Mike D'Antoni Discussion: "I was an idiot..." (155)

Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Finwë on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:34 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
Helljumper wrote:Offensively ... what's the problem? Dwight's getting nearly the same amount of shot attempts as a first option in Orlando. He's getting plenty of post opportunities. He's just been ineffective. And when your best player is a perimeter scorer who gets up around 20-30 shots a game, touches are going to be limited. Just ask Bynum, who has proven to be significantly better than Dwight in the low post.


He's getting about 3 less shots a game.... that's not my point however. I actually thought he'd get about as many as Bynum got last year and that's pretty close to where he is now.

My issue is recognition on offense of mismatches. Last night it was Pau and Howard against Koufos and Faried.... and we didn't force feed the post for what reason?.... the system. Faried was let off the hook in guarding Pau in the post where he would be overmatched and was allowed to guard Pau on the perimeter where he has the advantage.... Howard may be more limited in the post than Bynum (I agree with you on this) but he's still got a huge advantage on Koufos down there. Why not pound it in there and create some fouls and a reaction out of Karl? Instead we played a system and didn't play strength to weakness.....

This is the difference in a good coach and one that can be a difference maker on a championship team.....

Last night's problem was NOT our offense. We scored a lot of points at an effective rate, and that's with 2 of our 3pt shooters (MWP and Meeks) being extremely cold, Morris and Duhon not doing anything, Jamison getting a DNP CD and Hill being Hill. Kobe, Nash & Pau had it rolling, so we kept going with what was working.

To be fair, with Dwight bricking FTs (he was like 2 for 7 last night at one point, don't know if that's what he ended up with) and not really having a reliable post up game, I'm not sure that was such an effective option.
Pau wasn't one either. Nevermind Faried, Pau hasn't been able to effectively post up and score against "who the F is this" players for a while now. His post game is polished but his determination on the block is non-existant. He continiously passes the ball out, he flails his arms and screams for fouls, he takes contested jumpshots..
Again, I don't think on offense we really needed to change much last night. There was a tweet that described the night pretty accurately, it was something like: "Again the Lakers make a great play on offense but can't manage to get a stop on the other end. 10 point game".

The game was lost ENTIRELY at the defensive end. We couldn't rotate or rebound to save our lives.
BTW you noted how desinterested Howard looked, adding that to what I already pointed out about his offensive game on the block I don't think feeding him the ball against a very active team was such a great idea.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby JLaker17 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:42 pm

We put up 114 and the issue is offense?

The problem is the effort on the defensive side never matches the offensive side. Countless times we had 3 guys under the basked and somehow Faried gets the rebound? I believe he had, or was close to 10 rebounds in the 1st quarter. You have Howard and Gasol two big guys getting absolutely out hustled on every play defensively. Jordan Hill should have, and still should get more minutes.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:49 pm

Finwë wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
Helljumper wrote:Offensively ... what's the problem? Dwight's getting nearly the same amount of shot attempts as a first option in Orlando. He's getting plenty of post opportunities. He's just been ineffective. And when your best player is a perimeter scorer who gets up around 20-30 shots a game, touches are going to be limited. Just ask Bynum, who has proven to be significantly better than Dwight in the low post.


He's getting about 3 less shots a game.... that's not my point however. I actually thought he'd get about as many as Bynum got last year and that's pretty close to where he is now.

My issue is recognition on offense of mismatches. Last night it was Pau and Howard against Koufos and Faried.... and we didn't force feed the post for what reason?.... the system. Faried was let off the hook in guarding Pau in the post where he would be overmatched and was allowed to guard Pau on the perimeter where he has the advantage.... Howard may be more limited in the post than Bynum (I agree with you on this) but he's still got a huge advantage on Koufos down there. Why not pound it in there and create some fouls and a reaction out of Karl? Instead we played a system and didn't play strength to weakness.....

This is the difference in a good coach and one that can be a difference maker on a championship team.....

