No one likes the Sky Hook

Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby Juronimo on Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:15 pm

Puffy, most of today's big men can't even do basic big man stuff, like counters, up and unders, and knowing which way to go based on where the defender is playing them, and four of them that can are way north of 30 (Pau, Dirk, Duncan, KG). If today's bigs can't even to basic big man stuff, how are they going to master Kareem's hook? I just don't see it, not with this crew of big men in the NBA. We don't have an Ewing or Robinson skill wise among today's big men.

Bynum might have had a shot had he not had such bad knees. Out of today's bigs that are in their prime, I think Marc Gasol is the only big man that has a good enough feel for the game to be able to learn that shot and be effective with it and is also in their prime.

Personally, I would love to see a big man learn that shot and really dedicate himself to his craft the way Kareem did. I'd love to be proven wrong. I'm tired of seeing inept play from 7 foot stiffs that we've had to endure for that last 10 years, or 6'11" guys who think they're shooting guards.
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby trodgers on Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:50 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
trodgers wrote:Roo; it was an exhibition game - boys all-stars vs. girls. I always wanted to take the underhand three; golden opportunity. I hit the rim, FWIW.


:man10:

I played with a guy who went on to play in college way back in the day for a small school in Oregon. They were beating Gonzaga and John Stockton.... he had over 40 in the game and was dribbling out the final 15 seconds of a 20 point victory and tossed up a Globetrotters hook from nearly half court and it went in..... fight ensued... :man10:

He practiced the hook shot every practice and hit them quite a bit.......

Interesting part of this is that he played for the Trailblazers for a season and is now the Coach of that small college team..... and had Stockton come to his BB camp a few summers ago....

I'm not surprised. :man10:
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby halekulani on Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:14 pm

Rooscooter wrote:The Skyhook is a very difficult shot to develop. Kareem took a number of years to develop it and he had all of the mental and physical tools necessary to do it.

I'm not sure I buy the argument that players think it's old fashioned or that they would not look cool shooting it.... cooler is making big money because you have an advantage on everyone and even cooler yet is extending your career with a shot like this. It's a lack of dedication and the fact that almost no one can teach it because no one knows how at the lower levels anymore.

Rule changes and the evolution of the center position to essentially a second PF on the floor has a lot to do with it as well. Traditional post up offenses are a thing of the past.... eggs and chickens IMHO... traditional centers are a thing of the past as well. In the last 20 years you have maybe 3 or 4 true back to the basket centers who have played at this level..... It's a lost position.

qft

game theory is completely different
you want a big who can pick n roll or pick and pop
and to be honest, any shot created with ball movement is a more efficient shot than isolation

centers might not have an elite post game anymore, but they are sacrificing specialization for versatility
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby therealdeal on Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:34 am

Weezy wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Are players going to really tell me though that the incredible diversity of Hakeem's post game wasn't sexy? That was maybe the most fun for me to watch besides Kobe in the last 25 years. His footwork was amazing. Nobody wants to play like that? Why not?


I think that even Hakeem now, played in his prime too long ago for these players coming in to have watched him growing up. I'm 30, I can barely remember watching him during his title runs because it was almost 20 years ago now. Kids coming in now or even 25 year olds aren't going to vividly remember the guy unless they grew up watching tape and being students of the game. I think players that were really using hook shots as weapons date back to the 80's and 70's at the soonest now. That doesn't sound like a long time ago, but if you think about it, it really is. And maybe I'm cynical about a lot of today's players, but I think another reason players don't "want to play like" Hakeem, is they don't want to put in the work. If you're big and super athletic, why not just dunk. That's what we have in Dwight Howard and Blake Griffin, and that's what has been celebrated above everything else thanks to stuff like ESPN.

I suppose that's true. I don't know any NBA players right now, so it's hard for me to say but I feel like they HAVE to have seen some footage of Hakeem right? I mean you're right they weren't growing up watching him, but at some point a coach or somebody had to show them film of Dream right?

