Mike D'Antoni Discussion: RESIGNS AS LAKERS COACH (184)

Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby tigerjeterkobe on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:44 am

Yes, kobe shooting too much - which means too much ISO and him not passing to the open corners and to Dwight when he has a seal and Kobe is missing - hurts the defense. The guys get frustrated, lack energy, and Kobe's misses lead to transition buckets or cross matches on defense because Kobe shot against a double team.


Kobe is not an effective closer. Not off the dribble and when he has already taken 25 plus shots. Goes back to Dallas series - up by 18 and Kobe iso ball, leads to transition by other team, energy and confidence by other team, and momentum shift. Takes guys out of rhythm. His ball hogging effects everything. Period.

Somebody show the last 15 games when the Lakers lost leads in the 4th. Why Brown and MDA stop the ball with Kobe is beyond me. And Kobe is being toy'd with by other coaches. Pop did it with Green - winning shot by Kobe's man. Afflalo lit him up. And last night. He is roaming on defense, trying to conserve injury for scoring. He needs to be called out for his lapses.

With Nash out - kobe needs to facilitate, esp with Gasol out. Not shoot more. He wanted his milestone last night and cost his team. How can all these experienced coaches keep letting this happen??

Kobe is the problem, and MDA needs to fix it. Ball stopping like it did with Melo. The lakers are easy to defend because of kobe ISOs. I am a Kobe fan and can't stand this anymore.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby trodgers on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:49 am

TIME wrote:
JGC wrote:^ What maybe I haven't made clear, is that I believe that Kobe hero ball, is a detriment to most, if not all of the "keys to the loss". Yes, even defense. I mean when he goes nutso like that, I don't know how people can't see the loss of focus on the other players. The standing around. The flat-footedness on defense.

I mean looking strictly at a box score, I can see why someone would think it is crazy to put most (not all, ok?) but most of the responsibility on 24's shoulders but like, I don't know, I think it's so clear how you can almost see the energy being zapped out of the players after he goes 3-4 possessions in hero mode.


Strange post. Kobe shooting too much causes the team to not play D = :man3: :man10: :man3:

So you think the entire team is pulling a Shaq, and refusing to guard the yard because the dogs aren't getting fed? You realize that when Shaq did that he was being selfish, petulant and unprofessional, right? Yet, you don't criticize the entire team of professionals getting paid millions of $$$ to play defense whether Kobe takes every single shot or shares the ball. Instead you blame Kobe when the team doesn't defend. Don't bother to offer another convoluted explanation. I get it. In your world it is always Kobe's fault.

JGC is happy to make this argument when it's about Kobe's consumption killing the team D and effort; he seems significantly less willing to make the argument when it's KryptoDwight (as they're now calling Hack-a-Dwight).
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby tigerjeterkobe on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:22 am

Krypto-Dwight. :man10: :man10:

That is a good one. The number that Legler threw out this morning in stunning -- that Dwight has MISSED something like 120 FTs, and the next closest player is Griffin, who has missed 32. :man4: :man4:

The missed FTs have cost us in several games, obviously.

My point about Kobe is not an every game thing. The Indiana game, I guess I didn't mind it as much becasue he was not shooting us out of rhythm - he was our best option that night. I get frustrated when he comes out gunning from jump, to obviously get his milestone, when his playmaking is much more important and we LOSE A LEAD in part because he is going to ISO-style. Leads against Dallas and OKC in the playoffs were lost because Kobe tried to "CLOSE" the game and missed more than he made. The same has happened this year, and will keep happening. It is almost as destructive as Dwight's misses -- empty possessions because of low percentage shots (sad that Dwight's FTs are low percentage shots). What is Kobe's shooting perecentage in 4th quarters? I don't care that he shoots as much as I care that he is playing in ISO situations. If he shoots from a catch and shoot after some ball movement, then that I can live with. That is what a SG does. But when he goes 1 on 3 and doesn't kick it to Jamison, Duhon, or Meeks, that is when I get upset. He can be so much better. I hate to say it, but he can play more like Lebron in terms of making plays and trusting his guys.