Last night's problem was NOT our offense. We scored a lot of points at an effective rate, and that's with 2 of our 3pt shooters (MWP and Meeks) being extremely cold, Morris and Duhon not doing anything, Jamison getting a DNP CD and Hill being Hill. Kobe, Nash & Pau had it rolling, so we kept going with what was working.

To be fair, with Dwight bricking FTs (he was like 2 for 7 last night at one point, don't know if that's what he ended up with) and not really having a reliable post up game, I'm not sure that was such an effective option.
Pau wasn't one either. Nevermind Faried, Pau hasn't been able to effectively post up and score against "who the F is this" players for a while now. His post game is polished but his determination on the block is non-existant. He continiously passes the ball out, he flails his arms and screams for fouls, he takes contested jumpshots..
Again, I don't think on offense we really needed to change much last night. There was a tweet that described the night pretty accurately, it was something like: "Again the Lakers make a great play on offense but can't manage to get a stop on the other end. 10 point game".

The game was lost ENTIRELY at the defensive end. We couldn't rotate or rebound to save our lives.
BTW you noted how desinterested Howard looked, adding that to what I already pointed out about his offensive game on the block I don't think feeding him the ball against a very active team was such a great idea.


Maybe it would "interest" him to be given the ball when being guarded by someone like Koufos..... cause and effect....

I agree our defense sucked.... but it's sucked for a while now. We couldn't get stops and they started hitting 3's they don't usually hit.... that's what happens when you give them confidence and a home crowd.

By going at Faried you take some of the energy out of his game even if Pau misses. To put no pressure on him at all is just conceding IMO.... Faried was the difference in the game early that dug the hole we were trying to get out of all game... you go at him by either going to Pau or doing a rub cross screen in the paint and get a switch with him guarding Howard in the paint.... keep doing it until Karl makes a move.... That's what Phil did.... it's what Pop does and it works in changing momentum and shortening runs in games....

To not recognize where our mismatches isn't going to take us very far when the playoffs start and we are playing the same team for 7 games.... if he can't adjust now what will happen then?
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Ariza3 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:51 pm

its about understanding where to be on defense, understanding eachother's defensive tendencies, communication, and helping eachother out.

all that ontop of bringing energy and effort for 48 mins. when every guy in the paint on your team doesnt even jump for a rebound you have a problem.

wish we had fisher just to lead this team bc obviously kobe cant in that way. his way his leading his team by doing which clearly isnt working.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:58 pm

Ariza3 wrote:wish we had fisher just to lead this team bc obviously kobe cant in that way.


This is interesting.... because if you trace our record back to the day we traded him it's not good at all..... in fact I believe it's about 10 games below .500 or more.

Taking nothing away from Kobe but being an inspirational leader is one of the very few basketball related things he isn't .
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Finwë on Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:27 pm

Roos, you may have a point in that, even though our offense was effective, maybe we should've considered going more inside because of the collateral effects you named. However, by our players body language, demeanour and just how terrible our D was (IMO our worst defensive "effort" of the season, I mean, 126 points given up, no rotations or rebounding what so ever, giving them MANY options to score on), I just don't see that being a difference maker.
Something needed to be done, clearly, but changing the offense, which was working fine, just because our D wasn't there I don't know was the right move, in this particular game. I thought the halftime stop was a GREAT opportunity for D'Antoni to really call out the guys and tell them just how awful they were defending and how that needed to change. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to have been the case.
THAT'S IMO the problem with D'Antoni, the level of concern he seems to give to defense, I just don't think it's enough.

With Nash running the helm, and considering Howard's struggles from the line, lack of consistent post moves and Gasol's passiveness, I don't mind this style of offense. It's not like we never post up our bigs.. We are NOT those Suns teams, we don't play with that kind of pace and we do go to the post often. Not as often as we used to or could with a different coach, but still pretty often.

It's our defense that's gonna be the difference maker this year, and I am worried about that.