Do we not have students anymore? Kobe takes shots that he literally watched Elgin or West take back in the 60s. Kareem developed his Sky Hook after his coaches had him practice the George Mikan drill... Do we not have anybody else like that? I hope Kobe can teach Randle to be that way because I see a lot of raw talent in that kid. He's another player that could really use a nice hook shot in the lane. With his size if he can square his shoulders up not many guys will have the reach to get to a hook if he gets it right.

I don't know. I guess Jordan and Kobe have really skewed the League in the last few years. Everyone wants to be a guard. I've always enjoyed post game more than most people, but now it's making me feel like a dinosaur. :man10:
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby jlkr on Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:06 am

Hakeem is the god of post footwork. Not just because he was the master in his prime, but also because he apparently has a good reputation for teaching it as well. Everybody who's anybody has gone to Houston to work with him during the offseason. It's one thing to have the footwork, but it's another thing to teach it and for the learner to practice it. Example, McHale's footwork was fantastic, drove me nuts whenever I was watching Lakers-Celtics games in the 80's, but he doesn't seem to be able to impart that knowledge. Barkley's footwork was excellent too, he used his footwork with his size to create space to operate in. Which is why he was so effective at 6-5. But I don't see him teaching it.
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby lakerfan2 on Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:31 am

jlkr wrote:Hakeem is the god of post footwork. Not just because he was the master in his prime, but also because he apparently has a good reputation for teaching it as well. Everybody who's anybody has gone to Houston to work with him during the offseason. It's one thing to have the footwork, but it's another thing to teach it and for the learner to practice it. Example, McHale's footwork was fantastic, drove me nuts whenever I was watching Lakers-Celtics games in the 80's, but he doesn't seem to be able to impart that knowledge. Barkley's footwork was excellent too, he used his footwork with his size to create space to operate in. Which is why he was so effective at 6-5. But I don't see him teaching it.


Well, hasn't worked for Dwight. :man10:
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby therealdeal on Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:33 am

jlkr wrote:Hakeem is the god of post footwork. Not just because he was the master in his prime, but also because he apparently has a good reputation for teaching it as well. Everybody who's anybody has gone to Houston to work with him during the offseason. It's one thing to have the footwork, but it's another thing to teach it and for the learner to practice it. Example, McHale's footwork was fantastic, drove me nuts whenever I was watching Lakers-Celtics games in the 80's, but he doesn't seem to be able to impart that knowledge. Barkley's footwork was excellent too, he used his footwork with his size to create space to operate in. Which is why he was so effective at 6-5. But I don't see him teaching it.

I agree... So why aren't there more guys playing in the post? :man10:

Amar'e Stoudemire looked better after practicing with Dream. LeBron has a reliable post game now after practicing with him. Kobe has been doing it for years and Kobe has the best post game in the League. So why isn't there a 6'10" guy who can go to work down low like Dream did once or twice a game? The most you see now is an up and under and once in a blue moon and everyone goes "Wow! Great post move!" but really it's a pretty rudimentary post move. It's just that nobody uses the post anymore.
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:59 am

Juronimo wrote:Puffy, most of today's big men can't even do basic big man stuff, like counters, up and unders, and knowing which way to go based on where the defender is playing them, and four of them that can are way north of 30 (Pau, Dirk, Duncan, KG). If today's bigs can't even to basic big man stuff, how are they going to master Kareem's hook? I just don't see it, not with this crew of big men in the NBA. We don't have an Ewing or Robinson skill wise among today's big men.

Bynum might have had a shot had he not had such bad knees. Out of today's bigs that are in their prime, I think Marc Gasol is the only big man that has a good enough feel for the game to be able to learn that shot and be effective with it and is also in their prime.

Personally, I would love to see a big man learn that shot and really dedicate himself to his craft the way Kareem did. I'd love to be proven wrong. I'm tired of seeing inept play from 7 foot stiffs that we've had to endure for that last 10 years, or 6'11" guys who think they're shooting guards.