How many teams has Kobe come back into a game in the 4th with a lead and he chucked us into a loss? I love his effort. But his scorer's mentality is not the best for this team, esp. with Nash and Gasol out. But I still love him....
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby LooN3y on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:48 am

the system doesnt fit the roster, if anyone thinks that Phil would of used pau as a jump shooter like dantoni is right now is on crack.

best bet we have right now i just oust dantoni, there is no way we're going to win a championship with him forcing his style of play with this roster, this isnt a run and gun team, his system doesnt fit at all. and him being surprised getting the job isnt so pleasing to hear either.


the lakers front office just embarrassed themselves after their epicly impressive off season acquisitions
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby khmrP on Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:12 am

lakerswiz wrote:Princeton offense would be nice right about now.


man you really loved Brown did you? :man10:
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby khmrP on Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:41 am

lakerswiz wrote:
khmrP wrote:
lakerswiz wrote:Princeton offense would be nice right about now.


man you really loved Brown did you? :man10:


Who ever said I liked Mike Brown at all, in any way?


well there was your incesent claim he would be here till June, to the princeston offense suggestion, I dont know seems like Brown type support comments to me :man10:
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby khmrP on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:46 pm

lakerswiz wrote:Well him being here til June was based on the actions I though the Lakers would take, not any type of tribute to his coaching powers to get us there.

As for the Princeton suggestion;

The Triangle Offense = Phil Jackson

The Princeton Offense =/= Mike Brown

The Princeton Offense = The Princeton Offense



well why would you want the princeston? Nobody on the team looked good in it except Kobe, Jamison/Meeks looked like total scrubs, Meeks didn't play period, maybe that was Brown and not the princeston. But again it didn't look fluid at all, the problem now isn't Offense at all
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby pound4pound1 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:50 pm

lakerswiz wrote:Princeton offense would be nice right about now.



agreed


at least we'll pace for 90pts, get blown out and not have these heartbreaking, last minute losses
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby karacha on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:09 pm

^

And Jamison+Meeks would be sitting on the bench - being paid a lot of money to do... nothing. It's a win-win situation for everyone! :jam2:
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby khmrP on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:24 pm

lakerswiz wrote:Soooo.....

The Princeton Offense being run automatically = Jamison and Meeks going to the bench?

I didn't say bring Mike Brown back. I didn't say I wanted him in place of Mike Dan Tony.

I simply said that The Princeton Offense would probably be nice right about now.


and what exactly did you see was nice bout the princeston when it was implemented?
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby karacha on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:24 pm

I disagree. I think it would be horrible. That's just me, obviously.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby The Rock on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:28 pm

Our offense is not even a big problem right now, despite the turnovers we're still shooting a very high % from the field...Dwight is getting his touches hes just getting fouled a lot (hence leading the league in FT attempts), also the attention hes drawing is opening things up for MWP and Jamison, how else are they scoring well then?? Duhon is doing well too. We just need to pay more attenttion on Defense and also need to close out games better. Its disappointing that a veteran team is having trouble with this but we gotta deal with this now, Id rather struggle now and find a resolution this early in the season than later
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:02 pm

I can't speak for wiz, but I think what he is alluding to is that a motion system is better than this 2 man game PnR crap that has most of the players staying in holding patterns out on the perimeter. The game plan right now is, PnR off Kobe and "fill in blank" while the other 3 just stand by with the occasional backdoor or dive to the cup. Mike Brown had poor rotations and didn't utilize that right players to motion around the Princeton. But for the most part, a motion offense is a much better scenario than a PnR offense...especially when rings are the endgame.

When other teams are outscoring us in the paint and when other teams are doing it with a less imposing front court while we have guys that can get it done down there but instead choose to fire it away from the perimeter...there's a problem.

People are looking at Dwight's free throws, but the Hack-a-Howard atrocity (aka HaHa) is not what is losing the games for us. Howard had 9 shot attempts.....meanwhile, Kobe shot 9 3balls. Kobe is a scorer, not Jesus Shuttlesworth. Like I said before, we got outscored in the paint and that isn't just a one game anomaly....it seems to be happening alot...so Kobe says he's more comfortable being in the post instead of running PnR for the majority of the game....here's a thought, how about instead of making Kobe play like Nash...lets have him play like Kobe, till Nash gets back. I rather see Kobe on the block taking 31 attempts, rather than Kobe PnR chuck from deep or Kobe diving to the rim with reckless abandon, getting no call and knowing that he recently had a foot problem. Kobe is a scorer, not a 3ball tactician. With Phil's triangle, there was Kobe ball, but it came from his comforts spot...on the block. Kobe played as a facilatator in the triangle too but he hardly had this many TOs. Plus 9 3balls would have had Phil rip Kobe a new one. Let Kobe be Kobe till Nash gets back. We don't need anybody, other than a PG, playing like Nash.

