#NBArank 6: Kobe Bryant

@ using the people on RealGM's list is like that argument. Those people are MORONS. All they care about is stats. Most of the clowns don't even have Kobe in their top 15.

I dont even know why some of you bother responding to JGC lol we know what his agenda is. Save yourself some time and put him on ignore like I did months ago

The Rock wrote:I dont even know why some of you bother responding to JGC lol we know what his agenda is. Save yourself some time and put him on ignore like I did months ago

Problem is there is several people here like him with the same agenda.

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:I understand why you guys don't like my list and it would be foolish of me to expect a lot of people to agree with me since this is a Lakers forum, however I think a lot of you form your opinions of certain players by reading this website instead of finding more impartial sources and that ends up skewing your perspective. That's why my list looks so ridiculous to you guys because you don't expose yourselves to people who won't always think the same way.

I disagree with you completely.

The VAST majority of people in this thread rank Kobe fairly. At Kobe's age he is statstically keeping up with the young guns in the league. He lead an incomplete team to the 2nd round of the playoffs. He was almost the league's leading scorer, losing by mere tenths of points to Kevin Durant who is 10 years younger than him. You rank Westbrook, Love, Nowitzki, and Wade above him.

I'd love to know why. What does Westbrook do that makes him a better PLAYER than Kobe Bryant? Is it his talent at finding others with the ball? Because even as a PG he averages less than a full assist more than Kobe. Is it his rebounding? Kobe averages more than him. His FG%s are comparable even though he's young and explosive enough to get to the rim far easier than Kobe. He averages less points and the same number of turnovers. That's just statistically. Using the eye test, Westbrook holds the ball too long, he dribbles too much, takes at least as many ill-advised shots as Kobe (even moreso because every shot he takes means Durant takes one less), and even with his ability to get into the paint, he does an awful job of finding his teammates regularly for a PG.

What does Love do that makes him a better player than Kobe? Is it his impact on all of the games the Wolves won? Or is it just because he is a statistical anomaly? Love does two things great: shoot open threes and rebound the ball. He is a sub-par defender, an average post player, doesn’t take care of the ball very well, and he is not great at finding opportunities for others to score. Is he the best PF in the game right now? Maybe. That’s extremely debatable, but what about his game is BETTER than Kobe Bryant? What about his play IMPACTS a game more than Kobe Bryant? Just the numbers? Anything else?

What does Nowitzki do that makes him BETTER than Kobe Bryant? Does he carry his team better? He lead his team to the 3rd best record in his division with 5 more losses than the Lakers. He is maybe a better scorer at this point in his career, but he’s also a sub-par rebounder for his position and a putrid defender. Does Kobe give his all defensively every play like he used to? No. But he gives his all on some plays which is more than Dirk who hasn’t average more than 1 block a game in 2 years. For a seven footer that’s garbage.

What does Dwayne Wade do that makes him BETTER than Kobe Bryant? Statistically they are right there with each other. On a down shooting season Kobe still shot better than him from deep and from the line. Wade gets to the basket easier giving him a higher overall percentage, but he scores less points. Wade averages less rebounds and the exact same number of assists. Wade is a little younger and retains some of his athleticism better than Kobe, so he’s more mobile defensively (better for blocks and steals), but according to Synergy Sports they hold their respective counterparts to a similar PPP (.83 for Kobe and .79 for Wade). Then you talk about the eye test a little more. What does Wade do for his team that makes him better than Kobe? Does he give them heart like Kobe does? Does he frequently carry the team on a nightly basis? Or is that James doing those things? I think we both know the answer.

You come in here and you make the assumption that we aren’t educated. Just because we’re Laker fans doesn’t mean we don’t look at other sources of information. Just because we frequent this website doesn’t mean we don’t see others as well. Many posters here have RealGM accounts and many posters here are extremely knowledgeable about basketball and other teams. That’s part of the reason so many of us enjoy it here.

Your assertion that we don’t agree with your list BECAUSE we’re Laker fans is a fallacy. We don’t agree with your list because it’s backed up by zero evidence, you didn’t try to support it, and instead of doing those things you said “well other people on other sites say it is this way”. Are we supposed to say “Oh well if RealGM says it, then it must be better than what we’re saying, you’re right”? Of course not.

If you really truly believe all of those players are better than Kobe Bryant then support yourself on that. Let’s see your argument why instead of talking down to us because we’re Laker fans.

^^^ Great post. Agreed with every word.

therealdeal wrote:

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:I understand why you guys don't like my list and it would be foolish of me to expect a lot of people to agree with me since this is a Lakers forum, however I think a lot of you form your opinions of certain players by reading this website instead of finding more impartial sources and that ends up skewing your perspective. That's why my list looks so ridiculous to you guys because you don't expose yourselves to people who won't always think the same way.

