[New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby lakerzkb8 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:17 am

He raises a good point. Something tells me theirs a disconnect in the lockeroom. Kobe publically saying for Pau to grow a pair that has to sting. its obvious Dwight and Kobe are not on the same page completely. Theres a reason why teams get better when they're together for a while more often then not. People hated on Derek Fisher or Lamar Odom on their way out, but both of em had a lot of heart and that stuff makes a difference in the lockeroom. You need those pep talks. You need guys telling you and saying hey good job sometimes. Theres just no chemistry on this team. Everyone just seems to be focused on themselves. Kobes never really been a lockeroom leader, he just leads by example. Paus so focused on his reputation that it gets to him sometimes, and his comments about not being okay coming off the bench just isnt professional and helping the team. D'antoni with his empty promises. Dwight complaining about lack of touches as if his offense would change our record drastically. The list goes on. How can you have synergy on a team when your complaining constantly, pointing fingers, talking too much to the media, etc. Attitude is everything, and I just dont get the sense that the guys are determined to turn this season around.

Going to say something random, but these guys need to maybe work on being friends and just having some fun again. The effort will go up with a sense of camaraderie. Go out together. Joke around. Have each others backs. Build that trust. You can see how tight those championship teams were in 09-10. Kobe, LO, Derek, Sasha and the machine talk, DJ mbenga, farmar, etc. This roster honestly was totally revamped with new coaching AND an enormous amount of expectation. Those role/bench players, even second options just werent ready to play, and its snowballed into this hole that they cant get out of. They need to get out of it together as one. Sacrifce and hardwork will turn this season around. More of the same, or little adjustments wont do anything. The team needs to change completely, if that means kobes stats going down, or pau coming off the bench, or D'Antoni drawing up some post plays for Dwight/Pau, etc etc. The things need to change top to the bottom.
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby robKBMJ on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:02 am

We need Coach Boone to get these guys to bond.
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby MC on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:25 am

Lakerjones wrote:You know the annoying thing though. The Lakers haven't struggled since Day One. Yes, they struggled under Brown and D' Antoni. But they DIDN'T struggle at all under Bernie. They played loose and they actually had some fun. It was good basketball. He substituted at the appropriate times in a rational manner. He didn't have to go through a million lineup changes like D' Antoni is. The bigs actually played well together while Bernie was interim HC. Bad coaching, inflexible coaching is what we've seen before and after. It's all pretty straight forward actually.


bingo!

and that can be extended to the front office too..... bad moves coaching wise and inflexible even in the face of reason.
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby abeer3 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:42 am

mitch is dead on. the real problem is that the team doesn't play hard or together. a trade for a second-tier player while retaining the core won't fix that. they either fix it internally or you have to remove just about everybody. and yes, that means another coach, too.
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:39 am

"It's not like we don't have a player at a certain position and if we added a player -- an eighth guy or a ninth guy -- all of the sudden our record is going to go from 17 and whatever it is to 30-11. That's not going to happen by adding a bench shooter or a defensive player. You know what I mean? That's not going to happen. We're underachieving for other reasons, not because we're missing a bench player. Certainly you can add a bench player and become a better team, or hopefully a better team, but that's not the reason why our record is what it is. We should be better than our record says we are. But there's a saying in this league, and I'm sure you've heard this saying, 'You are what your record says you are.'


This piece has be shaking my head at the FO. Would we be 30-11 with a better bench, who knows, but we definitely wouldn't be where we are at right now.

We have no backup PG, no backup SG, no backup SF, no backup PF, and our backup center is Pau.

We literally get no production from 1-4, unless Jamison has a good game shooting.

When we are running a 6-7 man rotation with the group of guys we have, we are going to get our teeth kicked in, more times than not.

We wouldn't be top 3, but we wouldn't be out of the playoff picture either, if we had a bench.

When is the last time Duhon scored? Morris? Meeks? When is the last time any of them made a defensive play?
Can't talk about our backup SF because we don't have one
Jamison scores, but does little else, same with Pau.