Meeks had 5 3ball attempts (making only 1) which is fine by me cause that's what he does. Dwight is more than just a roll guy off the PnR. He had 9 attempts. People will point to FTs as "touches" for Dwight, but is it really? Teams implant the HaHa cause they're laughing at the Lakers for not utilizing Dwight throughout the game. FT attempts coming off the ball through HaHa are not "touches" for Dwight. He needs more than 9 attempts through the 1st half of the game, let alone the entire game.

Lastly, this is why I can't stand D'Antoni's offense. Its PG heavy, with the big guy doing dummy rolls all game long. Well, our big guy is no dummy. He can walk at the end of this year or force his hand to relocate. Alot may like the possibility of him walking, but personally we have no future if our only young guy decides to walk. I'm interested in winning now, but I would like to also win or be put in a position to win in the near future. D'Antoni needs to establish the paint so that his big guys can get frequent and easy looks in the paint early. If the opposition takes that away, then obviously its through the double team where our bigs can look for a wide open teammate on the perimeter. So far, we have had plenty games where our frontline players are not getting the appropriate attention/"touches". That has to change.

Cause if all we have become is a jumpshooting team, then like last night, we'll see our leads dissipate rather quickly when our shots don't fall and not to mention, it will lead out to transition buckets for the other team if we can't secure an offensive board. You need a system that favors the personnel. We're not young and not really athletic. We got an excellent barrage of players that can play from the block. The triangle system was perfect for this team. Nash will be coming off an injury and lets face it, the dude is not young anymore. You can't place too much duress on a guy that is coming off an injury, yet that is the unfair expectation this fanbase and this coach is putting on him. If an offense needs a 39 year old coming off a fracture to make it look good, then its the wrong offense for this team.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby khmrP on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:10 pm

most of the team in this league now run a PnR heavy O, there must be a reason for that, as for the motion/princeston stuff...if its so succesessful why does no other team run it? The only one was apparently the Wiz back in the Arenas/Jamison/Butler days, all I saw was a bunch of iso's and those guys got it done cause they were iso oriented players. The O might have gotten better but beside us no other team that has won the chip last several years run motion O, they run PnR heavy sets.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:15 pm

^^Yeah, its cause most of them are young and most of the leagues stars are backcourt players. Heck even "big" players like Bron and Durant play like guards, cause they have the ability to do so.

Obviously there are alot of aspects that go into this. I know D'Antoni's offense is more than just PnR...but we also know that it is PnR heavy. It is largely PG driven. Kobe, Pau, Dwight vs Nash. This team's strengths come off the block. So IMHO, this offense either needs to utilize our strengths more or is not a good fit for this personnel if D'Antoni decides to remain the course and wait on Nash to solve everything.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby TIME on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:29 pm

Not sure why we are arguing offensive schemes. The last two games we gave up 40 and 34 points in the 4th quarter. We scored enough both games.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby khmrP on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:30 pm

if all you guys are seeing PnR everytime down then I disagree, there is less post up then before but its still there for Howard....I'm sure it will be even more PnR heavy with Nash return but given how this type of O has wreak havoc on our D, why can't we return the favor?
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:48 pm

TIME wrote:Not sure why we are arguing offensive schemes. The last two games we gave up 40 and 34 points in the 4th quarter. We scored enough both games.


TIME, I agree that defense is immensely important (especially when it comes to rings)...but the things we do on offense really have a large influence on D.

More uptempo leads to more offensive possessions, but it also leads towards us having to guard more possessions. For a veteran team, more possessions to both score and defend against scoring doesn't really add up to me...cause more possessions just leads to more work on both sides of the ball.

On offense, if you shoot from the perimeter and miss, the majority of times, your front line players are closer to the basket and the ball goes off the rim long. So you cut down your offensive rebound opportunities. Also, if the ball goes long and your guards don't retrieve it, it leads to a spontaneous transition fast break headed the other way. Again, our veteran team isn't as fast and athletic, so our bigs will trail the play further hurting our defense on a transition hoop coming off a long ball attempt.

Lastly, its a poor excuse, but we've all seen this or experienced it ourselves. If you don't get the ball on offense, most players will not give that extra energy on defense. If 2 guys seem to be the only ones involved on offense, then there are 3 other guys just hanging out, waiting for the ball and their efforts/spirits on defense will be the same approach. This is where the "if you don't feed the big dog, then the big dog won't guard the yard" mentality comes from.

So our offensive struggles definitely play a huge role in how we go about playing defense.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby TIME on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:59 pm

Vasashi17 wrote:
TIME wrote:Not sure why we are arguing offensive schemes. The last two games we gave up 40 and 34 points in the 4th quarter. We scored enough both games.


