Put the D in D'Antoni

Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby Punk-101 on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:04 pm

From October 21st:

Punk-101 wrote:
Dwight Asking Lakers Not To Gamble On Defense
Oct 21, 2012 12:01 PM EDT


Dwight Howard is the NBA's single most influential defensive player and he is already asking his new teammates on the Los Angeles Lakers to play a certain way on that end of the floor.

“The biggest thing is we don’t have to gamble,” said Howard. “That’s the one thing I told those guys — don’t gamble. We’re solid on defense, we work hard for 24 seconds on defense and then we’re out.

“That’s when you put everybody else in bad predicaments, when you do gamble. But when we’re solid, we have some great defenders on the wing. We have some great defenders on the post. So there’s no need to gamble. We all just have to trust our instincts and play the right way.”



Translation: Kobe, no more roaming free-safety leaving wide open 3pt shooters.
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby Greatest of All Time on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:15 pm

trodgers wrote:^
Last season:
Pace: 90.5 (20th)
Offensive Rating: 106.0 (10th)
Defensive Rating: 104.4 (13th)

This Season
Pace: 93.9 (4th)
ORtg: 108.4 (7th)
DRtg: 105.1 (15th)

Well, looking at the two seasons, I don't know what conclusions you draw. I have some ideas of my own.


I wasn't really trying to compare this season and last season all that much other than maybe question why an old team that's a year older is playing at a higher pace.

My conclusion is that since they're an older team being forced to play at a high pace, they don't have the energy to put the needed effort on defense. I believe they should play like the Knicks, who are built somewhat similarly and are even older, because they have a higher offensive rating while playing at a slower pace. The Knicks prove you don't need to be running up and down the court jacking up shots to have a top-ranked offense. I think that because the Knicks play at a slower pace, they have more energy to focus on defense while the Lakers, who play at a higher pace running up and down the court, have less energy for defense.

While the Lakers have a relatively good offense, it's not an all-time great offense with enough firepower to consistently outscore everyone like those Phoenix Suns teams. It reminds me more of previous Warriors teams where they ran and scored a lot and it was fun to watch but not great enough to overcome mediocre/poor defense.
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby trodgers on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:18 pm

But the numbers shown don't support those claims. What to do? What to do?
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby The Rock on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:25 pm

We're just inconsistent. Up and down play on Defense.
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby DarthRekal on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:27 pm

The Rock wrote:We're just inconsistent. Up and down play on Defense.

LAY THE SMACK DOWN ON THEIR CANDY ARSES :man2:
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby Greatest of All Time on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:30 pm

trodgers wrote:But the numbers shown don't support those claims. What to do? What to do?


How do they not support it? How do you think the Knicks would look on defense running up and down the court jacking up shots? I'd imagine they' be just as inconsistent as these Lakers.
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby The Rock on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:30 pm

:man10:

Id rather be inconsistent than incompetent, remember last year we didnt score 100 in 13 straight games lol
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby hollywood swinger on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:33 pm

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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby nduri on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:46 pm

Kobe does need to step up his defense even if it means toning down his offense. Fewer points and more assists, as he is probably the best at getting the offense moving from the point of a facilitator (although Duhon is putting up respectable numbers lately) Kobe still draws more attention. I think he'd be more effective for this particular team looking for the SCORE as opposed to looking for the shot...creating easy looks for his teammates and getting them consistent touches in order for them to develop a rhythm. He's still going to have his opportunities and much easier ones at that. Not that Kobe is the only issue, but he is the one capable of leading the rest of the team. Metta will play defense up to his ability, so he's pretty much as close to a constant as we have. Dwight will play aggressive defense if he knows that when he leaves his man, someone has him covered. Even Jamison has shown the desire to play D in stretches as well as a number of the bench players. From the small sample size that I've seen so far, the team seems to match Kobe's energy on the floor so when he gets frustrated, they follow.
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby trodgers on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:47 pm

Greatest of All Time wrote:
trodgers wrote:But the numbers shown don't support those claims. What to do? What to do?


How do they not support it?

