MWPeace Discussion: Big Apple Bound

Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:03 am

Metta should be relegated to the bench; however, he can't be because his backup Ebanks shouldn't be on an NBA roster. Nevertheless, he has been good this season; I like him at the 4 position. We need a more athletic presence at the 3, more of a pure shooter...
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby therealdeal on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:20 am

GoldenKnight wrote:
therealdeal wrote:God I hate it here after losses! Why do I come back?

This attitude honestly disgusts me. I won't dignify responses to this with analysis.


I get you man, but wouldn't you rather have a more athletic 3 than Metta at this point? Someone who perhaps won't try to cross over Durant with his lack of speed? His effort is excellent, nobody is questioning that, but he cannot guard anybody for a full game anymore, especially trying to stop a perimeter player from driving right past him.

Yes I would. Let's trade Gasol and go get one. Having Artest as our backup forward is valuable to the team and to their mentality.
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby khmrP on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:09 am

IQ of a nat offensively, defensively he can't guard anyone who doesn't try to post him up.
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby wcsoldier81 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:21 am

Batum would be a perfect starting SF for this team
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:14 am

^Batum would be a good fit. You're absolutely right. I know he wanted to leave Portland last year, but it didn't happen. The only way I think we get him is through a three team trade...
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:14 am

^Batum would be a good fit. You're absolutely right. I know he wanted to leave Portland last year, but it didn't happen. The only way I think we get him is through a three team trade...
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby Ariza3 on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:18 pm

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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby The Rock on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:51 pm

His value is sky high right now, if we can get another SF who can hit some 3s Im down to trade him. Or we should try lessening his responsibilities hes not starter material lately with the way hes playing. Not defending well and not knocking down open shots

He shouldnt be taking more shots than Nash and Howard.
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby therealdeal on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:57 pm

^ In the last 4 games he's averaging 4 steals. He's defending just fine.

He's averaging Laker highs across the board except for assists. What World Peace are you watching? C'mon.
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby The Rock on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:03 pm

therealdeal wrote:^ In the last 4 games he's averaging 4 steals. He's defending just fine.

He's averaging Laker highs across the board except for assists. What World Peace are you watching? C'mon.


During the same 4 game stretch, 3 total assists, 60 total shots in 4 games...60. I understand Pau and Dwight were out but hes barely passed the ball and hes not hitting a good % of his shots either (wide open or at the rim). Its getting ridiculous because it carries over to the other side he's having loads of trouble just like last year guarding guys coming off screens, i know one man cant stop the scree/roll or screen/curl action but when his responsibility primarily is to defend his heart out and if hes not performing it well then he needs to go.

He competes hard but he makes way too many mistakes, almost Sasha-like in the way he approaches the game, what I mean by that is hes just making mistakes that a bench role player would make...for example not shooting when he's wide open and instead dribbling around and putting up a contested 20 footer or going 3 on 1 on fastbreaks and blowing a layup, or takes a contested shot way too early in the shot clock just makes mistakes at the wrong time too many times IMO. Hes playing out of his role and thats not good hes hurting the team when he does things like that. Hes not making many heady plays down the stretch either.
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby therealdeal on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:26 pm

The Rock wrote:
therealdeal wrote:^ In the last 4 games he's averaging 4 steals. He's defending just fine.

He's averaging Laker highs across the board except for assists. What World Peace are you watching? C'mon.


During the same 4 game stretch, 3 total assists, 60 total shots in 4 games...60. I understand Pau and Dwight were out but hes barely passed the ball and hes not hitting a good % of his shots either (wide open or at the rim). Its getting ridiculous because it carries over to the other side he's having loads of trouble just like last year guarding guys coming off screens, i know one man cant stop the scree/roll or screen/curl action but when his responsibility primarily is to defend his heart out and if hes not performing it well then he needs to go.

It's not his job to pass the ball and as a team we're sharing the ball just fine (except the Thunder game of course). That's the ONLY area in which he hasn't absolutely exceeded expectations and you're going to kill him for it?

