Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby kray28 on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:23 pm

You cannot learn this offense overnight. So there needs to be a mix and a balance between what's in the comfort zone versus what is not.

The other major concern I have is the complete lack of faith in Brown's ability to lead this team.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby mastersworddude on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:25 pm

Can we stop bringing up Adelman? It depresses me..
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby KBJelleyBean24 on Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:30 pm

Johnnyboy wrote:bring back the triangle for Gods sake

If players can't execute the Princeton offense, they defiantly won't be able to execute the triangle which is way more complicated. It's a read and react type of offense, just like the triangle and players and over-thinking it. We should give the Princeton more of a chance before we scrap it. It's been difficult for players to adjust since MB has been playing with the rotations, starters have been injured (Kobe out 2 games Dwight out 6, Hill out 5, heck even Pau missed a game) and hopefully once the guys know their place and how to react, we will begin to see better ball movement and player movement.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Lakerjones on Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:44 pm

borri wrote:God I hate to beat a dead horse but damn it....why didn't we hire Adelman!!! :bang:


It's too bad. But it's definitely crying over spilled milk right now.

The big issue is what do we do going forward? I don't know what's going to happen, but if Brown continues to look foolish and somehow we end up with a losing record or even just hover for a while at .500, I think he'll get the axe.

Regarding a couple posts: I think Rock has it a bit backwards again. I don't think the starters need the Princeton offense as much as the bench needs it. If you're going to play the Princeton the main dude running it should be whoever backs up Nash for 16-18 minutes a game.

The bench needs some kind of a system. They aren't going to be effective running Mike Brown's iso system. They don't have the personnel to support it. The second unit is the one desperate for ball movement and order. But what we've seen from them has been nothing but chaos.

Also Rock, Mike Brown is not the guy who pushed for the Princeton. In fact, I don't think he's a big proponent of it and I know for a fact he doesn't know how to run it. He's said so. Eddie Jordan was a front office hire to fix the lack of ball movement we saw last year. The issue is that right after that hire, we landed Steve Nash and Dwight Howard. You just got a Point Guard who can run the offense (or lack thereof) and a mobile big to work with him that relies mostly on pick and roll.

You guys have to stop with this notion that Nash is going to be worn out by running the offense. That is what he does and that's what he's done for 18 years at the highest level. Now instead of guys like Gortat and Dudley he has HOF players alongside him like Dwight Howard, Kobe and Pau Gasol. His weapons are ridiculous. All he has to do is do what he does. Not just pick and roll. He needs to have the ball in his hands to be effective. But he can also give up some of those duties to Kobe as well. Kobe can be the distributor as well. Between them they know more about running offenses than any of the guys on the coaching staff with the possible exception of Bernie Bickerstaff. But Bernie seems to be pretty hands off thus far.

The THING that is going to wear Steve Nash out is having to play too many minutes because we don't have a decent backup point guard to spell him. It's not whether we are running a motion offense or running pick and roll in the half court set, but how many minutes he is going to have to go out there. Right now we don't have a good backup settled for at that position and it's really dangerous. Nash is the oldest guy on the team. But we don't have anyone behind him that is trustworthy.

In the meantime, it's not like the Princeton is a bad offense. I just don't see the need to recreate the wheel with our starters. Let Nash be Nash most of the time. Run some Princeton to shake it up. Let Kobe bring up the ball once in a while and distribute for a change of pace.

What I want to see is some consistency from the coaching staff. I've seen mostly disorganized ball out there. Oh yeah, and for the record, while pick and roll is simpler than a motion offense, it needs to be worked on as well. What I didn't like to see was the starters completely forgoing the pick and roll (and any picks at all even in the backcourt to free up Nash) in favor of their "hybrid system" which just looked bad. Contrary to what some are saying, you need to practice pick and roll if it's going to be part of your arsenal - just as much as you need to practice the Princeton sets. If you are going to spend time on the Princeton but also run P and R, then you better put time into it,too.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby The Rock on Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:11 pm

LJ the reason I think the bench shouldnt run it is because they have more shooters in that unit. I look at them similar to the 2007/2008 team the bench came in with high energy and they just pretty much ran every chance they had (Even when Ariza was out).

