Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby ZenMaster4President on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:43 pm

Dumbarse of a coach.

Idiotic substitutions, lineups and faces.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby bruddahmanmatt on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:00 pm

FWIW, I like the decision to install an offense for us to have something other than straight P&R and Iso to go to during crunch time. It will take time for things to come together and I agree that we need to run the Princeton again and again until it becomes second nature. Once the offense is in place I say back off and let Nash figure out when to follow the game plan and when to freelance because as much as I think having the Princeton in place will be beneficial as the season goes on, the combo of Nash/Dwight, Kobe/Pau, Pau/Dwight etc... is screaming for some heavy P&R action. I think we'll see the team fall back and run more P&R as the season goes on, but I truly believe we need to have a system behind that (especially for the bench) so that we aren't relying on high screens and isos only.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby The Rock on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:12 pm

Not good

https://twitter.com/SerenaWinters/status/263523342764617728

Nash talking about what to expect tomorrow "I don't know if the offense will be a shining example of the Princeton."
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby noobiew on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:12 pm

I agreed with Chuck, Shaq and Kenny, our offense just doesn't fit the current personnel and diminishes the talents of Nash and Dwight, they are been misused and not being properly utilize by us
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby GoldenKnight on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:14 pm

HOW TO RUN THE PRINCETON OFFENSE

STEP 1: Nash dribbles to half-court and dishes the ball

STEP 2: Doesn't touch the ball for the rest of the possession
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Vasashi17 on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:15 pm

bruddahmanmatt wrote:FWIW, I like the decision to install an offense for us to have something other than straight P&R and Iso to go to during crunch time. It will take time for things to come together and I agree that we need to run the Princeton again and again until it becomes second nature. Once the offense is in place I say back off and let Nash figure out when to follow the game plan and when to freelance because as much as I think having the Princeton in place will be beneficial as the season goes on, the combo of Nash/Dwight, Kobe/Pau, Pau/Dwight etc... is screaming for some heavy P&R action. I think we'll see the team fall back and run more P&R as the season goes on, but I truly believe we need to have a system behind that (especially for the bench) so that we aren't relying on high screens and isos only.


I agree with this. You definitely need a system cause the triangle is unfortunately gone and iso ball won't cut it in the postseason.

This is the funny thing. When Phil was gone, Jimmy completed stripped the organization from anything related to the triangle. He didn't even let Shaw interview. During the years of Phil, you kept hearing Jimmy want the Showtime days back and us going after CP3 speaks volumes of that.

Then we go after Nash and finally get a playmaking PG. Instead of letting him do his thing, we handcuff him into a weak man's triangle. Nash needs to do his thing during the games while we develop the Princeton in practice. Let it become second nature to us so that the ball keeps moving and we don't look like a JV squad out there and then...and only then, do you break it out in a game.

Jimmy wanted the days of Showtime back...he's got the roster to do that....you got a yes man as your coach. Jimmy needs to command the man he hired to let Nash loose and let the Princeton develop in Toyota Center..not Staple Center. When its ready, bust it out on the NBA.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Snakell Beast on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:24 pm

Man, the offense looked "turrible" :bang: Like Barkley said, "You got Steve Nash, Dwight Howard, Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol and you score 45 points in a half, that's stupid!"
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Lakerjones on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:29 pm

Thus far, this season's been a complete embarrassment. At some point you have to stop the bleeding. At some point, too, you have to hold the head coach accountable.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:31 pm

What a joke the offense was. The team looked slow, confused, and outright horrible. Goodness...
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby The Rock on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:31 pm



TNT going in on Mike Brown
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Jordan-esque on Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:59 pm

The Rock wrote:

TNT going in on Mike Brown


Highlights:

Charles Barkley:

"I've said it before, I want my accountant from Princeton, but I don't want my offense from Princeton. There's a man taking the ball out of Steve Nash's hand. And Dwight Howard as you see, this really hurts him, if he has to set up, they're going to foul him! You don't want Dwight Howard in the half court set, because teams are just going to foul him coz he ain't a good free throw shooter."

"Mike Brown should nix the Princeton and let Steve Nash push the ball. The best thing that Steve Nash does is push the ball. Why would you not let Steve Nash push the ball?"