I disagree with you completely.

The VAST majority of people in this thread rank Kobe fairly. At Kobe's age he is statstically keeping up with the young guns in the league. He lead an incomplete team to the 2nd round of the playoffs. He was almost the league's leading scorer, losing by mere tenths of points to Kevin Durant who is 10 years younger than him. You rank Westbrook, Love, Nowitzki, and Wade above him.

I'd love to know why. What does Westbrook do that makes him a better PLAYER than Kobe Bryant? Is it his talent at finding others with the ball? Because even as a PG he averages less than a full assist more than Kobe. Is it his rebounding? Kobe averages more than him. His FG%s are comparable even though he's young and explosive enough to get to the rim far easier than Kobe. He averages less points and the same number of turnovers. That's just statistically. Using the eye test, Westbrook holds the ball too long, he dribbles too much, takes at least as many ill-advised shots as Kobe (even moreso because every shot he takes means Durant takes one less), and even with his ability to get into the paint, he does an awful job of finding his teammates regularly for a PG.

What does Love do that makes him a better player than Kobe? Is it his impact on all of the games the Wolves won? Or is it just because he is a statistical anomaly? Love does two things great: shoot open threes and rebound the ball. He is a sub-par defender, an average post player, doesn’t take care of the ball very well, and he is not great at finding opportunities for others to score. Is he the best PF in the game right now? Maybe. That’s extremely debatable, but what about his game is BETTER than Kobe Bryant? What about his play IMPACTS a game more than Kobe Bryant? Just the numbers? Anything else?

What does Nowitzki do that makes him BETTER than Kobe Bryant? Does he carry his team better? He lead his team to the 3rd best record in his division with 5 more losses than the Lakers. He is maybe a better scorer at this point in his career, but he’s also a sub-par rebounder for his position and a putrid defender. Does Kobe give his all defensively every play like he used to? No. But he gives his all on some plays which is more than Dirk who hasn’t average more than 1 block a game in 2 years. For a seven footer that’s garbage.

What does Dwayne Wade do that makes him BETTER than Kobe Bryant? Statistically they are right there with each other. On a down shooting season Kobe still shot better than him from deep and from the line. Wade gets to the basket easier giving him a higher overall percentage, but he scores less points. Wade averages less rebounds and the exact same number of assists. Wade is a little younger and retains some of his athleticism better than Kobe, so he’s more mobile defensively (better for blocks and steals), but according to Synergy Sports they hold their respective counterparts to a similar PPP (.83 for Kobe and .79 for Wade). Then you talk about the eye test a little more. What does Wade do for his team that makes him better than Kobe? Does he give them heart like Kobe does? Does he frequently carry the team on a nightly basis? Or is that James doing those things? I think we both know the answer.

You come in here and you make the assumption that we aren’t educated. Just because we’re Laker fans doesn’t mean we don’t look at other sources of information. Just because we frequent this website doesn’t mean we don’t see others as well. Many posters here have RealGM accounts and many posters here are extremely knowledgeable about basketball and other teams. That’s part of the reason so many of us enjoy it here.

Your assertion that we don’t agree with your list BECAUSE we’re Laker fans is a fallacy. We don’t agree with your list because it’s backed up by zero evidence, you didn’t try to support it, and instead of doing those things you said “well other people on other sites say it is this way”. Are we supposed to say “Oh well if RealGM says it, then it must be better than what we’re saying, you’re right”? Of course not.

If you really truly believe all of those players are better than Kobe Bryant then support yourself on that. Let’s see your argument why instead of talking down to us because we’re Laker fans.

Bravo

^^^So.... no "White Guys" above Kobe.... Got it.... I'll make a note for referencing in the future.

Thanks.....



Oh... wait... Was that just "White Guys" or "White Guys" from UCLA or players from UCLA?...

Wade was never better then Bryant. Kobe was always the best SG in the league, and he still is. And a banged-up, 30-year old Wade (he's almost 31) is certainly not getting any better now. But don't get me wrong, he's a fantastic player. Just not as good as Kobe. Never was. And neither was Dirk, let alone Kevin Love (who I'd love -- pun intended -- to have on our team one day).

CP3, Durant, Dwight... sure, fine. HEALTHY Rose, maybe. Bron, no question at this point in their career. Other guys on that "top 10" list... that's just asinine.

First of all I never called anyone here uneducated. I said posters here were more prone to bias which is why I got attacked for not ranking Kobe as highly as others. Secondly I really really hate doing these long quote wars but I have a few minutes...FYI though I probably won't respond if your next reply is equally as long. Just don't have the time.

therealdeal wrote:I disagree with you completely.