And again you have no evidence for him not defending well. He's defending as well as anyone can ask/expect anyone else. This has been a terrific year for him defensively. In fact, he was a MASSIVE part of our come back attempt against San Antonio in which he did a great job.

All you've got is the Thunder game and I've got news man, everyone on the team got lit up that day by Durant and Westbrook. Everybody.

I don't know what Ron Artest you're watching, but it's certainly not the same one I've been watching. He's been our most consistent player on the year and I wouldn't trade him for anything short of a star right now.
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby l8kerboi23 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:31 pm

waiting for the day when we have a sf who won't just put his head down to get rejected on 3-1 fast breaks and while making 40% of his wide open 3's. I know he is out there..
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby khmrP on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:40 pm

I do see Peace as somewhat consistent but I dont agree he's been good on D all year, steals aren't an indicator being a good defender. Anyone can see this guy can not guard anyone fast (not many can on this team) but I've got to def. agree with Rock here in that Peace does a horrible job of defending his man when he gets screened because he allows himself too and gives up on the play once he's screened and he's easily lost on players who play off the ball, just like Kobe.
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby Finwë on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:41 pm

Realdeal, MWP does make a bunch of dumb mistakes. That Spurs game you mentioned, yeah, he was part of the comeback, but he also pretty much killed our chances of succesfully pulling it off with back-to-back bonehead plays (terrible fastbreak, didn't pass to a wide open Kobe for a dunk, instead terribly missed a layup -> next possession, he decides to drive again, failing one more time).
It's like we have solid role players like other teams do, but in our case they are just dumb or have low bball IQ or are inconsistent shooters. Take a Sefolosha for example. A role player, he's OKC's MWP. He plays very good D like MWP, but he doesn't make bonehead plays, he stays within his role, and he's a more consistent shooter.
Or take Collison. He's OKC's Jordan Hill. He hustles, grabs offensive rebounds, and does a bunch of other stuff, like Hill. The difference is he's a much smarter player, he doesn't commit stupid fouls, doesn't get lost as often, makes better reads...

It's like we have good role players but they are either dumb or inconsistent. Add that to Howard not being 100%, Pau being a total shell of himself, Nash being out 50 days, Kobe playing lazy help D and here we are, 5 games under .500
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby therealdeal on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:44 pm

Wow okay. 3-1 I guess I'm watching a different player out there.

I understand that he makes poor decisions at times, but the vast majority of his play this season has been good to great. He's hitting more shots at a higher percentage, he's active, he's moving.

A few mistakes doesn't keep me from seeing that he's been our most consistent battler all season long.
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby Legendary on Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:56 pm

Finwë wrote:Realdeal, MWP does make a bunch of dumb mistakes. That Spurs game you mentioned, yeah, he was part of the comeback, but he also pretty much killed our chances of succesfully pulling it off with back-to-back bonehead plays (terrible fastbreak, didn't pass to a wide open Kobe for a dunk, instead terribly missed a layup -> next possession, he decides to drive again, failing one more time).
It's like we have solid role players like other teams do, but in our case they are just dumb or have low bball IQ or are inconsistent shooters. Take a Sefolosha for example. A role player, he's OKC's MWP. He plays very good D like MWP, but he doesn't make bonehead plays, he stays within his role, and he's a more consistent shooter.
Or take Collison. He's OKC's Jordan Hill. He hustles, grabs offensive rebounds, and does a bunch of other stuff, like Hill. The difference is he's a much smarter player, he doesn't commit stupid fouls, doesn't get lost as often, makes better reads...

It's like we have good role players but they are either dumb or inconsistent. Add that to Howard not being 100%, Pau being a total shell of himself, Nash being out 50 days, Kobe playing lazy help D and here we are, 5 games under .500

I agree with this.

IMO, MWP is best suited as a 6th man for this team. He's shown that he can embrace that particular role without causing an uproar in the locker-room...and that's what we need, a guy who can produce for us when called upon from the bench.