Kenny Jet Smith:

"They were 0-8 in the preseason. I was like 'well they're all veterans just trying to get in shape'. But no! That style of play (the Princeton) will keep every team in the game with them. It will come down to Kobe, Nash, or Gasol to make a big shot in the end of the game, and they will squeeze out. But there are certain teams they should beat by 19 or 20 points, but they will never beat them by 19 or 20 points, they will always be in close games when you're shooting the basketball with 8 seconds left in the shot clock, not 12-14."

"The Princeton, again, have never won an NCAA title."
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Snakell Beast on Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:05 am

Maybe we should move Nash to the bench, and start DJO & Ebanks with Gasol/Kobe/Dwight. That way, we can have a bench of Nash/Meeks/Jamison/MWP/Hill, and we guarantee that Nash and MWP will be fresh come post season.

We also cover the young, inexperienced DJO and Ebanks with our 3 best players...some changes are definitely in order, we looked over matched tonight against an undermanned team who, even with their best two players back is probably a bottom bracket non-contender.

More than anything, though, the Princeton needs to die a quick death. BTW, FWIW, TNT reported that the Princeton WAS MIKE BROWN'S IDEA LAST APRIL/MAY, so no more people thinking that Eddie Jordan is a front office hire to motivate Brown and potentially replace him.

Edit - Also, one thing I noticed during the game is that we always seems like we are getting outcoached by a mile. I haven't really noticed it before tonight, but it seemed Rick Carlisle was always a step or two ahead of Mike Brown in rotations, match-ups and play calls. I don't know if we should fire a coach this early in the season, but I would support that move if the Lakers front office made the move right now.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby KB24 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:50 am

I was against the Princton the second it was mentioned.

We are turning Nash into Gary Payton....
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby thisbjgz on Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:11 am

Snakell Beast wrote:Maybe we should move Nash to the bench, and start DJO & Ebanks with Gasol/Kobe/Dwight. That way, we can have a bench of Nash/Meeks/Jamison/MWP/Hill, and we guarantee that Nash and MWP will be fresh come post season.

We also cover the young, inexperienced DJO and Ebanks with our 3 best players...some changes are definitely in order, we looked over matched tonight against an undermanned team who, even with their best two players back is probably a bottom bracket non-contender.

More than anything, though, the Princeton needs to die a quick death. BTW, FWIW, TNT reported that the Princeton WAS MIKE BROWN'S IDEA LAST APRIL/MAY, so no more people thinking that Eddie Jordan is a front office hire to motivate Brown and potentially replace him.

Edit - Also, one thing I noticed during the game is that we always seems like we are getting outcoached by a mile. I haven't really noticed it before tonight, but it seemed Rick Carlisle was always a step or two ahead of Mike Brown in rotations, match-ups and play calls. I don't know if we should fire a coach this early in the season, but I would support that move if the Lakers front office made the move right now.


No way are we even thinking about bringing Nash to the bench, just no.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby LUUUKE on Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:18 am

Mike Brown is too entrenched in the Laker org to get fired..have you seen him in BSL? he's like mitch's best buddy hangin around with him in the el segundo practice facility
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby purp n gold on Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:32 am

The Lakers: We put Gary Payton in the triangle, and Steve Nash in the princeton.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Snakell Beast on Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:33 am

thisbjgz wrote:No way are we even thinking about bringing Nash to the bench, just no.


IF we are going to stick with the offense we are running right now, then Nash's role should change to a Jason Terry type where he comes in and gets 8-12 open looks from 3, that way DJO can lock down the opposing 1's, using all 6 fouls every game. At least then our PG defense would be better.

I would rather continue to start Nash, shelve the Princeton, and go with the Flex offense that Jerry Sloan runs, which is predicated on pick and roll action from the PG position, but since we seem committed to Mike Brown and the Princeton experiment (I say mutation) then we will need players who play defense first and let the offense "take care of itself"

Just sayin...

Ironically enough, Gary Payton would be much more suited to Nash's current role, given that GP was one of the best on ball defenders at PG in league history. Mike Brown needs an Eric Snow, Gary Payton, Kirk Heinrich type of hard nosed, defensive PG. Steve Nash doesn't fit with the role Mike likes for his point guards.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby wcsoldier81 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:00 am

This tweet sums it up perfectly

JarrodGillis‏@JarrodsNBA

It is interesting. Last year you shoulda ran some offense...this year you added Steve Nash and Dwight Howard. Don't overthink it.