The numbers suggest four things. First, we're playing at a faster pace than last year.
Second, our offense is better than last year.
Third, our defense is worse than last year.
Fourth, our offense has increased more than our defense has decreased.

Those points combine to suggest that we should be a better team this year than last year. Now, if those numbers support anything about such season-to-season comparisons, it's that we're better than we were last year. Maybe they don't support any conclusions, but if they do, they're certainly not what you suggested.

How do you think the Knicks would look on defense running up and down the court jacking up shots? I'd imagine they' be just as inconsistent as these Lakers.

Inconsistency doesn't appear in those stats. And I have no idea what the Knicks would look like if they did that. Also, I don't see what it matters. We're not the Knicks. We have different players.
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby ElginTheGreat on Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:09 pm

lakerswiz wrote:That title.
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby trodgers on Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:39 pm

I don't follow.
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby trodgers on Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:55 pm

^ Ahh... :man10: So maybe don't do that!
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby revgen on Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:59 pm

lakerfan2 wrote:There's too much helping where there is no help needed.

Kobe, Duhon, Metta all leave their shooters to try to do something in the paint. This causes the team to go into a scramble rotation mode and leaves shooters wide open.

Don't know how many times they have to get rained on to learn, DWIGHT IS THERE TO PROTECT THE PAINT. If he's going to help, someone box out his man. Ugh, it's not that hard.


The only perimeter guys I've seen who have the speed to help and recover effectively are Meeks, Morris, and Ebanks.
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby JGC on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:06 pm

trodgers wrote:
Greatest of All Time wrote:
trodgers wrote:But the numbers shown don't support those claims. What to do? What to do?


How do they not support it?

The numbers suggest four things. First, we're playing at a faster pace than last year.
Second, our offense is better than last year.
Third, our defense is worse than last year.
Fourth, our offense has increased more than our defense has decreased.

Those points combine to suggest that we should be a better team this year than last year. Now, if those numbers support anything about such season-to-season comparisons, it's that we're better than we were last year. Maybe they don't support any conclusions, but if they do, they're certainly not what you suggested.

How do you think the Knicks would look on defense running up and down the court jacking up shots? I'd imagine they' be just as inconsistent as these Lakers.

Inconsistency doesn't appear in those stats. And I have no idea what the Knicks would look like if they did that. Also, I don't see what it matters. We're not the Knicks. We have different players.


I don't know where you got those numbers but assuming those are in fact the numbers... wouldn't it be unfair to compare last year's full season stats with this years? I would venture to guess that our numbers now are slightly inflated considering we've had a very favorable schedule in terms of opponents, and, we've played a vast majority of our games at home. Not saying your numbers are wrong, but just wondering out loud if the reason they appear to be better is because the average conditions under which we've played this year have been more favorable than the average condition under which last year's full season numbers were obtained.
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby trodgers on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:15 pm

^ Honestly, I have no idea. Playing at home might have an impact on those numbers (and it might be positive). Playing a fuller season might, too (and it could be positive or negative). I honestly don't know that the numbers suggest anything (I said that in my post), but if they do suggest anything, it seems to be what I posted.
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby Armani on Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:44 pm

Just looking at some numbers here...

Currently, the Lakers are 7th in SRS, for what it's worth. It means we should be the 7th best team in the league, going by strength of schedule and average point differential. It's weird... we're losing a lot more than we should be. Our record is a lot worse than the 7th best team in the league would be.

Looking at trudgers numbers from b-ref.com, we're 7th in offensive rating and 15th in defensive rating... but all Nash led Suns teams were #1 or #2 in offense and average/below average on D. If we're to win, that needs to happen... we have to be number 1. It doesn't seem like the D will come to us under D'Antoni... this is all up to Dwight Howard's defensive leadership. Here's hoping the O works out, and we're #1 when Nash is back.

On a random note, I am liking the Duhon/Meeks/Kobe/Jamison/Dwight lineup on offense... it's especially beastly when both Jamison and Meeks are clicking at the same time, too.
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby Greatest of All Time on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:53 pm

trodgers wrote:
Greatest of All Time wrote:
trodgers wrote:But the numbers shown don't support those claims. What to do? What to do?


