Mike D'Antoni Discussion: "I was an idiot..." (155)

Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby kenzo on Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:03 pm

There's no doubt that Phil>>>>>>>>>>Mike and that coaching is REALY important in basketball. But given all the injuries, inability to play D, being old and slow, i still say we're first round exit team, second round beingn our absolute best. Spurs, OKC, Mem, Den and Clipps are all hard to beat in a 7 game series.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Vasashi17 on Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:09 pm

Kenzo: I'm not saying that those teams aren't tough to beat under our current guise. I'm saying if you gave Phil this team and he was allowed to play out 70 games, control the rotations and evoke his philosophies, our personnel would be capable of much more than what you are are currently seeing.

Who knows, even our vets could have avoided certain injuries in the process.

But I can say this without any reservation....our team would be playing better defense.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby kenzo on Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:17 pm

^ We wouldn't be playing worse defense, that's for sure :man9:
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby karacha on Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:32 pm

Phil would miraculously heal everyone too! :jam2:
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby JSM on Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:55 pm

My thing with Phil having this roster vs. D"Antoni having this roster boils down to:

The pieces fit infinitely better with Phil. This team was constructed to run the triangle, only Jim is too damn stubborn and let egos get in the way and ultimately costing this team a championship (I believe). No, I'm not saying Phil could've prevented these injuries or we could've won this year. But I do think a season with these pieces and healthy, we could be a Finals contender. Instead we are practice dummies for contenders.

I don't think we would be a first round exit with Phil this year though. The greatest coach of all time is always capable of outcoaching the opposition. I don't have faith in MDA outcoaching anyone...ever. Not for a series, a game, a half, a quarter...hell not even a possession.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby khmrP on Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:06 pm

JSM wrote:My thing with Phil having this roster vs. D"Antoni having this roster boils down to:

The pieces fit infinitely better with Phil. This team was constructed to run the triangle, only Jim is too damn stubborn and let egos get in the way and ultimately costing this team a championship (I believe). No, I'm not saying Phil could've prevented these injuries or we could've won this year. But I do think a season with these pieces and healthy, we could be a Finals contender. Instead we are practice dummies for contenders.

I don't think we would be a first round exit with Phil this year though. The greatest coach of all time is always capable of outcoaching the opposition. I don't have faith in MDA outcoaching anyone...ever. Not for a series, a game, a half, a quarter...hell not even a possession.


Phil couldn't fix this defense either, you cant make up for old and slow.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Tobias Funke on Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:08 pm

Yep. For the record I rarely bring up Phil anymore in my posts, its usually someone defending MDA who says "Well Phil wouldnt have/ Phil didnt.......".

But anyway Phil didnt go shouting DEFENSE from the mountain tops, I never made that claim. But pretty much all of his teams were top 10 defensive teams, and despite what alot of people would like to think, that doesn't just happen. He was never Thibs, but he would get on you for being weak defensively the way Pringles does when you cant score (Fish was immune to this I must admit, but at the same time a guy like J-Hill wouldnt ride the pine under Phil the way he did under Pringles). Phil also put a crew in place to focus on defense to cover his bases. However he did it, he got the results, period.

Ive pretty much always said that when it comes to my problem with him on D, MDA either doesn't care or doesn't have the ability/means to get this team to play good defense. To put it in another light, I dont care how much of a priority D is for him, I care that we our D sucks and Pringles hasn't given me even a glimmer of hope that he can be a part of fixing that.

And besides, even with all things considered, even if you were guaranteed to be a first round exit this season with either Phil or Dantoni, which one would you rather be stuck with going forward to next year?

Defense aside, Phil blows him out of the water in every other category IMO. Some may strongly disagree, but Id take Phil's offensive philosophy over Pringles every single time, and as for other aspects including intangibles, I wont even go there.

As Finwe said, coaching in this league is ridiculously important, changes the entire mindset of this team. Simply saying that we'd be a guaranteed first round exit even with Phil is oversimplifying things. For one thing maybe, just maybe, Phil doesn't run this tight of a rotation and effectively play the older guys and the fellow coming off back surgery as if they were healthy 25yr olds.

I specified at the start that I wasnt the one to bring up Phil only because, even before this recent poor showing by Dantoni, it was always a losing game to compare him to Phil in any way at all. Id think the last thing anyone looking to defend him would do is mention Phil.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Tobias Funke on Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:15 pm

khmrP wrote:
Phil couldn't fix this defense either, you cant make up for old and slow.