BTW, I pointed out in another thread that last night Faried was able to get his points just by being agressive and crashing the boards. Karl doesn't call plays for him, and most of their bigs get their points in P&R and by being agressive. Howard's not supposed to quit on D because he's not getting many touches on the block, and if he feels he needs to get the ball more, a great way of going about it is asserting himself on the offensive glass, he definitely has the necessary tools... Our P&R will only improve, and we have great and willing passers other than Nash too. I think with time Howard is gonna be getting more and easier baskets.
Not posting up Howard enough is not really one of my main concerns right now.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:36 pm

Helljumper wrote:Once again ... I have no idea what the issue with D'antoni is (other than rotations, which are poor but still infinitely better than what Brown was doing.)

We're not a good defensive team. Our starting PF is a slow, unathletic 7 footer whereas most of the league has started to utilize speed/energy over size. Our best player who is supposed to be a great defender only tries on that end of the court maybe half of the time. We had these same defensive issues last season and earlier this year with a "defensive" coach. No available coach could have magically cured these fundamental defensive flaws in the roster to make us significantly better defensively.

Offensively ... what's the problem? Dwight's getting nearly the same amount of shot attempts as a first option in Orlando. He's getting plenty of post opportunities. He's just been ineffective. And when your best player is a perimeter scorer who gets up around 20-30 shots a game, touches are going to be limited. Just ask Bynum, who has proven to be significantly better than Dwight in the low post.


This is probably the most sensible post I've read; we've had issues defensively even dating back to Phil's last year when we got bounced out by Dallas. The problem I have is on the peremiter. Nash does battle but he still gets school. Kobe is older. So, we bring in Morris who is a good defender who helps, but is a liability on the offensive end most of the time.

We're slow, old, and lack the speed that some of these teams possess; you can minimize by giving effort and communicating on that end but that's something we've haven't done consistently all season with Brown or D'Antoni. We're still at a point where we are trying to build chemistry and trust on the court.

MDA hasn't been perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but he is certainly better then his predecessor. For the most part, he's done a decent job with Steve and Gasol out and limited time with our starting 5 together. It's not doom and gloom, yet, at least for me. We'll work through this process...
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Ariza3 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:22 am

if he set on this bring metta off the bench at the 4 then id rather him start ebanks at the 3. dantoni needs to hold kobe accountable for playing d...its a part of the game and he needs to do it. kobe at the 2 and ebanks at the 3. ebanks would only be there for what, 5-6 minutes. so i think kobe can defend for 5-6 mins. ebanks is a good defender, is athletic, long, and a decent midrange shooter, aswell as rebounder energy guy.

i think if dantoni sets ebanks role strict in that he needs to defend his man, crash the boards, get back quick, and run in transition so nash can find him. ebanks when hes calm and not trigger happy bc he hasnt played ever is actually good. especially for only 5-6 mins a half before metta comes in.

rather see ebanks than morris. kobe can guard their SG for 5-6 mins and ebanks can do well in bringing some youth to the starters. energy and hustle is only brought in when hill and meeks come in...so why not have it from the start with ebanks. morris is good defensively but ebanks can bring the same thing as well as not having to handle the ball and turn it over, he can rebound better, draw fouls, putbacks, run for easy fastbreaks, get back on D etc.

why not try it bc morris has been a 0 lately since starting. try new things before its too late and we have wasted talent on the bench who can come in and contribute for 5-6 measly minutes.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby lakersin4 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:42 am

I'd like to see D'antoni play some Phil mind games.. Make comments about Kobe's defense in the media.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby DarthRekal on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:42 am

please free bernie :man5:
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby kosstick on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:51 am

Really Bernie is the answer? Get real and not to mention the guy doesn't even want to be head coach. The only reason we won so many games under Bernie was because of that surge of new found freedom from being under Mike Brown. If Bernie was such a stud he'd be head coaching somewhere by now.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby DarthRekal on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:55 am

kosstick wrote:Really Bernie is the answer? Get real and not to mention the guy doesn't even want to be head coach. The only reason we won so many games under Bernie was because of that surge of new found freedom from being under Mike Brown. If Bernie was such a stud he'd be head coaching somewhere by now.