The VAST majority of people in this thread rank Kobe fairly. At Kobe's age he is statstically keeping up with the young guns in the league. He lead an incomplete team to the 2nd round of the playoffs. He was almost the league's leading scorer, losing by mere tenths of points to Kevin Durant who is 10 years younger than him. You rank Westbrook, Love, Nowitzki, and Wade above him.

Fair is subjective. A lot of people are claiming he's still top 5 which to me is completely absurd since he's closer to 10 than 5 on my list. Incomplete team? Lol you can say that about any team that doesn't win the championship. That just sounds like an excuse to pump Kobe up. Scoring has a lot less value when it's your main attribute and you can't even do it efficiently. People focus way too much on scoring and act like anyone who scores a lot is a better player. Complete fallacy.

I'd love to know why. What does Westbrook do that makes him a better PLAYER than Kobe Bryant? Is it his talent at finding others with the ball? Because even as a PG he averages less than a full assist more than Kobe. Is it his rebounding? Kobe averages more than him. His FG%s are comparable even though he's young and explosive enough to get to the rim far easier than Kobe. He averages less points and the same number of turnovers. That's just statistically. Using the eye test, Westbrook holds the ball too long, he dribbles too much, takes at least as many ill-advised shots as Kobe (even moreso because every shot he takes means Durant takes one less), and even with his ability to get into the paint, he does an awful job of finding his teammates regularly for a PG.

I have Westbrook above Kobe because he's younger, more athletic, and draws a lot of defensive attention that goes unnoticed. I said 8-10 were interchangeable so Kobe over Westbrook wouldn't bother me at all.

What does Love do that makes him a better player than Kobe? Is it his impact on all of the games the Wolves won? Or is it just because he is a statistical anomaly? Love does two things great: shoot open threes and rebound the ball. He is a sub-par defender, an average post player, doesn’t take care of the ball very well, and he is not great at finding opportunities for others to score. Is he the best PF in the game right now? Maybe. That’s extremely debatable, but what about his game is BETTER than Kobe Bryant? What about his play IMPACTS a game more than Kobe Bryant? Just the numbers? Anything else?

Well for one thing the Wolves have been absolutely atrocious when Love doesn't play (5-38!!!) so yes I'd say he does have a decent amount of impact on his team. He averaged 26 PPG last season on 56.8 TS% which is really good for a lock-out season where the league average was 52.7% (what Kobe shot). He is an elite scorer, definitely better than Kobe last season. He isn't a great play maker but he is just recently learning to create his own shot so that will come in time. But again he's young and Kobe is getting older which is why I give Love the benefit of the doubt by ranking him higher but ranking Kobe above him right now wouldn't be horrible either as I stated earlier.

What does Nowitzki do that makes him BETTER than Kobe Bryant? Does he carry his team better? He lead his team to the 3rd best record in his division with 5 more losses than the Lakers. He is maybe a better scorer at this point in his career, but he’s also a sub-par rebounder for his position and a putrid defender. Does Kobe give his all defensively every play like he used to? No. But he gives his all on some plays which is more than Dirk who hasn’t average more than 1 block a game in 2 years. For a seven footer that’s garbage.

Dirk is an amazing shooter which is one of the most underrated aspect of basketball. Floor spacers that can create their own shot and pass are super super valuable. Dirk's rebounding is also fine despite his height. His offensive rebounding numbers bring down his averages because the Mav's offense isn't based on going after them, they tell their defenders to run back on defense. They have been ranked at the bottom of the league in ORB% for years now. And where is your evidence that Dirk is a putrid defender? Sorry but making claims based on stereotypes doesn't do much to give you credibility. Dirk's defensive adjusted plus/minus numbers and in and out numbers on defense have been amazing for years now so the notion that he is a bad defender is garbage. He gets back on defense, he doesn't turn the ball over alot, and his skill set is so portable that you can place just about anyone around him and they will feel comfortable. There's a reason the Mavs best defensive lineups always include Dirk. Kobe on the other hand has been a barely average to below average defender for two straight seasons and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Dirk's impact numbers (RAPM) have also been at the top of the league for two straight seasons now by a HUGE margin.

What does Dwayne Wade do that makes him BETTER than Kobe Bryant? Statistically they are right there with each other. On a down shooting season Kobe still shot better than him from deep and from the line. Wade gets to the basket easier giving him a higher overall percentage, but he scores less points. Wade averages less rebounds and the exact same number of assists. Wade is a little younger and retains some of his athleticism better than Kobe, so he’s more mobile defensively (better for blocks and steals), but according to Synergy Sports they hold their respective counterparts to a similar PPP (.83 for Kobe and .79 for Wade). Then you talk about the eye test a little more. What does Wade do for his team that makes him better than Kobe? Does he give them heart like Kobe does? Does he frequently carry the team on a nightly basis? Or is that James doing those things? I think we both know the answer.