A lineup of Glock/Meeks/Ebanks/Jamison and Hill or Pau can be a very effective 2nd unit. There are no passive players on this unit and none of them are gonna turn down an open jumpshot. Glock is good enough to look for his own offense, he doesn't turn the ball over and neither does he dribble the hell out of the ball. Hes productive when given minutes, period. Always been. A simple Pick and Pop with him and Jamison or him and Gasol can get the defense rotating and they can find shooter like Meeks or a cutter like Ebanks on the run. Its simple basketball and just letting the players play to their strength just like Phil allowed the 2008 team to.

The other reason I said we shouldn't impose the Princeton on these guys is because of confidence issues, I dont want Meeks and Jamison 2nd guessing, I want them to be in rhythm when the starters come back in and when they play alongside them. These guys are shot makers and spoor flacers.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby karacha on Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:38 pm

My .02: I don't have concerns about Princeton sets. I have concerns about coach Brown. If our players can learn the offense by mid-season and execute it well, that's a great thing. I remember Sacramento running these sets and they were an amazing team (regardless of how much we did not like them). They were quick and efficient. I think most of these sets take between 8 and 18 seconds to execute, with the majority of shot openings presenting themselves around 8-10 seconds left on the shot clock. Here are few of them, randomly selected (time left on the clock: 8, 9, 7):





So, if our guys can run this flawlessly and mix it up with Nash/Pau/Dwight pick and roll -- that's fantastic. I have 0 concerns about the offense itself. We have the personnel to do it. Nash can easily do what Bibby did for the Kings. Pau can pass like Divac and shoot in a similar manner to Webber, Kobe is extremely efficient from mid-range when he gets an open shot and so is Nash, obviously. Metta can cut and score in the post, and he's an underrated passer actually. When the opportunity presents itself to play P&R with Dwight, you take it, because he's pretty much automatic in those situations. Other players who can look good in this type of offense are Meeks, Jamison and Hill.

However, I am concerned about the time required to learn all this and of course... Brown's rotations. Ugh.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby The Rock on Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:46 pm

^ thats exactly what Im talking about. Brown has the right idea in mind, but hes impatient, hes not a good teacher of a new concept, he doesn't think quick on his feet, he doesnt know how to make adjustments, he doesnt know how to counter other teams adjustments, he thinks most of the bench players are multifaceted and interchangeable. Thats just wrong.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Lakerjones on Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:54 pm

^^ Also he doesn't have a clue about running the Princeton offense, so he shouldn't be the guy teaching it, or for that matter trying to modify it or "hybridize" it as he is attempting to do. Eddie Jordan is the expert at it and if he were head coach I'd be more comfortable about him running it as I think he would know what to do. The problem I see is there's a confusion with the players about what they are supposed to be doing and I think some of this comes from having too many cooks in the kitchen right now. Brown doesn't have any good ideas on offense. So he should not be involved there. But he is getting involved. He's making a mess of things. So I agree with you both in that regard.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Snakell Beast on Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:50 pm

The main issue with our team's offense is that we don't stick to ONE STYLE OR PHILOSOPHY. Mike Brown has a "one from column a, two from column b" approach to offense, and to coaching in general, so our problems...regardless of the systems being interchanged, are going to be the same this season as last.

Mike Brown won't stick with just one offensive system, so the players are way more confused trying to figure out which type of sets we are going to run against which type of defensive adjustments. It's hard to learn an offense on the fly when there are principles and sets from a half dozen other offensive systems and philosophies also being implemented, as well as 3 current or former head coaches on the staff trying to coordinate everything.

We need to pick ONE offense, and learn JUST THAT, until the players get adjusted to it...Just like we need to pick a bench rotation and then stick with that...THEN we can add new wrinkles from other styles and philosophies...but we shouldn't be trying to do it NOW while we don't even have the basics down yet.

If MB doesn't start establishing a CONSISTENT ROUTINE with the offense and substitutions/minutes, we will be doomed to this pointing, thinking and turnover prone disaster that we have feebly labeled an "offense".

On a side note, It seems that this touch and go philosophy of Brown's also deeply affects his ROTATIONS as well. Players never get comfortable because their roles and rotations and minutes are always changing. No one ever feels confident or familiar with their role, so no one ever gets into a good rhythm. This was the primary reason so many of the veterans were complaining at the beginning of last season...these same problems were cropping up.

