Pau Thread: Surgery a success; now rehab & rest for 12 weeks

I think he still has the mid-range shot. You don't just forget how to shoot, but he wasn't exactly comfortable out there. I'll give him a pass there.


About him being slower... yes. This is 100% accurate. He's noticeably slower now. This is one of the reasons his team D is not very good this season. His man D is OK for the most part. Not great, but alright. Sometimes he gives his opponent too much space, but that might be easy to fix, I don't know...

We should really be waiting on any personnel talk until we see a coach here who actually utilizes the strengths of his players. I've bashed on Pau plenty beginning with that last run with Phil. But I love the lineup we have and I want to let this team have their shot.

If Phil comes back i'm hopeful Pau turns things around. When Phil left Pau had personal issues that unfortunately showed on the court and he admitted that. Last season was a disaster in general because i think they we're all beat up from the short season. I say let this team ride it out and if Pau plays small again the $19 million in his last year will be attractive to a lot of teams trying to clear cap space.

JGC wrote:
Plus, I don't think Texas Lakers Fan was saying that Pau is a defensive juggernaut. He was just saying that he can't be playing horribly defensively, if through 6 games his opponents have generally been held in check. Ironic I've seen some of these posters write stat only posts before... so it looks like stats are only an issue or invalid when it doesn't support ones arguments. Bummer.

his box score stats doesn't show the countless times he doesn't provide proper help D on PnR, this is why PG are having career nights against this team and wreak havoc when they get in the paint. Howard is still getting burned the same way as Bynum when he helps on PnR, Pau doesn't help the helper. He still settles for jump shots when Howard is out of the game. His D is bad where it counts the PnR game and helping on guard penetrating. His boxscore show any of this? This was the same problem when Phil was here too

JGC wrote:I love how people completely dismiss stats as if they have absolutely no value and instead rely on the old reliable "but i watch the games!" argument. Well, so does Texas Laker Fan and he has some data to back up and support his observation.

Really he does? Does the stats he used show that Pau was on the floor, guarding that guy, every time he shot the ball? Was Pau playing every minute, that that person was on the floor too? Was Pau guarding Millsap every time he shot the ball? How about Maxiell? Can you prove any of that by just looking at the box score? No you can't. Pau wasn't guarding those guys ever time they shot the ball, every shot wasn't taken on Pau. Does it show the times Pau had to switch onto another guy and they took a shot on him? No, sorry. Does it show the shooting percentage for the times Pau was supposed to rotate over and that man scored? Try again. Unless you want to go through every play that those players shot and see if Pau was guarding them and then figure in the blow assignments by Pau on rotations, feel free, otherwise stating so and so did this isn't very accurate.

(Doesn't make his observation right, but it makes his vantage point a little stronger). How come no one is saying "Ok Hollinger" or "look at all the information you got from the box score" in the thread about Kobe shooting over 50% in 4 straight games?

You're trying to hard and your Kobe hate is coming out. If he's shooting over 50% OBVIOUSLY he's doing good. Were talking about defensive rotations, boxing out, etc. not did he or did he not make a basket.

It is clear to me that people will accuse others of being a box score junkie, when they have nothing but "i watch games" to lean on.

I find this funny, all TLF has is a broad sense through a box score that leaves out of ton of information. I gave specific examples, it's on video FFS, I'm not leaning on anything, if you watch the games you will see this, and you see things you see in a box score. But a person that just looks at the box score and doesn't watch the games, has a better idea of what is going on? Don't think so.

Plus, I don't think Texas Lakers Fan was saying that Pau is a defensive juggernaut. He was just saying that he can't be playing horribly defensively, if through 6 games his opponents have generally been held in check. Ironic I've seen some of these posters write stat only posts before... so it looks like stats are only an issue or invalid when it doesn't support ones arguments. Bummer.

Does this answer the....

How many missed rotations Pau has had this season? Times he hasn't boxed out for a rebound? Times he gets burnt on the pick and roll? Never helps the helper? Constantly outhustled for 50/50 balls?