Lazy way of thinking. Because your old and slow you have to be basically one of the worst defensive teams in the league? Makes no sense. No one is saying they should be elite, but they should be better than this.

If you're scoring over 100 and still getting beat by double digits, your defense could improve. If you score 120 and only win by 3 vs a team thats near the bottom of the league offensively, then your defense can improve.

And by the way, some of the past Spurs teams would probably show that being old doesn't have to mean poor defense.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby JSM on Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:16 pm

khmrP wrote:Phil couldn't fix this defense either, you cant make up for old and slow.

You can't make up for old and slow, but it actually can succeed when you run a half court offense and when you play inside out. Forcing senior citizens into playing a fast paced offense doesn't benefit anyone on our roster.

And I disagree. You'll get defensive improvement immediately from the change in offense. First, the players aren't as tired from running the offense so they have more energy to burn on D. Second, when you run a slower offense and don't preach an offense that supports running down the court and jacking up jumpers you don't give away nearly as many buckets in transition. When the team is so God awful in transition D, you simply don't try to magnify that fact by being a quick shooting (and missing) offense. It's coaching 101. MDA is doing exactly what the opposition wants us to do when players who struggle to hit long Js (most of the roster) hoists one up and the speedster guards on the other team gets up the court for the layup/dunk and there's only one Laker within 5 feet of him...and that's if we're lucky. That type of offense also makes life for our bigs way more difficult than it should be.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby borri on Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:22 pm

Tobias Funke wrote:
khmrP wrote:
Phil couldn't fix this defense either, you cant make up for old and slow.


Lazy way of thinking. Because your old and slow you have to be basically one of the worst defensive teams in the league? Makes no sense. No one is saying they should be elite, but they should be better than this.

If you're scoring over 100 and still getting beat by double digits, your defense could improve. If you score 120 and only win by 3 vs a team thats near the bottom of the league offensively, then your defense can improve.

And by the way, some of the past Spurs teams would probably show that being old doesn't have to mean poor defense.


Yes but, guys like Pau and Nash even when they weren't old.......were slow and couldn't guard anyone quick. They are old now......look at the results.....
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Tobias Funke on Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:36 pm

Well, there are poor individual defenders on good defensive teams that get plenty of playing time. I mean just look at the Bulls being able to play Boozer starter minutes and still be a great defensive team.

I still maintain this team in all its old-man glory, could be better defensively. Not elite or anything, but definitely should be better.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Vasashi17 on Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:48 pm

Wow, some of you guys are making some great points...but for it to make any sense in this thread, you have to make 3 points :man12:

1) Defense: D'Antoni can't coach it
2) Egos: D'Antoni can't manage it
3) Rotations: D'Antoni can't see big picture (cause he's always thinking small) and will run his players ragged...8 man rotation in December...WTF????
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Tobias Funke on Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:25 pm

^ So running an older roster (where the one young star is recovering from back surgery) as if they're all studs in their mid 20s isn't good coaching? Playing a guy with over 50K minutes logged in his career as many minutes as the younger stars of the league is careless?

Hmm. Interesting.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby khmrP on Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:28 pm

JSM wrote:
khmrP wrote:Phil couldn't fix this defense either, you cant make up for old and slow.

You can't make up for old and slow, but it actually can succeed when you run a half court offense and when you play inside out. Forcing senior citizens into playing a fast paced offense doesn't benefit anyone on our roster.

And I disagree. You'll get defensive improvement immediately from the change in offense. First, the players aren't as tired from running the offense so they have more energy to burn on D. Second, when you run a slower offense and don't preach an offense that supports running down the court and jacking up jumpers you don't give away nearly as many buckets in transition. When the team is so God awful in transition D, you simply don't try to magnify that fact by being a quick shooting (and missing) offense. It's coaching 101. MDA is doing exactly what the opposition wants us to do when players who struggle to hit long Js (most of the roster) hoists one up and the speedster guards on the other team gets up the court for the layup/dunk and there's only one Laker within 5 feet of him...and that's if we're lucky. That type of offense also makes life for our bigs way more difficult than it should be.


where was that successful D against dallas when we getting drilled in that series? and this team is only so much older to boot....more gambling, more dumb mistakes after dumb mistakes. I agree MDA blows but at the same time PJ isn't some miracle worker. He would only make this team so much better but end of day its not a good enough or great team to contend anyways, just to many flaws on this team.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Tobias Funke on Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:14 am

^ Dallas blitzed us for sure (along with every other team that year on their way to winning a title, its not like we got whooped by the Jazz or something that year), but either way the Lakers were still one of the top defensive teams in league that year.