TIME, I agree that defense is immensely important (especially when it comes to rings)...but the things we do on offense really have a large influence on D.

More uptempo leads to more offensive possessions, but it also leads towards us having to guard more possessions. For a veteran team, more possessions to both score and defend against scoring doesn't really add up to me...cause more possessions just leads to more work on both sides of the ball.

On offense, if you shoot from the perimeter and miss, the majority of times, your front line players are closer to the basket and the ball goes off the rim long. So you cut down your offensive rebound opportunities. Also, if the ball goes long and your guards don't retrieve it, it leads to a spontaneous transition fast break headed the other way. Again, our veteran team isn't as fast and athletic, so our bigs will trail the play further hurting our defense on a transition hoop coming off a long ball attempt.

Lastly, its a poor excuse, but we've all seen this or experienced it ourselves. If you don't get the ball on offense, most players will not give that extra energy on defense. If 2 guys seem to be the only ones involved on offense, then there are 3 other guys just hanging out, waiting for the ball and their efforts/spirits on defense will be the same approach. This is where the "if you don't feed the big dog, then the big dog won't guard the yard" mentality comes from.

So our offensive struggles definitely play a huge role in how we go about playing defense.


Vash, the only possible connection I see is that Pringles offensive system is wearing guys out and have no energy left for 4th quarter D. But, if the other guys are just standing around all game, then the only guy that should be worn out in the 4th is Kobe. Anything that leads to the conclusion that they have a valid excuse to give up 40 and 34 point 4th quarters I'm just not going to agree with.

I'm not saying the offensive system does not matter. I'm saying it has nothing (valid) to do with why we lost these last two games.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:15 pm

^^Defense is "team".... and while people can be tired a good system that everyone understands what to do and when will be sufficient to provide a consistent defensive expectation. You telling me that Boston, with old players and a fairly short bench, can play defense for 4 quarter while and our guys can't. Doc has created a culture of "us against them" around that team and they buy into it and play like it most nights and are being more successful with a team of aging players compared to our "Super team" of former "Alphas".

Last year it was our other center that was singled out as the problem.... this year since the new center has 3 DPOY's it can't be him so the focus seems to move to Kobe.... or Pau or whomever. The problem is (and has been) a lack of effort and cohesiveness on that end of the floor. The offensive consistency we are seeing is the same thing.... one night we move without the ball and pass..... the next night we act like we've never played a TEAM sport before....

The culture needs to start at the top and work it's way down on both sides of half court IMHO. I have no idea of MDA is the guy to do that. I am beginning to have my doubts when I hear things he's been saying about Nash coming back to solve the problems..... this is more than ball facilitation or a minor improvement in 3 point shooting going on out there....
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:30 pm

There's no excuse at all to give up that many points late in the game.....unless they are tired.

So lets see...uptempo leads to more possessions....more possessions means more effort to score on those possessions and also more effort in guarding more possessions.

21 3ball attempts (2/3rds of them missed) leads to transition fast breaks headed the other way attributing to the opposition getting more points in the paint even with less formidable front line players.

Big dog not being fed leading to not guarding the yard? 9 total shot attempts vs 21 shot attempts from 3land. On offense if players are greenlit by coach to shoot from the perimeter, then on defense, Howard is greenlit to get that D back in Antoni's name. Problem is, he goes for a swat and if he whiffs, we're too slow and nonathletic to help the helper which leads to either the opposition dunking or poor defensive rebound security (as seen in the ridiculous amount of offensive boards they got last night).

One thing is for sure, this coach is not preaching team. When it comes to offense, his sermon is that Nash is the messiah that will resurrect us from basketball purgatory ...uh coach, don't you know that Kob is the devil? :guru:
When it comes to defense, 'Antoni wants Dwight to put the the D back in his name...uh coach if you do that, don't you know wight man can't jump.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby lotus on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:27 pm

All this discussion would be unnecessary if Phil were hired:

-Rambis and crew would scheme the defenses.
-Dwight would be happy to be under Phil's guidance and, with his personality, would eat up the zen.
-Kobe would be under control with Phil, because he is not with MDA.
-The triangle would be run with Nash instead of Fisher.