Instead of taking backhanded shots at people, why don't you answer these questions.......

why are people still using the rhetoric that Pau will get better? He's has gotten worse every year now for the last 3 yrs and we throw a whole bunch of excuses his way. When is that gona end? If mgmt. can see that its time to move on (cp3 trade) why do people still believe? I'm a big Pau fan too but writing's on the wall, he's declining and its not subtle. His regular season stats are of the norm but we already know what happens come playoff time....just my own personal feeling/opinion but Pau has run out of excuses to me

Slow on rotations... Slow changing end to end... It's just age plus wear and tear. Gasol also is not aggressive as much on the low block against defenders who have no business of checking him. That to me is puzzling. One on one, he does utilize his lenght well to make it difficult for whoever he is covering.

Again,

Pau 28/67 .418 FG
Other teams starting PFs 23/59 .389 FG



Other teams starting PG+SG+SF combined against LA in these 5 games (3 players/12)

199 pts
39.8 pts/game
Opponets are averaging 99 pts/game

3 players out of 12 are averaging almost half of the points of their team against the Lakers and have in mind that the pistons only scored 11 pts (0+2+9)

Edit,

btw, golden state game,

starting PF - David Lee 3/10 10pts
starting PG-SG-SF 40 pts, Rest of the team 37 pts

Doc Brown wrote:

Texas Lakers Fan wrote:These are the guys Pau has guarded this year and what they did against him.

Elton Brand - 8 points, 3/10 FG.
LeMarcus Aldridge - 19 points, 9/20 FG.
Blake Griffin - 15 points, 6/15 FG.
Jason Maxiell - 8 points, 3-7 FG.
Paul Milsap - 7 points 2-7 FG.
David Lee - 10 points, 3-10 FG.

Total - 67 points, 26-69 FG.

Average - 11.1 points, 37.6 FG%.

Yeah Pau is so horrible defensively.

Look at all that information you got from the box score, I'm glad they have that tool available for you to give such an in depth analysis of what Pau does on defense.....

Could you go back to that box score feature, which by the way is packed with all the information you need to make a solid case for Pau's defensive ability, and tell me how many rotations he's messed up not only this season, but last season? How many rebounds he's given up by standing and watching? How many open layups other teams have gotten because he's failed to step in? Does it tell you about him having no lateral quickness to defend the pick and roll or the more athletic 4's in the game?

While you gather all that information up from the box score, I'll go back to watching the actual games, the videos of him CLEARLY being a liability on defense and then we will reconvene and you will tell me the basic, Pau held this dude to so and so from the field......end of your argument, and I will give you what you are supposed to see with your eyes that a box score will never tell you.

Ohh and.....Yea Pau is horrible defensively
(Gotta make sure I throw those in there so it looks like the previous statement was completely wrong and a joke)

THIS x1000

For anyone with eyes and some understanding of basketball, it should be MORE THAN OBVIOUS that Pau's D has been very bad most of the time. He's had some decent stretches, some good sequences, maybe even a solid game (vs Clippers), but overall he's been BAD. Many times he's been straight up terrible.
He's at his worst on PnR D & on help D. You need to re-watch the games or at least watch Coach Nick's video if you have failed to see this. It's just so obvious.

Those stats posted by TLF and Bystander are as misleading as it gets.

JCG, since you clearly love bashing Kobe, did you think his D was great vs GS? I didn't. I thought he gave up a bunch of wide open shots that just didn't happen to fall. But hey, Klay Thompson was 6-16! Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Kobe's D was actually very good! I mean, box score stats are more than valid right?
Who says Steve Blake and Darious Morris aren't great defensive players? They got Stephen Curry and Jarred Jack to shoot a combined 7-20!

You see how flawed those stats are in showing what actually went on in games?

IMO this is part of a bigger problem: fans let particular stats (that can be extremely misleading) change their own perspective on games they've actually watched! That can even happen while the game is being played.

Those stats posted by TLF and Bystander are as misleading as it gets.

Enlighten me why those stats show anything but most of the points this team allow come from the perimeter players. Also, tell me why it's Pau's fault.

Pau is not an elite defender. He's above average man to man and not quick enough to be a good help defender. Still, the problem is when Pau isn't playing good on offense to compensate his bad days on D.