Yes, I love what he's done this season with respect to getting in shape and showing effort...But we need a more cerebral/consistent/younger player to start for us at the 3 position.
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby kblo247 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:33 pm

People blaming Metta for his shooting or chucking are silly. Who was going to step up, it sure wasn't Nash who refuses to shoot the damn ball. A lot of Kobe or Metta's forces in that's trench was because Nash refused to make himself an offensive option and provide a third source of scoring. Nothing more and nothing less. Fact is Metta has been better than Nash and Pau this year
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby The Rock on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:22 pm

^ If he really wants to step up then he should do it on defense thats where his skill level is really needed. Hes a role player, hes not asked to create, it is created for him, wide open opportunities or scoring opportunities from Nash's and Kobe's play...instead of playing OFF them hes getting in their way and forcing the issue, that is completely wrong. Shoot the shots that is available to you, created from the opportunities that your prime players get you instead. He dribbles too much and that is a huge problem hes creating live ball turnovers and that is leading to fastbreaks.

IF you guys remember when we faced the Rockets in 09 he absolutely destroyed Ariza and Lamar to begin the series but we knew he wouldn't keep this up, same goes when he used to play in Sacramento he'd kill our guys to begin the game but he repeatedly get his shots blocked by Kobe or whoever towards the end of the game. He'd get pissed when Kobe scored on him in Sacramento and try to come back at the other end and get his shot blocked or turn it over or put up some contested 3 on 1 brick. JVG used to say this all the time the Lakers shouldn't overreact to Artest's ventures in the paint because its not sustainable, he is strong, he draws fouls, etc but he doesn't succed a lot of times that he does it

He has reverted back to that Ron not the 2009/2010 version of it who played his role to a T where he focused 100% on defense and hustling and took whatever shots was left behind, mostly jumpshots or layups from cuts from the post. Right now he's forcing the issue trying to create offense for himself or others, it will not work. HE needs to cut it out.
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby Armani on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:25 pm

Agree with Finwe.

MWP makes a lot of dumb plays and starts taking over on offense for some reason. I don't know why. This team doesn't need him to do that. Work within the offense, goddamnit, and play elite D. Play like Sefolosha, unless our offense has absolutely stagnated... and with Nash on the floor, that doesn't happen much.
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby kblo247 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:02 pm

If Pau or Nash did their jobs offensively, and that means Nash shooting the ball more than 1-4 times a game, and Oau converting like a damn big man and hitting open shots, then MWP wouldn't be out ina position where he has HAD to be the third option, he hasn't chosen that, he has been forced into it because Nash and Pau haven't lived up to their billing at all at this point

There was no excuse for Nash only taking 2 shots in the second half the Rockets game , 3 in the second half vs SA, or 6 for the whole game versus OKC. There was no excuse for Nash to squanders over 20 possessions forcing bad bounces to Sacre those games or not defending/rebounding at all which is why Kobe and MWP struggled. He gave them no help and they had to lug his dead weight like they have Paus all year. Pau and Nsh both have to step it up long before MWP gets any justified blame directed his way, same for Kobe and Dwight
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby Armani on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:09 pm

kblo247 wrote:If Pau or Nash did their jobs offensively, and that means Nash shooting the ball more than 1-4 times a game, and Oau converting like a damn big man and hitting open shots, then MWP wouldn't be out ina position where he has HAD to be the third option, he hasn't chosen that, he has been forced into it because Nash and Pau haven't lived up to their billing at all at this point


Err, Nash runs the offense... and he does it really well. This team is Kobe iso ball without Nash. Scoring isn't everything. The more the ball is in his hands, the better the offense looks... he makes the right decision every time down the floor. When Kobe limits his shots a little, and the team plays Nash ball, the offense looks beautiful.

