Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby JSM on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:46 am

Andy Kamenetzky of ESPN wrote:As expected, Lakers Media Day in El Segundo was a morning filled with wall-to-wall excitement. Excitement at the additions of Dwight Howard, Steve Nash and Antawn Jamison. Excitement at the team's legitimate depth. Excitement at the prospects of being among a handful of teams considered serious contenders for the 2013 championship.

But there was also excitement about the implementation of elements from the Princeton offense, a blueprint largely designed by new assistant coach Eddie Jordan. At the risk of stating the painfully obvious, the Lakers' offense left something to be desired last season. Obviously, extenuating circumstances -- the lockout, practices rarer than the sighting of a bald eagle, a lack of perimeter players beyond Kobe Bryant and, for a bit, Ramon Sessions -- accounted for some issues. But the Lakers weren't the only team negotiating those hurdles, so a trip to the drawing board was clearly in order. The Princeton should simultaneously add elements of structure and freedom, and as Mike Brown explained, it's a system he's always envisioned using under the right circumstances:

"I've always been fascinated with that offense ever since the days I was in Cleveland and it seemed like every year I was there we faced the Washington Wizards and Eddie Jordan in the first round. If you take away everybody's different abilities that they have in the NBA and how good or bad they are in those different aspects of the game offensively, and you turned everybody into robots or equated to being the same player, then I always felt that offense was the hardest to defend. The spacing is tremendous. The ball movement is tremendous. The ability to play a stress-free game was off the charts. So those things have always attracted me to it. I just never really had an understanding or the opportunity to implement it. Not only that, I never felt that Cleveland and I had the teams for it. You know, when you have a guy like LeBron (James), he's a pick and roll player. The same thing that Miami does for him down there, we did for him up in Cleveland. You try to play to your player's strengths.

"Here, after being with this team for a year, this is a very intelligent team, and they play very well when it comes to using a motion offense and using their intelligence."



Brown's right about his team's collective IQ being suitable for running the Princeton. Similarly, the high number of quality passers on this team makes for a nice match. Of course, it's also important to remember the Lakers won't be locked into this system in the strictest sense. As Brown explained in an August Q & A with BK and reiterated on Monday, the freedom to initiate pick-and-roll action will be afforded at the top of most possessions. Given the presences of Steve Nash as quarterback, Dwight Howard as a roller extraordinaire, and Kobe and Pau Gasol as excellent P/R weapons, not doing so would be silly. And whatever positive elements from last season's offense will be carried over. Phil Jackson's Lakers didn't run triangle on every sequence, and it wouldn't surprise me if Brown's Lakers were even looser with the Princeton. But it's always beneficial to have a system in your back pocket to center yourself during rough or sloppy stretches.



Plus, there's the benefit of familiarity. Jamison ran Jordan's offense during his days as a Wizard, so the sixth man's learning curve with his new team may be less steep. Metta World Peace is familiar with the principles, having run similar action with the Kings. Kobe and Pau can do motion offense in their sleep. And Steve Blake played under Jordan in D.C., so he has a good idea what the offense is about. Thus, he may not be able to participate in some of training camp due to a foot injury, but at least he'll have first-hand experience with what he's watching from the sideline.

As for Nash, this system will probably require some adjustments as a ball-dominant point guard, but his thoughts on the finished product and Princeton's ultimate purpose were quite optimistic.

"I think the new offense will be many things. I think it will give us an opportunity to space the floor. Give us an opportunity to have balance. Read and react off each other and make it difficult for the defense to make decisions and make it difficult for the defense to load up on any one or two players. I think that's an offense that can fit very well with our talent. It will allow us to hopefully have an understanding to where we're flowing instead of being regimented and predictable. It's a good opportunity for us to really build something together.

Below are more videos from Jamison and Blake discussing the Princeton.



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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby revgen on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:51 am

Mike Brown was excited about running the "San Antonio offense" last season too. While I do have higher hopes this season, especially with the additions to the coaching staff, it's all talk until it's proven on the floor.
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby therealdeal on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:58 am

"Here, after being with this team for a year, this is a very intelligent team, and they play very well when it comes to using a motion offense and using their intelligence."

My favorite part of this report. Right after he finished talking about how he didn't have the pieces in Cleveland to run the Princeton... Basically he didn't have a smart enough team over there. He says "LeBron is more of a pick and roll player, you need to use his strength there." But so is Nash, so really what he's saying is "LeBron and those Cavs just weren't smart enough to run the Princeton the way these Lakers can and will."

