underperformed in some games and for stretches really look like they are coasting, him included.

Durant has been plain amazing. His numbers are unreal, and the way he obtains them (which separates him a little from LeBron IMO, LeBron usually has a lot more shots in the paint and the floor is much better spaced -plus he plays at the 4 so there is onely one teammate that could get in his way and that's Bosh who is usually outside of the pait) is CRAZY. The guy is taking crossover-3s, making clutch hook shots in the post (top 5 in efficiency in the post I read), dunking over people, shooting from anywhere in the court.. Just amazing that he can do that at such a high level of efficiency.
His D has been even better this year and he's really played within the team's system. I would give it to him


Great points and I personally wouldn't have Anthony high up on the list like that, BUT, that could be my own bias about Anthony's prior seasons coming in to play.

I think the one point you touched on, that no one else has mentioned so I'm glad you did, is Durant's D. He's been really, really good this year whether one is more of an observationalist or a stat guru.

Someone mentioned earlier that the only forwards to have a 50/40/90 season which Durant has at this moment in time are Dirk Nowitzki and Larry Bird. So that should put in to perspective, how dominant of an offensive season Durant is having at the moment as well.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Pig Miller on Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:52 am

therealdeal wrote:
Pig Miller wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Well that's your opinion.

I think there's four players that have pulled away from the pack and you could make an argument for: Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, and Carmelo Anthony. The dark horse number five is Chris Paul.

There's great arguments to be made for all of those guys. It's a fun MVP race.


you can make an argument for any of those 5, definitely, but you could make a better argument for durant than kobe. even if the stats are close, the records are not. that wo0uld be the tiebreaker.

Again, that's your opinion. The stats are close on average, but the spectacular performances that Bryant has put on this year (namely 10 straight 30 point+ games) in his 17th season logging heavy minutes deserves an incredible amount of respect as well.


and that's your opinion.

question for you. if the lakers were 30-5 or 5-30 right now, with everyone's numbers being the same, would that affect your opinion?

the media is most certainly taking record into account based on voting for the last decade. no reason this year will be any different.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JGC on Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:19 am

The irony in all of this, is if Kobe had OKC's record, and Durant had the Lakers' record, the same folks would be using our team record as additional reason for Kobe being MVP.

The reality of the situation is that Kobe and Durant have comparable numbers, but Durant's are slightly better overall.

OKC and the Lakers do not have comparable records. The OKC record (so far) is substantially better than the Lakers.

So the two primary criteria by which an MVP is measured (individual numbers, team record) both favor Durant at the moment. Doesn't mean it can't change however as we still have a lot of season left.

The fact that it is Kobe's 17th season is entirely irrelevant here. That's not to say it's not an amazing feat, because it really is, but the MVP discussion is one tied to absolute production, not production relative to age or service years. This isn't a lifetime achievement award (though if it were, that would change everything). If you take out the players names, ages and just look at the numbers, there really isn't much of an argument in favor for Bryant AT the moment...

Player A Stats: 30.1 PPG (47.8% FG, 37.1% 3pt, 84.9% FT), 5.3 rebounds, 4.9 assists, 3.5 TO, 1.5 STL, 0.3 BLK.
Player A Record: 15-15 (.500) - 10th in Western Conference

Player B Stats: 28.4 PPG (51.6% FG, 43.6% 3pt, 90.3% FT), 8.1 rebounds, 4.1 assists, 3.4 TO, 1.5 STL, 1.5 BLK.
Player B Record: 23-6 (.793) - 2nd in Western Conference

Player A scores 6% more points however, takes 21% more shots.

People are confusing 'respect' with winning the MVP. Anyone who knows basketball should have huge respect for Kobe. What he's done over the years, even, what he's doing now is remarkable. But we shouldn't mistake our fanaticism over #24 to be the prerequisite for an MVP award and then pretend like we're really making a logical and objective argument.

Plenty of time here for Kobe to right the ship in terms of getting this team back on the winning track. Do that, and he'll only increase his consideration for this award but those who are saying his numbers are good enough but his team's record is not are right on the money here, but given that record is a requirement for MVP consideration, that's like saying DeAndre Jordan's team record is there, but not his numbers. (Ok, not quite, but the point is, BOTH elements have to be there or else a player isn't really a viable candidate unless their numbers are so substantial that they stand alone above all others).
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:27 am

JGC wrote:Martin is having a good year with them, but he's shooting uncharacteristically well specifically from deep. Could be evidence of Durant making his teammates better perhaps. In either case, I'm not sure you're suggesting OKC is better off with Kevin Martin over James Harden, are you?


Martin is providing the scoring that Harden did.... he's opening the middle much more than Harden did as well. He isn't the initiator or finisher Harden is but the idea that he's significantly inferior is not true IMO.

That team has a leadership problem.... always has.
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Re: LQOTD: Is Kobe MVP Material?

Postby JGC on Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:41 am

Rooscooter wrote:
JGC wrote:Martin is having a good year with them, but he's shooting uncharacteristically well specifically from deep. Could be evidence of Durant making his teammates better perhaps. In either case, I'm not sure you're suggesting OKC is better off with Kevin Martin over James Harden, are you?


Martin is providing the scoring that Harden did.... he's opening the middle much more than Harden did as well. He isn't the initiator or finisher Harden is but the idea that he's significantly inferior is not true IMO.

That team has a leadership problem.... always has.


Ok, I'm not sure why but you didn't answer the questions.

Are you saying OKC is better off with Kevin Martin over James Harden? My earlier point was that KD was putting up these gaudy numbers despite losing the 6th man of the year. Kevin Martin is a nice consolation prize, but in my opinion, OKC is a better team with James Harden than Kevin Martin. Do you agree?

Also, you keep using the nebulous term leadership but I had asked what you specifically mean by that. What has Kobe done, this season for example, that Durant hasn't in terms of providing leadership to the team? (For example, making ones teammates better might be an example, and I think KD has done that, and Kobe hasn't yet this year).
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