They both had a down season and Wade shot more efficiently. Wade averaged 22/4.8/4.6/1.7/1.3 on 56 TS% in only 33 MPG. People make it sound like he was complete garbage this season, the only problem he had was staying healthy. He didn't have a spectacular post-season, but looking back he still had some great games and contributed defensively when he wasn't feeling it. I still give the benefit of the doubt to Wade because again, he's younger and Kobe didn't do much of anything this season to distinguish himself.

lakerswiz wrote:

Rooscooter wrote:^^^So.... no "White Guys" above Kobe.... Got it.... I'll make a note for referencing in the future.

Thanks.....



Oh... wait... Was that just "White Guys" or "White Guys" from UCLA or players from UCLA?...

I had issues with the whole list, Dirk and Love were easily the most laughable of the list. At least Bron and KD have some sort of credentials, but Love and Dirk!!!

Oh.... I got it.... I was just returning a friendly jab......

My opinion on the list is clear as well.... I'm the one he referenced in his response to Weezy..... I think I was the "Arrogant Mocker".......

I don't have the time or means to respond... I'll be back.

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:First of all I never called anyone here uneducated. I said posters here were more prone to bias which is why I got attacked for not ranking Kobe as highly as others.

No you never did, but some posters like to imply it.

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:Secondly I really really hate doing these long quote wars but I have a few minutes...FYI though I probably won't respond if your next reply is equally as long. Just don't have the time.

Okie dokie.

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:Fair is subjective. A lot of people are claiming he's still top 5 which to me is completely absurd since he's closer to 10 than 5 on my list.

That's one of the worst jumps in logic I've ever read. So since you think Kobe is ranked so lowly, we're all absurd for having him in the top 5? You realize that's why we all are laughing derisively at your list right? Talk about subjectivity... I'm about to show you why your arguments are all quite subject and well... absurd.

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:Incomplete team? Lol you can say that about any team that doesn't win the championship. That just sounds like an excuse to pump Kobe up.

You can say that for every single team in the league every single year. There's no such thing as a complete team. But to laugh at the idea of our team being incomplete is silly. Why would you laugh? What other player that you listed above Kobe had a bench that averaged the league LOW in points per game and forced their starters to play extended minutes? None of them. Last year's Lakers were garbage for the majority of their season outside of their top 3 players. No other team could say they had a team as weak from 4-14 that the Lakers and Kobe did.

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:Scoring has a lot less value when it's your main attribute and you can't even do it efficiently. People focus way too much on scoring and act like anyone who scores a lot is a better player. Complete fallacy.

Scoring is overrated when you're talking about Andrew Goudelock being a scoring threat off the bench. When you're talking about a 33 year old player who was tenths of points from being the scoring leader of the league, you're talking about something extraordinary. You gloss over the scoring ability like it's nothing when it's one of the more difficult accomplishments a player can reach. Just because he wasn't the model of efficiency, doesn't mean what he did was unimpressive or not valuable.

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:I have Westbrook above Kobe because he's younger, more athletic, and draws a lot of defensive attention that goes unnoticed. I said 8-10 were interchangeable so Kobe over Westbrook wouldn't bother me at all.

Youth and athleticism are the metrics for greatness? Really? By your logic DeAndre Jordan should be ranked higher than Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett because he's younger and more athletic right? As for drawing attention that goes unnoticed... You realize that's an oxymoron right? Any attention anyone receives is noticed by definition of what attention is. And the amount of attention that Westbrook gets is no greater than Kobe Bryant who exceeded Westbrook last season, so I'm not sure how he could be ranked higher.

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:Well for one thing the Wolves have been absolutely atrocious when Love doesn't play (5-38!!!) so yes I'd say he does have a decent amount of impact on his team.

Oh, I see. So having a decent impact on a bad team makes you a top 10 player now? I would think that having a profound impact on your team would at least be your criteria for a top 10 player in the league. The Wolves won a whole 26 games last season with Love. Impressive.

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:He averaged 26 PPG last season on 56.8 TS% which is really good for a lock-out season where the league average was 52.7% (what Kobe shot). He is an elite scorer, definitely better than Kobe last season.

This is just absolutely wrong.

Love is a better shooter than Kobe at this point, yes. But Love is not better than Kobe at scoring the basketball, no way. Love is assisted more than 45% of the time on ALL shots he takes and he is assisted a whopping (wait for it) over 90% of the time from deep! A scorer is someone who creates shots for themselves and Love does not do that. Kobe meanwhile is assisted somewhere in the 60% range from deep, as is Carmelo, and Durant brings up the high end for scorers at somewhere in the 70% range (he comes off of screens, so that's why he's so high). But the idea of Love being a better scorer than Kobe... wow that's wrong.