Awesome.

But besides that, I'm glad to read everyone is buying in. I'm of the mind that the Princeton isn't going to be a staple, just a safety net to help guys when the offense isn't clicking. Kind of like the Triangle, it'll be used when we need it. I love that idea and I think it's going to help us a lot going forward.
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby JGC on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:34 pm

With all the fanfare about D12 and Nash, I completely forgot momentarily that we have Antawn freakin Jamison. Awesome.
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby Lakerjones on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:11 am

Anything, and I mean ANYTHING is better than the offense I saw last year. It was embarrassing as a Lakers fan to have to put up with that complete garbage. You'd have to go back to 2005 for a more unwatchable version of the Lakers offense, IMO.

Like therealdeal said, I'm fine with Princeton offense as long as they don't always feel compelled to stick to it. Basically you have the best pick and roll guard playing alongside two of the best pick and roll big men you could ever ask for it. I would run that into the ground until someone showed they could stop it. The elephant in the room might be Kobe and how he's going to get touches if that's the case, but Kobe and Pau pick and roll is also excellent as I would imagine Kobe and Dwight Howard would be as well!! In addition of course you can just have Nash probe and find guys like Kobe, Artest and Pau rolling to the hoop off ball.

Everything becomes much simpler when you have someone like Nash on board. You can run anything you like basically, and even better just leave it up to the players. You have guys who know how to play. I'd love to see more of that off ball movement Kobe experimented with last year a little. When you have guys like Howard, Pau and Artest to set screens for Kobe and a guy like Nash to hit him with the rock in catch and shoot position? Oh my. It's just absurd.

I hope that most of the time they don't try to get too complicated with the Princeton. These guys are like an All Star team as a starting lineup. You have so much IQ, so much experience, so much talent and the pieces all fit. Just let 'em play.
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby JSM on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:29 am

Lakerjones wrote: I'm fine with Princeton offense as long as they don't always feel compelled to stick to it. Basically you have the best pick and roll guard playing alongside two of the best pick and roll big men you could ever ask for it. I would run that into the ground until someone showed they could stop it. The elephant in the room might be Kobe and how he's going to get touches if that's the case, but Kobe and Pau pick and roll is also excellent as I would imagine Kobe and Dwight Howard would be as well!! In addition of course you can just have Nash probe and find guys like Kobe, Artest and Pau rolling to the hoop off ball.

Everything becomes much simpler when you have someone like Nash on board. You can run anything you like basically, and even better just leave it up to the players. You have guys who know how to play. I'd love to see more of that off ball movement Kobe experimented with last year a little. When you have guys like Howard, Pau and Artest to set screens for Kobe and a guy like Nash to hit him with the rock in catch and shoot position? Oh my. It's just absurd.

I hope that most of the time they don't try to get too complicated with the Princeton. These guys are like an All Star team as a starting lineup. You have so much IQ, so much experience, so much talent and the pieces all fit. Just let 'em play.

After reading the Q&A with Jordan, he made it clear that the primary offense will be Nash pushing the ball, reading the D, and reacting. If he doesn't see anything, then they'll fall into the offense.

Here's that thread:
lakers-discussion/lal-camp-eddie-jordan-t135889.html
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby Lakerjones on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:47 am

JSM wrote:
Lakerjones wrote: I'm fine with Princeton offense as long as they don't always feel compelled to stick to it. Basically you have the best pick and roll guard playing alongside two of the best pick and roll big men you could ever ask for it. I would run that into the ground until someone showed they could stop it. The elephant in the room might be Kobe and how he's going to get touches if that's the case, but Kobe and Pau pick and roll is also excellent as I would imagine Kobe and Dwight Howard would be as well!! In addition of course you can just have Nash probe and find guys like Kobe, Artest and Pau rolling to the hoop off ball.

Everything becomes much simpler when you have someone like Nash on board. You can run anything you like basically, and even better just leave it up to the players. You have guys who know how to play. I'd love to see more of that off ball movement Kobe experimented with last year a little. When you have guys like Howard, Pau and Artest to set screens for Kobe and a guy like Nash to hit him with the rock in catch and shoot position? Oh my. It's just absurd.

I hope that most of the time they don't try to get too complicated with the Princeton. These guys are like an All Star team as a starting lineup. You have so much IQ, so much experience, so much talent and the pieces all fit. Just let 'em play.

After reading the Q&A with Jordan, he made it clear that the primary offense will be Nash pushing the ball, reading the D, and reacting. If he doesn't see anything, then they'll fall into the offense.

