Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby Punk-101 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:19 am

Here's my theory:

Everyone has an "immature button". Some people have many, others have a few or only one. There are certain things that transform an otherwise mature, fantastic human being into a jerk. Some people just cannot say "I was wrong"or "I'm sorry", but are otherwise Prince Charming. With me, it's competitiveness. I am one of the most caring and empathic people you'll ever meet, but during competition, I'd punch my grandma. Pau is 99% a flawless and amazing human being. His 1% immature button is his basketball ego. I don't mean to say that he's arrogant or that he has a super-inflated overconfident ego like a kobe or MJ. I just mean his value of himself in terms of basketball talent. Insulting that is his immature button.

Pau's decline began when Bynum emerged as the #2 option under Phil. Of course by definition, being moved from #2 to #3 option is going to lower one's numbers, I get that. Pau was professional and a team player, but there were still times where he was wildly inconsistent in terms of effort, heart and focus. He'd have lapses of terrible games and then a few amazing games like triple doubles or his perfect game. Phil is the master of egos and player personnel knowing their roles and feeling respected, so Pau was still somewhat engaged...for a while. As time grew on, even with Phil at the helm, we saw more and more head-scratching games. Was this due to fatigue and the 3 straight finals? Maybe a little bit.

Then Mike Brown comes to town. Pau is still the 3rd option, and he is still moderately engaged and effective. He had some nice games, and also plenty of head-scratchers. I think Brown really tried to play to Pau's ego and make him feel appreciated and involved, but it wasn't enough. It still irked Pau to be the 3rd option. Things got worse and worse for the team and for Pau. He had a fire under his butt in game 7 against Denver, so that showed that it wasn't about X's and O's or fatigue or anything other than something inside of him. When motivated and "wanting it" he was still a beast. Pau was used incorrectly by Brown, but not to the point that he couldn't be a beast when he was right between the ears and under the rib cage.

Now bring in MDA who makes Pau even more of a 3rd option and moves him even more out of his comfort zone. MDA isn't quite a master of managing egos, so Pau's immature button is getting smashed like crazy. By now, pau has turned into a passive-aggressive jerk. The reason is that he's a 3rd option, but it is not a valid justification IMO. Pau should be a 3rd option and he has shown to be able to still be very productive and engaged offensively and defensively, even in this offense (only a few games).

Pau CANNOT be a 3rd option any longer. His immature button is worn out and he's past the breaking point. He's 99% still a fantastic guy in all other facets of personality and life. The past few years have not been about fatigue or girlfriend issues, or coaches, or being used improperly. Those factors have played some part, for sure. The biggest factor IMO, has been the "3rd option immature button" that was pushed gently by Phil, more vigorously by Mike Brown, and now smashed by MDA. Pau's like Popeye, "That's all I can stands. I can't stands no more!"

So who is the bad guy? Is it the coaches for making him the 3rd option or by using him incorrectly? No. Pau is still capable of amazing basketball even in MDA's system, even as a 3rd option. It's on him!
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby Doc Brown on Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:42 am

Punk that was a great post. :bow: :bow:
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby TIME on Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:21 pm

Punk-101 wrote:Everyone has an "immature button".


Interesting concept that would explain a lot.

My immature button is when certain unnamed posters hit the submit button. :man12:
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:36 pm

Pau's decline began when Bynum emerged as the #2 option under Phil. Of course by definition, being moved from #2 to #3 option is going to lower one's numbers,


I don't think this part is true. Phil said something last season about how the Lakers made a mistake making Bynum the #2 over Pau so there was a never a time when Bynum was considered the #2 option with Phil and Pau in the mix. Also Pau actually played super well in Phil's final season, it was just the disastrous playoffs he had that started his downfall. There was that whole thing about him cheating on his girlfriend or something? I can't even remember what happened anymore.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby Punk-101 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:57 pm

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:
Pau's decline began when Bynum emerged as the #2 option under Phil. Of course by definition, being moved from #2 to #3 option is going to lower one's numbers,


I don't think this part is true. Phil said something last season about how the Lakers made a mistake making Bynum the #2 over Pau so there was a never a time when Bynum was considered the #2 option with Phil and Pau in the mix. Also Pau actually played super well in Phil's final season, it was just the disastrous playoffs he had that started his downfall. There was that whole thing about him cheating on his girlfriend or something? I can't even remember what happened anymore.