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:He isn't a great play maker but he is just recently learning to create his own shot so that will come in time. But again he's young and Kobe is getting older which is why I give Love the benefit of the doubt by ranking him higher but ranking Kobe above him right now wouldn't be horrible either as I stated earlier.

Someone who isn't a great play maker has trouble getting to a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio. Love is below that. He's not a play maker and this last season was his worst season yet for assist to turnovers. But okay, you relented on that position.

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:Dirk is an amazing shooter which is one of the most underrated aspect of basketball. Floor spacers that can create their own shot and pass are super super valuable.

How is being an amazing shooter underrated? Again with the odd word choice... something that is amazing is difficult to underrate. Not to mention, if shooting was so underrated why would guys like Kyle Korver and Sasha Vujacic earn 5 million or more a year doing nothing of else of value on a basketball court besides shooting the ball? Shooting is far from "undervalued".

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote: Dirk's rebounding is also fine despite his height. His offensive rebounding numbers bring down his averages because the Mav's offense isn't based on going after them, they tell their defenders to run back on defense. They have been ranked at the bottom of the league in ORB% for years now.

What were you saying earlier about excuses?

So his rebounding numbers are fine because of the team's concept, but Kobe's scoring is something we can easily dismiss? Got it.

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:And where is your evidence that Dirk is a putrid defender? Sorry but making claims based on stereotypes doesn't do much to give you credibility. Dirk's defensive adjusted plus/minus numbers and in and out numbers on defense have been amazing for years now so the notion that he is a bad defender is garbage.

I provided my evidence: he hasn't even averaged a single block a game at 7 feet tall for the last two seasons. Plus/Minus and Adjusted Plus/Minus is something I hold almost no stock in, but I'd listen to your argument if you could provide the actual numbers showing him to be a good defender to the point of comparison to Kobe Bryant. But Adjusted Plus/Minus also indicates that Steve Nash is a great defender. You want to argue the point that Nash is a great defender or can we agree that he isn't which takes from the validity of your argument?

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:He gets back on defense, he doesn't turn the ball over alot, and his skill set is so portable that you can place just about anyone around him and they will feel comfortable. There's a reason the Mavs best defensive lineups always include Dirk. Kobe on the other hand has been a barely average to below average defender for two straight seasons and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Dirk's impact numbers (RAPM) have also been at the top of the league for two straight seasons now by a HUGE margin.

Kobe's been voted to All-Defensive teams the last two seasons, Dirk hasn't. And again, please provide the actual evidence instead of just your words because I can't really trust what you're saying. Sorry.

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:They both had a down season and Wade shot more efficiently. Wade averaged 22/4.8/4.6/1.7/1.3 on 56 TS% in only 33 MPG. People make it sound like he was complete garbage this season, the only problem he had was staying healthy. He didn't have a spectacular post-season, but looking back he still had some great games and contributed defensively when he wasn't feeling it. I still give the benefit of the doubt to Wade because again, he's younger and Kobe didn't do much of anything this season to distinguish himself.

You mean Kobe's 27.9/5.4/4.6/1.2/0.3 on 53 TS% in 38 minutes isn't distinguished? I mean, you can't honestly believe that. Name the other players that averaged over 27/5/4 for me. Please. Show me that list and then tell me what Kobe did wasn't "distinguished". To rank Wade above Kobe while Wade averaged less a season ago... just silly. Especially since a "younger" Wade is still just as beat up, if not more, than Kobe.

^^Looks familiar......

lakerswiz wrote:I've never been okay with ranking players. There just isn't a way to do it IMO. At all. Computer stats don't tell the whole picture. People are biased.

And at that rate how do you judge the best? The most skilled? Most effective? Best player on the best team?

I know who the best player is. The players that follow - you decide that yourself, it doesn't matter to me who #2 is.

Kobe to me has been the best player since Jordan bar none. LeBron isn't close. KD isn't close. D-Wade was never close.

At all. In any way. That may be the most biased take on Kobe's skill level, but I believe it 100%. Who has done what Kobe has done as long as he has?

You can bring up all the stats you want to. Because I'm not talking about stats. And they sure as hell aren't going to tell you if a player is more skilled or not just based on shooting a bit higher percentage or because their teammates are able to finish their passes a bit more often.

No one in this game since Jordan has had anywhere near the talent level that Kobe has.