LOL... good talk kosstick.. nice to chat with mellow minds...

point is to get rid of dantoni.... they are not hiring ANOTHER coach.. so we would be left with Bernie.. he is my choice of what we have.... dantoni.. is dumnb as a post..at least he would practice defense.. now swallow the red pill :man10:
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby 432J on Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:01 am

firing dan tony and replacing him with bernie as interim coach would be amazing. they were 4-1 under bernie!

but we all know that won't happen, and it still pains me so much to think that they passed over phil jackson for this clown. just imagine this stacked team with phil jackson as head coach. i've said it again and again, as long as jim buss is in LA, the lakers aren't winning crap. he's ruined this team for the long run by passing over phil. he couldn't just swallow his pride and make the obvious right move. and because of that, this team is screwed
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Doc Brown on Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:14 am

Just imagine this stacked team playing the same crappy effortless defense every other game.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby scissors on Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:16 am

Hopefully this clown quits on us too. It worked out well for New York.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Rooscooter on Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:17 am

Finwë wrote:Roos, you may have a point in that, even though our offense was effective, maybe we should've considered going more inside because of the collateral effects you named. However, by our players body language, demeanour and just how terrible our D was (IMO our worst defensive "effort" of the season, I mean, 126 points given up, no rotations or rebounding what so ever, giving them MANY options to score on), I just don't see that being a difference maker.
Something needed to be done, clearly, but changing the offense, which was working fine, just because our D wasn't there I don't know was the right move, in this particular game. I thought the halftime stop was a GREAT opportunity for D'Antoni to really call out the guys and tell them just how awful they were defending and how that needed to change. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to have been the case.
THAT'S IMO the problem with D'Antoni, the level of concern he seems to give to defense, I just don't think it's enough.

With Nash running the helm, and considering Howard's struggles from the line, lack of consistent post moves and Gasol's passiveness, I don't mind this style of offense. It's not like we never post up our bigs.. We are NOT those Suns teams, we don't play with that kind of pace and we do go to the post often. Not as often as we used to or could with a different coach, but still pretty often.

It's our defense that's gonna be the difference maker this year, and I am worried about that.

BTW, I pointed out in another thread that last night Faried was able to get his points just by being agressive and crashing the boards. Karl doesn't call plays for him, and most of their bigs get their points in P&R and by being agressive. Howard's not supposed to quit on D because he's not getting many touches on the block, and if he feels he needs to get the ball more, a great way of going about it is asserting himself on the offensive glass, he definitely has the necessary tools... Our P&R will only improve, and we have great and willing passers other than Nash too. I think with time Howard is gonna be getting more and easier baskets.
Not posting up Howard enough is not really one of my main concerns right now.


Well my friend, this comes full circle to my original thoughts when MDA took over..... we don't have the personnel to run his system. I was hoping for an adjustment to seek out and exploit our "advantages" on offense and at least some lip service to defense but the worst seems to be playing out. He is trying to "Hammer to fit" our players into an inflexible system it seems.

We have 5 great to very good players and they have advantages against most teams if you can find them and exploit them. MDA seems more interested in having Pau be the next Lamar Odom than taking advantage of his abilities in the post. Not saying that Pau will have success but putting pressure on the defense seems like a good idea....

The defensive end is a total mess and is getting worse because of the minutes, nagging age related injuries, lack of depth and lack of focus/effort. Getting Nash back and increasing possessions per game isn't really helping either IMO.... we have more opportunity.... but so does our opposition. I don't think Howard is the key to the defense.... MDA is.... and until the mindset that Dwight is going to cover for everyone's mistakes or lapses goes away we are going to suck on that end of the floor.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:43 am

This D'Antoni blame is hilarious. Replace him with Bernie :man10:

You guys are too much
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Rooscooter on Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:22 am

^^Says the guy with the Mike Brown slamming avatar....... ironic and hilarious at the same time.....
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Center Court on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:19 pm

Mike just went 5-1 in the last 6 games. Given we are 14-15, we have 53 games left. If we keep at the recent pace, we will go 44-9. That's a pretty damn good record.