You can debate MDA, and whether the Princeton or the pick & roll will work better whenever Nash gets back. But the bottom line is that jimmy blew it again. Like I'll say again, if D12 leaves this will be a disaster. And it will be a complete disaster if the Clippers get Phil, assuming Del Negro can't at least get them to the Western Conference Finals.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Greatest of All Time on Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:05 pm

I think D'Antoni should consider taking a page out of Woodson's book and adjust the system to fit his players. He doesn't have to go entirely away from his bread and butter pick and roll, but the Knicks are built eerily similar to this team.

Their first option is Melo in the post and if they can't find him, they run a Felton-Chandler pick and roll.

http://hoopchalk.com/2012/11/13/mike-wo ... s-offense/

It looks like they Knicks use plays that involve multiple screens/off ball screens. I like it better than D'Antoni's high screen-roll at the top while everyone else camps around on the perimeter so that the PG can "probe".

At first glance, it seems like the Knicks have better shooters but it's not as wide of a gap as it seems


Kobe Bryant .394 vs Melo .435 - you've got the team leaders
Steve Nash (presumably .400+) vs Felton .419 - the PGs
Ron Artest .378 vs JR smith .380 - the guys who like to jack up 3s but can get hot
Jodie Meeks .409 vs Steve Novak .425 - the specialists
Darius Morris .419 vs Ronnie Brewer .416 - the corner 3 defensive guys
Duhon .438 + Steve Blake .400 vs. Jason Kidd .498 Yes even as a corpse, Kidd > Blake + Duhon
Jamison .333 vs Prigioni .364 I don't know what to name this one

Howard .590 vs Chandler .712 Literally all Chandler does is score on dunks and layups. Dwight's the same with some post moves here and there which brings his FG% down.

It seems like difference is that they use off-ball screens such as screens for screeners to get guys better looks vs. D'Antoni forcing 3 guys to camp around the perimeter and just wait for a kick out while two guys high screen-roll at the top. And if Melo and the high screen roll aren't there, they use dribble hand-offs.

Seems like a more varied offense than the one D'Antoni is using. They should try it with Pau in the Melo role. He's not as explosive of a scorer but he's a much better passer. He could find guys off cuts or spotting up. I don't know if he's still good enough to consistently score 1vs1 vs NBA defenders anymore though. He always seems to get pushed off the block.

If D'Antoni really was an offensive genius, he'd find a way to make it work rather than hope that 39 year old Steve Nash will return and magically pick and roll everyone to death.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby LooN3y on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:02 am

lotus wrote:All this discussion would be unnecessary if Phil were hired:

-Rambis and crew would scheme the defenses.
-Dwight would be happy to be under Phil's guidance and, with his personality, would eat up the zen.
-Kobe would be under control with Phil, because he is not with MDA.
-The triangle would be run with Nash instead of Fisher.

You can debate MDA, and whether the Princeton or the pick & roll will work better whenever Nash gets back. But the bottom line is that jimmy blew it again. Like I'll say again, if D12 leaves this will be a disaster. And it will be a complete disaster if the Clippers get Phil, assuming Del Negro can't at least get them to the Western Conference Finals.




this,


and its not like we're going to run the triangle 100% especially with nash, even back in 2010 we ran a lot of pick and rolls with pau and kobe, it was all situational, the system should fit the roster not the other way around especially with all this talent.


pringles is an idiot, but miles better than potato head. all said, jim buss is an embarrassment, to the league, to the organization, to the city, and his family.


all he needs to do is be the owner, ok the money to spend money on players and coaches, no dictate whos on the team, trading, and hiring of the coaches.


this guys an idiot, and in backstage lakers, u can tell nobody gives this guy and inch of respect.



edit: we should make a "hate jim buss movement" like we did with mike brown and see how that plays out. maybe he'll just quit for the good of the organization or maybe jerry might shift powers to jeanie.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Finwë on Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:10 pm

We didn't get Phil. He's not coming back. We need to move on.

I mostly agree with TIME here.
In theory, what lakerswiz and Vash are saying is very valid, there is a connection between O and D, and those (the ones they pointed out) are some of the ways one influences the other -one of the reasons I don't agree with statements like "Steve Nash returning won't help our defense at all"-. Having said that, IMO that is NOT what happened in these 2 games we're talking about. I was watching closely at the action on the defensive end, and our struggles had nothing to do with offensive schemes. Guys were simply lost, lacked effort -not "energy" per se, I don't think they were tired, it's more of an attitude thing, a willingness to rotate and recover- and for stretches looked like they didn't care enough. It was very frustrating to watch, and there's a lot of blame on the coaches, but in this case it's not (to me) about the offensive end at all (we have problems on that end too, obviously, just talking influence on D).
Last edited by Finwë on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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