He has been head and shoulders above anyone that has been put up against him. He has scored in every way seemingly possible. He has gotten to the basket in every way possible. He has completed passes that would make Magic Johnson jealous. I've seen him play 94 feet of defense against the guys that are supposed to be better than him.

And they're not. They may score a few more points a game. They may stay back on defense after a missed shot to grab another rebounds. Their teammates may complete the other end of an assist more often. Maybe they don't take as many forced shots a game.

Good for them.

They still aren't as skilled as my main man Kobe Bryant.






I mean seriously. Dwight Howard a better basketball player than Kobe Bryant?

lol

While I feel almost the same way, I think you are getting this list's "concept" wrong. You are saying "better basketball player" as in what someone can do with a basketball, his skill-level, the uniqueness of his talent. In that sense, I completely agree Kobe's been the best since MJ and belongs IMO in the top 3 (all-time) discussion.
The problem is, this ranking isn't about skill level. It's entirely about perceived production. Let me ask you this? Who would you say was a better basketball player, prime Shaq or prime Hakeem? If you are going by the concept of "what he can do with a basketball" / skills, there's no doubt it's Hakeem right? BUT, if you go by "production", it's Shaq. Shaq wasn't "skilled", he was just HUGE, strong, mobile, in ways no one had ever seen before. Therefore, despite lacking many fundamentals and basic skills, he could produce way more than someone like Hakeem.
This list is about that, who "produces" more on the court. Is LeBron James more skilled with a basketball than, say, Kobe? NO. But his amazing (freakish really) physique, plus the skills he does have form a particular combination that becomes deadly on the court. That's why they rank him 1, because he can "produce" better than others, at least in the way it's perceived by stats. That's what the stats analysts use are: symbols of production.
They do have flaws though. For example, the only stats about "making your teams better" would be assists / assists ratio or something like other players FG% when you're on the court (which isn't something they really look at btw). Stats have no way of showing, for example, something like true leadership. There is no stat for giving confidence, encouraging and taking pressure off your teammates. There is no stat for being a guy they can count on in the clutch despite recent struggles..

Production-wise, I agree, LeBron James is currently #1. Kevin Durant would be #2, and the list becomes very interesting after that. I would NOT put Wade, Nowitzki or Rose ahead of Kobe, even if he did have a somewhat "inefficient" season. Wade SUCKED through big parts of last season & the playoffs. Rose wasn't healthy like 4/6 of the time. Nowitzki, except in that stretch of the 2011's playoffs where he looked like the most unstoppable shooter of all-time, was never better than Kobe, and this season was no different.

I could go on and on about why Kobe is underranked at #6, even if it's a purely "production"-based ranking, but it's too tiresome and I see no retribution lol.

Finwë wrote:This list is about that, who "produces" more on the court. Is LeBron James more skilled with a basketball than, say, Kevin Durant? NO. But his amazing (freakish really) physique, plus the skills he does have form a particular combination that becomes deadly on the court. That's why they rank him 1, because he can "produce" better than others, at least in the way it's perceived by stats. That's what the stats analysts use are: symbols of production.

LeBron James is more skilled than Durant.

Outside shooting the ball, there is really nothing Durant does better. LeBron is the better post player, ball handler, passer, finisher, rebounder, and defender.

^^I'm not sure I'd say LeBron is a much better "finisher" than Durant. Also Durant has been bigger in "final possession" situations by a pretty fair margin..... other than that I agree

thkthebest wrote:

Finwë wrote:This list is about that, who "produces" more on the court. Is LeBron James more skilled with a basketball than, say, Kevin Durant? NO. But his amazing (freakish really) physique, plus the skills he does have form a particular combination that becomes deadly on the court. That's why they rank him 1, because he can "produce" better than others, at least in the way it's perceived by stats. That's what the stats analysts use are: symbols of production.

LeBron James is more skilled than Durant.

Outside shooting the ball, there is really nothing Durant does better. LeBron is the better post player, ball handler, passer, finisher, rebounder, and defender.

First of all, I wouldn't say LeBron is a better rebounder than KD, but if that's the case then it's because of, like I said, his freakish athleticism and body (especially strength, speed and leaping ability, combined at a level I don't think we've seen before). The same goes for defense and finishing, his advantage is a physical one, not skills.

I wouldn't say LeBron is a better ball handler than Durant either. He may look more secure with the ball, but that's always gonna be the case against a guy who's almost 6'11".

Postgame could be viewed as a wash tooin terms of SKILLS. LeBron's advantage in the post is really just his strength, and that's not a skill is it? (see Shaq vs Hakeem, who's more skilled in the post?). Durant's got LeBron on shots on the post, obviously because he's a better shooter. Both have some good moves, but neither have notoriously good footwork. LeBron tends to use the "dream shake" fade, and Durant's been doing a lot of one-legged fades ala Dirk.