J,

Im not arguing against that at all. My point got lost in the specialness that was LGL's responses. All my point was is that 1) fundamentally the sky hook isn't a hard shot, 2)With the right skillset (Ie McGee was my example of choice) a player could learn to do it (actually I said master it) and 3) most being men today don't think its flashy/sexy enough to learn it. Yes, you guys are absolutely right the lack of fundamentals in the post by todays 3/4/5's is disappointing to say the least especially when some of the best post players are guards now. Your list of players I would agree with as well but I chose Mcgee because he is young and has an extremely high ceiling. It was just ironic that Doc found an article talking about him working on this very shot. I personally think if they can get him to slow down and think the game through he may evolve into the best center in the NBA or one of the best for sure. I just thought of another name that could probably learn and utilize the hook in Anthony Davis. Hopefully someone will come back and dominate the center position and make back to the basket skills a priority again.
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:54 pm

I see two factors among several others which contributed to the decline of the post game C.

1) Shaq - Once the dominant, back to the basket Cs from the 80's slowed down, Shaq became the most recognizable figure at the C position. He was from the hip hop generation and loved to show up guys with his dunks and power. He was also immensely popular, especially after winning 3 rings with the Lakers. Kids looked up to him and emulated him.

2) Rule changes - The NBA has been instituting rules to favor the offense for years. Eliminating hand checks and pretty much not allowing any contact. These rules favored athleticism and wing players because it gave these players more freedom to operate. Anytime you give these super athletes the space to operate without hand checks or much contact, you put the D in a vulnerable position. So the league continued to emphasize athleticism and wing players while devaluing the big man. The rules dictated which brand of ball would be more beneficial.

Having said that, I stilll don't get why bigs would not work on their games, despite the era. I just think the league is going through a weak era in bigs, not because of the factors i mentioned but because it's just one of those things that happen from time to time. And i think we will see our share of dominant bigs very soon. There will always be a place for a dominant big man no matter the era.
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby Weezy on Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:21 pm

therealdeal wrote:I don't know. I guess Jordan and Kobe have really skewed the League in the last few years. Everyone wants to be a guard. I've always enjoyed post game more than most people, but now it's making me feel like a dinosaur. :man10:


I enjoy great post play as well, it's just rare these days. I would say a guy like Shaq, didn't even have the most polished post play, but compared to most centers today his post game looks brilliant. Because of having basic moves like a drop step, pump fake up and under, spin moves to hook shots, not complicated stuff at all. Yes, he would rather dunk than anything else, but he also had some really nice post moves and was nimble for his size.

I stumbled across this video the other day, and it amazed me, because it's just an exhibition game and look at some of the moves Shaq pulls off. (Bonus, Chick's commentary, Byron Scott makes some nice plays, fisher makes some nice plays, and there is some absolutely terrific passing all around most teams today can't seem to pull off in NON-exhibition settings)



It's almost like guys aren't mentally capable of stuff like this anymore. I don't know if they aren't taught it young enough, or if they don't want to put in the work. Or, like you say everyone wants to be a guard and even future centers grow up wanting to play like Jordan, Kobe, LeBron and now Durant. I'd love to see true post game come back, there are some guys today that do have it or at least the tools. I don't know what it's going to take to have it come back on a larger scale though. The rule changes point LGL just posted, taking away hand checking and allowing steam rolling to the hoop to be rewarded with free throws more often than not, seems to have some merit.
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby therealdeal on Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:57 pm

Man I miss Chick. It's always a tug at the heartstrings when I hear him in videos.

Shaq is a little underrated nowadays when it comes to his actual post game. He wasn't great, but he actually had an alright touch around the rim. He didn't do a lot of change of direction like Hakeem, he just had his 3-4 moves and he'd do them and you'd move out of the way because he was just too dang big. He had a nice little flip shot with his right hand that he could usually get to.
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby halekulani on Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:35 pm

i like how you're saying shaq is underrated and then say his post game "wasn't great" and he had an "alright touch around the rim"
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby therealdeal on Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:40 pm

halekulani wrote:i like how you're saying shaq is underrated and then say his post game "wasn't great" and he had an "alright touch around the rim"

Yep. Most assume all he did was bully his way to the rim with no grace. But he actually had an alright touch around the rim.
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:30 pm

Yup, Shaq had a pretty polished post game. It just wasn't effective outside of 8-10 feet. And he did show some touch at times with his turn around hook. But if he got to within 5 feet of the basket, it was a dunk. So the power game and dunks were a huge part of his game and persona. And he was also amazingly nimble for his size.
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby John3:16 on Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:40 pm

Lets Go Lakers wrote:I see two factors among several others which contributed to the decline of the post game C.