True. There wasn't a BOOM #2 --->#3 that happened under Phil. But gradually as Bynum emerged, Pau went from #2->2b->2b-lite->#3. It was a gradual decline, that's why Pau still had good games fairly consistently. Even during the gradual 2b days there were periods of time where Pau made us think; "WTF is wrong with him" even before the playoffs. I think by the playoffs he was #3, or at least 2b/#3.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby lakersin4 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:08 pm

I wonder how much of Bynum becoming the #2 came from upstairs? Phil saying it was a mistake lets you know it probably wasn't his idea.. Wouldn't doubt if it was Jim driving up Bynum's value for the eventual Dwight trade.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby Helljumper on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:19 pm

lakersin4 wrote:I wonder how much of Bynum becoming the #2 came from upstairs? Phil saying it was a mistake lets you know it probably wasn't his idea.. Wouldn't doubt if it was Jim driving up Bynum's value for the eventual Dwight trade.


I think it has more to do with the fact that Bynum simply stepped up and was playing significantly better than Pau since the 2011 playoffs.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby lakersin4 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:55 pm

True.. I just don't see why Phil would say it was a mistake if that's the case.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby earvinfr on Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:59 pm

I can't wait for the day when I can't access clublakers because site is down following Gasol's trade
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby Helljumper on Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:01 pm

lakersin4 wrote:True.. I just don't see why Phil would say it was a mistake if that's the case.


Because he was wrong.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:14 pm

Honestly I think it just had more to do with the fact that Bynum didn't get hurt last season so he was able to take on more responsibility. We were sort of fortunate in a way that Bynum wasn't able to handle heavy minutes from 08-10 because Pau+Odom always worked better and having Bynum as a defensive body was his best asset at the time.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby XXIV on Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:26 pm

earvinfr wrote:I can't wait for the day when I can't access clublakers because site is down following Gasol's trade


Well when Pau was the #2 it lead to three straight finals appearances (along with two chips), when Bynum was the #2 we got bounced in the second round in a very humiliating manner.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby 432J on Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:12 pm

karacha wrote:It's not like he was playing his best for Phil either.

honestly, pau's game has noticeably started sucking since phil's left after 10-11
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby MC on Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:42 am

^
Bynum stepped up for sure over the 2 years but the mistake was trying to run the ball thru a 1 dimensional player offensively as a #2 option while letting the other check out mentally.

Until Bynum learns how to pass efficiently from the post he is still just a very nice complimentary player. That is something Gasol has always, and will always have on Bynum that most fans just don;t appreciate. It's not just about direct assists too, it's about how a team has to help, the hockey assist that starts ball movement........ little things that Jackson knew Pau just is better at when thinking about playing inside out basketball....... too bad some of that are not tracked statistically so majority of fans could actually see the difference from a different view.

-----

432J wrote:
karacha wrote:It's not like he was playing his best for Phil either.

honestly, pau's game has noticeably started sucking since phil's left after 10-11


exactly......... there should be some natural decline given his age and the amount of ball played in a 5 year span as the primary big but it should not be like one walked off a cliff....... that is all coaching IMO.

Another point is his play for Spain right smack in the middle of these last 2 years with the Lakers. He can still play IF he has a coach and staff that show they believe in his skill sets........ these last 2 staffs, IMO most likely due to the direction set by the 2 Buss bozos right now, have shown the opposite to that so the results are not exactly mind blowing to me.........

People not seeing this is mind blowing though, once he's traded his play will pick up big time IMO....... than I'm curious to what the excuses will be while the Lakers still try and "figure" it out post Jackson.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby D.B. Cooper on Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:11 am

432J wrote:
karacha wrote:It's not like he was playing his best for Phil either.

honestly, pau's game has noticeably started sucking since phil's left after 10-11

Wrong!
It started sucking even when Philip was here. It was during the Pau, Shannon Brown, girlfriend rumors.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby therealdeal on Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:18 am

432J wrote:
karacha wrote:It's not like he was playing his best for Phil either.

honestly, pau's game has noticeably started sucking since phil's left after 10-11

No it didn't, it started in the 2011 playoffs.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby therealdeal on Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:18 am

432J wrote:
karacha wrote:It's not like he was playing his best for Phil either.

honestly, pau's game has noticeably started sucking since phil's left after 10-11

No it didn't, it started in the 2011 playoffs.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby MC on Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:42 am

Coop /real - and the rest of the Lakers in the 2011 playoffs didn't have a serious drop in play? just Gasol during that run right?

Sure there has been a drop off since during the final 20 games leading into the 2011 playoffs........... after playing how many games over a 3 year span? not many teams in the history of the league have not had a drop off after that much basketball.........

The shocker was the cliff drop and that happened post Jackson............ there is a difference between natural decline and dropping off a cliff all-together.

