Mike D'Antoni Discussion: RESIGNS AS LAKERS COACH (184)

Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Lakerjones on Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:39 pm

KareemTheGreat33 wrote:If he didn't try to be cute with the starting line-up, I think we'll have a reversed record right now...but insisting on his 2 point guard starters and stretch four crap really put pressure on the bench to make up for being down early on and losing steam at endgames.


+1. And of course, it's not him being cute but actually believing that Nash and Blake backcourt is the way to go. That's what troubles me. When/if Nash ever returns prepare yourself for that starting lineup again. I think the only reason he stopped was that Nash is hurt. Otherwise we'll probably have to put up with that until Kobe returns. It's awful.

It's one of the reasons I'm truly hoping Nash retires. I don't want him as an option for D' Antoni to continue using, forcing Blake to the 2 where he sucks. Blake should just be our starting PG for the rest of the season. Nash isn't bringing enough to the plate.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby sister golden hair on Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:56 pm

Lakerjones wrote:
KareemTheGreat33 wrote:If he didn't try to be cute with the starting line-up, I think we'll have a reversed record right now...but insisting on his 2 point guard starters and stretch four crap really put pressure on the bench to make up for being down early on and losing steam at endgames.


+1. And of course, it's not him being cute but actually believing that Nash and Blake backcourt is the way to go. That's what troubles me. When/if Nash ever returns prepare yourself for that starting lineup again. I think the only reason he stopped was that Nash is hurt. Otherwise we'll probably have to put up with that until Kobe returns. It's awful.

It's one of the reasons I'm truly hoping Nash retires. I don't want him as an option for D' Antoni to continue using, forcing Blake to the 2 where he sucks. Blake should just be our starting PG for the rest of the season. Nash isn't bringing enough to the plate.


MDA has a soft spot for the small back-court. maybe for all small players (relative to their position). He seems to think that playing guys out of position makes the team faster and creates mismatches that opponents cannot counter. But that's simply not the case. What ends up happening is that the smaller lakers playing out of position gets brutalized on the other end by bigger, stronger players playing their natural position.

It might be different if all the lakers smalls were gazelles who could not miss. But some of them are injured caribou out there.

MAD seems fixated on playing one way, and is either pathologically nostalgic for his Phoenix days, in denial about the current condition of his favorite players. or just not a very smart coach. Not having the horses is one thing; having some horses but handicapping them is quite another.

Many of us always thought he was a horrendous hire. And I think most of us have accepted that, for better or worse, he will be around through the end of the season. But when we see our most pessimistic pedictions come true, and when we see MDA do some of the same lame things we thought he would do if given the reins, it's like picking at a scab never giving it a chance to heal.

I won't be content about the laker coaching position until MDA is fired and a stronger coach is put at the helm.

Part of me still can't believe the lakers hired him. That was just one of the worst decisions the FO has ever made.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Lakerjones on Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:35 am

^^ I don't disagree with any of what you said above sister golden hair. And I was one of those who was horrified when MDA was hired. I am also still in shock seeing this guy as our HC. I feel like it's a bad dream. We used to make fun of this guy - Pringles. Now we have to watch him on our bench and on the podium after games. It's just ugly.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby TheOp on Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:23 am

I really dont know how much you can blame Dantoni at this point. You cant expect many wins with this roster, and I really think hes gotten the most out of them. Our record should probably be even worse, we shoudlnt have beaten the Clippers or Rockets.

Unless Kobe comes back, my expectations are very low. Were 4-7 with a fully healthy roster except for Kobe, and Nash whos a liability anyways. Just imagine if guys started missing time, we might see Blake starting at the 3. :disagree:
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Helljumper on Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:38 pm

I think D'antoni's done a great job with this roster so far this year. His rotations are fine (although it took him a few games to figure out) and his playstyle compliments the roster perfectly. I keep hearing complaints about D'antoni's "small ball" and three-point heavy offense ... but I really don't see what other option we have on a team with NO star player and whose best offensive threat is Jodie freakin' Meeks. Playing a slowed down traditional game where we pound the ball into Pau in the post would be horrendous to watch.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Vasashi17 on Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:08 pm

^^^And this is my biggest gripe with the pro-MDA crowd. How does watching a fun/entertaining offense really translate to good basketball and more importantly title basketball?

The last title game we saw was game 7 against those guys and it was a horrendous game to watch offensively....

Launching from deep 20+ times a game isn't good basketball and for one that totes around being a "genius" on offense, you would hope for something more high %age.

Even if you got no stars on the team, you want to develop players by playing the right way. Players are so enamored to be on SportsCenter instead of playing the right way. And you would think the coaches would redirect these priorities.....du du du du du dumb
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Helljumper on Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:33 pm

^Horrendous to watch because it would clearly be wildly ineffective and make us a significantly worse team ...