Here's that thread:
lakers-discussion/lal-camp-eddie-jordan-t135889.html


Thanks for pointing out this article, and thanks to Battletested for posting it originally. It's a GREAT read! I like that he said there might be 100 things you can do with the Princeton set but they may only use 10 - no need to fix it if ain't broke, in other words. If they can't stop one aspect they'll keep going to it.

I also love the subtle jab at Bernie's age - "Back when basketball was invented by James Naismith and Bernie Bickerstaff" :man10: :man10: :man10: . That was pretty damn hilarious.

It's phenomenal to have Eddie Jordan on staff who is a good head coach in his own right, not to mention old man Bernie.

One thing I don't love is that they keep downplaying the pick and roll - but that's all right they can say whatever they want right now. On the court though I do think a steady diet of pick and roll should be happening because I want to see a team try to stop it.
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby therealdeal on Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:09 am

^ LJ I think you're off on this one.

No one is talking down the pick and roll at all. That's going to be option #1. How is that talking down the pick and roll? Nash's first choice is P&R and I was excited to read that Orlando used a form of the Princeton with their high screen/roll with Dwight. That high screen/roll is going to work beautifully here. Howard pick for Nash, Nash either drops to Howard or hits Kobe on the opposite wing. Kobe is either wide open or Dwight gets a lob.

Bang. That's going to be bread and butter.
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby Lakerjones on Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:39 am

therealdeal wrote:^ LJ I think you're off on this one.

No one is talking down the pick and roll at all. That's going to be option #1. How is that talking down the pick and roll? Nash's first choice is P&R and I was excited to read that Orlando used a form of the Princeton with their high screen/roll with Dwight. That high screen/roll is going to work beautifully here. Howard pick for Nash, Nash either drops to Howard or hits Kobe on the opposite wing. Kobe is either wide open or Dwight gets a lob.

Bang. That's going to be bread and butter.


Realdeal, from what they are saying it just seems to me that they are downplaying it a bit. Example:

"We don’t want to be in the offense at first, we want to get a stop, a rebound, an outlet and get an easy shot in early offense. We want the ball to be pushed at high tempo at Steve’s discretion. If we can’t get anything from there, that’s where you can flow into the Princeton. Read the defense and deliver the play. Steve will be the catalyst. And Steve will get perimeter shots not just off pick and rolls, but off flares, dribble hand offs and coming off screens."

Notice "not just off pick and rolls."

Also:

"That’s why you don’t want to only run pick and rolls, because you want a more balanced offense, and you get better chemistry when everyone is a part of the success. And that makes them play harder on D."

I'm not disagreeing with anything Eddie is saying, I just see that they are making it a point in the discussion to downplay the pick and roll with Nash somewhat and obviously that's what the implementation of the Princeton offense is there for - to ensure more equal opportunity scoring throughout the team.

Of course he also said he is tweaking the system to play to Nash's strength as a pick and roll PG.

Look, it's all fine, as I said, I don't really care that much what system it is - they need something in place. But when it comes down to game time I do want to see what you are talking about - a steady diet of P and R and pick and pop with Nash and Pau and Howard, and Kobe and Pau and Howard. I think we'll get that. And I think they will be loose enough with Nash hopefully to allow him to do what he does best.
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby jlkr on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:19 am

A lot of pick and roll action will feature Kobe on the weak side to take advantage of the help defense deployed against a Nash-Howard or a Nash-Gasol combo. Nash (and Gasol) will know how to force defenses into picking their poison. Kobe should get a fair number of excellent shots from short midrange to the rim out of that.

One play as mentioned above, start off with a high screen and roll with Nash and Howard. MWP in the corner (and could cut to the rim from there), Nash floats off to his favorite spot on the arc and Kobe ready to catch and shoot/drive/pass.

Yes I see Kobe with fewer shots, but he should be much more efficient than last year so his PPG shouldn't drop that much. So I don't believe anyone needs to worry about Kobe's touches.
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby therealdeal on Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:24 pm

LJ

Yeah, I just honestly am not that concerned about it. I know you've been down on the Princeton from the start, but it's really necessary for this team. Running the set offense from last season was disastrous and awful. We need something with predicated movement. That doesn't mean NOT running the pick and roll, just that when the pick and roll is happening, there's off the ball movement for Nash to use.