Now I'm not saying we will do that, but lets say we play at a somewhat close record, 50 game is no problem. Something feels like Nash will get us there and as Pau and Dwight get healthy, we'll get even better.

I'd like to see how we perform int he next 10 games before I call for his head and call this a colossal failure.

All that said, he needs someone to focus our defensive rotations. IMO a great defensive assistant coach is the difference between a good team and a great team. However, I do believe that Kobe/Dwight/Metta can and will help us forge a defensive identity, even if our coach doesn't.

My worries come playoff time. Our rotation is horrible, we don't play though the post, and we're running Kobe into the ground with all these mins.

Why couldn't Buss just swallow his pride and hire Phil?!?!?!
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Ariza3 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:14 pm

hes doing a good job. defense could be better but that has to be from the players effort and energy. when we want to defend we can get stops...look at all our comeback wins. we just have to do it for 48 mins like every other elite team with good records. look at the clippers....point diff of 10.3. thats insane.

hopefully we get a good solid non-nail biting win and start another streak. :jam2:
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Doc Brown on Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:46 pm

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Will Antawn Jamison ever crack the Lakers rotation again? Mike D'Antoni addressed it today at shootaround ...

"Probably," D'Antoni said, simply, when asked if Jamison would get a chance to cut his DNP-CD streak anytime in the near future. "Everybody gets another chance. We’re playing nine guys and I’m really liking Metta (World Peace) going and making us small. I like that. We don’t want to lose Antawn because he does what he does, but Darius (Morris), I want to keep developing him. His defense, his energy, his stuff of that sort. But, we’ll see. Antawn is ready to roll if we need him."

In so many words, D'Antoni is choosing the defense of Morris, World Peace, Jordan Hill and Jodie Meeks as back-ups in the SG, SF and PF roles over any offense Jamison would bring.

Jamison is averaging 7.2 points and 4.5 rebounds on the season and once had a stretch of scoring double digits in six out of seven games (including a 33-point explosion in a 19-point win over Denver) but hasn't played a minute in the Lakers' last four games.

"I’m sure he wants to play, as does any player wants to play, but he’s great," D'Antoni said. "He’s a professional and he knows his chance will come around."


Why is everyone high on Darius Morris ? :man3:

Why can't Jamison get the backup 3 minutes when Mwp is at the 4? It will bring down Kobe's minutes.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Ariza3 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:22 pm

averaging double figuring in that stretch was awesome. I really think him and metta should play together and, like above said, cross match defensively if need be. Metta can still take on PF's and Jamison can stretch the floor and attack as well as his little post loves over short defenders.

It's stupid not to play Jamison who is a solid vet as can go off on any night. we need those wild cards that the defense has too account for and make it hard or them to chose. the more options we have the better we are. look at the clippers. Barnes Turiaf Odom (now a days) etc are by no means amazing players but they can come in and do work on any given night.

I want Jamison to play more and next to Metta could be a good thing work Hill at center sometimes to give pau rest. wish pau sat out tonight until he's 100% so Jamison could get some burn honestly
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Ariza3 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:24 pm

we need to be unpredictable and having Jamison come in makes it really tough for the D as well as if Ebanks starts at the 3 instead of Morris. ideas like that will improve our team as well as being together the team as everyone gets minutes limited or not and is happy to help the team win. Jamison deserves it for how little
money he took to come here and wants to earn his ring
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Finwë on Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:12 pm

Morris is terrible. I seriously don't get that.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby 432J on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:33 pm

morris and ebanks are soooooo bad

it's not even cool. why the hell are these 2 clowns still playing while a proven, borderling HOF'er in jamison is rotting away on the bench?

screw you dan tony
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