But hey, as long as we stick with the same playstyle that won us titles 3+ years ago with a completely different roster composition, who cares if we have an anemic offense. As long as we're playing the "right" way, right?
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby sister golden hair on Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:00 pm

No need to be doctrinaire in one's offensive approach, even though MDA tends to be.

The offense needn't be three yards and a cloud of dust nor need it be shoot 30 threes every game. Some balance would be good. But I would suggest that the three ball -- the quick three at that -- should never be one's default option.

The thing that irked me most about the hiring of MDA was the claim that his approach would echo the Showtime Lakers. I found that laughable. Showtime rebounded, played good D and ran a track meet to the RIM, and had a killer post game. Their default play was a high percentage Skyhook. The three-ball became a featured part of their arsenal toward the back end of the run. It was never the meat and potatoes of their attack. And that team was tough. They could slow it down to a crawl, squeeze the air out of the ball, and execute in the half court if that's what was required. The only real similarity was that MDA's Phoenix teams and and Showtime had excellent PGs. But The Laker attack was inside out, with nice mid-range balance from guys like Nixon, WIlkes and B. Scott. It was not outsde-outside.

MDA's philosophy is built around spreading the floor -- "spacing" -- and firing away from the perimeter (or at least that's what it degrades to, because there's nothing else to build on). And that's it. Is that "genius"?

I think Don Nelson played fast and small better and more cleverly. So did Doug Moe. I'm not sure why MDA gets so much equity for an approach that he never guided across the finish line. Yo me he's the Mike Martz of NBA coaches. When asked about problems in the offense MDA likes to dispense vague generalities, e.g., the ball finds energy. When asked about the defense, he just says they have to play harder.

I don't know. Seems half-bakled to me.

All the talk from players -- alleged -- that they love playing for him because he gives them so much freedom is misguided. That's like handing a saxophone to a jazz musician and saying, "here, play any note you want in any order you desire."

You need structure. You need folks to know their roles. It doesn't have to be a straitjacket, but it can't all be loosy-goosey either.

This team is hit or miss because the system they run is hit or miss -- there's nothing consistent to build on on nights when it's not all clicking. Right now their best offensive play, IMO, is a Jordan Hill put-back, which is more a credit to Jordan than anything else. When they are hitting from distance, they can beat even a good team. When they aren't hitting (which is more likely in a given game), they are a sub-500 squad.

Like I said -- genius.

I don't find the brand of ball all that entertaining.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby karacha on Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:51 pm

He's getting better. Slowly but surely. At least he sees what Hill can do, so he plays him. I call that progress.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Vasashi17 on Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:54 pm

SGH: Couldn't have said it any better!
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby CarFlagChris on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:00 pm

sister golden hair wrote:The offense needn't be three yards and a cloud of dust nor need it be shoot 30 threes every game. Some balance would be good. But I would suggest that the three ball -- the quick three at that -- should never be one's default option.

The thing that irked me most about the hiring of MDA was the claim that his approach would echo the Showtime Lakers. I found that laughable. Showtime rebounded, played good D and ran a track meet to the RIM, and had a killer post game.


Is there actually an offensive plan? I thought the plan was to do an initial pick and roll/pop and, if that doesn't work - jack up a three and, if it misses, hope Hill gets the rebound. Sometimes, like tonight against Indiana, it works. Otherwise, live by the 3, die by the 3.

That "offense" is fine during this year, which is a rebuilding year to see who gets a long-term contract under the new CBA. Byron Scott should be able to take it from there.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Doc Brown on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:01 pm

Are you guys actually watching the offense when it's being run?
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby sister golden hair on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:05 pm

"When" it's being run?

Should we only watch when they score, too?

Aren't they supposed to "always run" it?
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Doc Brown on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:10 pm

sister golden hair wrote:"When" it's being run?

Should we only watch when they score, too?

Aren't they supposed to "always run" it?


I can rephrase my statement for you.

Do you watch the offense?

We don't just run a simple pick and roll and then just shoot a 3 if nothing works.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Magic Skywalker on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:13 pm

There is absolutely NO team that always runs its offense. Nor that is supposed to. It's just impossible. No matter how good is an offense, it will break by one reason or another, and players must improvise in those situations.

That happens now with D'Antoni, and it also happened with Phil Jackson and the triangle. Problem is... we don't have the best players in the world for those situations, so when the offense breaks, its a huge problem for us without Kobe.

D'Antoni is far from an elite coach, but he is no idiot. He does run a good offense, and knows how to make adjustements (though he is VERY slow in realizing them).