He's still way better than people give him credit under a proper system and with a team focused on winning but whinning.

bystander wrote:

Those stats posted by TLF and Bystander are as misleading as it gets.

Enlighten me why those stats show anything but most of the points this team allow come from the perimeter players. Also, tell me why it's Pau's fault.

Pau is not an elite defender. He's above average man to man and not quick enough to be a good help defender. Still, the problem is when Pau isn't playing good on offense to compensate his bad days on D.

He's still way better than people give him credit under a proper system and with a team focused on winning but whinning.

1) How often are those perimeter players scoring on 1 on 1 situations? Not that often. They usually get theirs after PnR or after moving (themselves and the ball) around and making the D react and adjust. Our biggest problem, and it's a key variable for all defenses, is rotating. Pau has been the weakest link on our team D, mainly because he's been even slower than usual rotating. You can see examples of this in every game, even in nba.com highlights.. His P&R D and his help D are beyond horrid. He never shows fast enough / hard enough, he's not good at hedging, he doesn't play the passing lanes effectively, he doesn't recover, no 2nd effort, no hard contests, nothing. He just shrugs.
All of the good P&R team's are going to go after Pau, and they will kill us. The Heat? Forget about it. Same with OKC, Spurs, Clippers (yeah Ginger didn't score much, but CP3 flat out destroyed us -it's not just about points, it's about creating mismatches, making guys rotate and finding open shooters, etc- he had like 15 assists..), etc. But hey, those are only the team's that we're facing in the playoffs!


2) System talk. I actually agree with the idea that MB's defensive concepts don't work as well with slow big men like Pau. He's just too slow to show effectively and to help out the helper. He's soft, he doesn't box out like he should, he doesn't contest agressively (to be fair, there are very few things in very rare cases he does 'agressively'), there's no 2nd effort coming from him.
Also, I don't doubt team chemistry and just the negative aura surrounding the team since the start of pre-season under Mike Brown had an effect on everyone's level of energy and effort.
I'm hopeful that with the proper coach and a more suited-to-our-personnel system, Pau's weakenesses on D are more effectively hidden, he's able to contribute and not be such a weak (!) link to our team D.

Still, there are conceptual variables and then there's a different, yet extremely key, one: effort. And there's no denying that Pau's effort has been GARBAGE 90% of the time, especially on D. Anyone watching the games (and without bias) should be aware of that, and disappointed.
Even if Phil comes back, I still think that 2010 Pau is gone, and in most games we'll be seeing a passive Pau rather than an agressive Pau. At least that's been the norm since 2011.

So, Pau doesn't give any effort (even averaging double-double) and is awful in PNR and team help. Perimeter player against LA rarely score on 1 on 1. FWIW Opponents are 12 in the league against us in 3pts FG. 10th in assists and 8th on reboudes. That looks like a poor entire team effort, but you only focus on Pau as the worse of all.

Pau hasn't been great on D, ok, but he's not that bad and you can't blame him for the 2-4 start. Fair criticism is ok, those big words that came every single time Lakers had a bad time but rarely are spoken when Lakers are winning are so old i don't know why i'm speaking about this once again.

^^^^ he is not worth 19 million. Not even close. And he is not a playoff performer, not by a long shot. We have only one goal. And he fades when we need him most. No arguing that. We would be better with Pieces. Like if Kahn still wants Love, Gasol, and Rubio. We get 2 or 3 of Mike Williams, Peck, Chase, or Barea. Dwight with Williams and Buddinger would be a great future, and could win now, as those guys space the floor and can finish for Nash and Kobe in transition.

I hate Josh Smith -- he can't shoot and takes dumb shots. Him and Ron on the same team would make me puke.

But there are options for Gasol -- if we accept that he is no longer elite and can add young, athletic guys who mesh with Dwight, Kobe, and Nash.

Gasol doesn't play hard most nights and that is unacceptable.

karacha wrote:I'll give him a pass there.

We're 3 years into giving him a pass....

We have no floor balance with he and MWP on the floor and we have no floor spacers either. I've been for trading him, mainly because he's the only asset we have that can bring a decent return, for a year now because of our imbalanced team.