1) Shaq - Once the dominant, back to the basket Cs from the 80's slowed down, Shaq became the most recognizable figure at the C position. He was from the hip hop generation and loved to show up guys with his dunks and power. He was also immensely popular, especially after winning 3 rings with the Lakers. Kids looked up to him and emulated him.


Huh? All this time I thought Shaq was a back to the basket center. I guess he was standing out at the 3 point line and taking his man off the dribble. If only they watched his waist.

Seriously, how did his dunks, power, and kids looking up to him contribute to the decline of the post game center? He had a little shot from 8 feet out and was a lot more then just dunks and power. Even he's been quoted as saying he's the last of the back to the basket centers. He's not, but he clearly viewed himself as that type of center you're saying he helped kill.
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:45 pm

Look at a guy like Westbrook. A big part of his game is he exploits creases in the D when bringing the ball up the court as a PG. A lot of his points come within the flow of the game and not from a drawn up play. He notices a crease and turns on the jets. Imagine how less effective he would be if defenders were allowed to hand check him and be physical with him starting from midcourt. The rules are catered for a guy like Westbrook. And that's also why I laugh when people say he could be a great 2 guard. He can be but the big advantage of playing PG is his ability to exploit defenses when brining up the ball up court and exploiting them. You take that away and you take away a big part of who he is.

And that's also why Wiggins went 1st and Gordon went 4th in this year's draft. Wing players with off the charts athleticism. Because the rules are so much in favor of the offensive player, you need guys who can defend these wing players. And since little contact is allowed, the ability to slide effortlessly along with quick feet are valued in a defender. Both of these guys have the athleticism to do that. That's why I think Clev keeps Wiggins. He can form a Miami version of Lebron/Wade in terms of being two great wing defenders who can suffocate you. Think MJ/Pip. Their suffocating D on the wing was just as important as their offensive games. Same with Lebron/Wade.
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby LTLakerFan on Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:37 pm

Did that answer your question John? :man10:
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby John3:16 on Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:04 pm

LTLakerFan wrote:Did that answer your question John? :man10:


I had to look and see if he was answering someone else. Surely wasn't a response to me. :man10: :man10:
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby LTLakerFan on Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:41 pm

Maybe it was another free basketball seminar. :man12:
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby TIME on Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:02 pm

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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:24 pm

therealdeal wrote:
jlkr wrote:Hakeem is the god of post footwork. Not just because he was the master in his prime, but also because he apparently has a good reputation for teaching it as well. Everybody who's anybody has gone to Houston to work with him during the offseason. It's one thing to have the footwork, but it's another thing to teach it and for the learner to practice it. Example, McHale's footwork was fantastic, drove me nuts whenever I was watching Lakers-Celtics games in the 80's, but he doesn't seem to be able to impart that knowledge. Barkley's footwork was excellent too, he used his footwork with his size to create space to operate in. Which is why he was so effective at 6-5. But I don't see him teaching it.

I agree... So why aren't there more guys playing in the post? :man10:

Amar'e Stoudemire looked better after practicing with Dream. LeBron has a reliable post game now after practicing with him. Kobe has been doing it for years and Kobe has the best post game in the League. So why isn't there a 6'10" guy who can go to work down low like Dream did once or twice a game? The most you see now is an up and under and once in a blue moon and everyone goes "Wow! Great post move!" but really it's a pretty rudimentary post move. It's just that nobody uses the post anymore.


I think it has more to do with we don't have bangers anymore. Marc Gasol and Zac Randolph will pound you but they will also sit out and shoot a lot. Most of these bigs seem afraid of the big boy contact. Im trying to think of one player in todays game who sets up on the block, gets his man on his hip, receives the ball with a proper outstretched arm and pounds it in with actual post moves? Like someone said earlier it seems like every one wants to be a SG these days.
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:53 pm

The rules discourage physical play. All of the rules are geared towards free flowing basketball with minimal contact. So if you have a big who likes to bang down low, you have a good chance of picking up offensive fouls quickly. If the rules allowed more physical play, the league would adjust. Flopping is a result of all these soft rules because players know almost any contact will get them 2 free throws. So there is an incentive to flop. Flopping is nothing but the players adjusting to the rules.