To put an example, Mike Brown really was a case were we almost never ran an offense (just very simple sets), and someone who just didn't know how to adjust.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Battle Tested20 on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:14 pm

I really liked how he called timeouts tonight. MDA was on point calling them when the Pistons started to make a run
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Vasashi17 on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:18 pm

I understand where you're coming from Doc...but here's a question I'm more interested in. Is it an offense worth running?

We went on a run last year, after we scrapped it. Nash can't be relied on. When Kobe returns, will he even be able to keep up with the tempo MDA favors. More importantly, if the offense relies on PG probing, how long can we rely on an injury plagued Blake to keep us afloat.

This offense doesn't form good habits and isn't something you can build a future or titles on.

So in short, after I see about the 12th 3 ball flung up, I stop watching this offense.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby sister golden hair on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:26 pm

Vasashi17 wrote:I understand where you're coming from Doc...but here's a question I'm more interested in. Is it an offense worth running?

We went on a run last year, after we scrapped it. Nash can't be relied on. When Kobe returns, will he even be able to keep up with the tempo MDA favors. More importantly, if the offense relies on PG probing, how long can we rely on an injury plagued Blake to keep us afloat.

This offense doesn't form good habits and isn't something you can build a future or titles on.

So in short, after I see about the 12th 3 ball flung up, I stop watching this offense.


This.

MDA, for some strange reason, has very loyal defenders.

Some things simply can't be explained.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Doc Brown on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:29 pm

If it's getting W's, I really don't care what offense we are running. No one runs the triangle anymore, only bits and pieces of it.

Tell me a team that doesn't run horns, pick and roll, PG probing?

What offense should we be running right now? You seem to know what the championship offense is, so please explain what it is?
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Doc Brown on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:33 pm

sister golden hair wrote:
This.

MDA, for some strange reason, has very loyal defenders.

Some things simply can't be explained.


I call it like I see it. I know it's tough to handle, but so is life.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Helljumper on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:35 pm

Doc Brown wrote:Do you watch the offense?


sister golden hair wrote:
Vasashi17 wrote:I stop watching this offense.


This.


That explains it...
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Vasashi17 on Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:40 pm

Forcing players to play a "role" within an offense is probably an offense I'm not in favor of. I actually like motion offenses and roles that are interchangeable dictated off how its being defended. That is why the triangle worked.

But if we're strictly talking offense. I could get behind high %age quality shots, as opposed to increasing the frequency of shot attempts.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Lakerjones on Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:44 pm

As much as I dislike D' Antoni as coach of the Lakers, at this moment I'm fine with him. My gripes were earlier in the year when he was maddeningly stubborn about playing the two Steve's together in the starting lineup, as well as keeping Jordan Hill in the doghouse. The rotations for the early part of this season, especially with the starters were just horrendous. I disliked Johnson at the 4, hated Blake at the 2 and didn't like the lack of playing time for Hill.

But now, whether it was mainly Nash going down or what, I am glad to see Mike D actually going with lineups that feature players at their best and natural positions. Whew.

Thank heavens no more small ball lineups out there. Look how much better they look as a team.

Hill's at the 4, Blake's at the 1, Johnson at the 3. Meeks at the 2 with the starters has looked good too. With the players at the correct positions I like how our offense is running now. And better yet the defense and rebounding has improved dramatically with the starting unit since Nash went out, Blake moved to 1 and Hill and Johnson came in. Pau looks a lot better with those guys as well.

So props to D' Antoni for figuring it out, but boo to D' Antoni for taking a while to do it and being so reluctant to give Hill burn.

Now I hope things don't revert back to what they were when Nash comes back - if he comes back. I really wish he would retire so it isn't even an issue. I never want to see Steve Blake play the 2 again.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby Ras Algethi on Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:44 am

Vasashi17 wrote:
But if we're strictly talking offense. I could get behind high %age quality shots, as opposed to increasing the frequency of shot attempts.


Statistically Dantoni is right, we do go for high % shots. Layups/dunks, fts, and 3s are the best shots in terms of points per shot taking into account %. Shooting 40% from the 3 is the same as shooting 60% from the 2. I dont have a problem with taking a lot of 3s as long as they are good open 3s. This is also why long 2s are the worst shot in basketball, same pts as a layup/dunk but much lower %.

I dont fully agree with his full offensive system but he's a good offensive coach, he's not an idiot.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion

Postby wcsoldier81 on Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:55 am

I'm fine with MDA offense with the current roster .... running motion offenses required to have versatile offensive and high IQ players ... something we lack outside a washed up Pau and Blake ....

Truth is the talent available is poor , that's why we suck offensively
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