This is all FO/coaching IMO......... they openly moved in a different direction when they tried trading him, brought in 2 coaches with a philosophy that does not fit a size orientated team that have openly shown they could care less about getting the guy in any sort of rhythm or part within their core philosophy ..... while at the same time getting older while keeping a big they have openly shunned?

can you say bi-polar

not Gasol

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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby Lakeshow24 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:02 am

I wholeheartedly agree with Punk's post. That was some great analysis there and pretty much sums up the problems with Pau. I'd only add perhaps some butthurt feelings over all the trade rumors the past couple seasons.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby MC on Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:31 am

Punk - in an ideal world I would agree with you here but reality is a coach has a responsibility to maximize and play to the strengths of it's roster............ outside of 20 odd games playing within the Princeton this team has NOT been playing to it's feature strength and that is allllllllllllllll coaching/FO philosophy.

Although I agree about the effort and heart with Gasol the real issue was the force feeding of Bynum as a second option onto Jackson by the FO (he's said as much and has openly questioned that philosophical move) and with good reason. As good as Bynum was getting his major flaw that would prevent you from running an offense threw him was his ability to pass and make decisions out of the post....same issue Howard has too. These guys are really, really, really good complimentary players, they both have major flaws to their game. Gasol out these 3 was the only big that presented a triple threat from the post and Jackson knew it. That doesn't show up in boxscores so most fans don't understand just how important that is to run inside out basketball

Now 2 years later with further alienating a player as they go along than solely blaming the player for having to desire is disingenuous at best............ most human beings that are treated in this manner check out....... Gasol believe it or not is human and not a bunch of pixels on 2k13 and you out of all people should appreciate the psychology involved.

Everyone and their mother knows Gasol needed delicate probing mentally to get his best......... letting a coaching staff off the hook and a FO off the hook for loosing the player in the manner they went about things while keeping him is the equivalent of scratching the surface of the real issue these days with the Lakers.

Believe it or not every coach in the NBA is responsible for understanding the psychology of their players and the buttons they need to press to squeeze out what they have....... the ones that don't get canned a lot and buy new homes in new cities every couple of years.

At this point Gasol has to go, there is no doubt about it but lets not let the FO and coaching selections wipe their hands clean of what was clearly mis-handled in a very flawed and irresponsible manner. If you do Howard will be the next big that can't play anymore and is not worth the money based on a complete miss-use by very poor coaching using piss poor basketball schemes relative to their roster. MDA and this FO can only hide behind the Gasol excuse for so long

MDA's history with a well balanced roster is not good and it eventually got him fired twice now..... on his way to a third; it's just a matter of when....... the last 2 hires where questionable fits right from the start and now that it hasn't panned out it's the roster? now that's some short sighted classic stuff right there.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby Punk-101 on Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:45 am

I think Roos mentioned the chicken/egg argument in a previous thread. Pau didn't go from option #2 to #3 to on the bench in the 4th over the past 2 years in three distinct steps. Phil had him and Bynum in relatively equal roles as 2a and 2b. I think Bynum earned the right to be in that position, and I don't think it was unfair to Gasol.

Pau then started a steady decline from 2b to 3 to sometimes 4. It was his poor attitude and poor play from the very beginning, even with Phil that led to coaches "alienating" him. His play forced their hand. There were still PLENTY of opportunities for Pau as the clear #2 with Bynum injured or in foul trouble or with the second unit. Pau was wildly inconsistent. He had some great games and he had a lot of stinkers where he was obviously not there mentally. Despite having plenty of opportunities to be the #2, the very idea of Bynum possibly being ahead of him in the pecking order messed with his psychology and started the downward spiral.

You argument is that the coaches needed to cater to that primadonda attitude to make it work? I think the coaches see the talent they have and would love to use Pau most effectively, but Pau's attitude has caused such poor play that he has made himself a player that doesn't deserve to be catered to because when they try to feature him in his comfort zones, he still stinks it up. The only way to get the best out of him would be to make him the clear #2 option at all times. I don't think any coach wants a player like that on his team.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby nameant on Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:12 am

Dood is basically our team cancer at this point.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby Psychobroker on Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:58 pm

Pau was horrid to start the game yesterday; was a big reason why we started so slow ... go back and watch him on loose balls, rebounds and the defensive end. He's AWFUL. Had Clark been out there to start, we might have avoided the early hole. :disagree:
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby The Rock on Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:35 pm

The dude averaged 5 rebounds a game in an entire playoff series when he got swept in 04. 5!!! Inexcuseable. He's reverted back to the soft version of himself.
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Re: Pau Gasol and Mike D'Antoni are not on the same page

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:37 pm

TIME wrote:
Punk-101 wrote:Everyone has an "immature button".


Interesting concept that would explain a lot.

My immature button is when certain unnamed posters hit the submit button. :man12:


HEY!!.... I'm sure he/she resents that remark..... :man12:
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