As his play declines and as he's asked to more and more that he's obviously uncomfortable doing it will only get worse.

Anyone with their eyes open can see he's lost on defense and tentative on offense.

The play where he had the ball 4 feet from the hoop with a 6'4" guard on him and he passed to Hill under the basket who got fouled and missed one of two is a prime example of what I'm talking about.... he made a quick and difficult pass to an open player.... everyone loves that about him...... here's the problem, he shouldn't have made a pass to a poor finisher when he had the advantage he did with his skill set...... while it looks smart it really wasn't. He's been in this fog of trying to be a facilitator for 2 years now and it's obvious it isn't working.

Teams will pack it in on Howard and force him and MWP to beat them over the top. On defense they will make him the rotator just like last year because his lateral speed has declined quite a bit and he is always indecisive on that end of the floor it seems.

He's still a 17 and 10 guy in this league and if we had a real SF it may make things OK with he and Howard in the lineup at the same time.... but it's becoming painfully obvious that those two on the floor at the same time is killing us offensively.

bystander wrote:So, Pau doesn't give any effort (even averaging double-double) and is awful in PNR and team help. Perimeter player against LA rarely score on 1 on 1. FWIW Opponents are 12 in the league against us in 3pts FG. 10th in assists and 8th on reboudes. That looks like a poor entire team effort, but you only focus on Pau as the worse of all.

Pau hasn't been great on D, ok, but he's not that bad and you can't blame him for the 2-4 start. Fair criticism is ok, those big words that came every single time Lakers had a bad time but rarely are spoken when Lakers are winning are so old i don't know why i'm speaking about this once again.

Don't put words in my mouth.
I never said Pau was responsible for our 2-4 start, in fact, I said in another thread that Mike Brown was to blame (directly and indirectly) for 90% of our troubles.
I said Pau has been our weakest link, but not the only one playing bad D. Everyone's D has been bad from time to time, in different degrees of course.

"Hasn't been great" is an understatement.

I have mixed feelings about Pau, sometimes he's lazy and slow as a slug, but other times, he can take over a game with all of his skills.

Finwë wrote:

bystander wrote:So, Pau doesn't give any effort (even averaging double-double) and is awful in PNR and team help. Perimeter player against LA rarely score on 1 on 1. FWIW Opponents are 12 in the league against us in 3pts FG. 10th in assists and 8th on reboudes. That looks like a poor entire team effort, but you only focus on Pau as the worse of all.

Pau hasn't been great on D, ok, but he's not that bad and you can't blame him for the 2-4 start. Fair criticism is ok, those big words that came every single time Lakers had a bad time but rarely are spoken when Lakers are winning are so old i don't know why i'm speaking about this once again.

Don't put words in my mouth.
I never said Pau was responsible for our 2-4 start, in fact, I said in another thread that Mike Brown was to blame (directly and indirectly) for 90% of our troubles.
I said Pau has been our weakest link, but not the only one playing bad D. Everyone's D has been bad from time to time, in different degrees of course.

"Hasn't been great" is an understatement.

You think Pau has been the weakest link?

^On defense. Yes. Although Blake isn't too far behind.

revgen wrote:^On defense. Yes. Although Blake isn't too far behind.

Mike Brown was always playing him close to 40 minutes each game, so he had his rests on defense.

revgen wrote:^On defense. Yes. Although Blake isn't too far behind.

thkthebest, what revgen said. Also, our bigs' D is always gonna be more important than our PGs' D, because of their responsabilities. They have to play their men, box out and rebound, provide interior help D, and defend the P&R.
We can always kinda hide the likes of Blake/Morris/Nash, put them on perimeter shooters, but we can't do anything if our bigs don't play solid D.


This scares me:

Dime Update ‏@DimeUpdate
Russell Westbrook is getting into the lane whenever he wants on high pick-and-rolls. Scoring and dishing with ease when he gets there.

if the screener is Pau's man, we're so dead.

I give LA one month to trade Pau now. They'll wait to see him with Nash, but i wouldn't be surprised if they trade him even before.