I think you're going to be very happy with the offense and with Steve Nash at the helm, I don't have any concerns at all in that department.
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby Lakerjones on Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:29 pm

^^ Oh definitely, realdeal. I'm overjoyed first and foremost to have Steve Nash who I think could run any kind of offense anyone wanted and it would be fantastic.

Actually Steve Nash is the main reason I'm not THAT excited about the Princeton set per se. It's a system that takes the ball out of the hands of the point guard somewhat, not totally unlike the Triangle and stresses multiple reads and passes.

I'm not down on the Princeton offense itself at all, and as I said, I am thrilled that we have some form of offensive system that is being run by someone other than Mike Brown. That's the biggest thing. So I'm thrilled there's anything in place as opposed to last year's chaos and disorder on that end.

I guess for me the Princeton offense and Eddie Jordan were brought in to fix some things from last year, namely the issue of better utilizing Pau and Bynum at the same time and still allowing Kobe to get his.

But then things changed overnight in that we got Steve Nash - one of the best ball dominant PG's the league has ever seen.

On top of that we subbed in Dwight at 5 for Bynum, two different kinds of players on the offense. That substitution was a perfect fit for our team in that Bynum was strictly a low post player for us. I don't think he had a whole lot of experience with pick and roll and it was going to be a learning curve there for him.

Dwight on the other hand is basically the most powerful pick and roll big in the league. And now he has a guy like Nash to run it with him? It's over. I don't see who in the world is going to be able to contain that.

That should be play number one. Forget reading defenses and Pau Gasol running over to the corner three. Nash and Dwight pick and roll should be staple. Also Nash and Gasol pick and roll or pick and pop. Like Jlkr mentioned let's see someone try to stop that and then you've got Kobe cutting or standing open somewhere for the mid-range or long range jumper. Same with Artest.

It's pick your poison time and it's going to suck a great deal for the other team.

I guess my issue is that Coaches can get overly stuck on systems and theory. I don't think Eddie Jordan will necessarily - he's a good coach. But that's my only concern. I'm more thrilled about the pick and roll opportunities than I am the system. To me the system was a way to try to fix some problems that are no longer there. You are going to have great ball movement now because you have Nash. You don't necessarily need the type of intensely motion heavy offense when you have a guy like Nash. You also now have the two premiere pick and roll bigs to match up with your best pick and roll PG in the league. That's just sick. That's all. I want to see lots and lots and lots of it. I could kind of take or leave much of the busy off ball movement.

The great news is as you pointed out Jordan already mentioned the high pick and roll Orlando ran with D12 and that if something is working they'll stick with it. They don't plan to go away from it if it can't be stopped. I'm totally with that.

Mainly I just want to see some good old basketball plays. I don't need to see a bunch of complicated back door screens. Just regular picks for our guys with Nash handling the ball is excitement enough for me! :jam2:
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby therealdeal on Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:15 pm

I understand completely where you're coming from LJ and I'm with you. When Nash is on the floor, the offense should be simplified and run through him. But he won't always be on the floor which is where I find value in the Princeton.

I think Nash will definitely focus on the pick and roll, that's where he's at his best and at his most comfortable, but we'll also use the Princeton for our other players. When Nash isn't on the floor, the Princeton is going to help make the team way more effective.

Also remember Nash came here so that he wouldn't have to do everything and I feel like the Princeton Hybrid helps there too. Sometimes Nash will be able to take a play off from ball-handling and he can stay more fresh that way.
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby Lakerjones on Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:15 pm

^^ Great points realdeal. I definitely agree with everything you posted here, especially about the bench running the Princeton when Nash is out. That's going to be a very good thing. Especially since Blake and Jamison have run it before under Jordan. And yeah, Nash getting a break while on the court is nice as well given that either guard can initiate the Princeton offense and others will see the ball more for passing opportunities.

Bottom line is we fixed the most glaring offensive problems last year with a few moves. First, the personnel is a world's better fit. Gasol and Howard should work better together than Pau/Bynum and shouldn't be as much in each other's way. Nash, of course is a HUGE upgrade over Fisher, Blake or Sessions. Monstrous actually. Nash is the best pure PG we've had since Magic. He's also Mike Brown- proof. He's going to run the offense as well as anyone can ever hope. On top of the personnel change we've got the coaching change with Eddie Jordan calling the offensive shots. That's another huge upgrade.

We're looking good! :jam2:

Now let's just not forget to play to our strengths and we'll be in great shape.
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby JSM on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:43 pm

^ To piggyback on the above discussion a little...I think they'll be a very healthy dose of the P&R/P&P, I see no possibly way for it to be ignored. If Nash gets to QB the offense before setting in the offense, he'll often dive into a P&R play either out of habit, comfort, or knowing it's our best play against the opponent most night.