Mike Brown did eventually sort of solidify his rotations as the season progressed, but then we made big trades at the deadline and it was too short of a time for someone like MB to adjust. This stodgy, linear and unadaptive trait, combined with his propensity to favor the familiar over the unknown, especially with regards to rookies or new team members, makes for a very dodgy and inconsistent style of play.

PJ had an issue with rookies and new players too, but he often knew when to change the formula and insert a fresh face into a stagnating situation, Mike Brown seems either too reticent or too stubborn to know if/when to do that...neither of which will bode well for the Lakers going forward.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby wcsoldier81 on Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:16 pm

Roland Lazenby‏@lazenby

It appears to be problematic that the Lakers are trying to patchwork an offensive system. Hope that's not the case. But it feels that way

Roland Lazenby‏@lazenby

Don't care much about the winless preseason. It's more the feel/sense of a team trying to find an offensive philosophy/system. Not good.

Roland Lazenby‏@lazenby

After all these years of Phil having the ultimate offensive philosophy/system, this seems a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants approach.

Roland Lazenby‏@lazenby

Not a question of MIke Brown not knowing basketball. He does. It's a question of not having a philosophy, not being organized offensively

Roland Lazenby‏@lazenby

It's going to be interesting to see how the Lakers' offense evolves. Most coaches don't have systems, just sets. So it could be fine

Roland Lazenby‏@lazenby

Some of it's the sense of confidence the players get from the coaching staff. Problem is, with a mixed system, there could be mixed signals


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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Lakerjones on Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:23 am

Snakell Beast wrote:The main issue with our team's offense is that we don't stick to ONE STYLE OR PHILOSOPHY. Mike Brown has a "one from column a, two from column b" approach to offense, and to coaching in general, so our problems...regardless of the systems being interchanged, are going to be the same this season as last.

Mike Brown won't stick with just one offensive system, so the players are way more confused trying to figure out which type of sets we are going to run against which type of defensive adjustments. It's hard to learn an offense on the fly when there are principles and sets from a half dozen other offensive systems and philosophies also being implemented, as well as 3 current or former head coaches on the staff trying to coordinate everything.

We need to pick ONE offense, and learn JUST THAT, until the players get adjusted to it...Just like we need to pick a bench rotation and then stick with that...THEN we can add new wrinkles from other styles and philosophies...but we shouldn't be trying to do it NOW while we don't even have the basics down yet.

If MB doesn't start establishing a CONSISTENT ROUTINE with the offense and substitutions/minutes, we will be doomed to this pointing, thinking and turnover prone disaster that we have feebly labeled an "offense".

On a side note, It seems that this touch and go philosophy of Brown's also deeply affects his ROTATIONS as well. Players never get comfortable because their roles and rotations and minutes are always changing. No one ever feels confident or familiar with their role, so no one ever gets into a good rhythm. This was the primary reason so many of the veterans were complaining at the beginning of last season...these same problems were cropping up.

Mike Brown did eventually sort of solidify his rotations as the season progressed, but then we made big trades at the deadline and it was too short of a time for someone like MB to adjust. This stodgy, linear and unadaptive trait, combined with his propensity to favor the familiar over the unknown, especially with regards to rookies or new team members, makes for a very dodgy and inconsistent style of play.

PJ had an issue with rookies and new players too, but he often knew when to change the formula and insert a fresh face into a stagnating situation, Mike Brown seems either too reticent or too stubborn to know if/when to do that...neither of which will bode well for the Lakers going forward.


^^ Great breakdown Snakell Beast. Lazenby's article does seem to confirm what we are seeing - confusion on the court due to confusion in the coaching department (mainly Brown).
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:35 am

I don't like running a mixed bag of offensive schemes. I believe that causes total confusion. Mike has stated that Steve has the option of running Pick & Roll every time the court; however, just earlier in a preseason game he said he wanted the team to run a, "certain action."