MWP's offensive impact isn't anywhere near Nash's.
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby The Rock on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:11 pm

I've already pointed out Nash needs to shoot more, Im not saying MWP is not being aggressive ,he's going about it the wrong way, he should know his limitations, going on 3 on 1 fastbreaks is wrong. He finishes very poorly at the rim and hes not converting his open shots...sometimes he gets open shots but chooses to dribble it around instead of shooting at it at the first open look stuff like that bothers me. What Im saying is theres plenty of looks given to you by Nash and Kobe try hitting those first before trying to force the issue and creating offense on your own
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby kblo247 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:25 pm

Armani wrote:
kblo247 wrote:If Pau or Nash did their jobs offensively, and that means Nash shooting the ball more than 1-4 times a game, and Oau converting like a damn big man and hitting open shots, then MWP wouldn't be out ina position where he has HAD to be the third option, he hasn't chosen that, he has been forced into it because Nash and Pau haven't lived up to their billing at all at this point


Err, Nash runs the offense... and he does it really well. This team is Kobe iso ball without Nash. Scoring isn't everything. The more the ball is in his hands, the better the offense looks... he makes the right decision every time down the floor. When Kobe limits his shots a little, and the team plays Nash ball, the offense looks beautiful.

MWP's offensive impact isn't anywhere near Nash's.

No he doesn't. He threw away at least 10 possessions versus SA forcing bad bounces to Sacre who couldn't catch them. Nash has been far from impressive in his running of the offense. His unwillingness to shoot was really bad when the team needed him for those games to be a 20pt scorer and make teams account for him. And his D and rebounding are non existent. Nash has been far from Nash, the assist numbers are great because mostly Kobe accounts for them so far. Nash isn't Nash, he hasn't been Pau bad, but he hasn't lived up to his end of the billing either with them employing his coach and his system, and his lack of an all around game was already a pre noted detriment so he needs to pick up the scoring slack and minimize turnovers and bad possessions which he has caused quite a few of offensively from over passing or under shooting so far
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby Finwë on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:53 pm

I'm not even saying MWP has been bad this season. I'm just pointing out that his game still has many flaws, and sometimes they hurt us or our momentum.
I think his consistency isn't in his play but in the way he plays. That, no one can't take away from him, the guy is a fighter, he gives it his all every game. However, his play hasn't been consistent IMO. He's had stretches of games where he couldn't buy a 3pt shot, he's had terrible defensive lapses (help D, 1 on 1 D he's still elite), his fastbreaks have been hilariously bad, and there have been some possessions where he just goes full tunnel vision mode, hogging the ball and attempting to drive to no fruition.

I just wish our role players played a little more consistently basketball-wise, not effort (shooting, rotating effectively), a little smarter..
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Re: MWPeace Discussion: great McMen article - pg 161

Postby Armani on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:00 pm

kblo247 wrote:No he doesn't. He threw away at least 10 possessions versus SA forcing bad bounces to Sacre who couldn't catch them. Nash has been far from impressive in his running of the offense. His unwillingness to shoot was really bad when the team needed him for those games to be a 20pt scorer and make teams account for him. And his D and rebounding are non existent. Nash has been far from Nash, the assist numbers are great because mostly Kobe accounts for them so far. Nash isn't Nash, he hasn't been Pau bad, but he hasn't lived up to his end of the billing either with them employing his coach and his system, and his lack of an all around game was already a pre noted detriment so he needs to pick up the scoring slack and minimize turnovers and bad possessions which he has caused quite a few of offensively from over passing or under shooting so far


Thing is, this offense is ELITE with Nash on the floor. Hell, it's better than OKC or Miami's best lineups with Nash and Pau on the floor. Per 82games -

Chalmers-Wade-James-Haslem-Bosh - 1.16 Offense

Westbrook-Martin-Durant-Ibaka-Collison - 1.18 Offense

Nash-Kobe-MWP-Gasol-Dwight - 1.20 Offense

There is no comparison. It's the best lineup. With Clark on the floor instead of Pau (in that 3 games sample), it's still legitimately elite O. If you think Nash averaging 8 shots now is bad, you have to realize Nash has been taking 11-12 shots in his MVP days. He has always run an elite offense in his prime, and he's always taken a low volume of shots. Sighting 1 or 2 bad games isn't going to change that.
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