This offense won't work even with time "to gel" and will hold this team back

Nonsenses of this system :

- Keeping the ball out of Nash hands
- Pau receiving the ball beyond the three 3pt line
- D12 getting the ball at the top of the key
- MWP making decisions
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby nameant on Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:58 am

The sooner Mike Brown is out, the better. You can defend him if you want but the guy just isn't a good coach. He has no idea what he's doing.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Finwë on Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:16 am

I posted this on the Brown thread but I think it belongs here since it's about the offense:

In the post game interview they asked Brown about Nash on offense and he said: "Steve has the ability to do Steve. Every time down the floor, in the early offense, he has the ability to play pick and roll with Dwight. He can do that whenever he wants or he can get us into offense, get us into a two guard front, or he can play pick and roll and then based on where he cuts or passes the ball it gets us in our offense too. But we're not quite there yet."
Said like that it doesn't sound so bad, at least (to the view of the public) he's giving Nash the choice to run what he wants. I'm guessing since our guys are still learning the system Nash and the crew are putting more time and effort into it and running more of it so they can pick it up faster. Hopefully, once they start getting there, he'll feel less pressured to run those sets and feels freer to balance them out with basic P&R action, his area of expertise.
Like bruddahmanmatt said, it's not a bad idea that we're implementing a system to fall back on so we (and our bench especially) don't have to rely too much on P&R and ISOs. What I'm complaining about is that there hasn't been much perceivable progress. Hopefully that changes, and once it does I think the offense won't be a concern.
In the first half I think we saw some glimpses of what the offense can provide. We had a very high % of assisted FGs and despite it all we ended up with a nice assist total. We shot a great FG% too, finding good shots for everyone.
As players get more and more comfortable with the system, turnovers should decrease a bit more, the pace should pick up a bit (we were too slow to get into sets in many occations) and we'll see more mixing of various things (more P&R and P&P, some post action, some triangle-like sets, some ISOs against mismatches, etc.), since the pressure to pick up the system quickly will decrease and players won't need to run sets as much in efforts to get there.

This is all a very optimistic outlook, it obviously could end up not working at all, in which case Brown should be fired and a new coach with a simpler and better personnel-fitted system should be hired to try and salvage the season. Hopefully that's not the case (as much as I want Brown gone, him being fired is of course predicated on us losing a big amount of games, which no one wants to see)
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby Finwë on Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:23 am

Also, I think it was pretty clear that last night's loss was MUCH more about defense than O. Sure, the offense needs a lot of work, but our defense straight up SUCKED. I'd like to see some system talk about that end of the floor; we can't afford to lose focus on it just because we're installing a new offensive system. Gotta be able to work on both, or we'll keep losing.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby XXIV on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:03 am

Finwë wrote:Also, I think it was pretty clear that last night's loss was MUCH more about defense than O. Sure, the offense needs a lot of work, but our defense straight up SUCKED. I'd like to see some system talk about that end of the floor; we can't afford to lose focus on it just because we're installing a new offensive system. Gotta be able to work on both, or we'll keep losing.


Def, reb, and FTs lost us the game. However, having we should have scored more than 91 pts when we have Kobe, Pau, Dwight, and Nash on the same team.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby gill on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:11 am

Definitely the defense sucked, especially with Dwight still a step too slow and Collison breaking Steve Nash's ankles, any chance he got and Pau getting manhandled. If Brown is still coaching... just focus on the damn defense and let Nash run the floor on the other side.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby kray28 on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:13 am

Lakerjones wrote:Thus far, this season's been a complete embarrassment. At some point you have to stop the bleeding. At some point, too, you have to hold the head coach accountable.


At some point, you need to decide that you play to win the game.

The thing that irritates me the most about Mike Brown is his "it'll take time" approach. Newsflash Potato, there isn't a lot of time. This is a closing window, and Kobe's days are numbered.

Phil had the cachet for stuff like this....where he'd almost purposely let them lose games. Mike is not Phil. Mike Brown has no leg to stand on, he needs to play the games to win, and teach the offense in practice. The games are not your practice time, you do what you have to to win the game.
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Re: Major Concerns about the Princeton Offense

Postby XXIV on Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:18 am

gill wrote:Definitely the defense sucked, especially with Dwight still a step too slow and Collison breaking Steve Nash's ankles, any chance he got and Pau getting manhandled. If Brown is still coaching... just focus on the damn defense and let Nash run the floor on the other side.


This is the main reason why I'm unhappy with Mike Brown. We all know he sucks offensively, but he built his rep as a defensive genius. Now, not only did we do horrible offensively, but defensively as well. So then what's the point of even having him as a coach?
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