LeBron is unquestionably the better passer, and Durant is unquestionably the better shooter.

I play basketball and I watch a lot of NBA basketball. I watch almost every Heat game, ditto for the Thunder. I'd say the number of times Durant does something that SKILL-WISE just jumps at me and is jawdropping far exceeds the number of times that happens with LeBron. That's not saying LeBron isn't as good as Durant, it's saying IMO Durant is the more SKILLED player.
But still, you've managed to make it into a debate, so I think I'll change the post you quoted to a less debatable example.

TIME wrote:

JGC wrote:

therealdeal wrote:So much elitism in this thread... it's suffocating.

I'm on my phone now but I'll be back here when I can be.

Well, I wouldn't call it elitism, it's just fanaticism. I think most fans actually think that they are objective.

He's referring to you and a couple of others.

Look we get it that there are some Lakers / Kobe homers here. But being an anti-Kobe homer doesn't gain you any more credibility than being a Kobe homer does. If you, Scrotal, and lakers_09tv think that everyone here that disagrees with you are blind homers why do you waste your time here?

The list was pretty bad though... no homer.

First off, I'm not sure how many times I have to say it, but I'm not an anti-Kobe anything. Kobe is my favorite player and the reason I became a Laker fan. You can look back through my entire post history. Never have I ever said Kobe sucks, or that I don't like Kobe, or anything disparaging about Kobe as a person or a player.

That's the problem around here. You cannot criticize the guy without being a "hater". I will freely admit that I criticize Kobe however. And I will freely admit that I am more critical of Kobe than I am of any other Laker or NBA player. But that's precisely because he's my favorite player and my expectations for him are higher than they are for anyone else. I am more likely to shrug off a bad game from Steve Blake, than I am from Kobe Bryant.

When the Lakers lose, and Kobe has a bad game, I will generally be one of the first to imply that the loss was primarily (not entirely) on Kobe's shoulders. Meanwhile, most of this board is looking to blame any Laker not named Kobe. To me, that doesn't make any sense. If you're the best player on the team, and you're the leader of the team, and you're the captain, and you're the highest paid player on the team and in the league, then why shouldn't you be held accountable more than any other player on your team when the team loses? That's just how I am. Believe me, when Kobe is gone and D12 is leading the team and if he plays poorly and we lose, I will be doing the same thing with him. I'm sure everyone will gasp and call me a D12-hater too.

Go look at some of the threads about clutch play. Everyone and their mother in here has a million and one excuses as to why Kobe wasn't clutch last season. Too many minutes. He's tired. Bad finger. Blah blah blah. Has everyone forgotten the very definition of clutch? Rising above ALL obstacles to get the job done. That's clutch. Since when has being tired been an excuse for not being clutch? Wow. I don't care if you're Kobe, Lebron, MJ or Horry, if you don't get the job done in the clutch, then it wasn't clutch. Period. It doesn't matter why. It doesn't matter who. Clutch doesn't care why or who.

I find it annoying and unfortunate, that most people in here, including seasoned posters with many posts under their belt, appear to give Kobe a free pass when he doesn't perform but are quick to bash on role players making 10% of what Kobe makes for not performing. To me, that makes no sense. When we win and he plays well, Kobe should get most (not all) but most of the credit. But the same needs to be true when we lose and he plays poorly and it just isn't around here.

*sigh*

I'll get back to this tomorrow some time. It's late and this is going to take some time.

therealdeal wrote:*sigh*

I'll get back to this tomorrow some time. It's late and this is going to take some time.

No matter how many times you run around the circle you will never find its beginning nor its end.
The faster you run around that cirlce the more you look like dog chasing its tail my friend.
-Puffy

JGC wrote:

TIME wrote:

JGC wrote:

therealdeal wrote:So much elitism in this thread... it's suffocating.

I'm on my phone now but I'll be back here when I can be.

Well, I wouldn't call it elitism, it's just fanaticism. I think most fans actually think that they are objective.

He's referring to you and a couple of others.

Look we get it that there are some Lakers / Kobe homers here. But being an anti-Kobe homer doesn't gain you any more credibility than being a Kobe homer does. If you, Scrotal, and lakers_09tv think that everyone here that disagrees with you are blind homers why do you waste your time here?

The list was pretty bad though... no homer.

First off, I'm not sure how many times I have to say it, but I'm not an anti-Kobe anything. Kobe is my favorite player and the reason I became a Laker fan. You can look back through my entire post history. Never have I ever said Kobe sucks, or that I don't like Kobe, or anything disparaging about Kobe as a person or a player.