He's talking about an 8th or 9th guy helping out, we are lucky if we get that from 5-7.
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:34 am

abeer3 wrote:mitch is dead on. the real problem is that the team doesn't play hard or together. a trade for a second-tier player while retaining the core won't fix that. they either fix it internally or you have to remove just about everybody. and yes, that means another coach, too.


A trade for 2 or 3 second tier player may fix it..... it the offending party is shipped out in the process.

This team has too many players that have had long careers of being the primary focus of the team they are on either offensively or defensively and that is our biggest problem IMO. It's manifesting itself in poor effort and lack of cohesion but I believe it's rooted in "too many Alpha's".

Moving and playing without the ball is not natural to Howard, Kobe, Pau or Nash. They all have been the one with the ball finding the others moving in their career. That's why we are seeing so much standing around IMO. There is system issues but there is a pretty big issue in that the players themselves are not complementary to one another.
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby phoenixrisingla on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:59 am

What else is he going to say 31 games in to hiring the guy to a 4 year contract.

"Part of the frustrating thing about this season to date is that I just can't, or we just can't, put our finger on the problem," Kupchak said.


Really? REALLY??

The most frustrating part for me personally is that the things that are happening to this team are things that have happened to D'Antoni's teams through his entire career and management (and some on this board :mhihi: ) just put their fingers in their ears and scream buzzwords like "effort", "injury", and "chemistry".
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby Lakerjones on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:26 am

phoenixrisingla wrote:What else is he going to say 31 games in to hiring the guy to a 4 year contract.

"Part of the frustrating thing about this season to date is that I just can't, or we just can't, put our finger on the problem," Kupchak said.


Really? REALLY??

The most frustrating part for me personally is that the things that are happening to this team are things that have happened to D'Antoni's teams [b]through his entire career[/b] and management (and some on this board :mhihi: ) just put their fingers in their ears and scream buzzwords like "effort", "injury", and "chemistry".


^^ Sadly true and the most damning thing is that it happened most publicly LAST SEASON. Not like this is some long ago history. He flamed out and lost the team in New York just last season. Why did they think he'd magically turn things around here?
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby therealdeal on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:36 am

Rooscooter wrote:Moving and playing without the ball is not natural to Howard, Kobe, Pau or Nash. They all have been the one with the ball finding the others moving in their career. That's why we are seeing so much standing around IMO. There is system issues but there is a pretty big issue in that the players themselves are not complementary to one another.

I know what you're saying, but I just hate it because it doesn't HAVE to be true. If these guys would just shut the f*** up and swallow some pride, they actually fit REALLY well together.

I think Nash might be the only one that's not only sacrificing his role but EMBRACING it too.

Kobe is still holding the ball for too long on most nights.
Dwight isn't giving his best effort because he's not the focus down low.
Gasol is changing his game, but doing it half-heartedly and thus without results.

And yet if Kobe passed the ball more smoothly, Dwight might get more shot attempts.
And if Dwight gets more shot attempts, he'll be more willing to cover the defensive end.
And if Dwight is more willing to cover the defensive end we hide a lot of our defensive deficencies.

The ace out of course is still Pau in my book. Pau needs to go now and D'Antoni will be gone this summer if we want to keep Howard (a growing if and this point).
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby charvin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:37 am

Hey look! D'Antoni is willing to try different roster combinations
...
...
...
Flexible!
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby Lakerjones on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:40 am

therealdeal wrote:
The ace out of course is still Pau in my book. Pau needs to go now and D'Antoni will be gone this summer if we want to keep Howard (a growing if and this point).


^^ For me, I'd like to see that in reverse order - fire D' Antoni now and move Pau in the summer when he actually has some value.

I'd rather quell the locker room/system issue now otherwise I think it will be too late to retain Howard. I think this is coming to too much of a boil right now.

Howard was happy playing under Bernie and even several games ago I saw him going over and fist bumping Bernie. They seem to have a good rapport.

This thing is going nowhere right now with D' Antoni at the helm. Nowhere.
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby phoenixrisingla on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:41 am

charvin wrote:Hey look! D'Antoni is willing to try different roster combinations
...
...
...
Flexible!


