PAYTON IN, FISHER OUT?OF L.A?

liability?

Postby LakersFan2003 on Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:52 pm

swolswol wrote:AGREE.......IM DONE TRYING TO REASON WITH A CHILD.......WHY ARE SO HEATED ABOUT D FISH?????????IS THAT YOU DERRICK???????WE DIDNT MEAN TO HURT YOUR FEELINGS BUDDY ITS JUST TIME MAN!!!!!!!!!YOU HAVE BECOME A LIABILITY ON DEFENSE.......SORRY DERRICK


I agree and disagree with that statement. Is Derek a liability on defense? In some ways yes. He does draw charges better than anyone in the league however, and can hit the three (almost 60% in the playoffs this year). We won the 2001 NBA Championship with Derek as our starter so I don't think trading him would really benefit us. Next year maybe IF and only IF Pargo develops this year. But at this point, what would Derek Fisher give us in trade value? Not a lot. And if the plan is to develop for the future, then throwing in a #1 pick isn't going to help either since that would defeat the purpose. If we could get someone really good for Derek's salary in a sign and trade, sure if it improved the team let's do it. But keep in mind, Derek makes $3million/year which is a BARGAIN for what he does for us. Consider that Tracy Murray made $3.7million for keeping our benches warm so that is really the caliber of player we're looking at, for the $3million price range.

It's fun to talk about trades like Fisher for Swift, etc etc ... but when you really think about it ... there isn't a whole lot we can get for $3million that Derek doesn't already gives us.

Some food for thought:
Arvydas Sabonis made $7million last year
Erick Dampier made $6.9million last year
Evan Eschmeyer (I know .. who??) made $3 million last year
Lindsey Hunter (been there, done that) made $3million last year
Eric Montross (who!?) made $2.7million last year

So, we're not going to get anyone the quality of an Arvydas Sabonis or Dampier ... but we could get an Evan Eschmeyer. Look at the salaries... I'll take Derek anyday for $3million. If he asks for more, cut him loose, and move on. But thinking realistically ... trading Derek is not a smart move right now for the quality of player we can get for the money.
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Postby SWOL on Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:56 pm

age is the only concern......ideally you would like to play Malone 30 min and Shaq 35 min,remember Karl turns 40 this year......Cook and Slava are the only back ups on the roster.......a name i like is Jason Caffey at the (1 mil vets).......he knows the system (which is important with 4 new faces) and he hustles and plays D

C-Webb :shootc:

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age

Postby LakersFan2003 on Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:03 pm

swolswol wrote:age is the only concern......ideally you would like to play Malone 30 min and Shaq 35 min,remember Karl turns 40 this year......Cook and Slava are the only back ups on the roster.......a name i like is Jason Caffey at the (1 mil vets).......he knows the system (which is important with 4 new faces) and he hustles and plays D

C-Webb :shootc:

Kiss the rings haters


This is precisely what I'm talking about. swolswol, I agree with you in that age is a concern and we need backups. We've already waived Horry, not re-signed Madsen, and not re-signed Samaki. So, we still have an additional $1.5 million to sign somebody (Horry maybe!?).

But what is the point in sitting here talking about Jason Caffey? He makes $5.2 million/year and is signed through 2004-2005. So, who do we give up for a guy who scores something like 7 pts/game, 0.25 blks/game, 0.5 stls/game, and 4 rebounds? You want to give up Derek Fisher, Slava, and a future #1 to pay for this guy's contract?!

Craziness. I think Kobe's story is making everyone nuts.
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Postby SWOL on Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:10 pm

NO there was a either a player or a team option, i read he was a free agent, i believe foxsports.com reported it , ill find the link, i agree at 5.3 he is too expensive but at 1.5 or 1.0 he is a bargain.....the only reason i brought up Fish for Swift is that Swift to only makes 3 mil....thier salaries are compatable, front court is more of a need for us
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Postby SWOL on Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:17 pm

i cant find the link , maybe i was mistaken :bang:
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Postby zetaw00d on Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:27 pm

I would rather have Tyrone Hill instead of Swift!! Ty Hill has more defence then Swift.
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positions

Postby LakersFan2003 on Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:15 pm

I suppose Jason Caffey at $1.5million would be ok, but I don't see him making much more of an impact than Samaki did... his numbers tell the story. As for losing a PG for more frontcourt power... here are my main thoughts.

No matter who we bring in as a backup, we can't afford anyone who can really do much damage. Whether it is Swift or Caffey or even Scott Williams, these are just "better" than our current players (Slava, Brian Cook). However, once you put them up against the best of the best like Duncan, Rasheed, Dirk, KG, Kenyon, etc ... they're still going to lose the battle. So as good as they might be defensively, it still won't stack up when it really matters (playoffs).

