Princeton Offense Thoughts

Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby trodgers on Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:02 am

I have to say that I love some of the Lakers' personnel for the Princeton Offense. Skip to the bold at the end for my question :)

Starters
Nash
Gasol
Kobe

Bench
Blake
McRoberts
Jamison

There are a few other players I think will be adequate: MWP, Morris (yes, really), and Eyenga.

I think the biggest questions I have are the following:
1. Backup SG - I don't trust any of our Guards outside Nash, Kobe, and Blake to play well in this set. I think Blake is perfect for it, but then we don't have depth. Goudelock isn't a good decision-maker, is undersized, and can't pass. Morris might be able to do it, but he's going to have a lot of work to do. It would be a big jump in minutes for him.

2. Center - Hill has great activity, but he's a TERRIBLE decison-maker. Bynum struggled with the double. One thing the motion offense is designed to do is make teams have to react to the ball when it goes to the big on the block. If they move to double, Bynum can make a pass; if they stick with their men, Bynum has a 1 on 1. But the key here is that there is this moment of reading and reacting. Unlike in whatever offense we ran last year, Bynum will have that split second to see what's going on before there is a double on him. The question is whether this is going to allow him enough time to make a better decision than he did last year. In reality, this is my biggest concern. I think our personnel is excellent for the Princeton Offense (Barnes would be great in it, too); but what about Bynum? Is this a help for him? Is it enough? Will he benefit?
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby jimbo327 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:44 am

We don't have Adelman as the head coach. Mike Brown's head will literally explode if asked to run any offensive scheme that is not give it to your best player and let him go.

I'm sure the guards will have no problem with the Princeton offense. But why even talk about it when we don't have the coach that can run it. The thing we need is to have to bring in an "assistant" to teach Mike Brown how to run it properly. This is the same thing I said about the triangle and Mike Brown, not going to work.

Any Bynum is a below average passer in my opinion.

I'm not worried about the players running the Princeton offense, they ran the Triangle, so it's not a question of the players. It's a question of the coaching. That is where we are the weakest.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby trodgers on Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:57 am

We do have an assistant to teach Mike Brown though...that's the point.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby Kingsama on Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:17 am

trodgers wrote:We do have an assistant to teach Mike Brown though...that's the point.


Agreed, I think that Jordan could function in a similar way to Tex. Not that the two are comparable in the grand scheme, but Jordan could easily become the XO guy that puts offense together.

With that being said, I think the structure of the offense will greatly improve the Lakers chances at winning a ring. The roster that is is place has the pieces to make it work, and guys like Nash and Pau should shine in it. The big concern really is Bynum. He has really struggled to pass out of doubles, hopefully he can adjust as the cutting and movement in this offense could really make his life so much easier. we will see, perhaps he won't even be here for it.

All in all some offense consistency from a coaching stand point is MUCH needed.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby Murdock on Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:33 am

I still think that Eddie should be HC and Brown AC ... you just can't teach O from AC position ... you have to be active during a game ... it would look stupid if Eddie was running things from AC position :D
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby revgen on Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:41 am

trodgers wrote: I have to say that I love some of the Lakers' personnel for the Princeton Offense. Skip to the bold at the end for my question :)

Starters
Nash
Gasol
Kobe

Bench
Blake
McRoberts
Jamison

There are a few other players I think will be adequate: MWP, Morris (yes, really), and Eyenga.

I think the biggest questions I have are the following:
1. Backup SG - I don't trust any of our Guards outside Nash, Kobe, and Blake to play well in this set. I think Blake is perfect for it, but then we don't have depth. Goudelock isn't a good decision-maker, is undersized, and can't pass. Morris might be able to do it, but he's going to have a lot of work to do. It would be a big jump in minutes for him.


Morris is an awful freelance PG unless he's running a fast break. He needs structure, which he and nobody else had last season. I think it will help him out, but I still don't see him as an NBA ready PG yet. He should have gotten more D-league time last season, but an injury to Blake kept him in the lineup.

trodgers wrote:
2. Center - Hill has great activity, but he's a TERRIBLE decison-maker. Bynum struggled with the double. One thing the motion offense is designed to do is make teams have to react to the ball when it goes to the big on the block. If they move to double, Bynum can make a pass; if they stick with their men, Bynum has a 1 on 1. But the key here is that there is this moment of reading and reacting. Unlike in whatever offense we ran last year, Bynum will have that split second to see what's going on before there is a double on him. The question is whether this is going to allow him enough time to make a better decision than he did last year. In reality, this is my biggest concern. I think our personnel is excellent for the Princeton Offense (Barnes would be great in it, too); but what about Bynum? Is this a help for him? Is it enough? Will he benefit?