That part blew my mind.

I guess that being unwilling to change anything about your offensive system and just throwing out various and unpredictable player combinations hoping something will "click", means he is flexible.

:bang:
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby therealdeal on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:44 am

Lakerjones wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
The ace out of course is still Pau in my book. Pau needs to go now and D'Antoni will be gone this summer if we want to keep Howard (a growing if and this point).


^^ For me, I'd like to see that in reverse order - fire D' Antoni now and move Pau in the summer when he actually has some value.

I'd rather quell the locker room/system issue now otherwise I think it will be too late to retain Howard. I think this is coming to too much of a boil right now.

Howard was happy playing under Bernie and even several games ago I saw him going over and fist bumping Bernie. They seem to have a good rapport.

This thing is going nowhere right now with D' Antoni at the helm. Nowhere.

I don't disagree I just think the Lakers won't do it... Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see the Lakers swallowing that much pride.

And we're both wrong... I think the best course of action would be letting go of D'Antoni now AND trading Gasol now.
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby Lakerjones on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:56 am

therealdeal wrote:
Lakerjones wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
The ace out of course is still Pau in my book. Pau needs to go now and D'Antoni will be gone this summer if we want to keep Howard (a growing if and this point).


^^ For me, I'd like to see that in reverse order - fire D' Antoni now and move Pau in the summer when he actually has some value.

I'd rather quell the locker room/system issue now otherwise I think it will be too late to retain Howard. I think this is coming to too much of a boil right now.

Howard was happy playing under Bernie and even several games ago I saw him going over and fist bumping Bernie. They seem to have a good rapport.

This thing is going nowhere right now with D' Antoni at the helm. Nowhere.

I don't disagree I just think the Lakers won't do it... Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see the Lakers swallowing that much pride.

And we're both wrong... I think the best course of action would be letting go of D'Antoni now AND trading Gasol now.


Yeah, it's a bitter pill to swallow. They were straight out wrong in this coaching hire, just like the last one. But the last one was more tolerable because they made the playoffs and even gave OKC a fight in that second round.
Mike Brown might have been in over his head, but he wasn't a jerk. He was a nice guy. Just didn't command the respect and had no clue on offense or rotations.

But this thing with D' Antoni has reached a head. He had these EXACT same kind of failures with personnel in New York. This hire was so misguided it's mind boggling. On top of it, the guy has a prickly, defensive personality that doesn't exactly endear him to players or fans.

It's not working out. And to lose Howard over this potentially could be catastrophic. I mean that. Want to kiss the 2014 plan goodbye? The way this is going down could scare off other players. In fact I would bet on it. Look at the way this organization is being run. It's embarrassing. You piss off Phil Jackson, the best coach of all time. You piss off the fans. And then you piss off Dwight. Great year thus far.
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:14 am

Lakerjones wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
Lakerjones wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
The ace out of course is still Pau in my book. Pau needs to go now and D'Antoni will be gone this summer if we want to keep Howard (a growing if and this point).


^^ For me, I'd like to see that in reverse order - fire D' Antoni now and move Pau in the summer when he actually has some value.

I'd rather quell the locker room/system issue now otherwise I think it will be too late to retain Howard. I think this is coming to too much of a boil right now.

Howard was happy playing under Bernie and even several games ago I saw him going over and fist bumping Bernie. They seem to have a good rapport.

This thing is going nowhere right now with D' Antoni at the helm. Nowhere.

I don't disagree I just think the Lakers won't do it... Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see the Lakers swallowing that much pride.

And we're both wrong... I think the best course of action would be letting go of D'Antoni now AND trading Gasol now.


Yeah, it's a bitter pill to swallow. They were straight out wrong in this coaching hire, just like the last one. But the last one was more tolerable because they made the playoffs and even gave OKC a fight in that second round.
Mike Brown might have been in over his head, but he wasn't a jerk. He was a nice guy. Just didn't command the respect and had no clue on offense or rotations.

But this thing with D' Antoni has reached a head. He had these EXACT same kind of failures with personnel in New York. This hire was so misguided it's mind boggling. On top of it, the guy has a prickly, defensive personality that doesn't exactly endear him to players or fans.