So my thinking is, rather than have an average backup C/PF who is going to lose the battle anyway, why not have more perimeter firepower. Think about it ... who do we have right now, than can knock down the open J when Kobe penetrates, or when Malone or Shaq have the ball. If we can get our hands on just one pure shooter with some defensive ability ... we'll have it all. Jon Barry my friends, is the final missing piece (or maybe, an Horry resigning?)
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Postby la21834 on Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:25 pm

when I said deep I meant that we are deeper with the back court than the front court.
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Postby SWOL on Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:04 pm

if we do sign Jon Barry then we are way overloaded at gaurd, and way undermaned at forward

1 Glove / Fish / Pargo
2 Kobe / Barry / Rush
3 Deaven / Fox
4 Mail / Cook?
5 Diesel / Slava?

front court is a priority
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agreed

Postby LakersFan2003 on Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:11 pm

swolswol wrote:if we do sign Jon Barry then we are way overloaded at gaurd, and way undermaned at forward

1 Glove / Fish / Pargo
2 Kobe / Barry / Rush
3 Deaven / Fox
4 Mail / Cook?
5 Diesel / Slava?

front court is a priority


Ok, after looking at it like that ... I agree. We could use more depth all around. However, we originally got into this debate, because the solution was trading Fisher for a frontcourt backup. I don't think this is the answer. We can still sign one more person, and it should be frontcourt. But NOT at the expense of Derek Fisher who currently, is our only real depth at any of our positions.
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Postby zetaw00d on Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:36 pm

swolswol wrote:if we do sign Jon Barry then we are way overloaded at gaurd, and way undermaned at forward

1 Glove / Fish / Pargo
2 Kobe / Barry / Rush
3 Deaven / Fox
4 Mail / Cook?
5 Diesel / Slava?

front court is a priority


Yea it is,... but i think the Lakers can get away with Malone and Shaq!!! Lakers have won 3 rings without an allstar PG and PF!! The Lakers can pick up any PF they want because that guy wont be playing much!!! Also they need another SF or SG for fox on the IR. Kobe can play the 3. I would get pike, he is a good shooter and wants to stay in LA!!!
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Postby SWOL on Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:47 pm

I like your idea of Tyrone Hill or even Jim Jackson (he ran the triangle at Dallas with Clemons).......how much would Piak play if Fish is still here?????
Even Elden the Big Easy....Na i'd rather have Gary Trent he is much tougher (we might as well have the Shaq of the Mac as well)
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Postby lakers frizzo on Fri Jul 11, 2003 1:15 am

r u saying that slava didnt play well in his first year in the triangle? he shot very well i thought and so did pargo i think they are superb backups and remember they started getting hot when they started to fully understand the triangle it was just to late. i think to best serve the team we should pick up williams(any backup for shaq that can rebound would be a huge asset) and pippen this would give us a player we can rotate in with george before fox comes back that can play d and shoot the three and teach the triangle to george so george fullfills his potential a pippen type player.
is shaq satisfied with three titles and continuing to blow up to 400 lbs or will he get the other hunger back and get down to 320 and win three more?? GO LAKERS 2004-06 CHAMPS!!!
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Slava

Postby LakersFan2003 on Fri Jul 11, 2003 10:13 am

lakers frizzo wrote:r u saying that slava didnt play well in his first year in the triangle? he shot very well i thought and so did pargo i think they are superb backups and remember they started getting hot when they started to fully understand the triangle it was just to late. i think to best serve the team we should pick up williams(any backup for shaq that can rebound would be a huge asset) and pippen this would give us a player we can rotate in with george before fox comes back that can play d and shoot the three and teach the triangle to george so george fullfills his potential a pippen type player.


Slava didn't play well and hasn't played well in the triangle. That's why he sees such limited minutes. He shoots very well, but he's an iso type player. He needs to learn to play more in the triangle. He has a "shoot first, pass second" mentality... and when you have one of the most efficient shooters (Shaq) and one of the most prolific scorers on your team, you have to find the 1st and 2nd options before you look to score. Slava, Pargo and Rush are not superb backups, they're decent backups, but not superb. Superb is Van Exel coming off the bench for Nash, or Bobby Jackson coming off the bench for Bibby. It would be nice to pick up two more players, but we can only pick up one, it has to be a veteran (VME of $1.5 million). We need to use it on a big man so that we have true depth at the frontcourt with him and the backcourt in DFish.
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Slava

Postby LakersFan2003 on Fri Jul 11, 2003 10:17 am

For anyone who thinks Slava played well in the triangle, there's an abundance of articles out there, that, like, feel differently. Here's one:

He isn’t consistent, doesn’t understand the triangle and doesn’t play much defense.


http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_3804.shtml

Here's another:

http://www.hoopshype.com/columns/lakers_okelly.htm


http://www.hoopshype.com/columns/lakers_okelly.htm
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Postby Lakers Dynasty 2000 on Fri Jul 11, 2003 10:59 am

He didn't know the triangle well, however, he did score when we needed it in those dark days of the San Antonio series...