That's the problem around here. You cannot criticize the guy without being a "hater". I will freely admit that I criticize Kobe however. And I will freely admit that I am more critical of Kobe than I am of any other Laker or NBA player. But that's precisely because he's my favorite player and my expectations for him are higher than they are for anyone else. I am more likely to shrug off a bad game from Steve Blake, than I am from Kobe Bryant.

When the Lakers lose, and Kobe has a bad game, I will generally be one of the first to imply that the loss was primarily (not entirely) on Kobe's shoulders. Meanwhile, most of this board is looking to blame any Laker not named Kobe. To me, that doesn't make any sense. If you're the best player on the team, and you're the leader of the team, and you're the captain, and you're the highest paid player on the team and in the league, then why shouldn't you be held accountable more than any other player on your team when the team loses? That's just how I am. Believe me, when Kobe is gone and D12 is leading the team and if he plays poorly and we lose, I will be doing the same thing with him. I'm sure everyone will gasp and call me a D12-hater too.

Go look at some of the threads about clutch play. Everyone and their mother in here has a million and one excuses as to why Kobe wasn't clutch last season. Too many minutes. He's tired. Bad finger. Blah blah blah. Has everyone forgotten the very definition of clutch? Rising above ALL obstacles to get the job done. That's clutch. Since when has being tired been an excuse for not being clutch? Wow. I don't care if you're Kobe, Lebron, MJ or Horry, if you don't get the job done in the clutch, then it wasn't clutch. Period. It doesn't matter why. It doesn't matter who. Clutch doesn't care why or who.

I find it annoying and unfortunate, that most people in here, including seasoned posters with many posts under their belt, appear to give Kobe a free pass when he doesn't perform but are quick to bash on role players making 10% of what Kobe makes for not performing. To me, that makes no sense. When we win and he plays well, Kobe should get most (not all) but most of the credit. But the same needs to be true when we lose and he plays poorly and it just isn't around here.

Nothing wrong with criticizing Kobe when he deserves it. I do.

But the comment was about elitism. Your posts, like this one are usually flavored with it.

Finwë wrote:First of all, I wouldn't say LeBron is a better rebounder than KD, but if that's the case then it's because of, like I said, his freakish athleticism and body (especially strength, speed and leaping ability, combined at a level I don't think we've seen before). The same goes for defense and finishing, his advantage is a physical one, not skills.

I wouldn't say LeBron is a better ball handler than Durant either. He may look more secure with the ball, but that's always gonna be the case against a guy who's almost 6'11".

Postgame could be viewed as a wash tooin terms of SKILLS. LeBron's advantage in the post is really just his strength, and that's not a skill is it? (see Shaq vs Hakeem, who's more skilled in the post?). Durant's got LeBron on shots on the post, obviously because he's a better shooter. Both have some good moves, but neither have notoriously good footwork. LeBron tends to use the "dream shake" fade, and Durant's been doing a lot of one-legged fades ala Dirk.

LeBron is unquestionably the better passer, and Durant is unquestionably the better shooter.

I play basketball and I watch a lot of NBA basketball. I watch almost every Heat game, ditto for the Thunder. I'd say the number of times Durant does something that SKILL-WISE just jumps at me and is jawdropping far exceeds the number of times that happens with LeBron. That's not saying LeBron isn't as good as Durant, it's saying IMO Durant is the more SKILLED player.
But still, you've managed to make it into a debate, so I think I'll change the post you quoted to a less debatable example.

Definition of skill: "competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity"

LeBron is more skilled than Durant at everything except shooting. It's really that simple. That includes rebounding, defense (laughable you even compared the two in this category), ball handling, passing, etc.

Bron is not really a better rebounder then Durant. They are about equal.

They are both great at finishing at the basket.

Durant shoots better, Bron passes better and is a superior ball handler.

James also plays better defense.

Neither has great post game.

karacha wrote:Bron is not really a better rebounder then Durant. They are about equal.

They are both great at finishing at the basket.

Durant shoots better, Bron passes better and is a superior ball handler.

James also plays better defense.

Neither has great post game.

I think LeBron is the superior rebounder. He averaged nearly 10 rpg in the playoffs playing out of position a large portion of the time. Durant averaged about 7.6 rpg which is still solid but not nearly as good as LeBron. In the finals, LeBron averaged over 10 rpg to Durant's 6.

LeBron's post game >>>> Durant's post game.

puffyusaf#2 wrote:

therealdeal wrote:*sigh*

I'll get back to this tomorrow some time. It's late and this is going to take some time.

No matter how many times you run around the circle you will never find its beginning nor its end.
The faster you run around that cirlce the more you look like dog chasing its tail my friend.
-Puffy

You're like some kind of wiser, more awesome yoda.