Well, that can create disharmony because the players out there are thinking too much about running certain sets instead of playing their games including Nash. He's suppose to be our floor general but when you handcuff what he does it begs the question, why did you even trade for him if you're going to relegate him to a spot-up shooter. Sure, he's a great shooter, but I'd rather have the best of both worlds with Steve directing & running the offense creating easy opportunities for everybody rather then just have him stand outside the three point line waiting for the ball.

I'll give them until the All-Star break to figure this out; if I continue to see the same problems 41-42 games in, then I think it's time to make a coaching change...
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby revgen on Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:09 am

We've always ran a mixed bag of offensive schemes under Phil. Sometimes we'd run the triangle. Sometimes we did P&R with Pau and Kobe. Sometimes we just had ISO's with Bynum, Kobe, or Pau. We didn't just have one way of putting points on the board. It keeps teams guessing as to what we'd do next. Makes us a less predictable team.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Lakerjones on Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:54 am

revgen wrote:We've always ran a mixed bag of offensive schemes under Phil. Sometimes we'd run the triangle. Sometimes we did P&R with Pau and Kobe. Sometimes we just had ISO's with Bynum, Kobe, or Pau. We didn't just have one way of putting points on the board. It keeps teams guessing as to what we'd do next. Makes us a less predictable team.


^^ This is a good point by Revgen, but it also shows exactly where the problems lie right now.

With Phil Jackson there was no confusion about the offense. The back drop was always going to be Triangle. Any riffing off it or derivation was just that - a derivation from the main system, the Triangle.

Mike Brown's offense is, well, ISO garbage. Eddie Jordan was brought in to correct the awful basketball we had to watch last season. In theory, the Princeton is another Triangle-like, read and react system that has worked well under guys like Adelman, who ran an offshoot of it, and Eddie Jordan who came up under Adelman.

I don't think the Princeton itself is to blame here.

The biggest problems we are seeing is that the Front Office, or really Jim Buss, tried to bandaid fix his coaching hire, Brown, by bringing in someone who can run his own offense in Eddie Jordan.

Then we got personnel upgrades that sort of kill the necessity for using primarily a motion offense. Doesn't mean they can't still learn it and run it. But it doesn't play to the strengths of the new personnel, i.e. Nash and Howard.

Nonetheless Nash COULD run Princeton sets. There's no doubt about it.

The problem is the logjam at the coaching position. The FO bringing in Eddie Jordan is basically a move that says, "Brown, your offense sucks," which it does. But now you are effectively undermining Brown's position as head coach. His reaction has been - "Ok, we'll mostly use my old stuff I was running last year, plus some Princeton. I'll call it a 'hybrid.'"

What he should be doing is relinquishing CONTROL of the offense to a better offensive mind and coach in Eddie Jordan.

However, what he's doing is messing everything up and creating disorganization. He doesn't know enough about the Princeton offense to be changing it or running it at all.

If he wants to keep his job he should let go and just let Jordan run the offense - with variations that work for our current personnel. I trust Eddie Jordan to do just that. But Brown doesn't so far. I think part of that is his insecurity as a coach.

Remember, Jordan was a FO hire, not Mike Brown's hire. Brown knows good and well that Jordan might be his replacement if he falters. There's a dynamic there that is competitive rather than on the same page.

Right now you've got a schizophrenic offense where the players don't know what to do, and whose instruction to follow.

Given the chaos I've seen after Mike Brown has had his much vaunted training camp and preseason now (the excuse he had for still being here this year) - I would cut my losses and just turn it over the reigns to Jordan. He was brought in for a reason, and Mike Brown is just making a mess out of everything. 0-8 preseason is atrocious. But it's more than just the losses - it's the way they were losing, and they way they look utterly confused and unorganized.

If I were Jim I'd just go all the way and commit to Jordan. Either that or bring in Jerry Sloan who I think could do a better job than either one.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby LTLakerFan on Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:08 am

Lakerjones wrote:Our offense has looked atrocious for this preseason except for a few occasions of Princeton sets, and of course mostly it has looked good when Nash and company are left to their own devices.

Lot of work to do here. What concerns me is that Mike Brown is doing a lot of the same crap that I saw from him last year - stupid lineups, bad substitutions, no good idea of what will work, bad ideas on the offensive end, stubbornness about players . . .