Like someone once told me, "You know the Lakers were going to loose that game 6, when Slava Medvedenko was carrying the team.... Come on"
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comebacks

Postby LakersFan2003 on Fri Jul 11, 2003 11:08 am

Lakers Dynasty 2000 wrote:He didn't know the triangle well, however, he did score when we needed it in those dark days of the San Antonio series...

Like someone once told me, "You know the Lakers were going to loose that game 6, when Slava Medvedenko was carrying the team.... Come on"


Ain't that the truth. What got me worried, was toward the end of the season, we were down by like 21 to Memphis, and Kareem Rush and Jannero Pargo brought us back into it. Now THAT is a scary thought for a 3-time defending NBA champ.
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Re: comebacks

Postby shakobe on Fri Jul 11, 2003 5:28 pm

LakersFan2003 wrote:
Lakers Dynasty 2000 wrote:He didn't know the triangle well, however, he did score when we needed it in those dark days of the San Antonio series...

Like someone once told me, "You know the Lakers were going to loose that game 6, when Slava Medvedenko was carrying the team.... Come on"


Ain't that the truth. What got me worried, was toward the end of the season, we were down by like 21 to Memphis, and Kareem Rush and Jannero Pargo brought us back into it. Now THAT is a scary thought for a 3-time defending NBA champ.

I myself am not to high on Medvedenko or Kareem Rush. I would if possible package Rush and Medvedenko to the Hawks for Ratliff then sign Peeler, Jon Barry. or Piatkowski. Rush and Medvedenko just don't convince me I don't see that passion they seem lost in the triangle. Any thoughts if this is doable?
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Postby SWOL on Fri Jul 11, 2003 5:32 pm

wont work Theo makes 8.5 mil Kareem and Slava together make 2.0
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Postby whats golden on Fri Jul 11, 2003 6:01 pm

I agree, package Slav and Rush and lets see what we can get
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Postby LakerFan1972 on Fri Jul 11, 2003 6:45 pm

whats golden wrote:I agree, package Slav and Rush and lets see what we can get


Unfortunately our young talent does not have much trade value ... for now. Our young players like Pargo, Rush, Cook, Walton, and Slava do have talent though rather raw. Phil will now be forced to play and develop these kids. We have let go of Horry, Shaw, Walker and Fox will be on the IR. Unless the Lakers add another vet or two we will have these kids backing up our HOF starting lineup. I am okay with that. These kids can play they just need a chance.

Question: Why is Slava not on the summer league team?
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Postby Coppertop on Fri Jul 11, 2003 6:51 pm

Slavadenko is in Europe for a few months.
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Postby BDG on Fri Jul 11, 2003 9:00 pm

Why? Vacation? Visiting fam?
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Slava laughed at the suggestion his skills might be affected by the down time. "Are you kidding?" he said. "Basketball is like ball. It's all a circle."

BEST VIDEO EVER ... AND AND THE SECOND BEST.
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Postby shakobe on Sat Jul 12, 2003 7:17 am

LakerFan1972 wrote:
whats golden wrote:I agree, package Slav and Rush and lets see what we can get


Unfortunately our young talent does not have much trade value ... for now. Our young players like Pargo, Rush, Cook, Walton, and Slava do have talent though rather raw. Phil will now be forced to play and develop these kids. We have let go of Horry, Shaw, Walker and Fox will be on the IR. Unless the Lakers add another vet or two we will have these kids backing up our HOF starting lineup. I am okay with that. These kids can play they just need a chance.

Question: Why is Slava not on the summer league team?

I would at least trade Slava. I think he's a shoot first pass second player and with this team he can't do that b/c we have 2 now 4 palyers who should be options before Slava. Also the tiangle is not condusive to Slava'g game he's more of a one on one player. He also needs to learn how to play "D". Slava to me would do better on another team.
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Postby LakerFan1972 on Sat Jul 12, 2003 9:35 am

I am sure that the Lakers are getting a little tired of Slava lack of commitment to improve himself. He should be in the summer league learning the triangle. Sounds like Parge and Rush are really benefiting from the experience. I don't have problem getting rid of Slava is there is a better alternative.
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