How do they not support it?

The numbers suggest four things. First, we're playing at a faster pace than last year.
Second, our offense is better than last year.
Third, our defense is worse than last year.
Fourth, our offense has increased more than our defense has decreased.

Those points combine to suggest that we should be a better team this year than last year. Now, if those numbers support anything about such season-to-season comparisons, it's that we're better than we were last year. Maybe they don't support any conclusions, but if they do, they're certainly not what you suggested.

How do you think the Knicks would look on defense running up and down the court jacking up shots? I'd imagine they' be just as inconsistent as these Lakers.

Inconsistency doesn't appear in those stats. And I have no idea what the Knicks would look like if they did that. Also, I don't see what it matters. We're not the Knicks. We have different players.


I realize that the numbers shown were for this season's and last season's Lakers teams. I didn't really make my point clear so I'll try to make it more specific. When I said "How do they not support it?" I was referring to a comparison of the Lakers and Knicks' offensive/defensive rating and pace this year. I didn't realize the numbers you were focusing on were the ones Mike Brown posted. To clear up my original point, here are the Lakers and Knicks' offensive/defensive ratings and pace for the 2012-2013 according to basketball-reference:

Knicks:
Off Rtg: 113.2 (2nd of 30)
Def Rtg: 105.1 (16th of 30)
90.7 (24th of 30)

Lakers:
Off Rtg: 108.1 (8th of 30)
Def Rtg: 105.6 (18th of 30)
Pace: 94.1 (4th of 30)

The Knicks, who play at a slower pace, still manage to have the 2nd highest ranked offense in the league. Antoni's offensive philosophy of pushing the pace and maximizing possessions means that the players are focusing most of their energy on offense. Are the Laker' defensive problems simply just a lack of effort or is it because since they're focusing everything on offense, they don't have enough energy to put into defense?

Although they're scoring a lot and making 3s, it's doesn't seem like it's enough to outscore opponents like those mid 2000s Phoenix Suns teams did. Will Steve Nash returning pump the offense to top 3? And will it be enough to outscore most opponents? Maybe, but I don't like the idea of relying on a 39 year old recovering from a fractured leg. I'd have no problem with it if it meant the Lakers win the title this year but I wouldn't bet on it.

I missed most of the game on Thursday. Got home from a Final in the middle of the 1st and saw Carmelo abusing Ron Artest 1vs1. Saw the Lakers inbound the ball, run down the court and jack up a shot. Sometimes it would go in, sometimes it wouldn't. Usually when it went in, the Knicks would answer right back and they'd continue to score when the Lakers missed. I got tired of watching the abuse so I went to sleep.

So my final point is that the Lakers should utilize an offensive philosophy similar to the Knicks. They don't need to maximize possessions to be a potent offensive team. The Knicks' first option is Melo in the post (Lakers have plenty of post players), if not they use variations of the screen roll with off ball movement from several players. Meanwhile D'Antoni's offensive philosophy is for everyone to run down the court, camp at the 3 point line, and wait for Kobe and someone to screen roll at the top and let them "take what the defense gives them".

One analyst even said that the Knicks are basically using D'Antoni's system but with some misdirection stuff added in. Utilizing movement off the ball such as off-ball screens will get players more involved on offense. They also wouldn't have one guy handling the ball 99% of the time spamming the same high screen roll.
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Re: Put the D in D'Antoni

Postby revgen on Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:10 pm

revgen wrote:
lakerfan2 wrote:There's too much helping where there is no help needed.

Kobe, Duhon, Metta all leave their shooters to try to do something in the paint. This causes the team to go into a scramble rotation mode and leaves shooters wide open.

Don't know how many times they have to get rained on to learn, DWIGHT IS THERE TO PROTECT THE PAINT. If he's going to help, someone box out his man. Ugh, it's not that hard.


The only perimeter guys I've seen who have the speed to help and recover effectively are Meeks, Morris, and Ebanks.


Strangely enough, we ran a unit with these 3 guys in the 3rd quarter last night. Defense was pretty good. Transition offense was decent. Half-court offense was gawd awful.
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