Once again I haven't seen anyone saying that this team should be an elite defensive squad, but I think they certainly should be better than what we're seeing. As JSM said, that starts with implementing an appropriate philosophy on both sides of the ball, managing your players minutes better so that they have energy to finish etc.

Old doesn't always mean a team has to be horrible on D. Neither does having a poor individual defenders. Past Boston teams have proven this, same with San Antonio. The Mavs team that eventually won the title was right there with us as a top defensive team that season, and yet I think they were the oldest team in the league that year when you factored in the age of the players used most frequently (I think we were second).
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby wcsoldier81 on Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:35 am

Tobias Funke wrote:Well, there are poor individual defenders on good defensive teams that get plenty of playing time. I mean just look at the Bulls being able to play Boozer starter minutes and still be a great defensive team.

I still maintain this team in all its old-man glory, could be better defensively. Not elite or anything, but definitely should be better.


You definetely can hide 1 bad defender with great team defensive schemes.... several ? unlikely

Nash , Kobe , Pau ... all defensive liabilities ... MWP can't defend wings anymore ... he's now a terrific defender at the PF position but not at the 3 anymore ...

We are too slow and too old to defend in today's quick and athletic league ... it requires multiple effort to chase these guards around screens , help and recover ect ... something our players are just not capable of and don't have the stamina for ... they would be done physically after 20 games if they tried to play D for a coach like Thibodeau
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby wcsoldier81 on Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:39 am

wcsoldier81 wrote:
Tobias Funke wrote:Well, there are poor individual defenders on good defensive teams that get plenty of playing time. I mean just look at the Bulls being able to play Boozer starter minutes and still be a great defensive team.

I still maintain this team in all its old-man glory, could be better defensively. Not elite or anything, but definitely should be better.


You definetely can hide 1 bad defender with great team defensive schemes.... several ? unlikely

Nash , Kobe , Pau ... all defensive liabilities ... MWP can't defend wings anymore ... he's now a terrific defender at the PF position but not at the 3 anymore ...

We are too slow and too old to defend in today's quick and athletic league ... it requires multiple effort to chase these guards around screens , help and recover ect ... something our players are just not capable of and don't have the stamina for ... they would be done physically after 20 games if they tried to play D for a coach like Thibodeau.

Could we be better defensively with more discipline and suitable defensive schemes ? Sure , good enough to win a title ? Absolutely not


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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Tobias Funke on Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:49 am

I think you bring up a good first point, but a healthy Kobe and Ron can be noticeably better defensively in the right system, I believe that 100%. We can disagree on that, and thats fine. And also Pau was coming off the bench when we finally started playing a bit better (and most still think he should) as well. Its more than possible to limit the hit you take from weaker defenders with your lineup.

Ive already made my case multiple times just above about why being old and slow doesn't have to mean terrible defense, and I also said time and time again that no one is claiming that this team should/could be playing top level defense, just that they could be better.

San Antonio (doing it forever) and this Garnett-Era Boston team have had some older squads in some years and they've still been solid defensively. Neither team has always been packed with brilliant individual defensive players. Both teams feature big men who even as they've gotten older have managed to still be very effective defensive anchors and lead their teams to being solid defensively. Oh, and this is despite them getting a relatively great deal of rest in games.

We aren't coaching the team, so it doesn't matter what we say. But if thats the way the coach is seeing it as well (we're too old and slow and weak individually is to play defense) its a lazy way of thinking IMO. A better year long approach defensively could be the difference between having to fight for the 8th seed instead of maybe battling for a higher seed right now.

At this point its come down to just repeating myself though, which I actually hate doing lol.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby robKBMJ on Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:31 am

We may not be a championship material even if Phil coached this team but he would have made a ton more better decisions than D'umbtoni has all year. He would have known how to use Pao with a center like Dwight. He knows how to win with a slower, older team. He at last knew that it was time to limit Kobe's minutes to maximize his energy, especially that last season he coached him. At least 2nd round with Phil coaching.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby The Rock on Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:50 am

BTW for those asking about Fisher...he's 1 for his last 21 in field goals lol
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby DarthRekal on Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:10 am

GARBAGE
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby charvin on Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:14 am

That successful D showed up in the 2009 Finals. I re-watched the entire series for fun and the studio crew (Jon Barry, Magic, Stuart Scott, Mike Wilbon) all noted that for the Magic to win the series, they had to make their 3's. Well guess what, they didn't so we won. Same story for the 2011 series vs the Mavs, they drained their 3's at an incredible rate, we lost.