It's not working out. And to lose Howard over this potentially could be catastrophic. I mean that. Want to kiss the 2014 plan goodbye? The way this is going down could scare off other players. In fact I would bet on it. Look at the way this organization is being run. It's embarrassing. You piss off Phil Jackson, the best coach of all time. You piss off the fans. And then you piss off Dwight. Great year thus far.


We don't have to kiss the 2014 plan goodbye. Free agents will always be attracted to come here because we are the Lakers. Sure, the argument can be made that these last two years hasn't lived up too expectations with the coaches, players, etc.

Nevertheless, throughout the course of our rich and propserous history, we have always overcame adversity and this will be no different. It's sucked this year and at times like this it's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I, for one, have no doubt we will be fine and continue winning.

As for Dwight, I'm in the minority, but I have my doubts about building around him. If he skips town, that's his decision and beyond our control. He hasn't shown no effort at times & I believe mentally checked out. He has a very limited offensive game and his athleticism has hid his poor fundamentals.

I don't want Dwight leading this franchise for the next 5-10 years. We need an option 1A if he does re-sign. Maybe a Kyrie or somebody to come along that we can run the offense through when the game gets close, because we know that Dwight can't hit free-throws.
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby khmrP on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:16 am

if Mitch thinks its only "effort" then its pretty evident by now nothing is changing so season is lost, probably why "bother making changes mentality" now
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby charvin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:50 am

Of all the coaches, I woulda thought Popovich was the least flexible because of his "old-school" approach. He was open to being flexible when he noticed and received feedback, that maybe sometimes his half-court offense wasn't working and that with guys like Parker, Ginobli, and company, they could go out and run for some easy points.

That is flexibility - the willingness to change (even if it's just a little) to modify his offensive philosophy to fit the current personnel.

phoenixrisingla wrote:That part blew my mind.

I guess that being unwilling to change anything about your offensive system and just throwing out various and unpredictable player combinations hoping something will "click", means he is flexible.

:bang:
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:03 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Moving and playing without the ball is not natural to Howard, Kobe, Pau or Nash. They all have been the one with the ball finding the others moving in their career. That's why we are seeing so much standing around IMO. There is system issues but there is a pretty big issue in that the players themselves are not complementary to one another.

I know what you're saying, but I just hate it because it doesn't HAVE to be true. If these guys would just shut the f*** up and swallow some pride, they actually fit REALLY well together.


Not only have these guys been conditioned into being the center of their respective teams at this level.... they have been this way since they started playing the game I'd bet. While it may be easy for us or a coach to want them to "change their stripes" so to speak it's entirely another thing to do it under fire in a game where each one of them think that their contributions are what is needed.

Pro Sports is littered with so called "Super Teams" that fail to achieve. What we are seeing is not new.

The two that we have that are most likely to adapt and have adapted to some degree are MWP and Pau. Kobe isn't ever going to change IMO... he will retire first and I don't have a problem with that.

Howard has two issues it seems. First he doesn't seem willing to try and he may not have the ability to because his game is very limited beyond the things hi's world class at. Blending him into a system that isn't focused directly on him seems impossible.

Pau has tried to adapt and has done a decent job of it at times. IMO his bigger issues are ones of declining ability and passiveness. The trade last year has gutted what was left of his desire to be here IMO.

It's becoming apparent that this version of the Lakers isn't going anywhere. I'm sure management sees it even though the comments seem contrary. I'd expect Pau to be traded by the Draft at the latest. Until this week I would have thought it hard to believe that Howard wouldn't be here long term but that seems a lot less of a sure thing now.

If they can turn it around and make a run at the playoffs this might all go away for a while, but I still think we will see some major changes before next year rolls around.
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby charvin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:10 pm

Roo - Unfortunately, that list grows. From this article 2 days ago http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/la-sp-lakers-fyi-20130122,0,4768115.story, Artest still believes that he should be a factor on offense.