I agree, I think this will really help the bench too and prevent them running around like chickens with the head cut off, like they did last season. Having real talent and an actual pecking order starting with Jamison, followed by Meeks will do wonders, too. I think Blake really needs that sense of structure and it helps this is a structure he is familiar with (ditto for Jamison). Nash needs to sit for 16 minutes a night...hopefully more some nights, so whatever can be done to maximize Blake and allow that to happen, I'm all for.

Not to mention if we didn't bring in a new system -- like the Princeton offense -- then we wouldn't have bulked up our coaching staff to the degree which we did. Anything that lessens the role of Mike Brown on this club is a huge plus. Jordan is a quality hire, even if he was teaching an offense we'd never use, I'd still be all for it just for everything else he brings to the club. And he's just one chair away from being head coach...same goes for Bernie.
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby kenzo on Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:53 pm

Either way, we're set :jam2: Whether it's P&R with Dwight, or P&P with Pau/Jamison, result is the same -> MONEY :jam2:
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby therealdeal on Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:47 am

True. :man10:

What a great problem to have... "Oh we should dominate with the pick and roll" "Really? because I think we should dominate through a system offense."

How many other teams can have anything like this conversation. Think about Miami or Oklahoma City and their "let's just run fast" offense. Or Boston and their pick-pick-pick-and-pop offense. We'ev got so many weapons and opportunities... This is going to be an amazing season.
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby Lakerjones on Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:48 am

JSM wrote:^ To piggyback on the above discussion a little...I think they'll be a very healthy dose of the P&R/P&P, I see no possibly way for it to be ignored. If Nash gets to QB the offense before setting in the offense, he'll often dive into a P&R play either out of habit, comfort, or knowing it's our best play against the opponent most night.

I agree, I think this will really help the bench too and prevent them running around like chickens with the head cut off, like they did last season. Having real talent and an actual pecking order starting with Jamison, followed by Meeks will do wonders, too. I think Blake really needs that sense of structure and it helps this is a structure he is familiar with (ditto for Jamison). Nash needs to sit for 16 minutes a night...hopefully more some nights, so whatever can be done to maximize Blake and allow that to happen, I'm all for.

Not to mention if we didn't bring in a new system -- like the Princeton offense -- then we wouldn't have bulked up our coaching staff to the degree which we did. Anything that lessens the role of Mike Brown on this club is a huge plus. Jordan is a quality hire, even if he was teaching an offense we'd never use, I'd still be all for it just for everything else he brings to the club. And he's just one chair away from being head coach...same goes for Bernie.


^^ Totally agree JSM. Just the fact that we HAVE an offensive system is a huge plus and an enormous upgrade over last year. And it will really come in handy as you and realdeal mentioned for the bench. And yes, nice to have a quality coach like Eddie Jordan involved and Bernie, either of whom can just take over if Brown fails this year.
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby Lakerjones on Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:52 am

therealdeal wrote:True. :man10:

What a great problem to have... "Oh we should dominate with the pick and roll" "Really? because I think we should dominate through a system offense."

How many other teams can have anything like this conversation. Think about Miami or Oklahoma City and their "let's just run fast" offense. Or Boston and their pick-pick-pick-and-pop offense. We'ev got so many weapons and opportunities... This is going to be an amazing season.


^^ Absolutely!! You know it's just insane how spoiled we are as Laker fans when I can come in here and complain about focusing on aspects of the Princeton offense, a great system, over pick and roll and pick and pop with Nash and Howard or Nash and Gasol. :man10:

What an insane team Mitch and the Buss family has assembled for us! If we can watch the games we'll be so happy. :jam2:
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby therealdeal on Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:28 am

It's just really shocking thinking about how far we've come since last season... I mean you and I and a lot of seasoned posters were here cheering on this team, but the feel was so... desolate. Compare last season to 2009 or 2010 or now 2013 and it's just different.

This team feels electric again. I have a great feeling heading into the season and if our guys can stay healthy I don't think there's a team in the world that could beat us.
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Re: Mike Brown, Lakers excited about Princeton offense

Postby Peace on Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:54 pm

These videos go over the basics of a read and react offense. It might not be exactly the Princeton offense but I still think they're pretty good.

More Videos http://www.youtube.com/user/readandreacttribe/videos?view=0



Link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xAzANFC74c&feature=related
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