You can look at it in reverse, if the '09 Magic drained their 3's like the Mavs did, we might not have won that series. Regardless, PJ isn't a miracle worker, but he brings the intangibles and that is just as or more important than the measurables you can bring. The ability to manage egos and command respect is something D'Antoni can't do and is PJ's specialty.

At the end of the day, we don't know if this team still isn't good enough with PJ. Nothing to extrapolate from, different systems, different everything...

khmrP wrote:
JSM wrote:
khmrP wrote:Phil couldn't fix this defense either, you cant make up for old and slow.

You can't make up for old and slow, but it actually can succeed when you run a half court offense and when you play inside out. Forcing senior citizens into playing a fast paced offense doesn't benefit anyone on our roster.

And I disagree. You'll get defensive improvement immediately from the change in offense. First, the players aren't as tired from running the offense so they have more energy to burn on D. Second, when you run a slower offense and don't preach an offense that supports running down the court and jacking up jumpers you don't give away nearly as many buckets in transition. When the team is so God awful in transition D, you simply don't try to magnify that fact by being a quick shooting (and missing) offense. It's coaching 101. MDA is doing exactly what the opposition wants us to do when players who struggle to hit long Js (most of the roster) hoists one up and the speedster guards on the other team gets up the court for the layup/dunk and there's only one Laker within 5 feet of him...and that's if we're lucky. That type of offense also makes life for our bigs way more difficult than it should be.


where was that successful D against dallas when we getting drilled in that series? and this team is only so much older to boot....more gambling, more dumb mistakes after dumb mistakes. I agree MDA blows but at the same time PJ isn't some miracle worker. He would only make this team so much better but end of day its not a good enough or great team to contend anyways, just to many flaws on this team.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby bigdog2013 on Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:24 pm

It doesnt help that our wing players are old and slow and there is no defensive system. He needs to let Steve cliford and chuck person develop a defensive system
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby Chillbongo on Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:16 pm

borri wrote:1. Hill barely cracked PT when Antoni took over for Bernie.

2. Clark only played because Pau got injured and Howard wussed out those games. Now that Pau is back Clark barely plays. Jamison is in favor. Why? Offense. It's not like we our biggest problem is defense.............

3. There's nothing in Antoni's coaching history to make me think that he'll change. IF he stays, we will need players that FIT his system. Shooters, shooters, shooters. This is the same coach who keeps Meeks in the game DESPITE a huge mismatch on D. Why? He can supposedly shoot and stretch the floor.

4. While Clark and Hill are cheap talent, they are talent that can be used in a package for players that fit Antoni's system. Why keep talent that the coach won't play or barely plays when you can parlay them into something that the coach WILL play.

Based on that, IF Antoni stays he'll want players for his system. A stretch 4, a 3 who can shoot. And bench players who can score and shoot regardless of position. Antoni will trot out 5 SG's if they can score the bucket....defense be damned.

I frankly just don't see Antoni changing his ways.


People always forget that one. Clark was a fluke. Only because of injuries did we discover him. I don't think even Phil would've "discovered" Clark.

I'm fine with Jamison getting minutes because he's easy offense. Not only that but he moves without the basketball, gets boards, and NEVER takes ill-advised shots. His 3 ball is on point and makes quick decisions with the ball. Doesn't hold on to it or cause TO's. Also makes it easier for Kobe/Nash to reduce TO's with him in. Defense is another story.

D'Antoni won't change. For sure. Here's what the FO needs to ask themselves. If we keep D'Antoni and his system, Dwight is not our guy. The run and gun league we are now in doesn't really have true centers. Look at Miami and OKC. OKC has Perk but only for defensive purposes. He plays 20 something minutes a game. Ibaka could easily be their center and is their true anchor. He's mobile and athletic as s***.

Having Dwight slows down the game. So really, if we're keeping Dwight we shouldn't keep D'Antoni. It's like mixing oil and water. If we want to keep D'Antoni (which I think is a terrible idea), then get rid of Dwight.

D'Antoni is terrible at game management, rotations, and defense. And I don't think he's good at motivating players.
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Re: Mike D'Antoni Discussion: post in 7 seconds or less

Postby dj vitus on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:00 pm

"D'Antoni likes to play with a short rotation." -- Understatement of the year.
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