He believes that he can still be dominant and "average over 20 ppg", meaning that he's wanting to continue his "post-ups" instead of taking what the defense gives him (wide open 3 pointers, open cuts)
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby therealdeal on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:12 pm

Agreed for the most part.

I know what you're saying about mentality, but that's what makes the 80s teams so damn special. Remember when guys like Worthy and Thompson could become Lakers and just accept their role? Remember when those guys would come in and maybe they have to sacrifice their games for something much greater, but they'd do it with zeal?

If Gasol could embrace being the 6th man, a la odom. If Kobe could just listen to age and let his team help him just a little more, a la Cap. If Dwight could swallow his enormous pride and allow the others to get the offense going smoothly while still patrolling the paint... If, if, if.

We're on the same page here, I just have a higher standard of mental capacity because I've been spoiled by great players in the past. Well you were too, but you're more understanding :man10:

I agree change is coming. If Gasol isn't traded sometime before the deadline in Feburary I'll be shocked. Unless of course something clicks and these guys start making a run. I'm betting on the former.
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby Nikez on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:19 pm

It's amazing how drama becomes "public" when were losing, but if we were even a lower seeded playoff team the media wouldn't be manufacturing these "kobe vs. dwight" and "trade dwight" rumors. This is all just fabricated nonsense by ratings-driven newspapers. We don't need drama to explain why we have been so bad this year. It simply comes down to basketball.
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby phoenixrisingla on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:25 pm

Nikez wrote:It's amazing how drama becomes "public" when were losing, but if we were even a lower seeded playoff team the media wouldn't be manufacturing these "kobe vs. dwight" and "trade dwight" rumors. This is all just fabricated nonsense by ratings-driven newspapers. We don't need drama to explain why we have been so bad this year. It simply comes down to basketball.


I'm not convinced the Kobe v. Dwight thing is completely fraudulent. The fight in the locker room thing probably was, but those guys dont look very buddy-buddy to me...
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby therealdeal on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:31 pm

phoenixrisingla wrote:
Nikez wrote:It's amazing how drama becomes "public" when were losing, but if we were even a lower seeded playoff team the media wouldn't be manufacturing these "kobe vs. dwight" and "trade dwight" rumors. This is all just fabricated nonsense by ratings-driven newspapers. We don't need drama to explain why we have been so bad this year. It simply comes down to basketball.


I'm not convinced the Kobe v. Dwight thing is completely fraudulent. The fight in the locker room thing probably was, but those guys dont look very buddy-buddy to me...

Well they probably don't get along fantastically, but I doubt they're coming to blows and whatnot. Dwight is young and immature and Kobe can't relate to that. Kobe is older, always serious, and Dwight can't relate to that. There's always going to be a "butting heads" thing going on there.

I think it's exaggerated, but not necessarily false. I'm sure they can talk to each other, but I'm also sure they don't go out to the clubs after games and hang out.
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby phoenixrisingla on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:42 pm

therealdeal wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:
Nikez wrote:It's amazing how drama becomes "public" when were losing, but if we were even a lower seeded playoff team the media wouldn't be manufacturing these "kobe vs. dwight" and "trade dwight" rumors. This is all just fabricated nonsense by ratings-driven newspapers. We don't need drama to explain why we have been so bad this year. It simply comes down to basketball.


I'm not convinced the Kobe v. Dwight thing is completely fraudulent. The fight in the locker room thing probably was, but those guys dont look very buddy-buddy to me...

Well they probably don't get along fantastically, but I doubt they're coming to blows and whatnot. Dwight is young and immature and Kobe can't relate to that. Kobe is older, always serious, and Dwight can't relate to that. There's always going to be a "butting heads" thing going on there.

I think it's exaggerated, but not necessarily false. I'm sure they can talk to each other, but I'm also sure they don't go out to the clubs after games and hang out.


Yup, my take exactly.
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Re: [New] Mitch Kupchak: Effort is the big worry

Postby GNC on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:55 pm

well no s***.. :man10: :man10:

A team of Dwight-Nash-Kobe should not be losing to scrub teams left and right and be 8 games under .500. Sure we lack some depth but if we played with some damn effort we wouldn't be where we are now.

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