Bynum managed to improve his decision-making out of double-teams last season as the season wore on despite playing in an awful offensive scheme where nobody moved and everybody stood around. He averaged 1.4 apg and 2.5 TO's during the regular season. That improved to 1.5 apg and 1.3 TO's during the postseason. If Bynum can improve his passing out of double-teams in a horrible offensive scheme last season, I can only see him getting better playing in the Princeton offense with Nash spreading the floor and teammates moving in a prescribed manner that will make it easier for Bynum to know what to look for.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby Finwë on Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:51 am

Running the princeton offense is another reason why I think Howard > Bynum AS A FIT ON THIS TEAM. He's a better read-and-react player.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:54 am

I think the structure will certainly help Bynum.

Part of the problem he had was the lack of man movement off the ball. Every time the ball went into his hands offensively in the post, everyone else stopped moving and just watched. Even when the double came. Then he's stuck and everyone is standing looking at him. Where is he supposed to throw the ball?

In a structured offense, he will have reads. He's a smart player and if he buys into the system then he'll be fine. Just make the right reads and make the pass when the double comes. A full summer/training camp should make it much easier.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:54 am

Finwë wrote:Running the princeton offense is another reason why I think Howard > Bynum AS A FIT ON THIS TEAM. He's a better read-and-react player.

Well he's had a lot more practice too. I think Bynum can be fine, although I'd still rather have Dwight.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby lakerfan2 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:04 am

Finwë wrote:Running the princeton offense is another reason why I think Howard > Bynum AS A FIT ON THIS TEAM. He's a better read-and-react player.


He was able to read and react better because he was surrounded by shooters. He knew where everyone was.

You look at our offense last year and tell me Howard would not have struggled in the post.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby Finwë on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:09 am

lakerfan2 wrote:
Finwë wrote:Running the princeton offense is another reason why I think Howard > Bynum AS A FIT ON THIS TEAM. He's a better read-and-react player.


He was able to read and react better because he was surrounded by shooters. He knew where everyone was.

You look at our offense last year and tell me Howard would not have struggled in the post.

He would've, but IMO not as bad as Andrew. Objectively observing both on the block you can tell who's the better, quicker, more instinctive passer. It's not Drew. (BTW, as an offensive weapon, I think Drew is better. Not saying he's not.)
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby the_Dude on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:14 am

Bynum will be the key in the offense. Princeton requires quick passes and can fail if the ball stops with any player in the post unless they shoot. He'll either force up a ton of shots or the offense can get stuck. He can figure it out though. Gasol will be great there.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby Kingsama on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:18 am

lakerfan2 wrote:
Finwë wrote:Running the princeton offense is another reason why I think Howard > Bynum AS A FIT ON THIS TEAM. He's a better read-and-react player.


He was able to read and react better because he was surrounded by shooters. He knew where everyone was.

You look at our offense last year and tell me Howard would not have struggled in the post.


Whether their are shooters or not is really irrelevant when we are talking about passing out of the post. Fact is that Bynum really struggles to pass out of the post and how to protect the ball when doubled.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby revgen on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:28 am

Finwë wrote:Running the princeton offense is another reason why I think Howard > Bynum AS A FIT ON THIS TEAM. He's a better read-and-react player.


I'll take Bynum's 1.5 apg and 1.3 TO's last postseason over Dwight's 5.5 TO's and 0.3 apg in the Atlanta series.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby lakerfan2 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:29 am

Kingsama wrote:
lakerfan2 wrote:
Finwë wrote:Running the princeton offense is another reason why I think Howard > Bynum AS A FIT ON THIS TEAM. He's a better read-and-react player.


He was able to read and react better because he was surrounded by shooters. He knew where everyone was.

You look at our offense last year and tell me Howard would not have struggled in the post.