If the league allowed physical contact, there would be less flopping. Defenders would body up more and get up on players. There would be more hard fouls. And that's the part of basketball I miss. Physical play is a part of basketball. So what we are seeing in the NBA is not basketball at its purest form but a watered down version of the game where athleticism is over emphasized and physical play is penalized. I miss the days when every team had an enforcer and sent a message with a hard foul. That's the phsychological part of the game that's missing. I miss the days when defenders were allowed to body up. Now you touch anyone in perimeter and it's a foul. Sometimes you have to fight through contact in basketball. It's a part of the game. Also miss the good old box out. You just never see guys box out and push their man to the 3 pt line anymore. Players rely so much on length and athleticism.

I hope Silver finds a happy medium and loosens up the rules and allows more physical play. The rules have not prevented injuries. No matter how soft you make the rules, injuries will always happen.
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:11 pm

John3:16 wrote:
LTLakerFan wrote:Did that answer your question John? :man10:


I had to look and see if he was answering someone else. Surely wasn't a response to me. :man10: :man10:

athleticism! So the answer is NO you did not get an answer to your question because, simply put, Shaq was a horrible example to use in that point.

Now had he chose guys like Amare and Dirk then he may have had something. Hell, even guys like Pau and Timmy D cause they weren't traditional back to the basket guys but had amazing all around games. Using Shaq was simply a foot in mouth response. Shaq for all his laziness was one of the quickest giants to play the game. He had many moves on the block and he actually had a soft touch. His problem, as I said earlier, was he didn't work on his game because his skills were that much better than everyone else's. The way that poster put it you would think Shaq was nothing more than a bigger Dwight or Blake Griffin (although Blake really evolved his game this past season) getting all his points on pick and rolls and lobs. I wonder how some people actually watch these guys play when they respond.
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby trodgers on Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:25 am

LTLakerFan wrote:Did that answer your question John? :man10:

:man10: I'm glad I'm not the only one. I read that post and thought, "What the hell did that have to do with this thread?"
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Re: No one likes the Sky Hook

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:05 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
jlkr wrote:Hakeem is the god of post footwork. Not just because he was the master in his prime, but also because he apparently has a good reputation for teaching it as well. Everybody who's anybody has gone to Houston to work with him during the offseason. It's one thing to have the footwork, but it's another thing to teach it and for the learner to practice it. Example, McHale's footwork was fantastic, drove me nuts whenever I was watching Lakers-Celtics games in the 80's, but he doesn't seem to be able to impart that knowledge. Barkley's footwork was excellent too, he used his footwork with his size to create space to operate in. Which is why he was so effective at 6-5. But I don't see him teaching it.

I agree... So why aren't there more guys playing in the post? :man10:

Amar'e Stoudemire looked better after practicing with Dream. LeBron has a reliable post game now after practicing with him. Kobe has been doing it for years and Kobe has the best post game in the League. So why isn't there a 6'10" guy who can go to work down low like Dream did once or twice a game? The most you see now is an up and under and once in a blue moon and everyone goes "Wow! Great post move!" but really it's a pretty rudimentary post move. It's just that nobody uses the post anymore.


I think it has more to do with we don't have bangers anymore. Marc Gasol and Zac Randolph will pound you but they will also sit out and shoot a lot. Most of these bigs seem afraid of the big boy contact. Im trying to think of one player in todays game who sets up on the block, gets his man on his hip, receives the ball with a proper outstretched arm and pounds it in with actual post moves? Like someone said earlier it seems like every one wants to be a SG these days.

Z-Bo can bang down low pretty well. I think honestly the best post players in the game right now not counting Bynum are Kobe and maybe Brook Lopez when he's healthy. LeBron is actually pretty good now, not because he's so diverse, but he's got a little post shot that goes in fairly consistently so it's effective if uninspired. Maybe Cousins in Sacramento? I honestly can't think of anyone else.

The last real guy was Andrew. Since his knees disintegrated there's no more true post up Centers anymore.
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