I definitely have been one of the major harpers on running the Princeton when Nash is in. They need to do as little of that as they can get away with, especially because everyone just seems confused when it happens. But they did bring in Eddie Jordan and they can't just scrap the whole idea. The bench should be running Jordan's offense at the very least. The problem I'm seeing is that it all looks out of whack. I blame Brown because he's still the head coach and the guy calling the shots. I'd love to see him fired. I'd feel a lot more comfortable with Jordan and Bickerstaff running things. Brown is lousy.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Tobias Funke on Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:37 am

Seems like most dont have a problem with the offense itself, especially when you consider that its been said that Nash will be allowed to do his thing atleast a decent amount of the time. The problem people seem to have is with our coaching staff (and Im guessing the time it will take for the team to get the offense down).

Dont think I can say anything about our coach that hasn't been said a million times, and obviously we dont know how long it will take for them to get a grip on the Princeton. I do think the team will be a championship level team if/when they get the Princeton down however, because in addition to that, we'll be running the pick and roll and iso as well, and really, most teams will just be overwhelmed defensively.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:48 am

revgen wrote:We've always ran a mixed bag of offensive schemes under Phil. Sometimes we'd run the triangle. Sometimes we did P&R with Pau and Kobe. Sometimes we just had ISO's with Bynum, Kobe, or Pau. We didn't just have one way of putting points on the board. It keeps teams guessing as to what we'd do next. Makes us a less predictable team.


Point taken, and I'm fine with that when you don't have a floor general such as Nash; but we do now. I'm not advocating running Pick & Roll exclusively with Nash. However, I'm also of the opinion that he needs to have the ball in his hands more then anybody else including Kobe because he's the best facilitator we have on our roster.

I don't mind running the Princeton for say 35-40% of the time and letting Nash do what he's good at. I understand that learning the offense is going to be a process; so, I will see how it plays out, but I don't trust Brown at all. Phil is a different case. He knew his players and their strengths and he let them flourish under their roles. Brown doesn't have that ability.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby kray28 on Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:23 pm

The last point by Lazenby is gold: Most coaches don't have a "system". Phil with the Tri and Adelman with the Princeton are actually. Most coaches run "sets". We don't need a system to win...

If there is a system or philosophy that needs to be established, you can't just install it overnight, and if you try to force feed into place, you will lose, lose, and lose some more.

We need to run the sets that makes Nash comfortable...simple stuff, let Nash be the floor general. Maybe 30% of the time, run some Princeton stuff, especially with the second unit which might stand to benefit more from it.

The starters...they should be fine playing off each other. They should not be running the Princeton, as it will work negate matchup advantages we'll enjoy at multiple positions.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby jimbo327 on Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:45 am

The Rock wrote:^ thats exactly what Im talking about. Brown has the right idea in mind, but hes impatient, hes not a good teacher of a new concept, he doesn't think quick on his feet, he doesnt know how to make adjustments, he doesnt know how to counter other teams adjustments, he thinks most of the bench players are multifaceted and interchangeable. Thats just wrong.


You forgot to include that he doesn't even know the new concept, much less teach it.

And the players are probably getting mixed messages now from Brown, causing more confusion. What is it? Are we going to run the Princeton offense? Or are we going to have Nash to run his own offense (pick and roll, fast break)? Brown keeps contradicting himself.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Jordan-esque on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:16 pm

The whole TNT crew are all concerned as well.

Btw it's not the Princeton, it's the "Hybrid Princeton".
Last edited by Jordan-esque on Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Vito Andolini on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:17 pm

fire mike brown.

DIDN'T RUN ONE SET PLAY.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby gill on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:20 pm

Well, one guy in the WMC thread said it best: Best pick-n-roll PG in the game and he gets transformed into Derek Fisher.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby GoldenChocobo on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:21 pm

Buckle up guys, Brown will grind this offense out the whole season.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Doc Brown on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:23 pm

Well at lease Pau/D12 got to handle the ball at the top of the key and Nash got to stand the corner. That's progress. :jam2:
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Punk-101 on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:24 pm

Doc Brown wrote:Well at lease Pau/D12 got to handle the ball at the top of the key and Nash got to stand the corner. That's progress. :jam2:

And Metta gets to be a ball-dominant guard!
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