Whether their are shooters or not is really irrelevant when we are talking about passing out of the post. Fact is that Bynum really struggles to pass out of the post and how to protect the ball when doubled.


Are you kidding me? It has ALL the relevancy for passing out of the post.

When the defenders sag on to you because they are not respecting the shooters, you HAVE NO SPACE. The paint is clogged, and the double comes MUCH quicker than when the floor is spaced properly. Anyone who's doubled is going to have trouble passing out of the post. Hell, Dwight averages more turnovers than Bynum, and that's WITH a spread offense.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby Kingsama on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:35 am

lakerfan2 wrote:
Kingsama wrote:
lakerfan2 wrote:
Finwë wrote:Running the princeton offense is another reason why I think Howard > Bynum AS A FIT ON THIS TEAM. He's a better read-and-react player.


He was able to read and react better because he was surrounded by shooters. He knew where everyone was.

You look at our offense last year and tell me Howard would not have struggled in the post.


Whether their are shooters or not is really irrelevant when we are talking about passing out of the post. Fact is that Bynum really struggles to pass out of the post and how to protect the ball when doubled.


Are you kidding me? It has ALL the relevancy for passing out of the post.

When the defenders sag on to you because they are not respecting the shooters, you HAVE NO SPACE. The paint is clogged, and the double comes MUCH quicker than when the floor is spaced properly. Anyone who's doubled is going to have trouble passing out of the post. Hell, Dwight averages more turnovers than Bynum, and that's WITH a spread offense.


wrong all around, having shooters makes it easier, but it wouldn't solve Bynum's problems. Plain and simple he is terrible at protecting the ball when being doubled, AND at passing out of them. He routinely does things like drop the ball below his waste, loses ground, shrinks away, and makes terrible passes. He needs to spend time in practice learning how to deal with doubles. We could have Reggie, Ray, Bird, on this team and it wouldn't matter if he does not know how to pass out of doubles or triples.

as for dwights turnovers, of course he does, he gets way more touches.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby lakerfan2 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:39 am

so...having an offense that helps relieve the double team for you would not help bynum's ability to read an offense and make the correct pass? :man10:
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby Kingsama on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:46 am

lakerfan2 wrote:so...having an offense that helps relieve the double team for you would not help bynum's ability to read an offense and make the correct pass? :man10:


Not if he doesn't have the skill. The double teams are going to come no matter who is out there. Even with great shooters on the floor it really doesn't matter if Bynum struggles to pass out the doubles. Again he makes really poor choices and lacks the skill to do it. Can that be fixed, sure if he wants to work on it.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby Murdock on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:48 am

Bynum over Dwight has some experience in similar offense ... Bynum will do better then Dwight as of right now
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby Punk-101 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:50 am

How does the Princeton offense utilize the PG PnR?

How will the Princeton offense get Pau at PF more involved in closer jumpers, post moves, or strong rolls to the basket while minimizing 18+ft jumpers?
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:53 am

Punk-101 wrote:How does the Princeton offense utilize the PG PnR?

How will the Princeton offense get Pau at PF more involved in closer jumpers, post moves, or strong rolls to the basket while minimizing 18+ft jumpers?

PG PnR I'm not too sure on. I think you could watch some old video if Jason Kidd in the Finals to get a glimpse of it.

As for Pau, as long as he's playing Center he'll be close to the basket, maybe sometimes he'll be open for midrange shots. Think more like the free throw line though instead of the 3 point line.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby Kingsama on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:55 am

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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby Punk-101 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:59 am

LOL sama. Watching that video prompted my questions.
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby John3:16 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:12 pm

Punk-101 wrote:LOL sama. Watching that video prompted my questions.


They can quickly move to the 2 man pick and roll, but overall, it's designed for strict ball movement (via the pass) to find a mismatch. The problem I see is, our 3 point shooting is pretty bad. Nash is a great shooter, but that's it. Even Kobe has fallen off in recent years. Teams will pack the paint and dare us to shoot.

I'm not against moving to the Princeton, because anything and everything is better then last years offense, but we need the passing (we have that) and the outside shooting (lacking big time).
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Re: Princeton Offense Thoughts

Postby Ariza3 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:13 pm

anything too complicated for mike brown will fail. we won't utilize pau properly again this year and focus soley on Nash Kobe & Bynum/Howard. guarenteed.
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